Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

[GodsGrace]

OSAS is the doctrine of frustrating difficulty. It has to explain away so many plain scriptures.
This one, particularly, seems to be the Achilles heal of all sects of OSAS:

"6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:6,9 NASB)

Note that Jesus is talking about REAL believers, not fake ones. 'Believe' really does mean 'believe', not 'didn't really believe'. So grasping for that argument is out. And in regard to these real believers, Jesus says it's better to remove that which causes the real believer to stumble SO THEY WON'T GO TO HELL. But how can he say that if true believers can not go to hell under any circumstances?

See how plain Jesus' words are? Non-OSAS is not the one making this difficult. OSAS is the one making this difficult by insisting on grasping for lengthy and unreasonable 'explanations' that make the plain non-OSAS words of scripture not really mean what they so plainly say. But this seems to be the one passage that they can't do that to. Now it's just a matter of honestly acknowledging what Jesus himself so plainly and simply said. There's nothing difficult about it at all. Just read what it says.


I absolutely agree. I was hoping for a more thoughtful response than what I got in post #497. No explanation was given to explain how OSAS can contradict John's words that the city that is 'taken away' is salvation/ eternal life itself, not just an optional reward for well behaved believers. The 'taking away' John is speaking of is the taking away of eternal life itself, because to have the promise of the city taken away is to be consigned to the very hell OSAS swears you'll never see:

"...if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book."

15Outside (of the city) are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying."

"8“...the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”"

(Revelation 22:19 NASB, Revelation 22:15 NASB, Revelation 21:8 NASB bold, underline, and parenthesis mine, italics in original)

It's impossible for OSAS to say the city is only an optional reward for the believer, and that to not be in it means you still have salvation/ eternal life. It has to take away the clear teaching in Revelation about the city to say what it does. Which, ironically, causes the very thing it claims can not happen to the believer.

I went back and read 497 and also one post before that.
It seems to me that much of the problem is, of course, in interpretation
For instance Hebrews 7:25 cannot be understood correctly unless it is read in conjunction with the old priesthood, as explained slightly in 7.24.

I've said many times that the N.T. is a COMPLETE THOUGHT and cannot be picked apart verse by verse.
Jesus original intention MUST BE understood.
His original intention was to come here to SAVE US.
From what?
Was His trip worth it just to get us more REWARDS?
Certainly not. Heaven is heaven. Who cares which reward I get or don't get. I'd just be happy to be there!

His trip was for SALVATION. The ONLY understandable reason for Him to have come here to be with us, mere mortals.

Once again, John 3:16.
That whosoever believes in Him should NOT PERISH.

BTW, believes is present tense.

Yes. It does seem so simple.

I've asked a few why they feel it is so important to hang on to this doctrine if, anyway, they don't believe in sinning, but I've never received a real response.

IOW, if I believe I can be forgiven of all sin as long as I'm under Jesus' umbrella, WHY would I also have to believe that even if I DON'T care to be under that umbrella anymore, I'm still saved? The only reason I can think of is because I want to sin, not care about forgiveness, and take full advantage of God's grace.
Then what does the word CONDEMNATION mean????

Sorry if I used you to explain to others.

Wondering

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I went back and read 497 and also one post before that.

I actually meant #496, lol. So the one before 497 is the one I was referring to.

For instance Hebrews 7:25 cannot be understood correctly unless it is read in conjunction with the old priesthood, as explained slightly in 7.24.

I agree. The author is contrasting the perfect, and therefore, effectual ministry of Jesus with the imperfect and ineffectual ministry of the Levites. He's hardly saying Christ's ministry makes it so we can now not believe and we are still covered by his ministry. In fact, by Hebrews 10 he is exhorting his audience to not give up their confidence (their faith) in the promise:

35Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

37FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE,
HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.

38BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH;
AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.

39But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul." (Hebrews 10:35-39 NASB)

I've asked a few why they feel it is so important to hang on to this doctrine if, anyway, they don't believe in sinning, but I've never received a real response.

IOW, if I believe I can be forgiven of all sin as long as I'm under Jesus' umbrella, WHY would I also have to believe that even if I DON'T care to be under that umbrella anymore, I'm still saved? The only reason I can think of is because I want to sin, not care about forgiveness, and take full advantage of God's grace.
Then what does the word CONDEMNATION mean????

Yes, I've wondered the same thing.

 

[GodsGrace]

I actually meant #496, lol. So the one before 497 is the one I was referring to.


I agree. The author is contrasting the perfect, and therefore, effectual ministry of Jesus with the imperfect and ineffectual ministry of the Levites. He's hardly saying Christ's ministry makes it so we can now not believe and we are still covered by his ministry. In fact, by Hebrews 10 he is exhorting his audience to not give up their confidence (their faith) in the promise:

35Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

37FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE,
HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.

38BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH;
AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.

39But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul." (Hebrews 10:35-39 NASB)


Yes, I've wondered the same thing.

Verse 38 says it all.

W

 

[FreeGrace]

OSAS is the doctrine of frustrating difficulty. It has to explain away so many plain scriptures.

Others are of the opinion that the loss of salvation opinion has to explain away so many plain Scriptures.

Scripture doesn't teach both views.

This one, particularly, seems to be the Achilles heal of all sects of OSAS:

"6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:6,9 NASB)

Note that Jesus is talking about REAL believers, not fake ones. 'Believe' really does mean 'believe', not 'didn't really believe'. So grasping for that argument is out. And in regard to these real believers, Jesus says it's better to remove that which causes the real believer to stumble SO THEY WON'T GO TO HELL. But how can he say that if true believers can not go to hell under any circumstances?

Here is where the loss of salvation view must explain away Scriptures. Rom 6:23 and 11:29 are both about God's gifts. 6:23 teaches that eternal life is a gift of God, and 11:29 teaches that God's gifts are irrevocable. Therefore, eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable. But none of the loss of salvation proponents believe that.

Jesus plainly said that those He gives eternal life will never perish in John 10:28. The loss of salvation proponents don't believe that and must explain away what He plainly said.

See how plain Jesus' words are?

Yes, just as clear as Paul's words in Rom 6:23 and Rom 11:29.

Non-OSAS is not the one making this difficult. OSAS is the one making this difficult by insisting on grasping for lengthy and unreasonable 'explanations' that make the plain non-OSAS words of scripture not really mean what they so plainly say.

To say "unreasonable" is one's own opinion.

But this seems to be the one passage that they can't do that to.

When one's opinion is made up, there is no amount of any kind of explanation that will satisfy.

But, here's a short explanation of what Jesus was teaching. His style was hyperbolic and hypothetical.

If one takes His words literally, then dismemberment and self mutilation are ways to be saved, which is totally illogical and unreasonable. But that's what you're left with, if taking His words literally.

It's also possible that Jesus' use of "hand, foot, eye" suggest what a person does, where he goes and what he gazes on. These things can be hindrances to the message about Jesus and coming to faith in Him, the only condition for receiving eternal life.

The Bible is very clear about the only condition for eternal life is faith in Jesus Christ.

Now it's just a matter of honestly acknowledging what Jesus himself so plainly and simply said. There's nothing difficult about it at all. Just read what it says.

Difficulty arises when one takes hyperbole and forces a literal meaning to it. And explaining away other Scriptures that very plainly teach that eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable, and that those Jesus gives eternal life to will never perish.

 

[FreeGrace]

JLB said: ↑

• Believe for a while = Saved for a while.

These believed "something", but not saving belief. Jesus is able to keep a true believer in saving belief of him.

JLB is correct that Luke 8:13 is about believing the gospel, given what He said in the immediately preceeding verse: "lest they believe and be saved". That is the context for v.13.

However, he is incorrect to assume that salvation is lost if one ceases to believe.

Hebrews 7:25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Correct. And this verse doesn't address the condition of Luke 8:13 and "believing for a while".

 

[JLB]

These believed "something", but not saving belief. Jesus is able to keep a true believer in saving belief of him.

Hebrews 7:25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

The context of what Jesus taught us, refers to believing the Gospel message of the kingdom, and being saved.

Jesus doesn't change the subject of believe, from one sentence to another.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:11-13

In verse 12, Jesus establishes that "believe" results in being saved.

Inverse 13, the principle doesn't change, with the next group.

There isn't "some other thing" mentioned for this group to believe... it's believing the same Gospel message, in which the seed does germinate and sprout up and begin to grow, signifying that the seed wasn't stolen from their heart, and they did in fact "believe".

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while...

These receive the word and express the joy of salvation, but then later they turn back to unbelieving.




JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Once again, John 3:16.
That whosoever believes in Him should NOT PERISH.

BTW, believes is present tense.

Yes. It does seem so simple.

Not quite so simple. Paul's answer in Acts 16;30-31 to the jailer's question of "what MUST I DO to be saved?" was to believe (in the aorist tense) and you will be saved. Paul also used the aorist tense in Rom 10:9.

And it even gets a bit more complicated because in Luke 8:13 Jesus used the present tense for "believe" but added "for a while". How would one explain that?

Not only that, but when Jesus said "lest they believe and be saved" in v.12, He used the aorist tense!!

This should immediately eliminate any notion that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved.

If JLB's claim: "believe for a while = saved for a while" were true, then Jesus would have used the present tense in Luke 8:12 and the aorist tense in 8:13. The fact that He didn't refutes his claims.

 

[GodsGrace]

Not quite so simple. Paul's answer in Acts 16;30-31 to the jailer's question of "what MUST I DO to be saved?" was to believe (in the aorist tense) and you will be saved. Paul also used the aorist tense in Rom 10:9.

And it even gets a bit more complicated because in Luke 8:13 Jesus used the present tense for "believe" but added "for a while". How would one explain that?

Not only that, but when Jesus said "lest they believe and be saved" in v.12, He used the aorist tense!!

This should immediately eliminate any notion that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved.

If JLB's claim: "believe for a while = saved for a while" were true, then Jesus would have used the present tense in Luke 8:12 and the aorist tense in 8:13. The fact that He didn't refutes his claims.

How would you say the present tense in the verses you quote? (since they are aorist.)

Wondering

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

OSAS is the doctrine of frustrating difficulty. It has to explain away so many plain scriptures.
This one, particularly, seems to be the Achilles heal of all sects of OSAS:

"6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:6,9 NASB)

Note that Jesus is talking about REAL believers, not fake ones. 'Believe' really does mean 'believe', not 'didn't really believe'. So grasping for that argument is out. And in regard to these real believers, Jesus says it's better to remove that which causes the real believer to stumble SO THEY WON'T GO TO HELL. But how can he say that if true believers can not go to hell under any circumstances?

See how plain Jesus' words are? Non-OSAS is not the one making this difficult. OSAS is the one making this difficult by insisting on grasping for lengthy and unreasonable 'explanations' that make the plain non-OSAS words of scripture not really mean what they so plainly say. But this seems to be the one passage that they can't do that to. Now it's just a matter of honestly acknowledging what Jesus himself so plainly and simply said. There's nothing difficult about it at all. Just read what it says.


I absolutely agree. I was hoping for a more thoughtful response from him than what I got in post #496. No explanation was given to explain how OSAS can contradict John's words that the city that is 'taken away' is salvation/ eternal life itself, not just an optional reward for well behaved believers. The 'taking away' John is speaking of is the taking away of eternal life itself, because to have the promise of the city taken away is to be consigned to the very hell OSAS swears you'll never see:

"...if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book."

15Outside (of the city) are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying."

"8“...the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”"

(Revelation 22:19 NASB, Revelation 22:15 NASB, Revelation 21:8 NASB bold, underline, and parenthesis mine, italics in original)

It's impossible for OSAS to say the city is only an optional reward for the believer, and that to not be in it means you still have salvation/ eternal life. It has to take away the clear teaching in Revelation about the city to say what it does. Which, ironically, causes the very thing it claims can not happen to the believer.

Jethro, I've gone over 30 years with those passages having no meaning to me.
It's like "Thou shalt not Kill".
I won't kill and I know it.
There are certain things inside you that you just know you won't do.
The sad thing here is that you have such a fear of doing all these things yourself that you feel the need to scream it at everyone else, as if we were all like you.
The Bible says we are not good enough to get to heaven on our own.
Therefore we need a Savior.
And that Savior is Jesus.
Now receive Jesus and be saved.

But you say we lose our salvation every day of our lives and have to get resaved everyday, all day, in order to get to heaven.
And hopefully, when we breathe our last breath, we'll be standing on the right side of the tracks.
That sounds more like a gospel of fear rather than a Gospel of Hope in Jesus Christ.

 

[JLB]

JLB is correct that Luke 8:13 is about believing the gospel, given what He said in the immediately preceeding verse: "lest they believe and be saved". That is the context for v.13.

By the same context, in the preceding verse, Jesus teaches believe = saved.

....lest they should believe and be saved.

However, he is incorrect to assume that salvation is lost if one ceases to believe.

The context of believing and being saved is taught by Jesus in verse 12.


Yet, you say, now in verse 13, the context of believing and believing the same Gospel message still applies from verse 12, yet salvation is somehow no longer in the context, which completely violates the initial principle of Jesus teaching.

Please explain, how believing still involves "believing the Gospel", but now for some "reason" no longer involves salvation.


The group in verse 13 believe and are saved, then return to the condition of verse 12, where these did not meet the requirement of believing.

• Believe = Saved
• Believe for a while = saved for a while.

Are you trying to teach us that: believe for a while = saved permanently?


JLB

 

[JLB]

I won't kill and I know it.

The issue isn't whether or not you would kill.

If a person was to threaten your family, child, loved one with death, and you had the means to stop them by killing them first, would you kill them to prevent them from killing your loved one?

The issue is if your were put to the test...

That would be like a teenager telling his teacher that he doesn't need to take the test because he will pass it.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9

But you say we lose our salvation every day of our lives and have to get resaved everyday, all day, in order to get to heaven.
And hopefully, when we breathe our last breath, we'll be standing on the right side of the tracks.
That sounds more like a gospel of fear rather than a Gospel of Hope in Jesus Christ.

He has never said any such thing, and for you to say that only shows you have to be deceitful and lie to prove your own point.



JLB

 

[smaller]

That statement has nothing to do with unclean spirits, but is a reference to people. Read the context.
There has nothing to do with "spirits" as being not of Israel.
JLB

To understand "why" the blinded Israelites were/are enemies of the Gospel (Romans 11:28 ), one only has to observe the enemy of the Gospel.

Mark 4:
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Acts 26:
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

2 Corinthians 4:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2 Corinthians 3:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

When believers don't and can't see the obvious, they themselves are being stolen from, and possibly themselves being returned to the ways of blindness by the adversary. It's something to take seriously. But, it is Gods call when that transpires. Just as Romans 11:8 dictates:

Romans 11:
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day.

The easiest way to discern if a believer sees or not is if they can't see the obvious that is in writing to see. Even though it's set before our own eyes, black on white, to SEE or to HEAR when it's proclaimed. Same problem the Israelites had. A "spirit" was "in their midst" blinding them and causing them to err.

Hosea 4:12
My people ask counsel at their stocks, and their staff declareth unto them: for the spirit of whoredoms hath caused them to err, and they have gone a whoring from under their God.

Hosea 5:4
They will not frame their doings to turn unto their God: for the spirit of whoredoms is in the midst of them, and they have not known the Lord.

Anyone who doesn't recognize that there is a spiritual adversary in play in the Gospel is not paying attentions to The Word, or giving this matter of reality respect. They do so to their own perils of engagements with same.

Were we ourselves "not" affected with this same issue, there would be no call to AWAKE:

Romans 13:
11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

The first work of darkness IS BLINDNESS to the adversary via THEFT of Word exposure of that adversary. And yes, it is real, except to those who can not SEE or HEAR.

Ephesians 5:14
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

 

[smaller]

OK, then this isn't a debate forum. It is an opinion sharing forum.

It is perhaps good to be cognizant that if another doesn't or can't see the same light you may have, which light should be compared to Word for accuracy, it is of God that they do or don't see. It is our own respective hearts that is being reflected by The Word. And yes, believers do reflect differently, obviously.

Hebrews 4:
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

So what do you suppose is being reflected in those who seek to potentially destroy other believers?

That's RIGHT! What is in their own heart. You and I can not stop that reflection from happening. It is in fact of God, what they are being shown in their reflections.

1 Corinthians 12:6
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

 

[JLB]

To understand "why" the blinded Israelites were/are enemies of the Gospel (Romans 11:28 ), one only has to observe the enemy of the Gospel.

Mark 4:
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Acts 26:
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

2 Corinthians 4:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2 Corinthians 3:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

When believers don't and can't see the obvious, they themselves are being stolen from, and possibly themselves being returned to the ways of blindness by the adversary. It's something to take seriously. But, it is Gods call when that transpires. Just as Romans 11:8 dictates:

Romans 11:
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day.

The easiest way to discern if a believer sees or not is if they can't see the obvious that is in writing to see. Even though it's set before our own eyes, black on white, to SEE or to HEAR when it's proclaimed. Same problem the Israelites had. A "spirit" was "in their midst" blinding them and causing them to err.

Hosea 4:12
My people ask counsel at their stocks, and their staff declareth unto them: for the spirit of whoredoms hath caused them to err, and they have gone a whoring from under their God.

Hosea 5:4
They will not frame their doings to turn unto their God: for the spirit of whoredoms is in the midst of them, and they have not known the Lord.

Anyone who doesn't recognize that there is a spiritual adversary in play in the Gospel is not paying attentions to The Word, or giving this matter of reality respect. They do so to their own perils of engagements with same.

Were we ourselves "not" affected with this same issue, there would be no call to AWAKE:

Romans 13:
11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

The first work of darkness IS BLINDNESS to the adversary via THEFT of Word exposure of that adversary. And yes, it is real, except to those who can not SEE or HEAR.

Ephesians 5:14
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

What is the point you are making?


JLB

 

[smaller]

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

I wish that I could convince you that there is 1. the gospel of the kingdom which will be the message during the tribulation. 2. the gospel of the grace of God which is being preached during " the times of the gentiles". But it is not my job to convince(convict) any one of the truth. It is our responsibility to preach the word and it is the Holy Spirit that does the convicting.

With regards to "the tribulation" here is my scriptural understanding of what will transpire:

Isaiah 11:9
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

Habakkuk 2:14
For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

It is these same "waters" above, the waters that are "as" or "like" the waters of Noah, that Jesus spoke of in Matt. 24:37 that Isaiah also speaks of here: Isaiah 54:8-10.

So, yes, I expect we see quite differently. It is the MERCY of God in Christ that will wash away the enemies of the Gospel, in a wonderous manner. And this will be the "aftermath."

Hebrews 8:11
And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

You have heard some define the tribulation in dire terms. I hold an anti-apocalyptic sight for mankind, via Word Disclosures. The opposite of what most people THINK they see in the end time narratives.

As to determinism I believe what God has stated in Isaiah 46:10 that he is accurately foretelling the end from the beginning. God has plan and it will not be frustrated by humans. Does that plan determine which individuals will be saved or damned? I don't find scripture that states that. I do find scripture that those who are saved God has predetermined that they will not see his wrath but his salvation.

Yes, the above is a form of determinism, of which there are many variants among those who concede to Divine Superiority or Sovereignty of God over "all things."

It is my belief that 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 speaks to the mixing of the gospel of the kingdom and the gospel of the grace as strong delusions.

Well, everybody quotes that scripture when they want to try to prove their sight is right. Along with

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

For the record I don't consider resorting to either or both of the above scriptures establishes legitimacy of sights. Every christian cult I've ever ran across uses the above scriptures to manipulate and scare the ignorant and the foolish.

The reason that I believe this is because "the gospel of the kingdom" was revealed in scripture long before Paul received, BY REVELATION, the gospel of grace: Galatians 1:11-12. That revelation is spoken of in Acts 26:15-18.

I cited to you prior, that 1 Peter 1:10-11 establishes that the Spirit of Christ was in the prophets, who prophesied of the GRACE to come upon us in Christ. You would do well to recognize this unilateral working of the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of His Grace, in them all. And not divide them because they speak quite UNIFORMLY in these matters. Which your positions do not recognize.

Paul, in Galatians 2:5-6 tells us of the outcome of his trip to Jerusalem where it was determined that James, John, and Peter was given the gospel of the circumcision and to Paul was the gospel of the uncircumcision given. Is there a difference between circumcision and uncircumcision?

I hold that the Living Word was delivered and carried in the fleshly lineage of Israel, for Divine Showings and Intentions, MANY. And that every Word of God to them, is also for us. Just as Jesus stated in Matt. 4:4 and Luke 4:4, which again, your positions do not seem to be able to recognize.

 

[smaller]

What is the point you are making?

JLB

Quite clearly a couple of things. First of all, your positions want to condemn the blinded. Secondly, to ignore the enemy of the Gospel. I used Romans 11 to show you that with regards to "enemies" of the Gospel, regarding unsaved blinded by the spirit of slumber Israel, that their unbelief will NOT cause them to end up in hell, just as the UNBELIEF OF MOSES did not result in the eternal damnation in hell of Moses, but rather, just as Paul states in Romans 11:26, they shall ALL be saved simply because they are ISRAELITES who are and remain beloved for the sake of their fathers of faith, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Paul's dictates to US as believers is to SHOW THEM GODS MERCY. Not as your position surmises, to condemn them to (possible) eternal hell.

Romans 11:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

I might speculate that a lot of believers will suffer LOSS when they see how ill headed there were in their own blinded flesh life, toward unbelieving Israel, when they ALL show up SAVED, exactly as Paul stated in Romans 11:26.

 

[GodsGrace]

Quite clearly a couple of things. First of all, your positions want to condemn the blinded. Secondly, to ignore the enemy of the Gospel. I used Romans 11 to show you that with regards to "enemies" of the Gospel, regarding unsaved blinded by the spirit of slumber Israel, that their unbelief will NOT cause them to end up in hell, just as the UNBELIEF OF MOSES did not result in the eternal damnation in hell of Moses, but rather, just as Paul states in Romans 11:26, they shall ALL be saved simply because they are ISRAELITES who are and remain beloved for the sake of their fathers of faith, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Paul's dictates to US as believers is to SHOW THEM GODS MERCY. Not as your position surmises, to condemn them to (possible) eternal hell.

Romans 11:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

I might speculate that a lot of believers will suffer LOSS when they see how ill headed there were in their own blinded flesh life, toward unbelieving Israel, when they ALL show up SAVED, exactly as Paul stated in Romans 11:26.

Smaller,
It isn't JLB condeming anyone - he's just stating the word of God.

Who condems us?
Ourselves when we don't trust in Jesus.
God sends no one to eternal separation from Him.
We send ourselves there by not obeying God's rules.

God wishes none to be lost..
It's up to us to adhere to His plan of salvation.


W

 

[WIP]

Jethro, I've gone over 30 years with those passages having no meaning to me.
It's like "Thou shalt not Kill".
I won't kill and I know it.
There are certain things inside you that you just know you won't do.
The sad thing here is that you have such a fear of doing all these things yourself that you feel the need to scream it at everyone else, as if we were all like you.
The Bible says we are not good enough to get to heaven on our own.
Therefore we need a Savior.
And that Savior is Jesus.
Now receive Jesus and be saved.

But you say we lose our salvation every day of our lives and have to get resaved everyday, all day, in order to get to heaven.
And hopefully, when we breathe our last breath, we'll be standing on the right side of the tracks.
That sounds more like a gospel of fear rather than a Gospel of Hope in Jesus Christ.

Wow, that was a twisting of what has been presented!

 

[LovethroughDove]

Okay. I've heard from a lot of you and get what is being discussed here. It doesn't look like the title of this thread, cause true believers will not start to unbelieve.

2 Corinthians 10:5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

Paul is stating that whatever he wrote to us, he wrote it for our own good (as true believers). God's word to our Spirit and flesh will make us obedient to Christ.

Example: Hebrews 6:4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

A believer understands the consequences if they fall away. We won't do it! At the same time, we look to Christ's finished work on the cross and not ourselves. It is a paradox and I understand why people can't get on the same page.

I understand the parable of the sower and seed, cause I was all of the different kinds of people until I was the person with good soil.....able to receive and then grow.

 

[JLB]

Quite clearly a couple of things. First of all, your positions want to condemn the blinded.

"My position"?

Brother please read what the bible says.

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:21-23


...if they do not continue in unbelief.

God will graft them back in, if they do not continue in unbelief.


These are the words written by the Holy Spirit, through the Apostle Paul.

The fair and just God of Heaven, who is impartial, has set this condition of believing for both Jew and Gentile.

For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.



JLB