Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

[smaller]

Also needless to say, I find it challenging to be too overly concerned with regard to what you might think.
Have a nice day.

Yes, you are actually "forced" to insist that God must destroy believing sinners when the opposite is taught in the scriptures pertaining to believers. 1 Tim. 1:15.

Anything that doesn't fit the auto-destroy mode doesn't work for for works salvation folk. They can't hear anything else, but that. "Must destroy." It's one of the most annoying features of works christianity. The only things that run through their minds always ends in OR ELSE.

 

[JLB]

Yes, you are actually "forced" to insist that God must destroy believing sinners when the opposite is taught in the scriptures pertaining to believers. 1 Tim. 1:15.

Anything that doesn't fit the auto-destroy mode doesn't work for for works salvation folk. They can't hear anything else, but that. "Must destroy." It's one of the most annoying features of works christianity. The only things that run through their minds always ends in OR ELSE.

If a believer stops believing, are they still a "believer", though they have stopped believing.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13



JLB

 

[smaller]

If a believer stops believing, are they still a "believer", though they have stopped believing.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

JLB

IF it were only the faith of the believer, you'd have a point. But that's never the case:

1 Thessalonians 5:24
Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

2 Timothy 2:13
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

 

[JLB]

IF it were only the faith of the believer, you'd have a point. But that's never the case:

1 Thessalonians 5:24
Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

2 Timothy 2:13
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

Concerning the believer, and his part to "believe and be saved", if he stops believing is he still a believer?



JLB

 

[smaller]

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

Concerning the believer, and his part to "believe and be saved", if he stops believing is he still a believer?

JLB

Why is it you NEVER consider the Faith of God in Christ in these equations? Why? It's plain as day to see, in writing. Why ignore? Why is it that some people MUST go into auto-condemn, never considering the FAITH OF GOD IN CHRIST for those He has called? Why?

I'll tell you why from the scriptures. Because believers have evil present with them that blinds their eyes to the obvious. Romans 7:21.

 

[JLB]

Why is it you NEVER consider the Faith of God in Christ in these equations? Why? It's plain as day to see, in writing. Why ignore? Why is it that some people MUST go into auto-condemn, never considering the FAITH OF GOD IN CHRIST for those He has called? Why?

I'll tell you why from the scriptures. Because believers have evil present with them that blinds their eyes to the obvious. Romans 7:21.

Don't change the subject, just try and answer the obvious question you are attempting to ignore.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

Concerning the believer, and his part to "believe and be saved", if he stops believing is he still a believer?

Eternal life is given to believers, not unbelievers.

The context and point Jesus is teaching concerns persecution, specifically from the Jews, but in a modern day scenario, it is prevalent concerning Islam, the other religion that comes from Abraham's offspring and is also Monotheistic.

Jews who would turn to Christ, were persecuted by unbelieving Jews, to make the "turn away" or "depart from" Christ under the threat of death.

This is the context.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:12-13

This temptation was persecution, as represented by the heat from the sun.


20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Matthew 13:20-21

Concerning the persecution that comes during the great tribulation, Jesus said...

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
Matthew 24:9-13


It doesn't get any clearer than that.

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:13-14


I wonder how many will renounce Jesus Christ, during the persecution of the great tribulation, because they sought to preserve their life, and were taught OSAS, in which no matter what they did, even renouncing Jesus Christ, they would still be saved.


But he who endures to the end shall be saved.




JLB

 

[Chopper]

Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

I see two types of Christians. The ones who have answered the call of God to believe by faith in Jesus the Son of God. Who have confessed their sin, repented, and have the evidence of a changed life thru works that God accepts, and that Jesus has committed Himself to that individual.... John 2:23 "Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs that he was doing.
2:24 But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people
2:25 and needed no one to bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in man."

The second type is the person who goes to a crusade like Billy Graham's, is charged up from the singing, popular person giving a testimony, and Dr. Graham's message, go's forward and makes a profession of faith. In time though, because of indwelling sin the cares and friendship with the world and wordly things, pry loose his profession and as time goes on, he's no different than any other sinner....He will loose what he thought was salvation....

Romans 7:21 "So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,
Rom 7:23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members."

His enemy? Indwelling sin.

 

[JLB]

Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

I see two types of Christians. The ones who have answered the call of God to believe by faith in Jesus the Son of God. Who have confessed their sin, repented, and have the evidence of a changed life thru works that God accepts, and that Jesus has committed Himself to that individual.... John 2:23 "Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs that he was doing.
2:24 But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people
2:25 and needed no one to bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in man."

The second type is the person who goes to a crusade like Billy Graham's, is charged up from the singing, popular person giving a testimony, and Dr. Graham's message, go's forward and makes a profession of faith. In time though, because of indwelling sin the cares and friendship with the world and wordly things, pry loose his profession and as time goes on, he's no different than any other sinner....He will loose what he thought was salvation....

Romans 7:21 "So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,
Rom 7:23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members."

His enemy? Indwelling sin.

I agree with your assessment, and example.

However, I ask you to consider that their may be more than just "two" types of Christians.

Especially since Jesus gave us more than two types in the parable of the Sower.

I respect your beliefs, that come from a sincere faith and diligent study, and because you have shown love and kindness to all on this Forum. Your experience as a Pastor that has worked with people for years, is to be respected and honored.

So it is with an attitude of meekness that I ask you to consider this.


Blessings to you and your household.


JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

You've never done that. Or I would have remembered it.

Ah! You're the one who's been following me around in every forum I've ever participated in for the last 15 years and taken notes on every time some OSAS advocate posted the same 15 verses!

So, in general, what do those 15 verses teach if not eternal security? Just summarize, to save time.

No verses stand alone. They were all written in some context. (Considering the context of a verse is part of doing that exegesis thingy you ask for, JTLYK.) By lifting them out of their context and repackaging them as if they were a matching set of dishes, you have fabricated an illusion that appears to teach the OSAS error.
To teach OSAS in reality, those verses must agree with ALL of scripture including, for example, what God said at Eze.18 or, for example, Heb, 6.

Heb 6:4-8 (RSV) For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.
For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.

To be "enlightened" was the early church's term for what is today expressed by the word, "saved."
To be a "partaker of the Holy Spirit" is to be "baptized in" or "filled with" the Holy Spirit.
To commit apostasy is to abandon the faith and to become an unregenerate sinner again. Such a person becomes like a piece of land that only grows thorns and thistles; it will be burned. (Guess for what "be burned" is a metaphor. )

So, there. You have pestered me into wasting my time by trying to show you some of "the rest of the story" which I expect you will either dismiss out of hand or rationalize away by applying the canned "Responses to Make Reality Go Away" which you have memorized. Oh well..........

iakov the fool




By reading the words posted above, you have chosen to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. (Hi ya! )
The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that may result. 2
No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. Enjoy the rest of your day.

 

[Jim Parker]

Yes, you are actually "forced" to insist that God must destroy believing sinners when the opposite is taught in the scriptures pertaining to believers. 1 Tim. 1:15..

I have no idea what you are talking about. ALL believers, without exception, still sin. It is a lifelong struggle. I have NEVER (not once) suggested that God will "destroy" anyone, let alone a believer who is struggling with sin.

Anything that doesn't fit the auto-destroy mode doesn't work for for works salvation folk. They can't hear anything else, but that. "Must destroy." It's one of the most annoying features of works christianity. The only things that run through their minds always ends in OR ELSE.

If, by "works Christianity" you mean that a person can earn eternal life by doing good works, I reject that and I have NEVER suggested that such nonsense had anything to do with Christianity.
So, I don't know what you are talking about and it appears that you don't either.

 

[smaller]

Don't change the subject, just try and answer the obvious question you are attempting to ignore.

The subject matter is every jot and tittle about the Faith of God in Christ to those He has called. This sight is always missing from those who claim salvation can be lost.

1 Corinthians 1:9
God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Believers shouldn't have to be convinced of His Faithfulness OR His Abilities to complete what HE started:

Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Where is your accounting of His Faithfulness? His Abilities to complete?

As usual. Strangely missing.

 

[WIP]

Ah! You're the one who's been following me around in every forum I've ever participated in for the last 15 years and taken notes on every time some OSAS advocate posted the same 15 verses!

No verses stand alone. They were all written in some context. (Considering the context of a verse is part of doing that exegesis thingy you ask for, JTLYK.) By lifting them out of their context and repackaging them as if they were a matching set of dishes, you have fabricated an illusion that appears to teach the OSAS error.
To teach OSAS in reality, those verses must agree with ALL of scripture including, for example, what God said at Eze.18 or, for example, Heb, 6.

Heb 6:4-8 (RSV) For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.
For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.

To be "enlightened" was the early church's term for what is today expressed by the word, "saved."
To be a "partaker of the Holy Spirit" is to be "baptized in" or "filled with" the Holy Spirit.
To commit apostasy is to abandon the faith and to become an unregenerate sinner again. Such a person becomes like a piece of land that only grows thorns and thistles; it will be burned. (Guess for what "be burned" is a metaphor. )

So, there. You have pestered me into wasting my time by trying to show you some of "the rest of the story" which I expect you will either dismiss out of hand or rationalize away by applying the canned "Responses to Make Reality Go Away" which you have memorized. Oh well..........

iakov the fool




By reading the words posted above, you have chosen to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. (Hi ya! )
The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that may result. 2
No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. Enjoy the rest of your day.

I personally hesitate to consider Scriptural study to be a waste of time. It is pretty obvious that there are a couple different understandings of what the Word teaches and even though it seems that for some this process of Christian apologetics is an attempt to score points, I believe its purpose is to dig into the word of God to get to a higher understanding of the Truth and grow in faith.

 

[smaller]

I have no idea what you are talking about. ALL believers, without exception, still sin. It is a lifelong struggle. I have NEVER (not once) suggested that God will "destroy" anyone, let alone a believer who is struggling with sin.

Of course you do or you wouldn't be claiming non-OSAS. I know the posture that you carry on this subject in any case. It is by no means OSAS unless described as OSAS to torture in fire for non-compliance. Even without "specific" determinations as to whom at this time. I'd call it the fancy theological dancing footwork of most of ancient orthodox who are prone to speaking out of both sides of mouth.

If, by "works Christianity" you mean that a person can earn eternal life by doing good works, I reject that and I have NEVER suggested that such nonsense had anything to do with Christianity.
So, I don't know what you are talking about and it appears that you don't either.

Have you suddenly switched horses?

1 John 5:11
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

2 Timothy 2:13
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

 

[Jim Parker]

It doesn't get any clearer than that.

OSAS apparently causes selective blindness.
I'm going to post a rough draft of some thoughts entitled "The Cult Mentality". (No I'm not calling OSAS a "cult.")
Not sure which section that might belong in.
Comments are welcome.
jim

 

[JLB]

Ah! You're the one who's been following me around in every forum I've ever participated in for the last 15 years and taken notes on every time some OSAS advocate posted the same 15 verses!

No verses stand alone. They were all written in some context. (Considering the context of a verse is part of doing that exegesis thingy you ask for, JTLYK.) By lifting them out of their context and repackaging them as if they were a matching set of dishes, you have fabricated an illusion that appears to teach the OSAS error.
To teach OSAS in reality, those verses must agree with ALL of scripture including, for example, what God said at Eze.18 or, for example, Heb, 6.

Heb 6:4-8 (RSV) For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.
For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.

To be "enlightened" was the early church's term for what is today expressed by the word, "saved."
To be a "partaker of the Holy Spirit" is to be "baptized in" or "filled with" the Holy Spirit.
To commit apostasy is to abandon the faith and to become an unregenerate sinner again. Such a person becomes like a piece of land that only grows thorns and thistles; it will be burned. (Guess for what "be burned" is a metaphor. )

So, there. You have pestered me into wasting my time by trying to show you some of "the rest of the story" which I expect you will either dismiss out of hand or rationalize away by applying the canned "Responses to Make Reality Go Away" which you have memorized. Oh well..........

iakov the fool




By reading the words posted above, you have chosen to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. (Hi ya! )
The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that may result. 2
No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. Enjoy the rest of your day.

Excellent word Brother.

You have not wasted your time, for there are always those who observe these threads, and are seeking the truth, though they may never post or participate. The Lord can lead them to the truth through your post.

Blessings to you.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

Concerning the believer, and his part to "believe and be saved", if he stops believing is he still a believerJLB

Why haven't you provided ANY Scripture that teaches that those who cease to believe cease to be saved?????

Because none exist. And the theory doesn't exist.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"So, in general, what do those 15 verses teach if not eternal security? Just summarize, to save time."

No verses stand alone. They were all written in some context.

Of course they were. So, if none of the verses I provided teach eternal security, just tell me what they ARE teaching then. [Removed demeaning statement. WIP]

(Considering the context of a verse is part of doing that exegesis thingy you ask for, JTLYK.) By lifting them out of their context and repackaging them as if they were a matching set of dishes, you have fabricated an illusion that appears to teach the OSAS error.

So, show me how I've violated "context" in any of the verses I posted.

To teach OSAS in reality, those verses must agree with ALL of scripture including, for example, what God said at Eze.18 or, for example, Heb, 6.

Oh, I see. You pit the verses you think teach loss of salvation against clear Scripture that teaches eternal security. However, the verses I provided are FAR MORE CLEAR about eternal security than the verses any of the loss of salvation provide they think teaches loss of salvation.

So, there. You have pestered me into wasting my time by trying to show you some of "the rest of the story" which I expect you will either dismiss out of hand or rationalize away by applying the canned "Responses to Make Reality Go Away" which you have memorized. Oh well..........

I can't wait to get to the other forum where I specifically addressed ALL of the verses you recently provided and showed how NONE of them addressed loss of salvation.

 

[Jim Parker]

I personally hesitate to consider Scriptural study to be a waste of time. It is pretty obvious that there are a couple different understandings of what the Word teaches and even though it seems that for some this process of Christian apologetics is an attempt to score points, I believe its purpose is to dig into the word of God to get to a higher understanding of the Truth and grow in faith.

I believe the best understanding of 'the Faith" is found in the writings of the early Church.
I believe that it is not a good idea for me to lean on my own limited understanding. Doing so often leads to new versions of the same old heresies.
I believe it is a bad idea to afford the views of every Tom, Dick and Harriet with 4th grade reading skills and a King James Bible (abridged to remove those offensive "Kathlick" books) the same degree of respect as the men who hammered out the essentials of the faith in the first 800 years of the Church.
And I believe my opinion is worth every penny you paid for it.

 

[Jim Parker]

Excellent word Brother.

You have not wasted your time, for there are always those who observe these threads, and are seeking the truth, though they may never post or participate. The Lord can lead them to the truth through your post.

Blessings to you.

JLB

Thanks for the encouragement.
Blessings
jim

 

[smaller]

Taking snippets of scripture out of their context and weaving them into a fabric that you imagine

and btw, the last time I checked citing scripture for statements of fact in this forum is perfectly acceptable.

The posture that says scriptures clear statements are "eliminated" after they are run through the imaginary sifters of non-existing contextual applications doesn't exist to eliminate scripture. Although that IS the primary practice of sectarian orthodoxy and also why so many Protestants REJECT their postures and positions.