Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

[JLB]

To answer your question did I receive the Holy Spirit. I hope so, but I don't know.

Can we discuss this?


JLB

 

[WIP]

WIP
Regarding 1 John 1:8 I think JLB is trying to delineate between being a sinner and sinning.

Of course if we say we have not sinned we're lying because everyone sins.
Does this mean we're a sinner?

Now, oddly enough, I THINK I understand Smaller's position and I'm pretty sure I understand JLB's position.

Smaller is going to the sin nature. We have this sin nature ingrained in us - it's part of our make-up. We're born with it and it stays with us forever or we'd really never sin. Satan uses this sin nature to tempt and to convince us and this makes us sin - when we are convinced or go through with the temptation. So in this sense, we're sinners and in need of salvation and we remain "sinners" because the sin nature is under control and has no dominion but it does not die. This is why Paul says we should persevere till the end.
Colossians 1:23 Hebrews 10:38 and many more

What JLB is saying is that once we're born again our very nature changes. It is now indwelt with the Holy Spirit. We are no longer sinners by nature. We'll still sin, but our nature is to be in the likeness of God, seeking perfection and being children of God. If we're children of God, how could we be "sinners"?
Hebrews 10:26
Romans 8.5
1 John 3:1-3

So John is saying in 1 John 1:8 that we can't claim to be without sin.
Then he says in 1 John 3:1.3 that we are children of God.
In 1 John 3:6 he says that no one who knows Jesus will keep on sinning
And in 1 John 3:8 he says that who does what is evil is of the devil

Yes. There is much reconciling to do. What we do know for sure:
We sin
We are not to sin
Satan causes sin
We are children of God

Wondering

When I was younger, about 40 years ago, I went through a period in which I did a considerable amount of shoplifting. Ergo, I was a thief. I have since repented of that behavior and no longer desire to steal but I am still a thief nonetheless. I have told lies in my life but have repented and today I have no desire to lie but I a liar still. My view has been that there is a difference between being a sinner (one who has or still does sin) and being viewed by God as a sinner.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10 NKJV

“I, even I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake;
And I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25 NKJV

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” Hebrews 8:10-12 NKJV

I believe we are called to repentance whenever we recognize that we make a mistake. Does that mean that if I make a mistake and commit a sin I am hell-bound until I confess? Absolutely not for God knows my heart and by faith in the Christ, Jesus, I am covered by His blood sacrifice!

This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:5-7 NKJV

There are a lot of "if's" and "but's" in those verses. If from my heart I reject my Lord Jesus and turn my back on him, yes, I am hell-bound. That is what I believe.

And the Lord said to Moses: “Behold, you will rest with your fathers; and this people will rise and play the harlot with the gods of the foreigners of the land, where they go to be among them, and they will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them. Then My anger shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured. And many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, ‘Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?’ And I will surely hide My face in that day because of all the evil which they have done, in that they have turned to other gods. Deuteronomy 31:16-18 NKJV

 

[Sinthesis]

Don't you think at some point, we are to be walking in victory over sin?

Yes, but that victory over sin is not due to our efforts. Our effort always falls short.

Speak for yourself.

Just because your not walking in victory, doesn't mean others aren't.

Sounds like you need to check yourself, whether your in the faith or not.

JLB

I didn't say I'm not walking in victory over sin. Our victory over sin is not due to our effort, rather it is the work of The Holy Spirit. But if you want to take credit for your own righteousness then go right ahead.

 

[Sinthesis]

So what are you basing your theory on?

Your life?

Do you think Paul was a liar?

A thief?

An idolater?

A fornicater?


JLB

Paul may have had a problem with pride.

 

[smaller]

Agreed.

We will have a sinless, immortal body after the resurrection.

Sin remains in our flesh.

Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
Romans 7:20

Not the devil in our flesh, but sin.

JLB

Lusts, temptations, deceptions of the flesh are all because of the devil, the tempter, Satan, who is intimately linked to every sin. There is no avoiding this link. Every seed parable makes this link. 1 John 3:8 makes this link. Paul makes this link many times, in Acts 26:18, Eph. 2:2, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 12:7 ALL link various forms of sin directly to the devil and his messengers.

Few care to hear about that aspect of sin. But it won't change what's in writing.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Can we discuss this?


JLB

Sure.

 

[JLB]

Lusts, temptations, deceptions of the flesh are all because of the devil, the tempter, Satan, who is intimately linked to every sin. There is no avoiding this link. Every seed parable makes this link. 1 John 3:8 makes this link. Paul makes this link many times, in Acts 26:18, Eph. 2:2, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 12:7 ALL link various forms of sin directly to the devil and his messengers.

Few care to hear about that aspect of sin. But it won't change what's in writing.

What's in writing is: He who sins is of the devil. 1 John 3:8

There is no such thing a the devil living within our flesh. This comes from you misinterpreting 2 Corinthians 12;7, which says Paul was given a "messenger of Satan", to buffet him, because of the abundance of his revelations, lest he be exalted above measure.

This condition, was "unique to Paul", because of the abundance of his revelations, for the purpose of keeping Paul from being "exalted above measure".

I didn't say I'm not walking in victory over sin. Our victory over sin is not due to our effort, rather it is the work of The Holy Spirit. But if you want to take credit for your own righteousness then go right ahead.

The sin within our flesh desires to be gratified. We have been empowered by the Holy Spirit, to mortify, or put to death, the deeds and expressions if the sinful flesh desiring to gratify itself.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.Romans 8:12-13

..if you live according to the flesh you will die;, not the devil, but you will perish.


We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.1 John 5:18


It is the Holy Spirit that empowers us, to have victory over the sinful desires of the flesh.

This is because the righteous One who lives within desires to express His righteous life through us.



JLB

 

[smaller]

What's in writing is: He who sins is of the devil. 1 John 3:8

I honestly don't know why you try to make an issue out of the little s quite frankly. My citing is from the quite commonly accepted KJV. I don't think the renditions that add the little s are one bit different, except in my mind, sin is sin, regardless of the little s added.

There is no such thing a the devil living within our flesh.

The tempter does tempt internally and does so "in the flesh." That is, er, ah, what the tempter does.

1 Thessalonians 3:5
For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain.

1 Timothy 3:6
Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

Paul also relinquished believers to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. And did so precisely for good reasons, so they would be saved.

1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

You can make any contrary claims, but honestly, anyone who is a believer HAS dealt with internal temptations, and those temptations, lusts, deceptions, and eventually the death of our flesh is because of the tempter in the flesh. Our bodies die because of sin and sin is, as you note above, of the devil. The connection is entirely obvious and openly shown, and KNOWN by any who care to make that obvious connection.

This comes from you misinterpreting 2 Corinthians 12;7, which says Paul was given a "messenger of Satan", to buffet him, because of the abundance of his revelations, lest he be exalted above measure.

I take Pauls words exactly as he stated it. A messenger of Satan was in fact "in his flesh." There is no reason to see this as anything other than a messenger of Satan, which would be a demonic imp. Paul again shows this in Gal. 4:14 showing temptation in his own flesh. Paul also shows lusts in his flesh/mind in Romans 7:7-13, evil present with him in Romans 7:21, and even defines the sin indwelling his flesh as NO LONGER I twice in Romans 7:17-20.

Again, the connections here are obvious, open and transparent. Do I think Paul was evil? NO! I believe the messenger of Satan in his flesh was assuredly evil, as was the sin indwelling his flesh (sin is of the devil, 1 John 3:8), evil, as was temptation in his flesh, evil. All of these are demonic activity in the flesh.

This condition, was "unique to Paul", because of the abundance of his revelations, for the purpose of keeping Paul from being "exalted above measure".

Unique? Let's not kid ourselves. Everyone who is not saved is blinded in their minds by the god of this world. That would be SATAN. 2 Cor. 4:4. So, no, not unique at all. Especially not so when we read Mark 4:15 and see that this does happen, Satan in heart, THIEVING, where the Word is sown.

Acts 26:18 also shows that unbelievers are under the power of who? Uh, yeah, Satan. Unique only to Paul? No. Paul also says that we ourselves prior to belief walked according to the prince of the power of the air. That same working is shown as "fowls of the air" in Mark 4. The "spirit of disobedience." Eph. 2:2.

Paul also shows us that a "spirit of slumber" was put upon the blinded unbelievers of Israel in Romans 11:8.

Scripture, the Word, has concluded ALL under sin. Sin is of the devil. These conclusions are not going to change. Gal. 3:22, 1 John 3:8. We can't even be "in truth" and say 'we have no sin' and that would be an ever present matter, because sin indwells the flesh.

So no, none of these are "unique only to Paul" whatsoever.

The sin within our flesh desires to be gratified. We have been empowered by the Holy Spirit, to mortify, or put to death, the deeds and expressions if the sinful flesh desiring to gratify itself.

Our body is dead because of sin regardless of how "the flesh" cares to look at it.

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Additionally, Christ condemned sin in the flesh, which sin does indwell our flesh. So NO, it's not about to GET BLESSED by God in Christ by good behavior, but is and remains condemned.

Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

This condemnation doesn't go away. Sin indwells the flesh and as such, is condemned. This is also why the flesh is contrary to the Spirit. It can be no other way. Gal. 5:17.

As good as you might try to spin this subject matter for the flesh and the sin indwelling it and the evil present with us, it won't work or compute, and can't. Because these things are in fact demonic.

God in Christ won't be blessing the tempter in the flesh of anyone.

 

[JLB]

I honestly don't know why you try to make an issue out of the little s quite frankly. My citing is from the quite commonly accepted KJV. I don't think the renditions that add the little s are one bit different, except in my mind, sin is sin, regardless of the little s added.

Has nothing what so ever to do with the "s".

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1 John 3:8

It is the first word in the verse.

"He"...

He that committeth sin...

Who commits the sin?

"He" commits the sin.

He, the person who commits the sin, has aligned himself, or is of, the devil.

It's the person commiting the sin.

Not the devil "in their flesh", commiting the sin.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

It means Satanic salvation is a blatant heresy. We know from Matt. 25 and from other scriptures that the devil and his messengers are going to the flames.

Indeed. And the fact of 1 John 3:8 is still a hard fact about "our sins and temptations" as well.

Okay.

I would consider that a common misconception. We are never sinless in the flesh. Sin indwells our flesh. Romans 7:17-21. Evil is present with us. Romans 7:21. Our flesh still serves the law of sin. Romans 7:25. Our flesh is contrary to the spirit because of these conditions of fact. Gal. 4:14, Gal. 5:17.

"Sin indwells our flesh". Is this the same as "Our flesh still serves the law of sin." It sounds like you're separating the body from the spirit. One is evil, one is good. Also, do you understand the "flesh" as spoken of by Paul, to be the same as the "sin nature". Am going to have to do a study on this...

So I would ask you or any other poster if it's remotely conceivable that a believer is entirely forgiven and the tempter, the devil who is involved with every sin is never forgiven. We can confess and do any amounts of exercises and a couple facts are still in force. One is that we are and remain sinners. Such sin is demonic in nature and by no exercises whatsoever is the devil going to be getting off the hook, now or in the future.

This solves the dilemma of the believer being saved or not. Yes, the believer is ROCK SOLID saved, but that does not account for the "whole equation." The above does. Judgment remains in place.

A believer is entirely forgiven.
Satan will never be forgiven.
Being a "sinner" and sinning can be debated. If we still have the sin nature, are we still sinners, even though it's been put under submission? You're going to say yes.
Sin is demonic in nature - the devil causes sin
The devil is not getting off the hook

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Smaller,
I wasn't here. In the kitchen.
I don't understand all these double quote things.
HELP!

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

No, it's not. Paul says flat out that a messenger of Satan was in his flesh. Satan and his messengers are specific evil entities. Wicked/evil anti-Christ spirits in the flesh. Not physical ailments. Paul also said that evil was present with him and that temptation was in his flesh. Is it remotely conceivable to you or any that the messenger of Satan is that evil tempter? I would think that is glaringly obvious. And it is in direct alignment with Mark 4:15 as well.

I'm rethinking the thorn in the flesh. I think it might have meant that Paul was weak in many ways and this was his thorn in the flesh - so he wouldn't be puffed up.
You keep asking if it's not obvious that the messenger of satan is that evil tempter. Of course there are messengers of satan, of course they're evil tempters. But you yourself say above that evil was PRESENT WITH HIM and that temptation was in the FLESH. This has to be understood as being different than its being in the heart. If satan is in the heart - game over. Luke 11:24-25 The demon went and got some more to dwell in the house because it was EMPTY. OUR heart is filled with Jesus - it's not empty. So there's no room there for demons.

Again I don't know how this could be made more obvious. Yes, the tempter DOES enter the heart to steal, to tempt, the deceive and ultimately to destroy the flesh itself. How anyone can miss these facts does speak to the real blindness imposed by the tempter.

As above. The tempter tempts us from the exterior. He's on the outside, tempting us via our flesh or sin nature. (take your pick). When we reason with him, listen to him, and DO the action, then we've sinned. But he's on the outside. Even James says temptations and desires come from the heart. James 1:14 and Jesus, Mark 7:20
2 Timothy 2:22 says to flee evil desires. How do you flee from something that is in your heart? You'd be possessed by it. I can't seem to be able to separate your idea from possession.

There are huge numbers of examples of Satan or devils being in man and speaking from man in the Gospels. And Jesus dealing with them in various ways in man. I don't know how anyone could miss this fact, really, unless they themselves are blinded by same. Satan speaking from Peter for example. Or Satan entering Judas. Or the man in whom dwelt a LEGION of devils. It's not like Mark 4:15 is not confirmed. It's openly confirmed multiple times.

I don't think anyone misses this. But it certainly is different from either sinning OR the sin nature OR the flesh. When satan is IN man, that man is possessed.

Wrong. When Satan spoke from Peter's lips Satan was in the flesh/heart of Peter to do so. And if we pay closer attention Peter confirms Mark 4:15.

Already discussed this. Peter was speaking from a world view. He didn't want Jesus to go to the cross. Jesus knew this. It wasn't necessary for the devil to be IN Peter to say what he did. The other times Jesus spoke to demons, did it seem the same to you as when He said to Peter "Get thee behind me satan??"
Mathew 9:32-33
Luke 11:14
Mark 1: 23-26

It looks really different to me. Peter was not possessed. Jesus knows it's satan that gives evil and/or worldly ideas and He was addressing satan in this sense.

Jesus:
Luke 11:20
But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

I really don't know how anyone could manage to read the Gospels and NOT see the overlap between the devil and his messengers and mankind quite frankly. A reader would have to be nearly blind to the obvious to miss it.

Scripture also teaches us that every person who does not believe is blinded by the god of this world IN their mind. 2 Cor. 4:4. It also teaches us that we ourselves prior to belief walked according to the power of the prince of the air, the spirit of disobedience. Eph. 2:2.

Pauls directive from Jesus was exactly this: To turn people from the power of SATAN unto God. Acts 26:18.

Gosh Smaller
Your first pp has nothing to do with satan, per se. (Luke 11:20) It's speaking to a house divided against itself and under WHICH power Jesus was operating - certainly not the power of satan. I don't see how this scripture applies to anything you're saying.

I agree with the rest.

Wondering

 

[smaller]

(from the prior post you said)
"Sin indwells our flesh". Is this the same as "Our flesh still serves the law of sin." It sounds like you're separating the body from the spirit. One is evil, one is good. Also, do you understand the "flesh" as spoken of by Paul, to be the same as the "sin nature". Am going to have to do a study on this...

Wondering

Paul delineates clearly that the Spirit is both against and contrary to the flesh. Gal. 5:17

We also know that our wrestling match(es) in the flesh are NOT with flesh, but with wicked/evil/adverse spiritual agents.

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

I've stated many times, the instant any believer acknowledges and/or concedes to the fact that temptations are internal/in mind and are of the tempter, the devil, THEN they will see the adversary in their own flesh. It will also change how they see themselves. It will also change how they read scripture, because there are 2 parties in the flesh.

As it pertains to this thread, I will contend that the believer shall be saved. The tempter, not, and will have the opposite fate. In this the fulcrum for judgment remains. Sin/evil is NOT let off the hook "in the Name of Jesus." Judgment in both senses, will be fulfilled. The Judgment of Love, Mercy, Grace and Forgiveness to the believer. The Judgment of eternal damnation upon the adversary in the flesh, the tempter (and his own substrata-demon-family.)

Satan does have "a kingdom." That kingdom and how it functions is detailed in the scriptures. That kingdom is unseen. That kingdom rules the world of evil, unseen. These things scriptures teach.

What Jesus said in Mark 4:15 is true. Where the Word is sown, Satan DOES enter the heart to do his deeds. We have sin indwelling our flesh. The slightest "thought" of sin/evil IS defiling and it is sin:

Matt. 5:28, Matt. 15:19-20 and Mark 7:21-23

And sin is demonic i.e. "of the devil. 1 John 3:8

Believers in general HATE to hear these things. But that hatred is really not of themselves. There is another party involved who doesn't take the information kindly. And will BLOCK out "their" lair, their "hiding place," which is the flesh, from being known, yes, in the flesh of believers. And because "some" believers do not see this they will WRONGLY adversely judge the believer rather than the sin indwelling the flesh, evil present, the tempter (or his own.)

When any believer DOES see this they will never adversely judge another believer unto eternal damnation, EVER again. Because they will know where to direct their judgment, even to themselves.

 

[smaller]

I'm rethinking the thorn in the flesh. I think it might have meant that Paul was weak in many ways and this was his thorn in the flesh - so he wouldn't be puffed up.
You keep asking if it's not obvious that the messenger of satan is that evil tempter. Of course there are messengers of satan, of course they're evil tempters. But you yourself say above that evil was PRESENT WITH HIM and that temptation was in the FLESH. This has to be understood as being different than its being in the heart. If satan is in the heart - game over. Luke 11:24-25 The demon went and got some more to dwell in the house because it was EMPTY. OUR heart is filled with Jesus - it's not empty. So there's no room there for demons.

Paul had a messenger of Satan in his own flesh. I accept the printed version, black on white, exactly as Paul states it. It is an identical position as Mark 4:15. This identical fact is shown also with Satan speaking from Peter's lips and Satan entering Judas and literally "thousands" of other examples of devils inhabiting PEOPLE in the N.T.

Satan is an unseen entity. And NO, Satan does not "tempt" us from the outside, but in MIND and HEART. He is not "standing" on our shoulder where we can see him, whispering in our ear. It's in our mind and heart that this activity transpires. And equally sure, the tempter will say "it's only YOU you worthless sinner, so don't blame me. God is going to burn you alive forever for SIN and I'm not involved."

Satan is "the accuser of the brethren."

Revelation 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

The working of the accuser of the brethren can be seen right here in this thread when believers (it's not really them) try to make a case for eternally torturing another believer or ignoring the devil's implication in sin, particularly in their own sin. These are in fact works of the deceiver in believers.

And the responses are always predictable from that deceiver, predictably deceptive.

 

[JLB]

Paul had a messenger of Satan in his own flesh.

Paul did not have a messenger of Satan in his flesh.

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me,“My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.”Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 2 Corinthians 12:7-9

A thorn in the flesh is an Idiom, likened to what is said today... Pain in the ....

A source of irritation and or frustration.

This was unique to Paul, lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations...

There is not a messenger of Satan is the flesh of Christians.

Satan can and does "oppress" us, and deceive us.

Thank God we are not ignorant of his ways and methods, and have been given power over him.

8 Therefore I urge you to reaffirm your love to him. 9 For to this end I also wrote, that I might put you to the test, whether you are obedient in all things. 10 Now whom you forgive anything, I also forgive. For if indeed I have forgiven anything, I have forgiven that one for your sakes in the presence of Christ, 11 lest Satan should take advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices.
2 Corinthians 2:8-11


JLB

 

[JLB]

The working of the accuser of the brethren can be seen right here in this thread when believers (it's not really them) try to make a case for eternally torturing another believer or ignoring the devil's implication in sin, particularly in their own sin. These are in fact works of the deceiver in believers.

The fact is, The Christian is responsible to obey Christ, because they have turned away from their old master and lord, Satan.

These who have repented and been given the Holy Spirit, now have the right to become sons of God [John 1:12]...who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:5-8


41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:41-46


JLB

 

[smaller]

Paul did not have a messenger of Satan in his flesh.

Why these plain statements of fact are even challenged is foolish.

Here's Paul's statement:

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn---> in the flesh, the messenger of Satan<---to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Here's your claim:

"Paul did not have a messenger of Satan in his flesh."

Obviously Paul would be right.

A thorn in the flesh is an Idiom, likened to what is said today... Pain in the ....

A source of irritation and or frustration.

Paul used a specific identifier using a specific entity class. Were it an idiom there would be no need for that entity class to be specified. Satan and his messengers are taken by orthodoxy AND at this site to be real adverse spiritual agents. NOT just idioms.

 

[JLB]

Why these plain statements of fact are even challenged is foolish.

Here's Paul's statement:

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn---> in the flesh, the messenger of Satan<---to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Here's your claim:

"Paul did not have a messenger of Satan in his flesh."

Obviously Paul would be right.

Of course Paul was writing, about a thorn in the flesh, which is an expression, a idiomatic expression, like we have today.

Today, we would say a pain in the a..., or a pain in the b.....

The thorn in the flesh, is the expression.

What the thorn in the flesh was, was a messenger of Satan.

The message of the messenger of Satan, was delivered through unbelieving Jews, who this messenger "sent out" from Jerusalem as "false apostles". The false apostles carried the message they were sent to proclaim.

You must become circumcised and keep the law of Moses in order to be saved.

• [And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” Acts 15:1]

• Just as Paul was sent out by the Holy Spirit as an Apostle.

2 As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3 Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away. 4 So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus. 5 And when they arrived in Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews. They also had John as their assistant. Acts 13:2-5

Paul carried the message he was sent out by the Holy Spirit to proclaim.

The message of Jesus Christ, The Gospel.

Here is what Jesus personally told Paul to do:

17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:17-18


Paul writes about these false apostles, and their message.

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works. 2 Corinthians 11:13-15

False apostles claiming to be ministers of righteousness.

This is the context for what Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 12, here in 2 Corinthians 11.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Satan and his messengers are taken by orthodoxy AND at this site to be real adverse spiritual agents. NOT just idioms.

Of course Satan and his angels are real.

What isn't real is Satan in Paul's flesh.

The "thorn in the flesh" is an expression.

The messenger of Satan sent to undermine Paul's work among the Gentiles, is what became a thorn in his flesh, or a PITA to him.

The Church, in God's wisdom would benefit for thousands of years from this, as Paul was forced to elaborate on the righteousness of faith vs the righteousness of the law is his letters.


JLB

 

[smaller]

Of course Satan and his angels are real. What isn't real is Satan in Paul's flesh.

Using your method makes Satan in idiom.

The messenger of Satan was that. They are also termed as thorns. Also as tares. Also real, nevertheless.

Matthew 13:38
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;