Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

[JLB]

So will liars who say they have no sin or are not sinners.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Those who do not both acknowledge and confess their sins, can not be forgiven of their sins.

Those who don't believe Jesus can remove their sin, remain in their sin, and will perish...

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

Who in the world thinks we stop needing Jesus gift?

Perhaps someone who thinks they are not a sinner?

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins...

Yes

We need Jesus every moment of every day.

Yes

Don't you think at some point, we are to be walking in victory over sin?

Yes, but that victory over sin is not due to our efforts. Our effort always falls short.

When does the work of transformation begin to show forth through our lives, and demonstrate to a lost and dying world we have changed?

We don't have to be sinless to demonstrate a changed life. How we address our failings can teach others about our faith. What we don't want to do is present a false facade of self righteousness that demonstrates hypocrisy.

Do you think Paul, lived a lifestyle of sinning, among the Gentiles who he lived with everyday, as he raised up churches among them in their city?

No. There is a difference between promoting a lifestyle of sin verses acknowledging you are not perfect.

What was Paul's sin?

Who knows the sins of a neighbor's heart?

 

[JLB]

Yes, but that victory over sin is not due to our efforts. Our effort always falls short.

Speak for yourself.

Just because your not walking in victory, doesn't mean others aren't.

Sounds like you need to check yourself, whether your in the faith or not.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Who knows the sins of a neighbor's heart

So what are you basing your theory on?

Your life?

Do you think Paul was a liar?

A thief?

An idolater?

A fornicater?


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

You mean, like, claiming fallen believers possibly go to be tortured in hell forever? That kind of love? Excuse me if I find that a bit of a disingenuous claim.

John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Smaller
I'm just seeing this thread.
And you may have already answered this - just going thru.

What does John 13:34-35 have to do with people possibly going to hell?

THAT YE "ARE" my disciples. Present tense - we have to be disciples.

And what about John 3.16
That whoever BELIEVES should not perish.

What does "perish" mean to you?

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

The understanding I've received from the Word is this:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

If you note this, it is identical to the principle of Mark 4:15. There are TWO parties in one lump of flesh. In Mark 4:15, this would be the person and Satan who enters their hearts to do his stuff. This same/identical principal is shown with Paul above and in other places with Paul.

Only ONE of the parties in the lump shall be saved. The other, damned to eternal hell.

You can cite all the torment and torture upon the wrong party all the day long, and I will look to the other party every time and accept those facts as true and NOT detrimental to the believers.

Get accurate accounting and the books balance just FINE.

God has set some blockades in the way however. No liar will understand His Word, even though it is right in front of their eyes.

Smaller,
Paul's thorn in the flesh is some kind of physical ailment which God would not take away. I learned this in a good church about 30 years ago and have since then read different ideas and theologians seem to be in agreement on this.

Then you like to quote Mark 4:15.
You understand it to mean that somehow satan has entered into a person who heard the word and has taken the word away. He's entered into their heart. Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you.
I've never heard or read of Mark 4:15 being explained this way.

Mark 4:15 says that the Word was sown. The people hear it and right away (before it gets a chance to set in) satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them.

Satan doesn't enter into them to take the word away, he just takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. By instilling doubt in them, or unbelief in the Word. He doesn't become a part of "the lump." He doesn't need to get into a person to convince them of something - he does a very good job of this from the exterior, from the mind. The Holy Spirit could or could not indwell in a person. The results are noticeable and the fruits are noticeable. The good heart, the good intentions. If satan enters into the person and is indwelling, that is possession. Which is different, even, from obsession. There are different "ions", I don't know if i remember them all. Repression, depression, oppression, obsession, possession. Did you ever do a study on this? I can't remember it well, but I had learned that one leads to the next - because we make a "way" for it to happen.

I checked Young's Literal Translation, Here's exactly what it says:

"And these are they by the way where the word is sown; and whenever they may hear, immediately commeth the Adversary, and he taketh away the word that hath been sown in their hearts."

Could you please explain how you understand Mark 4:15?

Wondering

I'm sorry Smaller. JLB says:
By quoting a scripture reference, with no scripture, and making a :"vague" statement, your post's are growing more and more unintelligible, as no one knows what your point is.

Please post the actual scripture and make a reference to what the words of the scripture teach.

Yes. I'm confused too. Sometimes I can't correlate the scripture you use to what you're saying...

 

[GodsGrace]

1 John 3:8 shows the devil is involved with sin. The devil is NOT forgiven no matter what rituals are employed.

Ah, so that is why you count the sin of unbelief to blinded believers who have the sin of unbelief?

Won't apply to the devil or his messengers.

True. We as believers are NOT the devil. That is why John makes the seemingly odd statements here for examples:

1 John 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

John knew where to put the hammer down. On the real perp. Any reader who does not have the other party on the table with their own sin is going to have a very hard time seeing properly. And they will invariably fall into all kinds of nonsense positions.

In the first sentence you say the devil is not forgiven no matter what rituals are employed.
What does this mean?
When is the devil ever forgiven? This is a new concept to me.
What do you mean by this??

Wondering
Just saw 1 John 3:8
Good. One who sins is of the devil. Okay. One is either of God or of satan. If one sins and is not born again, he is of the devil - he's a slave to satan - he's following satan, albeit he may not even know it. Once we're saved, we're of God. We may still sin (as we will) but we are not OF satan - we are OF God, but will make mistakes because we're still human and will fall to temptation every now and then - but OUR BEING is not that of committing sins all the time.
And when we do, Jesus will cover for us...

 

[GodsGrace]

I might be wrong but this seems to contradict much of what you've been saying until now. How do you reconcile what you just wrote with 1 John 1:8?

WIP
Regarding 1 John 1:8 I think JLB is trying to delineate between being a sinner and sinning.

Of course if we say we have not sinned we're lying because everyone sins.
Does this mean we're a sinner?

Now, oddly enough, I THINK I understand Smaller's position and I'm pretty sure I understand JLB's position.

Smaller is going to the sin nature. We have this sin nature ingrained in us - it's part of our make-up. We're born with it and it stays with us forever or we'd really never sin. Satan uses this sin nature to tempt and to convince us and this makes us sin - when we are convinced or go through with the temptation. So in this sense, we're sinners and in need of salvation and we remain "sinners" because the sin nature is under control and has no dominion but it does not die. This is why Paul says we should persevere till the end.
Colossians 1:23 Hebrews 10:38 and many more

What JLB is saying is that once we're born again our very nature changes. It is now indwelt with the Holy Spirit. We are no longer sinners by nature. We'll still sin, but our nature is to be in the likeness of God, seeking perfection and being children of God. If we're children of God, how could we be "sinners"?
Hebrews 10:26
Romans 8.5
1 John 3:1-3

So John is saying in 1 John 1:8 that we can't claim to be without sin.
Then he says in 1 John 3:1.3 that we are children of God.
In 1 John 3:6 he says that no one who knows Jesus will keep on sinning
And in 1 John 3:8 he says that who does what is evil is of the devil

Yes. There is much reconciling to do. What we do know for sure:
We sin
We are not to sin
Satan causes sin
We are children of God

Wondering

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

If salvation can be lost, or just just as bad, never had but sought after by a person; if in either sitution it is true, then what hope do we have?

 

[smaller]

In the first sentence you say the devil is not forgiven no matter what rituals are employed.
What does this mean?
When is the devil ever forgiven? This is a new concept to me.
What do you mean by this??

It means Satanic salvation is a blatant heresy. We know from Matt. 25 and from other scriptures that the devil and his messengers are going to the flames.

Wondering
Just saw 1 John 3:8
Good. One who sins is of the devil. Okay. One is either of God or of satan. If one sins and is not born again, he is of the devil - he's a slave to satan - he's following satan, albeit he may not even know it. Once we're saved, we're of God. We may still sin (as we will) but we are not OF satan - we are OF God, but will make mistakes because we're still human and will fall to temptation every

Indeed. And the fact of 1 John 3:8 is still a hard fact about "our sins and temptations" as well.

now and then - but OUR BEING is not that of committing sins all the time.
And when we do, Jesus will cover for us...

I would consider that a common misconception. We are never sinless in the flesh. Sin indwells our flesh. Romans 7:17-21. Evil is present with us. Romans 7:21. Our flesh still serves the law of sin. Romans 7:25. Our flesh is contrary to the spirit because of these conditions of fact. Gal. 4:14, Gal. 5:17.

So I would ask you or any other poster if it's remotely conceivable that a believer is entirely forgiven and the tempter, the devil who is involved with every sin is never forgiven. We can confess and do any amounts of exercises and a couple facts are still in force. One is that we are and remain sinners. Such sin is demonic in nature and by no exercises whatsoever is the devil going to be getting off the hook, now or in the future.

This solves the dilemma of the believer being saved or not. Yes, the believer is ROCK SOLID saved, but that does not account for the "whole equation." The above does. Judgment remains in place.

 

[smaller]

Smaller,
Paul's thorn in the flesh is some kind of physical ailment which God would not take away. I learned this in a good church about 30 years ago and have since then read different ideas and theologians seem to be in agreement on this.

No, it's not. Paul says flat out that a messenger of Satan was in his flesh. Satan and his messengers are specific evil entities. Wicked/evil anti-Christ spirits in the flesh. Not physical ailments. Paul also said that evil was present with him and that temptation was in his flesh. Is it remotely conceivable to you or any that the messenger of Satan is that evil tempter? I would think that is glaringly obvious. And it is in direct alignment with Mark 4:15 as well.

Then you like to quote Mark 4:15.
You understand it to mean that somehow satan has entered into a person who heard the word and has taken the word away. He's entered into their heart. Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you.
I've never heard or read of Mark 4:15 being explained this way.

Again I don't know how this could be made more obvious. Yes, the tempter DOES enter the heart to steal, to tempt, the deceive and ultimately to destroy the flesh itself. How anyone can miss these facts does speak to the real blindness imposed by the tempter.

Mark 4:15 says that the Word was sown. The people hear it and right away (before it gets a chance to set in) satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them.

There are huge numbers of examples of Satan or devils being in man and speaking from man in the Gospels. And Jesus dealing with them in various ways in man. I don't know how anyone could miss this fact, really, unless they themselves are blinded by same. Satan speaking from Peter for example. Or Satan entering Judas. Or the man in whom dwelt a LEGION of devils. It's not like Mark 4:15 is not confirmed. It's openly confirmed multiple times.

Satan doesn't enter into them to take the word away,

Wrong. When Satan spoke from Peter's lips Satan was in the flesh/heart of Peter to do so. And if we pay closer attention Peter confirms Mark 4:15.

he just takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. By instilling doubt in them, or unbelief in the Word. He doesn't become a part of "the lump."

Jesus:

Luke 11:20
But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

I really don't know how anyone could manage to read the Gospels and NOT see the overlap between the devil and his messengers and mankind quite frankly. A reader would have to be nearly blind to the obvious to miss it.

Scripture also teaches us that every person who does not believe is blinded by the god of this world IN their mind. 2 Cor. 4:4. It also teaches us that we ourselves prior to belief walked according to the power of the prince of the air, the spirit of disobedience. Eph. 2:2.

Pauls directive from Jesus was exactly this: To turn people from the power of SATAN unto God. Acts 26:18.

 

[smaller]

We don't have to be sinless to demonstrate a changed life. How we address our failings can teach others about our faith. What we don't want to do is present a false facade of self righteousness that demonstrates hypocrisy.

Bravo! You cited, quite accurately earlier, Luke 18 and the distinction between a "law keeping Pharisee" who thought he was "not like other men" and the man who was a sinner who spoke honestly before God, the later being justified.

Lying hypocrisy about NOT being sinners Jesus hated then and hates now. I would even equate these kinds of claims to the demonic influences that are rampant in the churches on this subject. Lying hypocrisy is sin and sin is of the devil. 1 John 3:8. The churches have fallen quite far from "Truth" on the matters of being sinners and instead the pews are filled with lying hypocrisy. Just like the pharisee who was not like other men.

Paul tells us clearly in Romans 3:9 that we are NOT better than anyone else when it comes to being under sin.

 

[smaller]

Those who do not both acknowledge and confess their sins, can not be forgiven of their sins.

And you have merely turned confession into a law, with penalties of damnation RATHER than the Cross of Christ upon which He died, which took away the accounting of sin to the believers. 2 Cor. 5:19.

Ephesians 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Nobody gets to "add their work" to this matter. It is done and settled for believers.

Taking "confession" and turning it into a law whereby believers are somehow made "sinless" is not a promise of the Gospel. And then using that same as a LAW to condemn other believers for their sins only adds fuel to the fire, as obviously forgiveness of others without such rituals and exercises doesn't exist in the claimants.

 

[smaller]

In the first sentence you say the devil is not forgiven no matter what rituals are employed.
What does this mean?
When is the devil ever forgiven? This is a new concept to me.
What do you mean by this??

Wondering
Just saw 1 John 3:8
Good. One who sins is of the devil. Okay. One is either of God or of satan. If one sins and is not born again, he is of the devil - he's a slave to satan - he's following satan, albeit he may not even know it. Once we're saved, we're of God. We may still sin (as we will) but we are not OF satan - we are OF God, but will make mistakes because we're still human and will fall to temptation every now and then - but OUR BEING is not that of committing sins all the time.
And when we do, Jesus will cover for us...

See my post #173 in this thread for clarifications.

No one, no not one, becomes sinless in the flesh after any religious rituals or any other "methods" they think they employ to become sinless. The foundation of the Gospel rests on the fact of eventual deliverance from this vile body in which dwells sin and evil, which is demonic. Phil. 3:21, Gal. 4:14, Gal. 5:17, 1 John 3:8

Scripture has concluded ALL are under sin. That conclusion doesn't change for anyone who is alive in the flesh. Gal. 3:22

 

[JLB]

And you have merely turned confession into a law, with penalties of damnation RATHER than the Cross of Christ upon which He died, which took away the accounting of sin to the believers. 2 Cor. 5:19.

Ephesians 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Nobody gets to "add their work" to this matter. It is done and settled for believers.

Taking "confession" and turning it into a law whereby believers are somehow made "sinless" is not a promise of the Gospel. And then using that same as a LAW to condemn other believers for their sins only adds fuel to the fire, as obviously forgiveness of others without such rituals and exercises doesn't exist in the claimants.

Faith expresses itself through words.

The obedient action of faith is to confess with your mouth.

6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’”(that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:6-10


...with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

...confession is made unto salvation.


Those who don't believe Jesus is Lord, YHWH, also don't confess Jesus as Lord, YHWH.


JLB

 

[JLB]

No one, no not one, becomes sinless in the flesh

Agreed.

We will have a sinless, immortal body after the resurrection.

Sin remains in our flesh.

Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
Romans 7:20

Not the devil in our flesh, but sin.


JLB

 

[JLB]

If salvation can be lost, or just just as bad, never had but sought after by a person; if in either sitution it is true, then what hope do we have?

Our hope and faith is in Christ.

His Life and Spirit working in us to empower us to exercise dominion over the sin in our flesh, and the devil who attacks us and our families.

Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?

God wants to fill you with His Spirit, and for you to continue to be filled with His Spirit.

Amen.


JLB

 

[stovebolts]

At the judgement seat, Pharaoh stands before The Lord Jesus, and The Lord says to him:

I don't hold against you these transgressions for which I hardened your heart, even though I foresaw you would indeed not let my people go, when I sent my servant Moses to demonstrate my power before you.

I foresaw that you would have indeed let them go, after the frogs came up from the river, however I had to harden your heart to the point you would not let my people go even until I sent the plague to take all the firstborn sons in Egypt.

So now, because I hardened your heart, I can have mercy on you for the entire dealings I had with you and your nation.



Now... lets talk about the rest of your life....




22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Romans 9:22-24



JLB

I like that.... We know that it was Pharaoh who first hardened his own heart, and we can see the result. Pharaoh himself, not knowing God's plan had experienced the loss of his own child and then shortly afterwards, lost his own life while in a state of anger, guilt and I suspect rage. When I die, I want to die peacefully surrounded by those I love and not chasing after my own hurts.

Many times in scripture, and I know you'll dig them out, but we are taught to guard against that bitter root that can sprout up in our own lives. We are also taught not to harden our own hearts. Yes, the Old Testament is certainly a schoolmaster...

Thank you for your inspiring view. I have often look at it with a similar view.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Our hope and faith is in Christ.

His Life and Spirit working in us to empower us to exercise dominion over the sin in our flesh, and the devil who attacks us and our families.

Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?

God wants to fill you with His Spirit, and for you to continue to be filled with His Spirit.

Amen.


JLB

Maybe I have this wrong. But there are several areas of concern.

The first is if salvation can be lost. Then people who are weak and fall into sin's tempting and persuasion are at the mercy of God's timing. Even if they come back to God again and again, ongoingly, they are just as easily swept away by sin and the devil. Their hope can only be if they die at a time when they are saved but before they sin again.

The second is if salvation has the visible change in us to never sin again. Then anyone, who even though they strive for God, Love Jesus, have faith and follow Him; if they still sin they are not saved and never were. Again to anyone who has a sin or several that keep a hold on them. They hope on God, maybe one day free of their bondage to the sins they struggle with. But as long as they see the sin in themselves they have no hope in being saved.

The third area of concern is knowing you have the Holy Spirit. When it comes to what's inside of us, each of us trusts in their own rationelle. Some even think that once they became Christian, that their thoughts were God's. Or certain thoughts they felt strongly about were from God. Even if there is another way to discern what your thoughts are, and what is from the Holy Spirit, could you or anyone else tell me how to discern what is mine, and what is from God? No, I don't think anyone is able to help what's in another person's mind and their heart. So how can anyone who sees their own sins have confidance they ever had the Holy Spirit. The other aspect is not just your sins, but where you see God in your life. With answered prayers and with the peace that stills even a depression or a rage the person knows God and has felt His presence. So the question comes from those experiences if the person has the Holy Spirit or not, and they might not be sure.

To answer your question did I receive the Holy Spirit. I hope so, but I don't know.

 

[JLB]

Maybe I have this wrong. But there are several areas of concern.

The first is if salvation can be lost. Then people who are weak and fall into sin's tempting and persuasion are at the mercy of God's timing. Even if they come back to God again and again, ongoingly, they are just as easily swept away by sin and the devil. Their hope can only be if they die at a time when they are saved but before they sin again.

I would say if a person is born again, and continually struggles with sin, then they have not received the Holy Spirit, which comes after a person is born again. This is a result of bad teaching.

Secondly, a new baby Christian is not held as accountable, as a person who has been born again for 20 years.

The second is if salvation has the visible change in us to never sin again. Then anyone, who even though they strive for God, Love Jesus, have faith and follow Him; if they still sin they are not saved and never were. Again to anyone who has a sin or several that keep a hold on them. They hope on God, maybe one day free of their bondage to the sins they struggle with. But as long as they see the sin in themselves they have no hope in being saved.

If the person is seeking God, and striving to do their part, then they will confess their sins, and be right with God.



JLB