Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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After that Adam and Eve sinned, and brought death upon the human race (Rom 5:12). All humans beings are now born "dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph 2:1-5) and are therefore spiritually dead. Without the New Birth no one can be a "son of God" or a child of God (Jn 1:12,13; 3:3-8).And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. Genesis 2:7
And I have an issue with people who dangle believers over the potential flames of hell as if God was really Blackbeard the Pirate making them perform or walk the plank.
Indeed. From Phil. 3 no less.
Of course not but that by no means equates to Paul dangling himself over the flames of eternal torture either.
When Paul said he had not apprehended we might say "what" was it he was in pursuit of first. He was clearly trying to apprehend or attain to the resurrection of the Body for himself, which had not yet transpired. Has nothing to do whatsoever with "potential eternal hell" for himself. Phil 3:21 is clearly the target trajectory therein.
And I grant the fact that there are many people who did not serve God under the fear of being in hell, they would not serve whatsoever. To me such are merely the servants of saving their own hides under fear or duress, and are no servants at all. No different than a victim of a robber holding a gun to their heads and them adequately performing by forking over their merchandise to save themselves.
If I've ever met a typical believer, they would go along these lines....
Well, IF there is no punishment in eternal hell for non-performance, THEN I can do anything I want to and not worry about it.
I can only say that God knows what you really want to do in any case of threats so we're really not fooling Him in the deal anyway. If people don't do what they really want to do because of the possibility of hell, I'd say they are just hiding their heart from God anyway.
I don't know if the Word performance is a good word. Jesus said my yoke is lite. I have never been in agreement with preaching sin and hellfire to get people to the Lord. I preach Jesus is awesome, wants you healed, wants you prosperous and is a good shepherd who's sheep are well taken care of.
It's like marriage. You go out of your way for your spouse and do things because you want something in return later, just trying to keep the peace, and so on, or do you really respect your spouse and do those things because you just love them as Christ Loves the Church?
I don't steal because I don't want to go to hell, I could care less about hell.
I don't steal because My Lord does not approve of it, and I know the laws of reaping and sowing and the thing I stole will cost me more than what I would have paid to buy it.
I think it's like you said, a heart thing and the Lord knows the heart and hearts can change on the Lord.
Blessings.
Thus quoting the genealogy of Christ to prove that everyone is a son of God is completely at odds with Scripture. Jesus said "Ye MUST be born again!" because all men are born sinners, separated from God, and in fact enemies of God, and under the control of "the prince of the power of the air".
If my wife thought I could burn her alive forever for disobedience to me I'm pretty sure there would have been no marriage to start with.
Ya know when Jesus said to be as Perfect as God, (Matt. 5:48) that one always throws me for a loop for some odd reason. But I do know from experience that I can only take so much of God in my present state. Thinking the larger enchilada is going to have to come on at a later date, like in the next world.
I tend to distrust believers who are lurking in the wood to pounce on me. And there are quite a substantial number of them. Comes with the territory I heard.
Since God is Love, then we by nature should be love. Take no thought done wrong to us, turn the other cheek, feed your enemy. give, give and give. Be spent.
I am convinced we are gods. We are in God's Class, created like Him. Now I am not speaking to the ignorant that equate "GOD" with ability, I speak to the learned that understand "God" as a class and not the "Lord God"
Evolution has done it's best to make man believe he is just a beast, some random miracle through time in a cosmic chaos called the universe.
So agree or not, follow along. We are gods, but with flesh, programed by the World to follow the flesh. Flesh is selfish, someone being perfect like God is not.
So, someone that can be saved, but then lost according to the scriptures we find. Is it not wanting to continue in your revealed nature?
Folks do a great disservice preaching we are not gods, they side with evolution.
I don't know, if by nature just like the Father in His class, obeying him and doing what He would do, then how does a person knowing this decide to get "UNSAVED" by just deciding to go against their nature being a beast again and weak man? I understand flesh is always going to get in the way, but why would a heart change not striving to please God?
This whole OSAS thing has issues,
who really wants to find out and write the rest of us from Hell? Not me.
Blessings Brother, let's love our wives according to the grace given.
Hey JLB. How are you going on the Pharaoh question?
This is a hypothetical situation I just wrote, and is my opinion.
I did add the scripture from Romans 9:22-24
I don't believe anyone will have eternal life life, outside of Christ.
However, I don't know who will or will not be outside of Christ in the end.
Thanks JLB
Do you believe Pharaoh was predestined to go to hell?
Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
To me it would seem impossible to permanently do away with a "believer" because technically speaking we've already been personally done away with in Christ. There really isn't a believer remaining of themselves to do away with permanently in hell for whatever reason. We just get fooled into thinking there is.
I agree with you, but somewhat of an aside. You and I would probably have a lot of fun with this kind of stuff but we always get cut off.
I'd say maybe more like programmed in the flesh by the devil.
Uh, because deception by adverse agents IS a reality? If the devil is going to hell permanently (he is) then I might suppose his biggest lie is to convince believers they are (or MIGHT BE) going along with him if they don't behave PERFECTLY?
My wife is very much "like" God. She sees everything and knows everything. At least that's what I say to her just so she knows how I see her God like status. She doesn't believe me though. heh heh
My wife is pretty awesome also, Mike get's way out there and she has the pole to reel me back. Scripture says for this purpose the Son of God was manifest that He might destroy the Work of the devil the Devil was a sinner from the start, a liar, thief, murderer. It would seem a person would Need Jesus to escape the clutches of the evil one and without Jesus then your at the devils will in whatever he wants to do.
Anyway, this OSAS Topic has gotten boring through the years. Hell is a real place and anyone who has Jesus stupid enough to test to see if you can actually end up there is so crazy, the topic has no merit but what the looney bins would discuss.
Stick with Jesus, always. Makes sense.
Mike.
Hey JLB. How are you going on the Pharaoh question?
This is what I've seen from experience. When believers think that God in Christ loves them but MAY, as a possibility, burn them alive forever (or eternally annihilate them if you prefer) they question the sincerity of that Love, and they question their own abilities, as they should in such a format.
And one of 2 things happen. They either become extremely intolerant, belligerent, self justifying lying hypocrites, OR they eventually realize that they are not fit to make themselves sinless (they never were capable to start with) and they just give up regardless of the supposed consequences because they know for a fact they can't do it. And the whole construct falls apart and they turn anti-christian because they question the whole construct.
1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
All part of the journey I'd suppose. Personally I stay away from other believers who think God in Christ might burn them alive forever. That space also comes with a LOT of legalism and a boatload of phony positions. Again, known by 'experience' in the realms.
Based on the following scripture, what is the reason these folks on His left hand, were cursed and sentenced to burn in the everlasting fires of Hell?
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:41-46
This is what I've seen from experience. When believers think that God in Christ loves them but MAY, as a possibility, burn them alive forever (or eternally annihilate them if you prefer) they question the sincerity of that Love, and they question their own abilities, as they should in such a format.
And one of 2 things happen. They either become extremely intolerant, belligerent, self justifying lying hypocrites, OR they eventually realize that they are not fit to make themselves sinless (they never were capable to start with) and they just give up regardless of the supposed consequences because they know for a fact they can't do it. And the whole construct falls apart and they turn anti-christian because they question the whole construct.
1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
All part of the journey I'd suppose. Personally I stay away from other believers who think God in Christ might burn them alive forever. That space also comes with a LOT of legalism and a boatload of phony positions. Again, known by 'experience' in the realms.
I do not believe scripture sees just people in any equation of people. See Mark 4:15 for one example of many of the same.
Just look to WHO is being addressed
And if any really desire an honest look at the subject matter they WILL find the devil implicated in their own sins. 1 John 3:8. So, I'd suggest the separation that is being shown is going to strike a LOT closer to home than most 'believers' are able to see. And they can not see because of the other party.
I guess we can thank JLB for coming up with something brilliant like this........ sigh....
Could you explain what you mean by this?
Yes, that's the root of your whole theology, as it shows in all your writings.
You blame the devil for everything, and don't seem to take responsibility for personal choices.
Each of us, are responsible for our own deeds we have done in our body, in this life.
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 2 Corinthians 5:10
Thank God, He is merciful and we can call on Him in time of trouble.
He will forgive us, if we come to Him and confess our sins.
However, there are also many warnings in scripture, that teach us of the consequences of practicing the works of the flesh.
JLB
1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
we are talking in this thread about a True Christian losing their Salvation. The title of the thread is stupid enough as no True believer can just "lose" their salvation.
I guess we can thank JLB for coming up with something brilliant like this........ sigh....
What is sin though? Violation of light given. Not everything is sin to everyone.
How do we look at Job? Perfect love cast out fear, Job obeyed God out of wrong fear, and Satan turned that against him. If your kids curse God in their heart, they die Job, you die, God will kill you all.
Did God just have a bad wicked day and give the devil permission to murder the mans kids, or did everything Job fear come on him as we are told to fear not more than we are told not to steal or do any other sin except worship idols. (Job 3:25)
Apparently, if God had no choice but to give Satan his rightful place (give no place to the devil) else God would be unjust, then Job's error cost him, but God's mercy at the end helped him.
How much then is our honest error to be accounted? We don't know everything, but that does not stop spiritual laws from working.
If God just had a bad day and had the mans kids murdered for no reason, then no further examination needed, but Elihu said Job was rewarded according to his ways.
Almost as good Brother.It's almost as brilliant as the post tribulation doctrine.
JLB