Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

[dirtfarmer]

Cool.:shades

Judas believed "something", but not (true belief). Maybe he liked some of what Jesus said, maybe he liked to be part of a movement? Who knows. I think he was a: Luke 8:14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature.


The following is for those who are true Christians.
Luke 8:15 But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and be persevering produce a crop.

And, these will not be lost.

hello LovethroughDove, dirtfarmer here

John 17:12 " While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition that the scripture might be fulfilled."
Jesus was referencing Judas Iscariot. John 6:70-71

 

[dirtfarmer]

16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness?18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Hebrews 3:16-18

We know Joshua and Caleb were led by Moses, as well as the children who entered the promised land.


Where does it say Moses didn't enter the Promised land because unbelief.


JLB

Hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

Numbers 20:12 states that God did not permit Moses to "bring this congregation into the land which I have given them"

 

[smaller]

That's just it.

You are lumping Moses in with those whom were rebellious, when the scripture says Moses was faithful in all His house as Christ was faithful.

I'll remind you I was not claiming unbelief of Moses resulted in eternal hell.

By attempting to justify your Gnostic teaching, you are slandering Moses as being unfaithful, saying he was among those who were rebellious, when the scripture says Moses was faithful as Christ was faithful over His house.

Again, it is your position that sends unbelievers to eternal hell. But apparently you make selective exceptions.

Your teaching says Moses and Christ were unfaithful, which is plainly heresy.
Heresies is listed as one of the works of the flesh.

Would suggest you failed to see legitimate critique of your own position.

I cited Romans 9:26 as a counter to your position, not mine.

 

[JLB]

I'll remind you I was not claiming unbelief of Moses resulted in eternal hell.

You were attempting to include Moses with the rebellious, by slandering him, to prop up your Gnostic teaching.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Again, it is your position that sends unbelievers to eternal hell.

Yes, that's my position.

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8



JLB

 

[JLB]

Hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

Numbers 20:12 states that God did not permit Moses to "bring this congregation into the land which I have given them"

Before I address any more of your post's, please answer this question.

Are you a full preterist?


JLB

 

[dirtfarmer]

Before I address any more of your post's, please answer this question.

Are you a full preterist?


JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

You are the 2nd person to ask that.
Does a preterist believe in the rapture of church is future? It is my understanding that a "preterist" believes that Christ came the 2nd time when the temple was destroyed in 70 AD and that the promised kingdom was established then, 2000 years ago. So, no I am not a preterist. A preterist also believes all prophecy has been fulfilled, I believe that there are still prophecies yet to be fulfilled.

You don't have to address any of my post. Not being mean or contrary. You are just as I, you have certain interpretation that are as I not as interpret, but that doesn't make me a "preterist"

There are doctrines that you hold that I could question, but I am not the one that you have to answer to, it is God almighty that we all will answer to during the judgments.

 

[FreeGrace]

Maybe here's the solution.
Maybe you talk too much.

OK, so you weren't really looking for any particular answer. From your opinion of my posts, it seems odd asking for another post.

 

[FreeGrace]

Your slanderous accusation against Moses, fly's in the face of what the Holy Spirit says:

Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. Hebrews 3:1-2

Well, I quoted a number of passages about Moses. Are you denying the truth of those passages?

How is quoting Scripture about Moses a "slanderous accusation"? Rather dramatic, huh.

This show us that the faithfulness of Moses was as the faithfulness of Jesus.JLB

I didn't doubt that. But did Moses get to enter the promised land, or not? And if not, then WHY NOT?

Have any answers for those questions? Yes, I already provided them.

He didn't enter the promised land because he broke faiths with God. Case closed.

 

[FreeGrace]

I don't mean to sound mean.

Came across that way.

What I mean is maybe you can say a lot more with less words.

Kinda like "doing more with less". Right.

 

[FreeGrace]

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:11-13

Believe for a while = Saved for a while.

I keep reading this in your posts, but I've never seen any Scripture that says this. And I noticed that Luke 8:13 doesn't say it, or even suggest it.

So, where is your support?

 

[FreeGrace]

16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness?18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Hebrews 3:16-18

We know Joshua and Caleb were led by Moses, as well as the children who entered the promised land.


Where does it say Moses didn't enter the Promised land because unbelief.

I already gave you all the verses about that. I suggest at least reading my posts before commenting about that which you know nothing.

From post #543:
"Let me inform of what Scriptures say about that event.
Heb 3:19 - So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

OK, did Moses get to enter the promised land? No. Why not? Because of unbelief.
Num 27:12-14
12 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Go up this mountain in the Abarim range and see the land I have given the Israelites.
13 After you have seen it, you too will be gathered to your people, as your brother Aaron was,
14 for when the community rebelled at the waters in the Desert of Zin, both of you disobeyed my command to honor me as holy before their eyes.” (These were the waters of Meribah Kadesh, in the Desert of Zin.)

Deut 32:48-52
48 On that same day the LORD told Moses,
49 “Go up into the Abarim Range to Mount Nebo in Moab, across from Jericho, and view Canaan, the land I am giving the Israelites as their own possession.
50 There on the mountain that you have climbed you will die and be gathered to your people, just as your brother Aaron died on Mount Hor and was gathered to his people.
51This is because both of you broke faith with me in the presence of the Israelites at the waters of Meribah Kadesh in the Desert of Zin and because you did not uphold my holiness among the Israelites.
52 Therefore, you will see the land only from a distance; you will not enter the land I am giving to the people of Israel.”

So, their rebellion from Num 27 is described as "broke faith with Me" in Deut.

And this is actual event and God's response to Moses' rebellion and breaking faith with Him:

Num 20:12 - But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them."

How can there be any meaningful discussion when one side never bothers to read the posts of the other?

 

[smaller]

You were attempting to include Moses with the rebellious, by slandering him, to prop up your Gnostic teaching.
JLB

I was very specific in citing that Moses did not enter into the promised land because of UNbelief. Num. 20:12. Using your standard, do the math. Oh, yeah, I forgot. It's a double standard.

 

[JLB]

So, no I am not a preterist. A preterist also believes all prophecy has been fulfilled, I believe that there are still prophecies yet to be fulfilled.

Thank you for your answer.

You will not here about this again from me.

:nod


JLB

 

[smaller]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

You are the 2nd person to ask that.
Does a preterist believe in the rapture of church is future? It is my understanding that a "preterist" believes that Christ came the 2nd time when the temple was destroyed in 70 AD and that the promised kingdom was established then, 2000 years ago. So, no I am not a preterist. A preterist also believes all prophecy has been fulfilled, I believe that there are still prophecies yet to be fulfilled.

You don't have to address any of my post. Not being mean or contrary. You are just as I, you have certain interpretation that are as I not as interpret, but that doesn't make me a "preterist"

There are doctrines that you hold that I could question, but I am not the one that you have to answer to, it is God almighty that we all will answer to during the judgments.

Thanks for clearing up the above. Using the typical "filters" for these matters it probably puts you in the partial preterist shoes somewhere. There are many forms of partial preterism. But employing the 'two Gospel' premise is usually reserved for extreme full preterism. It's their lynchpin belief. Sights of eschatology do vary among full preterists.

 

[JLB]

I was very specific in citing that Moses did not enter into the promised land because of UNbelief. Num. 20:12. Using your standard, do the math. Oh, yeah, I forgot. It's a double standard.

So Moses walked with God and knew Him, and spoke with Him face to face, and because he made a mistake and struck the Rock instead of spoke to it, you somehow believe that this places Him in the company of men who reject God by rejecting His leaders that He placed in authority over the children of Israel, all in a vain attempt to justify your Gnostic teachings.

20 And the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying, 21 “Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment.” Numbers 16:20-21

This is what The Lord said about those who rejected Him.

Are you claiming this is what the Lord said about Moses and Aaron?


You are showing everyone a text book example of not rightly dividing the word of truth, and why you claim that Satan dwells in everyone's flesh.

But the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelite's, you will not bring this community into the land I give them.” Numbers 20:12 NIV


Failing God in one act of impatience, to perform a task exactly as He prescribed, so as to show forth a perfect type of Christ, is incomparable to living a sinful life practicing the works of the flesh.

No one that has presented the argument against OSAS, has ever made the claim that God sends a person to hell for making a mistake.

Yet, you know that, of course. Your are just trying to undermine the plain truth of the scriptures, in a useless attempt to lump Moses together with those who fall into unbelief and depart from Christ, vainly trying to equate unbelief in a task, with unbelief in Christ.

The plain and simple truth is: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16


Those Christians who choose to walk in the flesh, and practice the works thereof, will not inherit the kingdom of God.


JLB

 

[Mike]

Please prove that to be "broken off" as would be understood by 1st Century Jews meant to lose eternal life.

But, go ahead and prove from Scripture that it refers to loss of salvation.

otoh, please prove that He didn't judge all sin on the cross from Scripture.

Unless and until someone can prove that, the point is clear: eternal life is irrevocable.

Well, that's an "interesting" defense when one cannot find evidence for their views in Scripture.

FreeGrace, you are obviously never going to accept what you continuously require of others. In my opinion, it comes off as disingenuous and posturing when you make these demands. You will never read a response that meets what you are challenging others to do. Whether it's because the scripture isn't there, as you claim, or because you refuse to believe them, these kinds of challenges serve no purpose.

I'm not even casting an opinion on your theology. This is about your tactics. They mire the conversation and prevent it from advancing.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Thanks for clearing up the above. Using the typical "filters" for these matters it probably puts you in the partial preterist shoes somewhere. There are many forms of partial preterism. But employing the 'two Gospel' premise is usually reserved for extreme full preterism. It's their lynchpin belief. Sights of eschatology do vary among full preterists.

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here
Partial preterist believe in amillenialism or post millennialism, of which I do not. Premillenialism is what scripture teaches. As to "two gospel" premise, there is the gospel of the kingdom, and also the gospel of the grace of God. I believe that scripture teaches during the 7 year tribulation the bride (church) and bridegroom(Christ) will be "married" and the marriage feast happens then. After the 7 year tribulation the earthly kingdom that was promised to Israel will be established and the 144,000 Jews that are sealed, 12,000 from each tribe, will then become the kingdom of priest and Matthew 28:19-20 will be fulfilled because they will witness to all nations. Also stated in Matthew 24:14, Revelation 14:6, and Revelation 10:7

If you don't understand about the promise to Israel of becoming a kingdom of priest, that doesn't mean that it will not happen and doesn't mean that I am a preterist or partial preterist. I am a follower of Christ and part of his bride, the Church.

It is my understanding that this is a "debate" forum, not an "accusation" forum. We are here to discuss what we believe according to scripture and not what man divides into sects.

The important thing is that I believe that Christ died in payment for the debt of sin that I was guilty of and now that I am in Christ. I am no longer under the power of darkness but have been translated into the kingdom of his dear Son, Jesus Christ. An heir and joint heir with Jesus.

 

[smaller]

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here
Partial preterist believe in amillenialism or post millennialism, of which I do not. Premillenialism is what scripture teaches. As to "two gospel" premise, there is the gospel of the kingdom, and also the gospel of the grace of God. I believe that scripture teaches during the 7 year tribulation the bride (church) and bridegroom(Christ) will be "married" and the marriage feast happens then. After the 7 year tribulation the earthly kingdom that was promised to Israel will be established and the 144,000 Jews that are sealed, 12,000 from each tribe, will then become the kingdom of priest and Matthew 28:19-20 will be fulfilled because they will witness to all nations. Also stated in Matthew 24:14, Revelation 14:6, and Revelation 10:7

If you don't understand about the promise to Israel of becoming a kingdom of priest, that doesn't mean that it will not happen and doesn't mean that I am a preterist or partial preterist. I am a follower of Christ and part of his bride, the Church.

It is my understanding that this is a "debate" forum, not an "accusation" forum. We are here to discuss what we believe according to scripture and not what man divides into sects.

The important thing is that I believe that Christ died in payment for the debt of sin that I was guilty of and now that I am in Christ. I am no longer under the power of darkness but have been translated into the kingdom of his dear Son, Jesus Christ. An heir and Join heir with Jesus.

Most often when believers have two Gospels, one for Jews, one for Gentiles, and they eliminate Peter, James, the Gospels, etc as inapplicable for Gentile believers, it means full preterism. Nothing to do with accusations whatsoever. It's a short path to understanding where a person is coming from, that's all. I happen to be a determinist, but unfortunately whenever anyone thinks of determinism or predestination, the automatically think "Calvinism." But there are more variants of understandings in determinism than mere Calvinism. Just as there are many variants of freewill understandings. These are just "broad" categories that sometimes help move along discussions.

 

[smaller]

So Moses walked with God and knew Him, and spoke with Him face to face, and because he made a mistake and struck the Rock instead of spoke to it, you somehow believe that this places Him in the company of men who reject God by rejecting His leaders that He placed in authority over the children of Israel, all in a vain attempt to justify your Gnostic teachings.

Quit with the gnostic baloney. I don't have a gnostic bone in my body.

Regarding Moses, I'm citing the obvious from Jude:

Jude 1:5
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

And Moses was assuredly "in" this category, per Num. 20:12, and did not enter into the promised land because of "unbelief." NOT, as you say, because he "made a mistake."

Heb. 3 is also abundantly clear that those who did not enter the promised land were those who were in "unbelief."

Heb. 3:
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Now, just so we are clear, I do not believe Moses or any of the rest of them landed or will land in eternal hell. But your position, it would seem, to be FAIR about it, would put Moses in hell. Unless you have a double standard in play on the matters. And I cited Romans 11:26-27, where Paul flat out says that "all of Israel" shall be saved.

Something that you might consider sometime, just for fun, is how is it that how many ever tens of thousands of Israelites came out of Egypt (some estimate as many as 2 million or more), saw first hand, the workings of God, and STILL wound up in UNBELIEF. Doesn't that seem a bit odd to you JLB? Have you ever wondered how in the world that could have possibly happened? To me that is where the real scriptural "meat" of the subject matter is.

But you see, scriptures explain quite clearly what happened to them. In scriptures such as Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 3:14, 2 Cor. 4:4 all clearly explain HOW such a massive amount of unbelief came about. Yet God did not "abandon" Israel. Not at all. Not whatsoever. They will ALL be saved, just as Paul said in Romans 11:26.

Romans 11:11
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

And, if anyone does manage to see from the above, what was REALLY going on, they won't see God just dealing with "Israelite's" in the desert.

They'll see that God was also engaged with Satan, the power of darkness, of evil present with those people, the sin that dwelt in their flesh, the spirit of slumber, the god of this world, the prince of the power of the air, the spirit of disobedience IN the peoples minds and hearts. And that explains how they got into that position of unbelief.

You have to admit the numbers of believers God managed to "generate" out of all those people are pathetically small. What? 2 out of 2 million? IF those are the worlds "odds" of being saved, we might as well all give up on the exercises of faith, and play the lottery instead.

And beyond this, there are deeper principles in play. The natural man can't believe. This is, in the scriptures, known as the "first" or "elder" principle. The second man, the spiritual man, always arrives AFTER the first, natural SPIRITUALLY BLINDED man is saved by faith in Christ. It's a consistent principle throughout the scriptures. First the natural, THEN the Spiritual. 1 Cor. 15:46. This is why Abel was taken over Cain. Why Isaac was taken over Ishmael. Why Jacob was taken over Esau. Why Ephraim was taken over Manasseh. Why Moses was taken over his own elder brother, Aaron. Why David, the second king, was taken over Saul, the first king. Many many many such examples of first the natural, THEN the Spiritual.

It's even why, with Israel, we have a "first" natural man, and THEN Christians. It's also why we have a 1st Covenant, and a 2nd Covenant.