Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

[Jim Parker]

Everyone has sin dwelling in their flesh.

I would say that the desires of the flesh are to sin. Sin itself enters when we submit to the desires of the flesh either willfully or unconsciously. (It's essentially the same thing you said.)

He who sins.... is of the devil.
The devil doesn't do the sinning.
The person themselves commits the sin. 1 John 3:8

You nailed it.

iakov the fool



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[FreeGrace]

WIth all the threads on OSAS and eternal security, I don't expect there would be anything new on this thread.

The Biblical answer to the question posed by this thread is simply…"no".

All references are from the NASB:

First, Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. Then he wrote Rom 11:29 - the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Since he had already described what he meant by "gifts of God", there was no reason for him to specifically list what he meant by "gifts of God".

3:24 - being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus
6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Second, every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe (Eph 1:13). This sealing is a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers - Eph 1:14).

And, this sealing is for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).

1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Third, Jesus tells us WHEN one HAS eternal life; when they believe (Jn 5:24). Then, He tells us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).

5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Fourth, Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:
v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"
v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).
v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).
v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.
v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.
v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation
v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Fifth, there are absolutely zero verses that warn us plainly that one can lose their salvation.

Those who believe that salvation can be lost have quite clearly rejected these 15 verses which teach that salvation cannot be lost.

 

[smaller]

I would say that the desires of the flesh are to sin. Sin itself enters when we submit to the desires of the flesh either willfully or unconsciously. (It's essentially the same thing you said.)

You nailed it.

iakov the fool

Sorry, I'd have to say you both missed the mark entirely on that count.

Sin dwells in our flesh. It does not "enter" but is in the flesh. It does not come and go. Romans 7:7-13 and Romans 7:17-21 makes these matters clear as a bell. And that is WHY we can ONLY be saved by Grace through faith and the Mercy of God in Christ, alone, and NOT of ourselves, because of the reality of sin dwelling in our flesh and evil present with us. These conditions do NOT change their stripes after salvation. That is also why the flesh is contrary to and against the Spirit, which condition ALSO remains, after salvation. Gal. 5:17, 1 Tim. 1:15.

Yes, we are all sinners, saved by Grace and His Mercy expressed in Christ. It can be no other way. We can not squeeze ourselves out from the position we are in, in the flesh. When we claim otherwise, we are deceived by our own flesh, and quickly turned into lying hypocrites, justifying ourselves, by works.

Paul clearly gave his own flesh a HARD VOTE of NO CONFIDENCE.

Philippians 3:3
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

 

[Malachi]

The Biblical answer to the question posed by this thread is simply…"no".

Correct. Salvation is not a set of keys which can be lost or misplaced. It is the gift of God to those who repent and believe the Gospel.

 

[Jim Parker]

WIth all the threads on OSAS and eternal security, I don't expect there would be anything new on this thread.The Biblical answer to the question posed by this thread is simply…"no".

Actually, the Biblical answer is simply; "Yes."
The references supporting the "Yes" answer, taken directly from your "sola scriptura," have been posted repeatedly.
I won't bother posting them yet another time since those who cling to the OSAS innovation simply refuse to acknowledge them or have per-packaged misinterpretations and spins ready to provide an excuse to ignore those disagreeable portions of God's word.

It doesn't matter anyway. At the Judgment, God will not ask if we were OSAS or not. He won't ask any questions at all.
His judgment will not be based on what anyone thinks they KNOW.
His judgment will be based on what each person did or did not DO.

Here's how Jesus said He will judge mankind:
Mat 25:31 "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.
34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'
37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?'
40 And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'
41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.'
46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (RSV)

iakov the fool



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[turnorburn]

When The Lord comes he will gather his elect.. what's left down below will be those that knew about Jesus but didn't Know Jesus...

I Thessalonians 3:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Judas' for an example

 

[turnorburn]

Like this in...

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

"I never knew you"

 

[Jim Parker]

When The Lord comes he will gather his elect.. what's left down below will be those that knew about Jesus but didn't Know Jesus...
I Thessalonians 3:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Judas' for an example

Aaaaaaannd your point is?????????

 

[FreeGrace]

Actually, the Biblical answer is simply; "Yes."
The references supporting the "Yes" answer, taken directly from your "sola scriptura," have been posted repeatedly.
I won't bother posting them yet another time since those who cling to the OSAS innovation simply refuse to acknowledge them or have per-packaged misinterpretations and spins ready to provide an excuse to ignore those disagreeable portions of God's word.

Simply posting verses that one may think refutes the verses I posted doesn't advance the discussion.

The verses I posted clearly teach eternal security. If they don't, it is incumbent upon the disagreer to exegete the verses to prove that they don't teach eternal security, but something else. That's what I've done with ALL the supposed verses that some post who think that salvation can be lost.

So, I've given 15 verses. If one wants to refute my answer, then begin with these 15 verses and exegete them to prove that they teach something OTHER than eternal security.

It doesn't matter anyway. At the Judgment, God will not ask if we were OSAS or not. He won't ask any questions at all.
His judgment will not be based on what anyone thinks they KNOW.
His judgment will be based on what each person did or did not DO.

Correct. Every person in humanity will be judged for what they did. Believers will be judged, whether good or bad at the Bema. This judgment is for reward (2 Cor 5:10). Unbelievers will be judged at the Great White Throne, to determine how "tolerable" it will be for them in the lake of fire (Rev 20:11-15).

 

[Jim Parker]

Sorry, I'd have to say you both missed the mark entirely on that count.
Sin dwells in our flesh. It does not "enter" but is in the flesh. It does not come and go.

Right. I don't think anyone suggested that sin comes into and goes out of our flesh like an annoying relative coming for a visit.

Romans 7:7-13 and Romans 7:17-21 makes these matters clear as a bell. And that is WHY we can ONLY be saved by Grace through faith and the Mercy of God in Christ, alone, and NOT of ourselves, because of the reality of sin dwelling in our flesh and evil present with us. These conditions do NOT change their stripes after salvation. That is also why the flesh is contrary to and against the Spirit, which condition ALSO remains, after salvation. Gal. 5:17, 1 Tim. 1:15.

The flesh is the abode of the passions which are sinful desires. They do not become sin until we act on them.
It is that desire to satisfy the lusts of the flesh which is the "sin

Yes, we are all sinners, saved by Grace and His Mercy expressed in Christ. It can be no other way. We can not squeeze ourselves out from the position we are in, in the flesh. When we claim otherwise, we are deceived by our own flesh, and quickly turned into lying hypocrites, justifying ourselves, by works. Paul clearly gave his own flesh a HARD VOTE of NO CONFIDENCE..

Yup.

Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

That's talking about keeping the Law as a means of salvation not indwelling sin.

iakov the fool




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[smaller]

Right. I don't think anyone suggested that sin comes into and goes out of our flesh like an annoying relative coming for a visit.

The flesh is the abode of the passions which are sinful desires. They do not become sin until we act on them.

And that is a false teaching that can't hold scriptural water.

Jesus told us the facts, and they are not external sins, but internal, because of the presence of sin dwelling in the flesh and evil present with us.

Matt. 5:28, Matt. 15:19-20 and Mark 7:21-23

False teachings will say sin is only on the outside, when it shows up, as an adverse action. That is NOT what Jesus shows us in the above nor is it what Paul shows us in Romans 7, for examples.

Paul clearly stated lusts transpired within him, prompted by sin reacting adversely to Gods Laws.

It is that desire to satisfy the lusts of the flesh which is the "sin

I do not believe that is what The Word shows us at all. Evil and sin dwelling in our flesh is an ever present internal matter of state of the natural flesh body.

Needless to say I don't believe your "teachers" or "teachings" are truthful to the scriptures. Doesn't mean I don't think Jesus won't save you because of it either.

 

[Jim Parker]

Simply posting verses that one may think refutes the verses I posted doesn't advance the discussion.

Of course not. The scripture has to be read and considered rather than being rejected out of hand because it does not fit the denominational innovation.

Correct. Every person in humanity will be judged for what they did. Believers will be judged, whether good or bad at the Bema. This judgment is for reward (2 Cor 5:10). Unbelievers will be judged at the Great White Throne, to determine how "tolerable" it will be for them in the lake of fire (Rev 20:11-15).

2Co 5:10 (RSV) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.
The "good" is eternal life. The "evil" is eternal 2nd death.

Jesus said: John 5:28-29 (NKJV)… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Paul said: Ro 6:2-10 (NKJV) (God) will render to each one according to his deeds; eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Rev 20:11-15 says essentially the same thing.
Rev 20:15(RSV)... if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. There is no gradation of punishment suggested there.
There will be one judgment. (Though the notion of two judgments and "rewards" (prizes) and all that stuff sure "preaches good" and tickles the ears and gets folk to write those checks.)

iakov the fool




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The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying changes to your cognitive functionality that may result.
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[Jim Parker]

Needless to say I don't believe your "teachers" or "teachings" are truthful to the scriptures. Doesn't mean I don't think Jesus won't save you because of it either.

Also needless to say, I find it challenging to be too overly concerned with regard to what you might think.
Have a nice day.

 

[FreeGrace]

Of course not. The scripture has to be read and considered rather than being rejected out of hand because it does not fit the denominational innovation.

Nothing I posted had any "denominational innovation". The verses were both Jesus' words and Paul's words directly.

If anyone disagrees that all 15 verses don't teach eternal security, one needs to address each verse with exegesis to explain what it teaches other than eternal security.

2Co 5:10 (RSV) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.
The "good" is eternal life. The "evil" is eternal 2nd death.

This is simply a statement, an opinion. From where does that come? The verse clearly says that each believer will receive good or evil, per what they have done. It says NOTHING about loss of salvation. No where in Scripture is either eternal life or the 2nd death described as good and evil. So there is no basis for that interpretation.

Jesus said: John 5:28-29 (NKJV)… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Paul said: Ro 6:2-10 (NKJV) (God) will render to each one according to his deeds; eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Rev 20:11-15 says essentially the same thing.
Rev 20:15(RSV)... if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. There is no gradation of punishment suggested there.
There will be one judgment. (Though the notion of two judgments and "rewards" (prizes) and all that stuff sure "preaches good" and tickles the ears and gets folk to write those checks.)

Instead of just throwing back more verses, how about proving to me that the 15 verses I gave don't teach eternal security.

I've already addressed the first verse you've just thrown at me. I'm not interested in other verses until you address the verses that I have given. They are all very clear. But since you obviously disagree, please go ahead and address each one and explain through exegesis WHY they don't teach eternal security and what they DO teach.

That is how one actually refutes the idea of another.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I'm with all of you.
I'm following.
OSAS

 

[Jim Parker]

Instead of just throwing back more verses, how about proving to me that the 15 verses I gave don't teach eternal security.

I have repeatedly. OSAS folk don't care.
I have no interest in doing it again just to get the same rationalizations, speculations, gyrations and evasions that OSAS people generally use to get around the word "if". (I guess it depends on what the word "if" means.)

 

[JLB]

Actually, the Biblical answer is simply; "Yes."
The references supporting the "Yes" answer, taken directly from your "sola scriptura," have been posted repeatedly.
I won't bother posting them yet another time since those who cling to the OSAS innovation simply refuse to acknowledge them or have per-packaged misinterpretations and spins ready to provide an excuse to ignore those disagreeable portions of God's word.

It doesn't matter anyway. At the Judgment, God will not ask if we were OSAS or not. He won't ask any questions at all.
His judgment will not be based on what anyone thinks they KNOW.
His judgment will be based on what each person did or did not DO.

Here's how Jesus said He will judge mankind:
Mat 25:31 "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.
34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'
37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?'
40 And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'
41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.'
46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (RSV)

iakov the fool



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[Jim Parker]

Nothing I posted had any "denominational innovation". The verses were both Jesus' words and Paul's words directly.

But your understanding was not. It was contaminated and confused by the "free grace" innovation.

I've already addressed the first verse you've just thrown at me.

I don't throw verses. They are treasure.
I post them for your consideration.
What you do with those pearls is your free will choice.

......explain through exegesis.......

Before I can do that you need to have a much firmer grasp of the meaning and use of the word; "if."
As in:

COL 1:21-23 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight —IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

What do you imagine that word "if" is there for?
It means that IF you do not continue in the faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel, that you will NOT BE reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight. That is the condition that the word "IF" introduces.
Otherwise, why bother to say IF you continue......?
If one's salvation a "done deal", as the OSAS innovation teaches, then that part of the sentence is meaningless babble.

iakov the fool








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The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying changes to your cognitive functionality that may result.
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[FreeGrace]

I have repeatedly. OSAS folk don't care.
I have no interest in doing it again just to get the same rationalizations, speculations, gyrations and evasions that OSAS people generally use to get around the word "if". (I guess it depends on what the word "if" means.)

You've never done that. Or I would have remembered it.

So, in general, what do those 15 verses teach if not eternal security? Just summarize, to save time.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The verses were both Jesus' words and Paul's words directly."

But your understanding was not. It was contaminated and confused by the "free grace" innovation.

Nonsense. The words of both of them are clear and directly speak of eternal security. It is your understanding that is not.

I don't throw verses. They are treasure.
I post them for your consideration.
What you do with those pearls is your free will choice.

Just tell me what the 15 verses actually do teach then. You can summarize to save time.

Before I can do that you need to have a much firmer grasp of the meaning and use of the word; "if."
As in:

COL 1:21-23 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight —IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

What do you imagine that word "if" is there for?

Obviously to show a condition. The issue in these verses is to understand the issue, which is NOT about staying saved, as you assume.

The condition for being "presented holy, blameless and above reproach" is to continue in your faith.

Now, IF that verse had actually said salvation was conditioned on continuing in your faith, you would be correct. But the verse doesn't say anything close to that.

It means that IF you do not continue in the faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel, that you will NOT BE reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight

. That is the condition that the word "IF" introduces.

There is your error. God HAS already reconciled us, IN ORDER TO present us holy, blameless and above reproach. Which is conditioned upon our continuing in the faith. You've misread the verse badly.

iow, the command to every believer is to be holy and blameless and above reproach. This is about lifestyle, not about getting saved. And we CANNOT be presented as holy, blameless and above reproach IF we don't continue in the faith.

Otherwise, why bother to say

IF you continue...…?

Explanation above.

If one's salvation a "done deal", as the OSAS innovation teaches, then that part of the sentence is meaningless babble.

Well, when one misreads any verse, all one gets is meaningless babble.

The verse tells us that God reconciled us TO present us holy, blameless and above reproach IF we continue in the faith.

The "to" means "in order to". That would be the purpose of reconciling us. God wants to present us holy, blameless and above reproach. But in order to do that, we MUST continue in the faith. That's WHY we find the "if" in that verse.

It's clearly NOT about continuing in the faith in order to be or stay saved. That isn't even close to what Paul wrote.