Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

[Chopper]

I agree with your assessment, and example.

However, I ask you to consider that their may be more than just "two" types of Christians.

Especially since Jesus gave us more than two types in the parable of the Sower.

I respect your beliefs, that come from a sincere faith and diligent study, and because you have shown love and kindness to all on this Forum. Your experience as a Pastor that has worked with people for years, is to be respected and honored.

So it is with an attitude of meekness that I ask you to consider this.


Blessings to you and your household.


JLB

Thank you for those very kind and generous words my friend JLB. I too respect your thoughts and presentations. I always, it seems, to learn or be reminded of important doctrines that you post here. It's learned Brothers like you that keep me here at CF.net. The quality, and honest insight into our beloved Scriptures always excites me when I see your avatar and post.

I will indeed study again the Sower and seed. I may come back to you for your wisdom, if I may.

 

[WIP]

Let's get back to the topic of this thread and be kind.

 

[JLB]

I might suggest the best view possible is for a fact beneficial to ALL believers.

What benefits everyone is the truth.

Knowing the truth is the only thing that sets you free from the deception that is spawned by human reasoning.

• We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18

• And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Galatians 5:24

• ...if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:13

JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

and btw, the last time I checked citing scripture for statements of fact in this forum is perfectly acceptable.

Being an acceptable practice in this forum is not verification that the conclusions which you draw from those scriptures are valid.

The posture that says scriptures clear statements are "eliminated" after they are run through the imaginary sifters of non-existing contextual applications doesn't exist to eliminate scripture.

I don't know what you're talking about. What are "the imaginary sifters of non-existing contextual applications"?

Although that IS the primary practice of sectarian orthodoxy and also why so many Protestants REJECT their postures and positions.

What is a "sectarian orthodox"?
What practice are you talking about?
Exactly what "postures and positions" Do you think so many Protestants reject? (Sitting? Standing? Kneeling?)
I have no idea what you are training to communicate.

 

[Cygnus]

If a believer stops believing, are they still a "believer", though they have stopped believing.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13



JLB

JLB asked "If a believer stops believing, are they still a "believer", though they have stopped believing."

I would say they are not believers.....but if they were once truly believers, as in truly saved, then they are still saved.

 

[JLB]

I would say they are not believers.....but if they were once truly believers, as in truly saved, then they are still saved.

I would say they are not believers...

Ok, please share with us the scriptures that say "un-believers" are saved.

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8



JLB

 

[Cygnus]

I would say they are not believers...

Ok, please share with us the scriptures that say "un-believers" are saved.

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8



JLB

If I might be so bold.....I'm sure you're on that same list somewhere. You condemn yourself. My guess? some form of idolatry.

But anyway....I said if they are truly saved....then ceased to believe....they are still saved. No one can snatch them from the Fathers hands.

Of course there is the argument they were never saved...in that case they were never truly a believer.

Actually I think the list presented by JLB above is about a continued lifestyle. Not a list to be pointed at to show one who isn't saved. If it is then JLB as well as ALL christians are in serious trouble with none having salvation.

 

[smaller]

JLB asked "If a believer stops believing, are they still a "believer", though they have stopped believing."

I would say they are not believers.....but if they were once truly believers, as in truly saved, then they are still saved.

Believers are ALWAYS first in line for the internal attacks of our adversary. Is it so unusual that the tempter, the deceiver succeeds in blinding the flesh to Gods Irrevocable Eternal Life? Not at all. Many have fallen in their flesh to this lie, falsely thinking that they can escape God in Christ. That can't happen.

So, IF a believer comes before God in Christ in this blindness, is it just THEM involved? Never. We all bear this temptation, of the tempter, in our own sorry hides. Gal. 4:14. And this working God in Christ came PRECISELY to DESTROY, and WILL.

Whether a believer sees this or not will not matter. There will fall on every believer, DIVINE JUDGMENT.

The believer, even if FALLEN in unbelief by our adversary in their own sorry hides, will GO FREE of that CAPTOR.

That is the PROMISE of the Gospel.

 

[smaller]

Being an acceptable practice in this forum is not verification that the conclusions which you draw from those scriptures are valid.

Many have an unusual practice of vainly trying to "eliminate scripture" by context and they think it makes sense.

It doesn't. Every Word of God and His Apostles are true and they ALL stand, irrevocable.

I don't know what you're talking about. What are "the imaginary sifters of non-existing contextual applications"?

The OSAS believers believe what is written. Others try to wipe out those scriptures. It's a strange practice.

What is a "sectarian orthodox"?
What practice are you talking about?
Exactly what "postures and positions" Do you think so many Protestants reject? (Sitting? Standing? Kneeling?)
I have no idea what you are training to communicate.

Believers who are blindly intent on eternally destroying other believers can NOT SEE. That's really all there is to it.

 

[Cygnus]

The believer, even if FALLEN in unbelief by our adversary in their own sorry hides, will GO FREE of that CAPTOR.

I would think every believer...who's been around for a while has a moment of disbelief or perhaps even a season.

 

[JLB]

Believers are ALWAYS first in line for the internal attacks of our adversary. Is it so unusual that the tempter, the deceiver succeeds in blinding the flesh to Gods Irrevocable Eternal Life?

False!!!

18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18

 

[JLB]

I would think every believer...who's been around for a while has a moment of disbelief or perhaps even a season.

Yes, or even a season... but if they do not continue in unbelief they can be grafted back in.

20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:20-23



JLB

 

[JLB]

Believers who are blindly intent on eternally destroying other believers can NOT SEE. That's really all there is to it.

I have not seen anyone on this thread who is trying to destroy other believer's.

Everyone that teaches what the bible says, so as to turn those who have strayed from the truth, back again, are desiring to see them saved.

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20


Those who teach OSAS, lead people away from the truth.

They teach liberty, but they themselves are slaves of corruption.


18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:18-22

“A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”



JLB

 

[Cygnus]

Yes, or even a season... but if they do not continue in unbelief they can be grafted back in.

20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:20-23



JLB

Sooooooooooo, everytime you have a moment or season of disbelief...God kicks you out? Really?

I hope you understand that I'm not believing in your works saves....continue in His goodness... salvation Gospel.

Just for the record, you took Romans 11:20-23 out of context. The verse is not presented as "personal" salvation but rather what God was doing with Isreal and the Gentiles. What you did was take similiar sounding words and applied them wrong.

 

[smaller]

I have not seen anyone on this thread who is trying to destroy other believer's.

Please. This is always your intention. It is the intention of all believers flesh to see that way. To destroy one another.

The flesh of all of us IS and REMAINS contrary to the Spirit. As much as we vainly try to justify it, it will not happen. Gal. 5:17 is FIXED.

We can claim our flesh is not contrary to and against the Spirit. And in that claim, we are the pawn of a liar.

 

[smaller]

I would think every believer...who's been around for a while has a moment of disbelief or perhaps even a season.

We would all do well to understand that we DO have adversaries that come against our own flesh, continually, from every direction conceivable. Eph. 6:11-13 makes this battle abundantly clear.

One of those "deceptions" is that that battle ground lies outside of us. It doesn't. The battle ground always has been INTERNAL, in our own flesh.

We are to question EVERY THOUGHT, and bring EVERY THOUGHT into the submission of God in Christ. Not every thought we have IS OUR OWN. We do have thoughts that are imposed upon us by the TEMPTER.

2 Cor. 10:5

 

[Cygnus]

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20



JLB

How should we look at this verse? The verse is kinda just out there placed at the end of James...not much if any context surrounding it.
What does wanders from the truth mean?
A non-believer who has heard the truth and walked away from it?
A believer who has wandered away from the truth?
...or perhaps a beiever who has fallen into sin, perhaps drugs that will eventually cause their death...turns a sinner from the error of his way (drug addition in this instance) will save a soul from death...What kind of "death" is mentioned here?

JLB, scripture should always be used in its proper content and text.

 

[smaller]

One of the most open PRINCIPLES that Jesus taught, is that where the Word is sown, our adversary, Satan, comes to STEAL from us all.

So, where was THE WORD sown in Israel? From the TEMPLE LEADERS. And, rightfully, these MEN bore the brunt of this battle, but did not and could not SEE IT.

Jesus severely berated the religious leaders FIRST AND FOREMOST precisely for this reason.

When we believe, we become a MAGNET of the adversary. Mark 4:15 is meant to show us this principle. That Satan is moved, like wicked clockwork, to steal, to RESIST, to tempt, everyone who handles the Word, with the intention to BLIND us all.

How does the LAW work for example? Paul show us, openly, upon his own flesh. Where the Word of the LAW, "do not covet" was sown, THEN every manner of concupiscence came and imposed contrary thoughts upon his own MIND. Romans 7:7-13 shows us the same PRINCIPLE that Jesus taught in Mark 4:15.

And everyone who can NOT see this happens, has been blinded to this internal reality by that working of Satan in their own minds.

Paul calls this the FLESH, but shows us what is behind the matters. It is not the flesh, but what the flesh is SUBJECTED to, by our adversary, the tempter, the RESISTOR of Gods Words, who DOES enter the heart to steal, to tempt.

Everyone who reads Mark 4:15 and says in their heart, "this does not happen to me because I am a believer" is in fact hearing the VOICE of the adversary in their OWN MIND, lying to them, deceiving the flesh.

 

[JLB]

How should we look at this verse? The verse is kinda just out there placed at the end of James...not much if any context surrounding it.
What does wanders from the truth mean?
A non-believer who has heard the truth and walked away from it?
A believer who has wandered away from the truth?
...or perhaps a beiever who has fallen into sin, perhaps drugs that will eventually cause their death...turns a sinner from the error of his way (drug addition in this instance) will save a soul from death...What kind of "death" is mentioned here?

JLB, scripture should always be used in its proper content and text.

Eternal death.

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20


Does the phrase "save a soul from death" mean anything to you?


Here's how James begins his letter:

12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:12-15


Here is what he goes on to say...


4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

and ends with -

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20


JLB

 

[smaller]

Those who say they have no war are not looking IN the right direction:

Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.