To answer your question did I receive the Holy Spirit. I hope so, but I don't know.
Can we discuss this?
JLB
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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To answer your question did I receive the Holy Spirit. I hope so, but I don't know.
When I was younger, about 40 years ago, I went through a period in which I did a considerable amount of shoplifting. Ergo, I was a thief. I have since repented of that behavior and no longer desire to steal but I am still a thief nonetheless. I have told lies in my life but have repented and today I have no desire to lie but I a liar still. My view has been that there is a difference between being a sinner (one who has or still does sin) and being viewed by God as a sinner.WIP
Regarding 1 John 1:8 I think JLB is trying to delineate between being a sinner and sinning.
Of course if we say we have not sinned we're lying because everyone sins.
Does this mean we're a sinner?
Now, oddly enough, I THINK I understand Smaller's position and I'm pretty sure I understand JLB's position.
Smaller is going to the sin nature. We have this sin nature ingrained in us - it's part of our make-up. We're born with it and it stays with us forever or we'd really never sin. Satan uses this sin nature to tempt and to convince us and this makes us sin - when we are convinced or go through with the temptation. So in this sense, we're sinners and in need of salvation and we remain "sinners" because the sin nature is under control and has no dominion but it does not die. This is why Paul says we should persevere till the end.
Colossians 1:23 Hebrews 10:38 and many more
What JLB is saying is that once we're born again our very nature changes. It is now indwelt with the Holy Spirit. We are no longer sinners by nature. We'll still sin, but our nature is to be in the likeness of God, seeking perfection and being children of God. If we're children of God, how could we be "sinners"?
Hebrews 10:26
Romans 8.5
1 John 3:1-3
So John is saying in 1 John 1:8 that we can't claim to be without sin.
Then he says in 1 John 3:1.3 that we are children of God.
In 1 John 3:6 he says that no one who knows Jesus will keep on sinning
And in 1 John 3:8 he says that who does what is evil is of the devil
Yes. There is much reconciling to do. What we do know for sure:
We sin
We are not to sin
Satan causes sin
We are children of God
Wondering
Don't you think at some point, we are to be walking in victory over sin?
Yes, but that victory over sin is not due to our efforts. Our effort always falls short.
Speak for yourself.
Just because your not walking in victory, doesn't mean others aren't.
Sounds like you need to check yourself, whether your in the faith or not.
JLB
So what are you basing your theory on?
Your life?
Do you think Paul was a liar?
A thief?
An idolater?
A fornicater?
JLB
Agreed.
We will have a sinless, immortal body after the resurrection.
Sin remains in our flesh.
Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
Romans 7:20
Not the devil in our flesh, but sin.
JLB
Can we discuss this?
JLB
Lusts, temptations, deceptions of the flesh are all because of the devil, the tempter, Satan, who is intimately linked to every sin. There is no avoiding this link. Every seed parable makes this link. 1 John 3:8 makes this link. Paul makes this link many times, in Acts 26:18, Eph. 2:2, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 12:7 ALL link various forms of sin directly to the devil and his messengers.
Few care to hear about that aspect of sin. But it won't change what's in writing.
I didn't say I'm not walking in victory over sin. Our victory over sin is not due to our effort, rather it is the work of The Holy Spirit. But if you want to take credit for your own righteousness then go right ahead.
What's in writing is: He who sins is of the devil. 1 John 3:8
There is no such thing a the devil living within our flesh.
This comes from you misinterpreting 2 Corinthians 12;7, which says Paul was given a "messenger of Satan", to buffet him, because of the abundance of his revelations, lest he be exalted above measure.
This condition, was "unique to Paul", because of the abundance of his revelations, for the purpose of keeping Paul from being "exalted above measure".
The sin within our flesh desires to be gratified. We have been empowered by the Holy Spirit, to mortify, or put to death, the deeds and expressions if the sinful flesh desiring to gratify itself.
I honestly don't know why you try to make an issue out of the little s quite frankly. My citing is from the quite commonly accepted KJV. I don't think the renditions that add the little s are one bit different, except in my mind, sin is sin, regardless of the little s added.
It means Satanic salvation is a blatant heresy. We know from Matt. 25 and from other scriptures that the devil and his messengers are going to the flames.
Indeed. And the fact of 1 John 3:8 is still a hard fact about "our sins and temptations" as well.Okay.
"Sin indwells our flesh". Is this the same as "Our flesh still serves the law of sin." It sounds like you're separating the body from the spirit. One is evil, one is good. Also, do you understand the "flesh" as spoken of by Paul, to be the same as the "sin nature". Am going to have to do a study on this...I would consider that a common misconception. We are never sinless in the flesh. Sin indwells our flesh. Romans 7:17-21. Evil is present with us. Romans 7:21. Our flesh still serves the law of sin. Romans 7:25. Our flesh is contrary to the spirit because of these conditions of fact. Gal. 4:14, Gal. 5:17.
A believer is entirely forgiven.So I would ask you or any other poster if it's remotely conceivable that a believer is entirely forgiven and the tempter, the devil who is involved with every sin is never forgiven. We can confess and do any amounts of exercises and a couple facts are still in force. One is that we are and remain sinners. Such sin is demonic in nature and by no exercises whatsoever is the devil going to be getting off the hook, now or in the future.
This solves the dilemma of the believer being saved or not. Yes, the believer is ROCK SOLID saved, but that does not account for the "whole equation." The above does. Judgment remains in place.
Satan will never be forgiven.
Being a "sinner" and sinning can be debated. If we still have the sin nature, are we still sinners, even though it's been put under submission? You're going to say yes.
Sin is demonic in nature - the devil causes sin
The devil is not getting off the hook
Wondering
I'm rethinking the thorn in the flesh. I think it might have meant that Paul was weak in many ways and this was his thorn in the flesh - so he wouldn't be puffed up.No, it's not. Paul says flat out that a messenger of Satan was in his flesh. Satan and his messengers are specific evil entities. Wicked/evil anti-Christ spirits in the flesh. Not physical ailments. Paul also said that evil was present with him and that temptation was in his flesh. Is it remotely conceivable to you or any that the messenger of Satan is that evil tempter? I would think that is glaringly obvious. And it is in direct alignment with Mark 4:15 as well.
As above. The tempter tempts us from the exterior. He's on the outside, tempting us via our flesh or sin nature. (take your pick). When we reason with him, listen to him, and DO the action, then we've sinned. But he's on the outside. Even James says temptations and desires come from the heart. James 1:14 and Jesus, Mark 7:20Again I don't know how this could be made more obvious. Yes, the tempter DOES enter the heart to steal, to tempt, the deceive and ultimately to destroy the flesh itself. How anyone can miss these facts does speak to the real blindness imposed by the tempter.
I don't think anyone misses this. But it certainly is different from either sinning OR the sin nature OR the flesh. When satan is IN man, that man is possessed.There are huge numbers of examples of Satan or devils being in man and speaking from man in the Gospels. And Jesus dealing with them in various ways in man. I don't know how anyone could miss this fact, really, unless they themselves are blinded by same. Satan speaking from Peter for example. Or Satan entering Judas. Or the man in whom dwelt a LEGION of devils. It's not like Mark 4:15 is not confirmed. It's openly confirmed multiple times.
Already discussed this. Peter was speaking from a world view. He didn't want Jesus to go to the cross. Jesus knew this. It wasn't necessary for the devil to be IN Peter to say what he did. The other times Jesus spoke to demons, did it seem the same to you as when He said to Peter "Get thee behind me satan??"Wrong. When Satan spoke from Peter's lips Satan was in the flesh/heart of Peter to do so. And if we pay closer attention Peter confirms Mark 4:15.
Jesus:
Luke 11:20
But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
I really don't know how anyone could manage to read the Gospels and NOT see the overlap between the devil and his messengers and mankind quite frankly. A reader would have to be nearly blind to the obvious to miss it.
Scripture also teaches us that every person who does not believe is blinded by the god of this world IN their mind. 2 Cor. 4:4. It also teaches us that we ourselves prior to belief walked according to the power of the prince of the air, the spirit of disobedience. Eph. 2:2.
Pauls directive from Jesus was exactly this: To turn people from the power of SATAN unto God. Acts 26:18.
(from the prior post you said)
"Sin indwells our flesh". Is this the same as "Our flesh still serves the law of sin." It sounds like you're separating the body from the spirit. One is evil, one is good. Also, do you understand the "flesh" as spoken of by Paul, to be the same as the "sin nature". Am going to have to do a study on this...
Wondering
I'm rethinking the thorn in the flesh. I think it might have meant that Paul was weak in many ways and this was his thorn in the flesh - so he wouldn't be puffed up.
You keep asking if it's not obvious that the messenger of satan is that evil tempter. Of course there are messengers of satan, of course they're evil tempters. But you yourself say above that evil was PRESENT WITH HIM and that temptation was in the FLESH. This has to be understood as being different than its being in the heart. If satan is in the heart - game over. Luke 11:24-25 The demon went and got some more to dwell in the house because it was EMPTY. OUR heart is filled with Jesus - it's not empty. So there's no room there for demons.
Paul had a messenger of Satan in his own flesh.
The working of the accuser of the brethren can be seen right here in this thread when believers (it's not really them) try to make a case for eternally torturing another believer or ignoring the devil's implication in sin, particularly in their own sin. These are in fact works of the deceiver in believers.
Paul did not have a messenger of Satan in his flesh.
A thorn in the flesh is an Idiom, likened to what is said today... Pain in the ....
A source of irritation and or frustration.
Why these plain statements of fact are even challenged is foolish.
Here's Paul's statement:
2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn---> in the flesh, the messenger of Satan<---to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
Here's your claim:
"Paul did not have a messenger of Satan in his flesh."
Obviously Paul would be right.
Satan and his messengers are taken by orthodoxy AND at this site to be real adverse spiritual agents. NOT just idioms.
Of course Satan and his angels are real. What isn't real is Satan in Paul's flesh.