Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

[JLB]

Every last jot and tittle of the Word applies to every last one of us, and is meant for LIFE, which will be the outcome.

Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4

The moment anyone says otherwise, they have been stolen from, internally.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

Those who sin continually, thereby practicing the works of the flesh, will not inherit the kingdom of God.



JLB

 

[smaller]

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

Those who sin continually, thereby practicing the works of the flesh, will not inherit the kingdom of God.

JLB

See previous example of 2 Cor. 12:7 for the party that will not "inherit."

 

[smaller]

By quoting a scripture reference, with no scripture, and making a :"vague" statement, your post's are growing more and more unintelligible, as no one knows what your point is.

Your claim appears to be that your sin either doesn't exist or isn't connected or associated with the devil. I reject any notions where believers say they are not sinners or that their sin isn't of the devil because it's not true or truthful to the scriptures. 1 John 1:8/1 John 3:8 among others, like Mark 4:15 or all the seed parables.

We are only forgiven if we are in Christ, and we confess our sins to Him.

I don't accept any "rotating Christ" either. In one day, out the next, back in upon completion of some satisfactory rituals, the out again, rinse and repeat and rotate rotate rotate. To me this is simply a waffle faith. Waffle in, waffle out.

People that practice a lifestyle of sinful behavior, with no repentance or confession of wrong doing, and continue in a sinful lifestyle will not be saved, and will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Nobody stops being a sinner. So the notion of lifestyle equating to sinlessness is untrue and absurd. When sin runs it's full course to external deed, it serves to show MORE of a slave. But those who do not are not any less the sinner.

What you have tried to teach is the person will be saved, and the devil won't be saved.

Obviously there are two parties involved. I have no use to condemn anyone who has called upon Jesus to save them as Jesus does not allow that. I can look at the other party if I need to find judgments.

This is not found in scripture as I have shown you from your "Mark 4:15" reference.

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12

JLB

Not letting sin reign does NOT mean it's not there or that it's NOT of the devil. So again, get the accounting into reality and we'll see just fine.

 

[JLB]

I don't accept any "rotating Christ" either. In one day, out the next, back in upon completion of some satisfactory rituals, the out again, rinse and repeat and rotate rotate rotate. To me this is simply a waffle faith. Waffle in, waffle out.

It doesn't matter what you or I accept, it matters what the word says.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:8-10

To be forgiven our sins we need to confess our sins.

If we do not forgive others, neither will we be forgiven our sins.

This life is a journey, and those who endure to the end will be saved.

We never know what tomorrow will bring, but we live today serving, believing and trusting in Christ and His word to us, knowing we have power over the devil, and have been given all things that pertain to life and godliness.

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18

If we are seeking Him, to walk with Him, His Presence and Power and Grace will keep us.

If we however, have been taught and believe we can sin and do whatever we want to, and disregard the warnings about this, then we ourselves could wind up disconnected from the Vine, and be gathered up and throw into the fire.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:5-6

Let's be found to be abiding in Him, and bearing fruit.

Let's also take heed to His warning that is just as true.


JLB

 

[smaller]

It doesn't matter what you or I accept, it matters what the word says.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:8-10

To be forgiven our sins we need to confess our sins.

1 John 3:8 shows the devil is involved with sin. The devil is NOT forgiven no matter what rituals are employed.

If we do not forgive others, neither will we be forgiven our sins.

Ah, so that is why you count the sin of unbelief to blinded believers who have the sin of unbelief?

This life is a journey, and those who endure to the end will be saved.

Won't apply to the devil or his messengers.

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18

True. We as believers are NOT the devil. That is why John makes the seemingly odd statements here for examples:

1 John 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

John knew where to put the hammer down. On the real perp. Any reader who does not have the other party on the table with their own sin is going to have a very hard time seeing properly. And they will invariably fall into all kinds of nonsense positions.

 

[JLB]

1 John 3:8 shows the devil is involved with sin. The devil is NOT forgiven no matter what rituals are employed.

He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8

The person who sins, is of the devil.

Not sin is of the devil, the person who sins, is of the devil.

Ah, so that is why you count the sin of unbelief to blinded believers who have the sin of unbelief?

No such thing as an "unbelieving" believer.

True. We as believers are NOT the devil. That is why John makes the seemingly odd statements here for examples:

1 John 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

John knew where to put the hammer down. On the real perp. Any reader who does not have the other party on the table with their own sin is going to have a very hard time seeing properly. And they will invariably fall into all kinds of nonsense positions.

The person who has believed and forgiven of their sins, and is in Christ, then later, is removed from Christ, and is thrown into the fire and burned in not saved.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


You "theory" that it is the devil in believers that are thrown into the fire, while the people themselves who turn to a lifestyle of immorality, and yet saved, is not found in the bible.


JLB

 

[smaller]

He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8

The person who sins, is of the devil.

Sin is of the devil and sin indwells the flesh. There is no getting around this. Romans 7:17-21

Not sin is of the devil

Then John isn't telling the truth. I'll take John's statement exactly as stated in 1 John 3:8. Some versions have twerked it from the KJV, but I think the KJV is reliable enough on the matters

No such thing as an "unbelieving" believer.

You may have forgotten a simple principle of faith. That when we call upon Jesus to save us, WE DIED and were joined to Him. Unbelief is a sin, and as such, demonic. Yes, the flesh can and always is blinded by the operations that are "in it" and that is why it is against The Spirit and The Spirit against IT. Gal. 5:17.

There is no use trying to damn any believer because technically they no longer exist. They were seated with Christ the moment Christ enters our hearts by faith, and they DIED.

Some unfortunately are into chasing dead people around, to condemn them, when the fact is we were already dead in our sins to begin with, before Christ came.

The person who has believed and forgiven of their sins, and is in Christ, then later, is removed from Christ, and is thrown into the fire and burned in not saved.

All right out of your imaginations. There is not one single statement in the entirety of the B-I-B-L-E that says any named believer or even a named fallen believer will be in permanent hell or the Lake of Fire. No, not one single named example. Yet here you think it's clear as a bell when it doesn't even exist as a single named example.

 

[mutzrein]

I'd like to test the water on the subject of salvation since for me it is key to understanding what salvation is, and therefore whether or not, it is possible to lose it. Since Jesus said that no one can see or enter the kingdom of heaven unless they are born again, a notion that was heretofore unheard prior to Christ, and for good reason, since the Spirit had not been given, what do we say about the 'salvation' of those who lived and died prior to Christ?

 

[Nathanael Chong]

I've thought of this difficult subject for quite some time. Of course, I may have missed some things and made of mistakes, but here is just what I currently think of the matter.

I don't know if it is possible for a true Christian to lose salvation, but I have concluded that a true believer would not leave his faith. If he has truly received new life and experienced a real relationship with God, I think he would not turn his back even in trying times. I also think that those who "left their faith" never really had a real relationship with God in the first place.
As for the possibility of losing salvation, there are many who say it's impossible, as it would be logically impossible to "reverse the new birth."

Just my thoughts. I can't say anything ultimately conclusive.

 

[JLB]

Sin is of the devil and sin indwells the flesh. There is no getting around this. Romans 7:17-21

Then John isn't telling the truth. I'll take John's statement exactly as stated in 1 John 3:8. Some versions have twerked it from the KJV, but I think the KJV is reliable enough on the matters

He who sins is of the devil... 1 John 3:8

No sir. You are blaming your sin on the devil, and claiming it is the devil who gets punished for your sin.

"He" refers to the person who sins.

Sin dwells in our flesh.

17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:17-25

In the same breath Paul gives us the key, in the next paragraph, to stop the sin within our flesh from expressing itself as sinful behavior.

The sin within our flesh desires to be gratified. We have been empowered by the Holy Spirit, to mortify, or put to death, the deeds and expressions if the sinful flesh desiring to gratify itself.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

..if you live according to the flesh you will die;, not the devil, but you will perish.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I'd like to test the water on the subject of salvation since for me it is key to understanding what salvation is, and therefore whether or not, it is possible to lose it. Since Jesus said that no one can see or enter the kingdom of heaven unless they are born again, a notion that was heretofore unheard prior to Christ, and for good reason, since the Spirit had not been given, what do we say about the 'salvation' of those who lived and died prior to Christ?

They went to paradise, which was down in the heart of the earth, and was named after Abraham.

These awaited for Christ, to come down and be revealed to them after He descended down when He was crucified. Afterward these were taken up to heaven, after having their sins removed, being sinless.

19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’” Luke 16:19-31


JLB

 

[smaller]

He who sins is of the devil... 1 John 3:8

No sir. You are blaming your sin on the devil, and claiming it is the devil who gets punished for your sin.

"He" refers to the person who sins.

Only if a reader completely ignores the devil.

1 John 3:
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

I take it for granted that any honest believer knows that we deal with temptations from the tempter internally, that is, in mind. I also take it for granted that anyone who denies this is not honest and is blinded by the tempter to this scriptural fact. The connection of our sins to the devil, to temptations by the tempter which instill the impetus to do so by evil thoughts can not be legitimately severed. Mark 4:15 proves the same scriptural principle, showing a thief in the heart of man.

That automatically means that in legitimate theology, there are TWO parties to view. And this basic premise is abundantly clear throughout the N.T. in places such as: Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, 2 Cor. 12:7 and many many other citings such as 1 John 3:8.

Unfortunately the devil in people's flesh LOVES to deny this scriptural reality, and will say so, right from any persons mouth when they are blinded by same.

Sin dwells in our flesh.

17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:17-25

In the same breath Paul gives us the key, in the next paragraph, to stop the sin within our flesh from expressing itself as sinful behavior.

Indeed! Indwelling sin does have a mind of IT'S OWN and that mind is DEMONIC.

This basic sight demands any form of legitimate christian theology to make FULL accounting for BOTH parties. Without this honesty to the scriptures the accounting in christian theology is null and void and horribly inaccurate.

 

[smaller]

I'd like to test the water on the subject of salvation since for me it is key to understanding what salvation is, and therefore whether or not, it is possible to lose it. Since Jesus said that no one can see or enter the kingdom of heaven unless they are born again, a notion that was heretofore unheard prior to Christ, and for good reason, since the Spirit had not been given, what do we say about the 'salvation' of those who lived and died prior to Christ?

Most of older orthodox christianity recognize this issue and address it, primarily from:

Romans 2:15
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

This is commonly known as the "law of the conscience." But Paul imho shows us that the law of doing good is the same as the law of the O.T. in intentions.

People may be repelled by works salvation for those who did not or have not known Christ, but that is not true. Paul TRIPLE hammers this point here in Romans 2:

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Orthodoxy recognized that God in Christ can not logically be against doing good. And Paul recognizes this as well, clearly. And just as clearly hooks this to doing good and obtaining eternal life.

As it pertains to this subject matter an even more interesting situation arises. Many end up NOT believing the dictates of MAN as it pertains to the "things of the Spirit" and they may very well depart that form of faith....but

IF they do good, it is just as likely they will stand under the above dictates in any case. Every last one of us as believers DO openly reject other MAN renditions of Jesus if we do not perceive them as truthful from other christian sects.

And we often do so from the LAW of our own CONSCIENCE, where it is WRITTEN.

I firmly believe God in Christ WILL do not only what is RIGHT in the end, but what is PERFECT.

 

[JLB]

Only if a reader completely ignores the devil.

Your "theory" refuses to recognize that the person who sins, is of the devil.

You change what the scriptures says, to: sin is of the devil.

Then you go on to say, that the Christians who live a sinful lifestyle will be saved, because it is the devil sinning, and not the person.


Then He said to the disciples, “It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him through whom they do come!
Matthew 17:1

The devil does tempt us, and wants us to be led away from God, in a sinful lifestyle.

Thanks be to God, we have been given power to mortify, and put to death these sinful manifestations of these flesh.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

We are debtors... our debt is to employ the powerful workings of the Holy Spirit, by being filled with the Spirit, to mortify the deeds of the flesh.

Example: who gets punished for betraying the Lord Jesus Christ? Judas or Satan?


23 He answered and said, “He who dipped his hand with Me in the dish will betray Me. 24 The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.” 25 Then Judas, who was betraying Him, answered and said, “Rabbi, is it I?” He said to him, “You have said it.”
Matthew 26:23-25


The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life, to turn one away from the snares of death. Proverbs 14:27


JLB

 

[smaller]

Your "theory" refuses to recognize that the person who sins, is of the devil.

A. It's not my "theory"

and

B. I recognize sin is of the devil

Pretty simple.

You change what the scriptures says, to: sin is of the devil.

That is the exact verbiage from the KJV in 1 John 3:8. It's neither my bad or my theory to see what is written. And since we all "have" sin indwelling our flesh and can not say we don't have sin to be in truth, this connection is unavoidable. And our own conscience will bear witness to temptations of the tempter as well. So it's a double whammy as far as I'm concerned.

Then you go on to say, that the Christians who live a sinful lifestyle will be saved, because it is the devil sinning, and not the person.

There is no such thing as a "non-sinner" living any kind of lifestyle. So your premise is faulty on the surface. I do acknowledge that people who are openly captured by sin are more of a slave to sin in the flesh. But I don't see any believer as being any less the sinner regardless of their lifestyle or regardless of how good they are about lying about being factual sinners. To me theses kinds of believers are the worst of sinners as they are lying hypocrites. These Jesus detested the MOST.

The devil does tempt us,

Yes. And that temptation IS internal. So do the math.

If Jesus was tempted by the devil then SO ARE WE. I might consider His temptations "external" in nature i.e. the devil had nothing IN HIM. None of us can truthfully make that same claim.

 

[JLB]

A. It's not my "theory"

and

B. I recognize sin is of the devil

Pretty simple.

It's not found in the bible, so it is your theory.

He who sins is of the devil.

He who sins...

He...

Until you start stating what the bible says, and stop with your man made theory, then you will continue to receive correction from God's word.

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
2 Timothy 3:16


JLB

 

[JLB]

Yes. And that temptation IS internal. So do the math.

The math is, He who sins, is the one who is guilty and held accountable to God, for his sin.


JLB

 

[smaller]

It's not found in the bible, so it is your theory.

I really don't know why you keep resorting to that angle. I've cited the statement of fact many times. Here it is, plain as day:

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil;

He who sins is of the devil.

So you prefer a plural rendering from another version of the Bible. I can still read and see the obvious.

Now, just for kicks, IF you see this fact, and you have a believer who is blinded by the DEVIL, do you think it may be beneficial to render judgment to the DEVIL and to the blinded the benefit of the doubt and the ABILITIES of Jesus to honor His Promise?

I do. That's all there is to the subject.

You can see it however you please. If I want the "benefit of the doubt" to be seen for any of "my sins" I might have to take the same sights for OTHERS. That's how it works. Otherwise we are warned that we will fall into the condemnation of the devil. And that is exactly where most believers land on this particular subject:

1 Timothy 3:6
Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

 

[smaller]

The math is, He who sins, is the one who is guilty and held accountable to God, for his sin.
JLB

Every believer is a sinner. And they are so because sin indwells the flesh as a perpetual condition of the flesh. There is no avoiding this math. Exactly ZERO believers have ever made themselves sinless by accountability.

Romans 7:17-21, 1 John 1:8.

 

[WIP]

I really don't know why you keep resorting to that angle. I've cited the statement of fact many times. Here it is, plain as day:

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil;

What about the part I put in blue? Does that mean nothing?