Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

[smaller]

If faith means never knowing if you are saved or only guessing, why even bother with it?

The things that really irk me about this crowd of perpetual doubters is that they, personally, are "always" securely saved while trumpeting their dire alternatives to everyone else. It's just another angle of hypocrisy openly demonstrated. Such seldom come out of it either. There is a very certain form of pseudo godlike megalomania when any person thinks they can "possibly eternally condemn" some other believers (for just about any reason.) Such just found a trap door that is set in scriptures to reveal their own hearts, but they can't see it.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

[ezra]

Amen!!!

Let's focus on Him, and set our minds on things above. He loves us more than we will ever know.

That is where my confidence is, knowing that He is for us, not against us. We can come to Him with any weakness or sin, or shortcoming.

He is ready and willing to walk with us through anything, if we just come to Him knowing He wants us, and sent His Son to die for us, that we can be with Him for eternity.

However, I also refuse to water down the truth of His word, and make excuses knowing that He will not be partial to me, just because I'm His favorite, [at least that's how He makes me feel].

I know for sure He won't be partial with you, though He loves as His own son.

But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
1 Corinthians 9:27



JLB

God chastises those he Loves (a trip the his wood shed) if a person ignores or says he/she is not being chastised then that makes them a Bas**** i also base my belief on this scripture
1 John 2:19King James Version (KJV)
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
we have a know so salvation if a person is not sure or thinks he is.. chances are they are not. there is wheat and there is tares .to the naked eye its hard to know . hard but not impossible :amen

 

[JLB]

If faith means never knowing if you are saved or only guessing, why even bother with it?

The things that really irk me about this crowd of perpetual doubters is that they, personally, are "always" securely saved while trumpeting their dire alternatives to everyone else. It's just another angle of hypocrisy openly demonstrated. Such seldom come out of it either. There is a very certain form of pseudo godlike megalomania when any person thinks they can "possibly eternally condemn" some other believers (for just about any reason.) Such just found a trap door that is set in scriptures to reveal their own hearts, but they can't see it.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Eternal life is relationship with God and Jesus Christ.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

As long as one continues to remain connected in relationship to Him, to continue to know Him, then they have eternal life.

If someone does not remain [abide] in Him, they will no longer have the eternal life.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

The deception of the enemy, is to raise up teachers that teach a person has eternal life, yet does not have to remain connected to Him in relationship.


Please show me a scripture that says apart from Christ, we still have eternal life.



JLB

 

[Hospes]

Eternal life is relationship with God and Jesus Christ.
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3
As long as one continues to remain connected in relationship to Him, to continue to know Him, then they have eternal life.
If someone does not remain [abide] in Him, they will no longer have the eternal life.
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
The deception of the enemy, is to raise up teachers that teach a person has eternal life, yet does not have to remain connected to Him in relationship.
Please show me a scripture that says apart from Christ, we still have eternal life.

Indeed it would be a heretical teaching to claim one can have eternal life apart from being in Christ. But to believe that God keeps in Christ - for eternity - those who he has given new life does not teach this.

Given the following verse, it seems to me God initiates, maintains, and keeps our salvation all the way through eternity. Thoughts?

And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Romans 8:30 ESV)​

 

[JLB]

Indeed it would be a heretical teaching to claim one can have eternal life apart from being in Christ. But to believe that God keeps in Christ - for eternity - those who he has given new life does not teach this.

Given the following verse, it seems to me God initiates, maintains, and keeps our salvation all the way through eternity. Thoughts?

And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Romans 8:30 ESV)​

Your reading into the text, that which you have preconceived.


28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Romans 8:28-30

God foreknew beforehand, who would choose Christ, and it is those, that He chose in Him... to be predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. The transformation process begins, when we are in Him.

... just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:4-6

God does not force us to choose Christ.

God did, however, foresee and foreknow, who would choose Christ, to be in Him, and it is those who chose to be in Him, that God chose to be conformed to the image of His Son, that we who chose Christ, and are conforming to His image, might be among the many brethren of whom Christ is the Firstborn.



JLB

 

[smaller]

The deception of the enemy, is to raise up teachers that teach a person has eternal life, yet does not have to remain connected to Him in relationship.

Enemies like this one?

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Please show me a scripture that says apart from Christ, we still have eternal life.
JLB

It's always a sight of God in Christ keeping His Promises. Not people who don't believe them.

Pretty sure you believe the promise. Is Jesus faithful to keep His Promise to you, even if you don't?

If salvation was dependent on the person I'd suggest the person is their own savior.

 

[ezra]

Eternal life is relationship with God and Jesus Christ.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

As long as one continues to remain connected in relationship to Him, to continue to know Him, then they have eternal life.

If someone does not remain [abide] in Him, they will no longer have the eternal life.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

The deception of the enemy, is to raise up teachers that teach a person has eternal life, yet does not have to remain connected to Him in relationship.


Please show me a scripture that says apart from Christ, we still have eternal life.



JLB

 

[Hospes]

Your reading into the text, that which you have preconceived.

It would be a great favor if you could explicitly point out where and how I have read into the text. Thanks.

God foreknew beforehand, who would choose Christ, and it is those, that He chose in Him... to be predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. The transformation process begins, when we are in Him..

JLB, if I understand you correctly you are saying the passage equates God's foreknowledge of us with his knowing we would independently make the determinative decision to choose him. (Please correct me if I misunderstand you.) If so, could you explain what in the passage - or any other passage - that makes this belief unavoidable?

God does not force us to choose Christ.

Agreed. But I think he calls us to himself by being irresistible; like Lydia, he wins over our will by opening the eyes of our hearts to his truth. (Remember my tent analogy in Post #15?) Do you understand - I'm not asking you to necessarily agree - what I am meaning?

Finally, I am a bit confused. You believe a person can lose their salvation; but if God foresees who will independently make the determinative decision to choose him, why would he save someone just to have them lose it because of their disobedience? Wouldn't he have foreseen they would fall away and not given them salvation to begin with?

 

[mutzrein]

At the judgement seat, Pharaoh stands before The Lord Jesus, and The Lord says to him:

I don't hold against you these transgressions for which I hardened your heart, even though I foresaw you would indeed not let my people go, when I sent my servant Moses to demonstrate my power before you.

I foresaw that you would have indeed let them go, after the frogs came up from the river, however I had to harden your heart to the point you would not let my people go even until I sent the plague to take all the firstborn sons in Egypt.

So now, because I hardened your heart, I can have mercy on you for the entire dealings I had with you and your nation.

Now... lets talk about the rest of your life....

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Romans 9:22-24

JLB

So what are you saying JLB? That Pharaoh was granted eternal life outside of Christ?

 

[Malachi]

I guess, that the phrase 'true Christian' would indicate that the person asking the question considers that there are also un-true Christians. How would you then define a 'true Christian'?

A true Christian is one who has been born from above, born of God, born again, experienced the New Birth. Just as a human baby cannot be "unborn", a child of God cannot be unborn. So to answer the question posed "Is it possible for a true Christian to love their salvation?" The Bible answer is "Absolutely not".

 

[Malachi]

I guess, that the phrase 'true Christian' would indicate that the person asking the question considers that there are also un-true Christians. How would you then define a 'true Christian'?

A true Christian is one who has been born from above, born of God, born again, experienced the New Birth. Just as a human baby cannot be "unborn", a child of God cannot be unborn. So to answer the question posed "Is it possible for a true Christian to love their salvation?" The Bible answer is "Absolutely not".

 

[JLB]

It's always a sight of God in Christ keeping His Promises. Not people who don't believe them.

Pretty sure you believe the promise. Is Jesus faithful to keep His Promise to you, even if you don't?

If salvation was dependent on the person I'd suggest the person is their own savior.

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

Please show me a scripture that says apart from Christ, we still have eternal life.


JLB

 

[JLB]

A true Christian is one who has been born from above, born of God, born again, experienced the New Birth. Just as a human baby cannot be "unborn", a child of God cannot be unborn. So to answer the question posed "Is it possible for a true Christian to love their salvation?" The Bible answer is "Absolutely not".

Please share any scripture you may have to support your position.


It's not whether a son of God came become unborn.

It's whether it's possible for a son of God to go to hell, because of disobedience.

Lucifer is God's son, and is still an angel.

The sons of God who were disobedient during the days of Noah, continued to be sons of God, though they were cast down to hell.

Peter correlates this truth in reference to warning the fate of false teachers.

He uses the example of the sons of God, who were disobedient, during the days of Noah as an example to us, not to be disobedient.

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 2 Peter 2:4-5

Peter closes with a warning to those who, go back into the world, after they escaped it's corruption, and have known the way of righteousness.

For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:20-22

...it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.


Peter uses the example of sons of God being cast down to hell, to warn us not to live in disobedience, and unrighteousness.


JLB

 

[ezra]

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

Please show me a scripture that says apart from Christ, we still have eternal life.


JLB

there is NONE if one is not attached to the true vine .there is no fruit because there was NO ROOT ====NO Salvation jesus way truth life no man comes to the father but THROUGH HIM. as i stated i do tend lean more toward eternal security . But SAYING that i do not believe . we can live in 24/7 sin and say Grace covers us. yes we will sin and sometimes like the prodigal son go out and wallow in it. ya know slop the pigs eat with the pigs .but at some some point we should come to our senses and realize how much better it was. Abiding in Christ and trying to live the Christian life. that is where our faith (trust) comes in by abiding in him . just like when we was living at home as a child. we was dependent upon our parents for food clothes shelter and any other life problem that came against us. if we had a banged up knee our parents gave us first aid. to try to live out side the vine is like a baby in development trying to survive outside the mothers womb with out the umbilical cord attached.:amen

 

[Hospes]

It's not whether a son of God came become unborn. It's whether it's possible for a son of God to go to hell, because of disobedience.

Just to be clear, are you saying a person given new life in Christ and made a child of God through Christ may also go to hell and yet remain a child for God for eternity while in hell?

Lucifer is God's son, and is still an angel. The sons of God who were disobedient during the days of Noah, continued to be sons of God, though they were cast down to hell.

Just to be certain again, are you saying when it speaks of sons of God or children of God in the Old Testament they are equivalent to those called in the New Testament born again in Christ and children of God ?

Peter correlates this truth in reference to warning the fate of false teachers.

Agreed. He was writing of "false teachers among you"; emphasis on false. He calls the teachers false, indicating they are not truly born again. Of course, their teaching is false also, but Peter is not describing their teaching here. He calls them false. In what way would they be false other than that they claimed to be Christian but in reality were not?

For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:20-22

...it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

JLB, I think I see where you misunderstand the passage. In English we have the single word "know" and related words "knowledge", "known", and "knowing". In NT Greek there are two - maybe more - words translated for the knowledge of something. One refers to a knowing something in your mind and one refers to knowing something in a much deeper and experiential sense. Example: I may study sky diving until I am a world renowned scholar on it, but until I actually parachute from a plane there is a type of knowledge of skydiving I have yet to gain. In the passage above where it reads "through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ", it is the type of knowledge gained by study. When Jesus said "And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.", he used the other Greek word for knowledge. The false teachers Peter wrote about had head-knowledge of Jesus and his commandments, but the passage does not claim they knew Jesus in the way that indicates having eternal life.

It's a fun and insightful word study to examine all the different places the two different Greek words are used. (The Strong's numbers for them is 1922 and 1097.) Full disclosure and wanting to avoid false pretense: I know very little of NT Greek, but I've learned to muddle my way through it a bit.

Hope this helps.

 

[JLB]

Just to be clear, are you saying a person given new life in Christ and made a child of God through Christ may also go to hell and yet remain a child for God for eternity while in hell?

I'm saying that a person can be born again, having become a child of God, then turn away from Christ, or go back into the world, though they have been born again.

I use the example of angels, who are sons of God, being cast down to hell.

Every single person, or being in hell is God's child, because He is the Father of all spirits.

Just to be certain again, are you saying when it speaks of sons of God or children of God in the Old Testament they are equivalent to those called in the New Testament born again in Christ and children of God ?

Those who have been born again, and are God's children, have the hope of becoming like the angels, who are sons of God.

Now in this life, we have the hope of salvation.

IOW, we are saved by faith... we will have obtained the reality of salvation, and be like the angels, if we attain to the resurrection.

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:34-35


Paul said it this way -

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?
25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25

Why does one still hope for what he has already obtained.

We will have obtained the salvation of our soul, at the end of our faith, not the beginning.

...receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9


Jesus said it this way -

Those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13


JLB

 

[JLB]

JLB, I think I see where you misunderstand the passage. In English we have the single word "know" and related words "knowledge", "known", and "knowing". In NT Greek there are two - maybe more - words translated for the knowledge of something. One refers to a knowing something in your mind and one refers to knowing something in a much deeper and experiential sense. Example: I may study sky diving until I am a world renowned scholar on it, but until I actually parachute from a plane there is a type of knowledge of skydiving I have yet to gain. In the passage above where it reads "through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ", it is the type of knowledge gained by study. When Jesus said "And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.", he used the other Greek word for knowledge. The false teachers Peter wrote about had head-knowledge of Jesus and his commandments, but the passage does not claim they knew Jesus in the way that indicates having eternal life.

It's a fun and insightful word study to examine all the different places the two different Greek words are used. (The Strong's numbers for them is 1922 and 1097.) Full disclosure and wanting to avoid false pretense: I know very little of NT Greek, but I've learned to muddle my way through it a bit.

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
2 Peter 2:20-21

Know, known, knew - Strong's G1921 - epiginōskō

1. to become thoroughly acquainted with, to know thoroughly
   
   1. to know accurately, know well
      
2. to know
   
   1. to recognise
      
      1. by sight, hearing, of certain signs, to perceive who a person is
         
   2. to know i.e. to perceive
      
      
   3. to know i.e. to find out, ascertain
      
      
   4. to know i.e. to understand
      

it seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus, that you may know the certainty of those things in which you were instructed. Luke 1:3-4

and again

27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.
28 Then they drew near to the village where they were going, and He indicated that He would have gone farther.
29 But they constrained Him, saying, "Abide with us, for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent." And He went in to stay with them.
30 Now it came to pass, as He sat at the table with them, that He took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them.
31 Then their eyes were opened and they knew Him; and He vanished from their sight. Luke 24:27-31


These that Peter describes, are those who have escaped the corruption of the world, by hearing and knowing the Gospel Message.

....they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,...

Peter emphasizes this by using the title Savior.

Knowledge is Strongs # 1922, which is like know, knew, known [#1921]

...and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, Colossians 3:10

epignōsis - Strongs # 1922

precise and correct knowledge

1. used in the NT of the knowledge of things ethical and divine
   

These had turned from the holy Command that was given them.


For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.


Do you know what this "holy commandment" refers to?


JLB

 

[Hospes]

Do you know what this "holy commandment" refers to?

I can't say I've studied it. What do you think it refers to?

 

[JLB]

So what are you saying JLB? That Pharaoh was granted eternal life outside of Christ?

No sir.

 

[Malachi]

I'm saying that a person can be born again, having become a child of God, then turn away from Christ, or go back into the world, though they have been born again.

Going back into the world and going to Hell are two entirely different things, and are addressed differently by God. So once again, it is impossible for a child of God -- one who has been born from above -- to go to Hell or lose their salvation. As to how God deals with Christians who sin, there is sufficient scripture to show that He does not overlook sin.