Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

[JLB]

I can't say I've studied it. What do you think it refers to?

For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it,to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 2 Peter 2:21

Notice it doesn't say "holy commandments", but holy commandment.

The Holy Commandment of the Gospel, that we are all called to obey is: Repent.

Peter uses the phrase - turn from the holy commandment...

Repent means to turn to God.

If you are called to turn to God, then by default you are called to turn from Satan as your lord.

The way that your express this obedience of faith, concerning the Gospel is to confess Jesus as Lord.

This is what grants the believer/obeyer of the Gospel, the forgiveness of sins.


This is plainly what the Lord Jesus Christ taught to and commissioned Paul to do.

15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:15-18

Repent is about being transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God.

It's about changing who you serve, as your Lord.

The Gospel of the kingdom is about changing the kingdom your are in, by changing the Lord you serve.
The Gospel is God's call to humanity, to "come out of hiding", in darkness, and to come into the light, the kingdom of light.

He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. Colossians 1:13-14


These that Peter refers to here in 2 Peter 2:20-22 have turned from the holy commandment, or as it were, they have "un-repented" or have turned back to serving their former master and lord.


James says it this way -

Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. James 4:4


JLB

 

[JLB]

Going back into the world and going to Hell are two entirely different things, and are addressed differently by God. So once again, it is impossible for a child of God -- one who has been born from above -- to go to Hell or lose their salvation. As to how God deals with Christians who sin, there is sufficient scripture to show that He does not overlook sin.

More opinion, with no scripture.

 

[Hospes]

The Holy Commandment of the Gospel, that we are all called to obey is: Repent.

Not to minimize the importance of repentance, but of all the Good News of Jesus Christ, why is the call for repentance the singular Holy Commandment? Didn't John the Baptist call people to repentance and in Acts that call was shown to fall short of the Gospel? (Acts 19)

Do you think maybe the following passages give a bit fuller understanding the "Holy Commandment"?

Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard. At the same time, it is a new commandment that I am writing to you, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining. (1 John 2:7-8 ESV)

I rejoiced greatly to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as we were commanded by the Father. And now I ask you, dear lady—not as though I were writing you a new commandment, but the one we have had from the beginning—that we love one another. And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it. (2 John 1:4-6 ESV)

And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us. (1 John 3:23-24 ESV)​

 

[mutzrein]

No sir.

So what was it you were saying about Pharaoh then?

 

[smaller]

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

Please show me a scripture that says apart from Christ, we still have eternal life.

JLB

I will as soon as you show proof that Christ leaves those He Gathered.

Romans 8:
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[smaller]

I'm saying that a person can be born again, having become a child of God, then turn away from Christ, or go back into the world, though they have been born again.

I use the example of angels, who are sons of God, being cast down to hell.

JLB

Are we to conclude then that God burns His Own sons alive forever? Like Molech of the O.T. with an eternal bent? I think not, and that you have a severe miss read on that particular sight, as such being "sons" of God.

2 Peter 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

I see zero mention of "sons" therein. The devil and his messengers are angels. Wicked/Evil ones made for eventual destruction. Not "sons."

Were we to take your sight logic dictates that God Himself spawned evil sons. Won't compute. Sorry.

9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

 

[JLB]

Are we to conclude then that God burns His Own sons alive forever? Like Molech of the O.T. with an eternal bent? I think not, and that you have a severe miss read on that particular sight, as such being "sons" of God.

2 Peter 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

I see zero mention of "sons" therein. The devil and his messengers are angels. Wicked/Evil ones made for eventual destruction. Not "sons."

Were we to take your sight logic dictates that God Himself spawned evil sons. Won't compute. Sorry.

9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Angels are referred to as sons of God.

• When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy? Job 38:7

• Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. Job 1:6

• There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. Genesis 6:4

2 Peter 2;4 is a direct reference to Genesis 6, and specifically mentions the time frame to be during Noah's time.

• For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 2 Peter 2:4-5

Jesus plainly calls angels; sons of God.

• 34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:34-36

So, the answer to your question:

Are we to conclude then that God burns His Own sons alive forever?

The answer is Yes!


God is the Father of all creation, and is the Father of spirits.

Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paidthem respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? Hebrews 12:9


JLB

 

[smaller]

Angels are referred to as sons of God.

The term itself means messenger. It implies no sonship whatsoever unless specified.

• There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. Genesis 6:4

People, yes. There are no angelic spirits that have sex with women and procreate human beings. To procreate humans both parents must be human in order to do so.

2 Peter 2;4 is a direct reference to Genesis 6, and specifically mentions the time frame to be during Noah's time.

• For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 2 Peter 2:4-5

Jesus plainly calls angels; sons of God.

And there is nothing in the above that says sons of God were then or will be angels in hell. If anything that whole dialog flirts with the infamous serpent seed heresies.

• 34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:34-36

Yes, key phrase. IN the ressurection we will have imperishable undefiled eternal bodies. Like/similar or equal to Holy Angels. Mark 12:25

So, the answer to your question:
The answer is Yes!

Not even close.

What you think you are seeing isn't even there.

God is the Father of all creation, and is the Father of spirits.

Again, NOT. God is NOT the father of Satan/devils nor is Satan Jesus' evil twin brother. And there is not one single reference in the entirety of the Bible that says God is going to burn His own children forever in hell. That is non-existing.

 

[JLB]

The term itself means messenger. It implies no sonship whatsoever unless specified.

Angels are referred to as sons of God.

Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:34-36


When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy? Job 38:7


Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. Job 1:6


There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. Genesis 6:4

You'll have to do better than just stating your opinion.


Please show me where in the old testament that humans were called sons of God.

Adam who was directly created by God Himself is the only one who is called a son of God, in the old testament.

Here is the geology from Adam to Noah.

Please show me where a person was called a son of God.

A son of God is someone who was directly created by God Himself, or was begotten of God, as Jesus was the only begotten of the Father.

Sons of God was an OT reference to angels.

Those who are worthy to attain to the resurrection and that age, will have become sons of God and will be "like" the angels.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Again, NOT. God is NOT the father of Satan/devils nor is Satan Jesus' brother. And there is not one single reference in the entirety of the Bible that says God is going to burn His own children forever in hell. That is non-existing.

Please post a scripture proving that God did not create Lucifer/Satan.

And there is nothing in the above that says sons of God were then or will be angels in hell. If anything that whole dialog flirts with the infamous serpent seed heresies.

Here is the scriptures that validate my statement.

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness,
2 Peter 2:4

and again

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

Satan and his angels, are angels that were once in heaven, and served God, as God is their creator.



JLB

 

[smaller]

Please post a scripture proving that God did not create Lucifer/Satan.

Please provide a scripture that says God is the Father of Satan. There is no such statement.

God can create anything and not be 'the Father of same.' Being The Creator does not make The Creator the Father of everything. That is pantheism.

Here is the scriptures that validate my statement.

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness,
2 Peter 2:4

Your claim using the above is that God cast or will cast His sons into hell. That my friend is NOT in your citing or any of the other citings you've tried. I'll have to call that sight a FAIL and unsubstantiated by scripture. Nor is God the Father of Satan nor is God the Father of everything. IF you are trying this to prove that God looses His children you'll have to try harder to find substantiation because there is none to state that in the scriptures anywhere.

John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

 

[Brother Mike]

My point is, not all who believe in Jesus are genuine believers. They might act like it for a while but will eventually sink back into a life of sin that you have noted and not enter the Kingdom no matter what great Christian endeavors they did when they thought they were saved and others thought the same thing such as the following....

This is the big issue I have with this excuse from OSAS. Who in the heck is the Judge of who is true Christians and who is not?

Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
(Php 3:13-15 KJV)

Paul confesses........... I myself have not apprehended. Good chance I am not perfect minded about a lot of things. You can't "ACT" like a Christian thinking you are, trying to make changes without actually being one. If a person gets off the path and we all do, we leave that area where we can't be tempted more than we can bare. In that place Satan can throw something at us that gets us off track for years. What point is that person not saved? They may not look saved, but ....................... Jesus said He does not judge according to the flesh.

2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Joh_7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.



1) Be fruitful in Knowledge.
2) Make sure you doing the plan and will of God.

So it really looks like it comes down to a person that is actually saved is at least making some attempt to find God's plan and do the will of God following Jesus as Lord.

It can look really messed up, but it's according the the person's heart, Is Jesus Lord enough to set your own life aside and do the will of God?

We have thousands of ministers who have no business being ministers. No Anointing, no power, dead worthless preaching. In their minds they are doing the plan of God. We don't know the will of God and God is mysterious helps nobody, they they drone on and on.

They are doing something though, despite the very little fruit they produce, they still have some fruit. They missed their grace and calling, but their mind is on the Lord in their understanding.

Even those of us who think we are getting it right, are not getting everything right. Our heart is right though.

A person who has never had a thought about doing the will of God though, just gets dunked in water, then I would have to question if they ever made that choice for Jesus.

If a person produced fruit, but turned from the Lord to where there is ZERO fruit on that tree, the Lord said put dung around it, giving it a chance, then if not, cut it down and cast it into the fire.

Jesus has to remain Lord in some capacity. No matter how misdirected a person might be.

Mike.

 

[JLB]

Please provide a scripture that says God is the Father of Satan. There is no such statement.

God can create anything and not be 'the Father of same.' Being The Creator does not make The Creator the Father of everything. That is pantheism.

He is the Father of spirits.

Are angels spirits?

And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.” Hebrews 1:7

Satan was Lucifer, and was in authority over 1/3 of the angels.

That's why they are called "his" angels.

When Lucifer was cast out, his angels were cast out with him, and he became the enemy, or adversary, which is what Satan means.

The only question is; Who created Lucifer/Satan? God or Satan himself?

Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? Hebrews 12;9

God is the Father of spirits.

Is Satan/Lucifer a spirit?

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, Ephesians 2:1-2

God is the Father of spirits and the Creator of all spirits.

God created Lucifer as a spirit to bear His light, but he has fallen from heaven, and has become the adversary, Satan.

“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
Isaiah 14:12-15

This scriptures shows us Lucifer, the bearer of light, the son of the morning, will end up in hell.



JLB

 

[smaller]

He is the Father of spirits.

Are angels spirits?

And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.” Hebrews 1:7

Satan was Lucifer, and was in authority over 1/3 of the angels.

That's why they are called "his" angels.

When Lucifer was cast out, his angels were cast out with him, and he became the enemy, or adversary, which is what Satan means.

The only question is; Who created Lucifer/Satan? God or Satan himself?

Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? Hebrews 12;9

God is the Father of spirits.

Is Satan/Lucifer a spirit?

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, Ephesians 2:1-2

God is the Father of spirits and the Creator of all spirits.

God created Lucifer as a spirit to bear His light, but he has fallen from heaven, and has become the adversary, Satan.

“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
Isaiah 14:12-15

This scriptures shows us Lucifer, the bearer of light, the son of the morning, will end up in hell.

JLB

You wrote a lot there to NOT answer if God Is The Father of Satan JLB.

Yea or Nay will suffice.

 

[JLB]

You wrote a lot there to NOT answer if God Is The Father of Satan JLB.

Yea or Nay will suffice.

God is the Father of all spirit's. If you disagree, then post the scripture that shows us otherwise.

God is the Father of Lucifer, as He is the Father of all spirits. Hebrews 12:9

Lucifer became God's enemy, and is now called Satan.

Likewise, Christians are sons of God by faith in Jesus Christ, but can indeed become God's enemy.

Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. James 4:4


JLB

 

[smaller]

This is the big issue I have with this excuse from OSAS. Who in the heck is the Judge of who is true Christians and who is not?

And I have an issue with people who dangle believers over the potential flames of hell as if God was really Blackbeard the Pirate making them perform or walk the plank.

[
Paul confesses........... I myself have not apprehended.

Indeed. From Phil. 3 no less.

Of course not but that by no means equates to Paul dangling himself over the flames of eternal torture either.

When Paul said he had not apprehended we might say "what" was it he was in pursuit of first. He was clearly trying to apprehend or attain to the resurrection of the Body for himself, which had not yet transpired. Has nothing to do whatsoever with "potential eternal hell" for himself. Phil 3:21 is clearly the target trajectory therein.

Jesus has to remain Lord in some capacity. No matter how misdirected a person might be.

Mike.

And I grant the fact that there are many people who did not serve God under the fear of being in hell, they would not serve whatsoever. To me such are merely the servants of saving their own hides under fear or duress, and are no servants at all. No different than a victim of a robber holding a gun to their heads and them adequately performing by forking over their merchandise to save themselves.

If I've ever met a typical believer, they would go along these lines....

Well, IF there is no punishment in eternal hell for non-performance, THEN I can do anything I want to and not worry about it.

I can only say that God knows what you really want to do in any case of threats so we're really not fooling Him in the deal anyway. If people don't do what they really want to do because of the possibility of hell, I'd say they are just hiding their heart from God anyway.

 

[smaller]

God is the Father of Lucifer, as He is the Father of all spirits. Hebrews 12:9

And that statement puts you quite out of touch with orthodox christianity.

Sorry. But thanks for showing your cards on the matter.

For the record I'll take the opposite sight. That Satan was a temporary creation of God, wicked, evil, elemental spirit (a spirit who is OPPOSED to the Holy Spirit and not really a spirit in the Holy Spirit sense whatsoever) to be used and discarded in eternal hell when the time comes to chuck him and his.

And God is NOT Satan's Father NOR is Satan Jesus' evil twin brother.

And we wonder why christian theology is so interesting? The above is part of that reason. It's also part of why I'm not a Mormon because they have a similar belief.

IF God Is The Father of SATAN, then God help us all because the math points directly to The Father for the son, Satan.

 

[JLB]

And that statement puts you quite out of touch with orthodox christianity.

You so far, have provided no scripture, but only opinion.

Unless you provide scriptures that show us someone else, other than God created Lucifer, then God is the Father of all spirits and all of creation.

Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? Hebrews 12:9




JLB

 

[JLB]

And God is NOT Satan's Father NOR is Satan Jesus' evil twin brother.

Jesus created all things, whether in heaven or on earth.

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. Colossians 1:16

Principalities and powers are associated with spiritual host's of wickedness in heavenly places.

12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Ephesians 6:12


JLB

 

[mutzrein]

Hey JLB. Doesn't look like you have responded to my last post. It referred to an earlier post of yours regarding Pharaoh and I'd like to understand what you were meaning by it. Thanks