Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

[JLB]

Wow, that was a twisting of what has been presented!

Thank you for being fair and impartial.


JLB

 

[dirtfarmer]

With regards to "the tribulation" here is my scriptural understanding of what will transpire:

Isaiah 11:9
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

Habakkuk 2:14
For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

It is these same "waters" above, the waters that are "as" or "like" the waters of Noah, that Jesus spoke of in Matt. 24:37 that Isaiah also speaks of here: Isaiah 54:8-10.

So, yes, I expect we see quite differently. It is the MERCY of God in Christ that will wash away the enemies of the Gospel, in a wonderous manner. And this will be the "aftermath."

Hebrews 8:11
And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

You have heard some define the tribulation in dire terms. I hold an anti-apocalyptic sight for mankind, via Word Disclosures. The opposite of what most people THINK they see in the end time narratives.


Yes, the above is a form of determinism, of which there are many variants among those who concede to Divine Superiority or Sovereignty of God over "all things."



Well, everybody quotes that scripture when they want to try to prove their sight is right. Along with

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

For the record I don't consider resorting to either or both of the above scriptures establishes legitimacy of sights. Every christian cult I've ever ran across uses the above scriptures to manipulate and scare the ignorant and the foolish.



I cited to you prior, that 1 Peter 1:10-11 establishes that the Spirit of Christ was in the prophets, who prophesied of the GRACE to come upon us in Christ. You would do well to recognize this unilateral working of the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of His Grace, in them all. And not divide them because they speak quite UNIFORMLY in these matters. Which your positions do not recognize.


I hold that the Living Word was delivered and carried in the fleshly lineage of Israel, for Divine Showings and Intentions, MANY. And that every Word of God to them, is also for us. Just as Jesus stated in Matt. 4:4 and Luke 4:4, which again, your positions do not seem to be able to recognize.

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

I will state this again, "If you rightly divide the word of truth" you will use Paul's epistles for church doctrine. Hebrews was written to show to the Hebrew people the superiority of Jesus Christ to the law. John and Peter were apostles to the circumcision, you can find Christians principles in them but you can't establish church doctrine from them.

As to your statement: "I hold that the Living Word was delivered and carried in the fleshly lineage of Israel, for Divine Showings and intentions, MANY. Does this statement apply to the whole old testament, if it does, then where are you carrying your sacrifices, are you doinf work on the Sabbath(the seventh day), when you pray do you face towards Jerusalem?

 

[smaller]

Smaller,
It isn't JLB condeming anyone - he's just stating the word of God.

The orthodox magisterium claims they also see the "only right and Perfect" truth of the scriptures. Are they only right and Perfect in their sights? Uh, no. It's not even possible. Therefore I might suppose that anyone who says, not me, but God, is in fact speaking only from the seat of "me." And not necessarily of Gods Words.

Who condems us?

I don't believe that it is possible for anyone who has called upon Jesus to save them, to be lost.

IF the hearts of other believers have drawn that conclusion, I consider it a work of the enemy of the Gospel being reflected from their own hearts, ala Mark 4:15. But I believe such will be saved regardless of their spiritual sleepiness. IF such believers really think it is beneficial for them to hang themselves or other believers over the pits of hell for some reason, then let them so hang. I don't agree with them, but I do not condemn them.

Ourselves when we don't trust in Jesus.

The "reliability" of God in Christ is not contingent upon faulted man. And this is at the core of the matters. Many people are led to eradicate the effectiveness of God in Christ based upon "faulted" believers. I don't find that theological approach credible whatsoever. God in Christ's Will, Work and Ways do not fall apart based on "the faulty viewers." Were that really the case then there is no God but a God who falls apart and has His Work fall apart, because of faulty man. I think that entire construct is simple nonsense from faulty man sight, from those who seek their own self subscribed justifications where there are none to be found with man to begin with.

Romans 10:3
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

I personally would not expect any of my own self subscribed righteousness is going to be worth a spittle, compared to His Righteousness.

Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

God sends no one to eternal separation from Him.

There is no such state or place of separation. God Is Omnipresent. Alll the folks who think eternal damnation takes place apart from the Presence or Omnipresence of God would do well to read and understand where said torment transpires: Rev. 14:10.

We send ourselves there by not obeying God's rules.

Seriously, that is such a self centered statement. Do you really think anyone has their own power, to bring that fate to themselves? No. God Alone DICTATES these outcomes by His Own Power. There is no person who "sends themselves to eternal hell" nor could you find a single scripture in the Bible that makes such a claim.

God wishes none to be lost..
It's up to us to adhere to His plan of salvation.

Nor do I buy into any fairytales that poor old God just can't seem to get the job done without our cooperations. Seriously some postures in christiandom are just "out there."

IF God in Christ can't get the job done, then WHO CAN???

IF anyone is blind to the Gospel, they are BLIND by the commands of God. Romans 11:8.

IF people in the middle east, to this day, are enemies of Israel, which they ARE, then this too is by the COMMAND of God.

Genesis 16:
11 And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the Lord hath heard thy affliction.
12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

All of the above had ZERO to do with Ishmael and EVERYTHING to do with the Sovereign Dictates of God which can not be changed by ANY man. These are Divine Directives.

Isaiah 55:11
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

And, likewise, IF anyone calls upon Jesus to save them, THEY have been drawn in by God in Christ to DO SO. To even think to condemn such is, to me, an apostasy of faith that the enemy of the Gospel puts in believers hearts.

But that enemy is also there, by the COMMAND of God.

 

[smaller]

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

I will state this again, "If you rightly divide the word of truth" you will use Paul's epistles for church doctrine.

Not even Paul took that direction. I observed with you prior that PAUL himself submitted to the other Apostles and elders of the faith in Acts 15, and they all agreed on matters for ALL believers. They did NOT affirm a TWO GOSPEL position.

Hebrews was written to show to the Hebrew people the superiority of Jesus Christ to the law. John and Peter were apostles to the circumcision, you can find Christians principles in them but you can't establish church doctrine from them.

I'm sorry man, but we really need to pay attention to the fine print. Every doctrinal position in the New Testament is also "established" from the O.T. Paul himself drew HEAVILY from the O.T. to "establish" doctrine because there was no NEW TESTAMENT written to draw from. Listen to Paul below:

Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Our job, if we are really all that interested, is to figure out "how" Paul derived that claim. I believe Paul was SPOT ON in the above and know exactly how and where he drew that understanding from. From the O.T. law and prophets, just as he stated.

As to your statement: "I hold that the Living Word was delivered and carried in the fleshly lineage of Israel, for Divine Showings and intentions, MANY. Does this statement apply to the whole old testament, if it does, then where are you carrying your sacrifices, are you doinf work on the Sabbath(the seventh day), when you pray do you face towards Jerusalem?

You see "the law" as any flesh man sees it. You do not see the law as Paul describes it in Romans 7:14 or in Romans 13:8-10.

You will only see pork and shellfish and animal killing. But that is how all natural men are led to see, meaning THEY DON'T SEE AT ALL and they never will see. The Spiritual matters of the LAW are taught by The Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Carnal minds see carnal things. Carnal minds can see nothing else, but what itself is seeing, carnally.

Did Paul see the LAW of God carnally in 1 Cor. 9:9-10? OR did Paul show us a meaning, Spiritual, that does not even exist in writing, til Paul wrote it?

I'd submit to you that Paul saw the law Spiritually, and derived a Spiritual meaning from a seemingly INSIGNIFICANT law about oxen and plowing and corn.

IF we submit to these matters, Spiritual, then it is incumbent on the Spirit to show us "how" Paul arrived at that conclusion, which the Spirit WILL show, to those who are led by same.

But the carnal mind will go kicking and screaming, in denial, all the way to the end. That's how these things work.

 

[FreeGrace]

How would you say the present tense in the verses you quote? (since they are aorist.)

Wondering

Thanks for the vague response. Which verses? I have already pointed out which words were present and which were aorist in the verses I cited. And I actually looked up the words in my lexicon.

 

[FreeGrace]

By the same context, in the preceding verse, Jesus teaches believe = saved.

....lest they should believe and be saved.

It's clear in v.13 that they did believe, and therefore, were saved. And please don't forget the promise of Jesus in John 10:28; those I give eternal life will never perish.

The context of believing and being saved is taught by Jesus in verse 12.

Please explain why Jesus used the aorist tense in v.12 and the present tense for believe in v.13.

Yet, you say, now in verse 13, the context of believing and believing the same Gospel message still applies from verse 12, yet salvation is somehow no longer in the context, which completely violates the initial principle of Jesus teaching.

Nope. The problem is on your side because of Jesus' use of the aorist and present tense. Your claim is that one must CONTINUE to believe to be saved, yet Jesus noted those who "believe for a while", in the present tense, which negates your entire view.

And, in v.12 He used the aorist tense for "believe and be saved".

Please explain, how believing still involves "believing the Gospel", but now for some "reason" no longer involves salvation.

I never said it "no longer" does. But what your view will not accept is that those who believe HAVE eternal life, per Jesus in John 5:24 and those He gives eternal life to will never perish per John 10:28. Your view does not believe these promises of Jesus.

The group in verse 13 believe and are saved, then return to the condition of verse 12, where these did not meet the requirement of believing.

• Believe = Saved
• Believe for a while = saved for a while.

• This continues to be an assumption only.

Are you trying to teach us that: believe for a while = saved permanently?

JLB

What do you think OSAS refers to?

Eternal life is a gift of God that is irrevocable.

 

[smaller]

I understand the parable of the sower and seed, cause I was all of the different kinds of people until I was the person with good soil.....able to receive and then grow.

Brilliant conclusion LtD! Yes, every step of the parable applies to us. And it is here, we arrive with "good ground" and "a true and honest heart."

Hebrews 10:
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

The reality of God not sparing the 'natural branches' is that no 'natural branch' of ourselves is spared either. We should all expect this type of "pruning" and "cutting off."

 

[smaller]

"My position"?

Brother please read what the bible says.

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:21-23


...if they do not continue in unbelief.

The "natural branches" of no believer is "spared." That's the reality of faith.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jethro, I've gone over 30 years with those passages having no meaning to me.
It's like "Thou shalt not Kill".
I won't kill and I know it.
There are certain things inside you that you just know you won't do.
The sad thing here is that you have such a fear of doing all these things yourself that you feel the need to scream it at everyone else, as if we were all like you.
The Bible says we are not good enough to get to heaven on our own.
Therefore we need a Savior.
And that Savior is Jesus.
Now receive Jesus and be saved.

But you say we lose our salvation every day of our lives and have to get resaved everyday, all day, in order to get to heaven.
And hopefully, when we breathe our last breath, we'll be standing on the right side of the tracks.
That sounds more like a gospel of fear rather than a Gospel of Hope in Jesus Christ.

Is this what you think non-OSAS people believe?
How do you lose your salvation every day and then regain it every day?
This would mean that we're getting to heaven using our own capabilities.
The bible says that no one is righteous. No, not one.
Romans 3:10 from Psalm 14:1-5

No one is getting to heaven by their good works. We all must trust Jesus to get us there. He is our covering.
Mathew 22:11-12 speaks of the Wedding Banquet and how one must be properly dressed to be invited and remain at the banquet.

Mathew 22:13-14 tells of what happens if the person is not dressed properly. They are cast out where there is weeping and knashing of teeth.

Galatians 3:28
Romans 13:14

These also speak about how we are to "wear" Christ. Literally, as a term for getting dressed, we are to "put Him on".

This can also mean to assume the authority, manners and characteristics of that person we are "putting on."
So we are to conduct our lives as closely as possible to His.

If we decide not to do the above, are we still saved?

I understand your point that it would be highly unlikely that one would abandon Jesus after knowing Him, but then why does Paul make provision for this?
For example, why is this verse even in the bible?:
2 Peter: 2:20-22

W

 

[GodsGrace]

Okay. I've heard from a lot of you and get what is being discussed here. It doesn't look like the title of this thread, cause true believers will not start to unbelieve.

2 Corinthians 10:5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

Paul is stating that whatever he wrote to us, he wrote it for our own good (as true believers). God's word to our Spirit and flesh will make us obedient to Christ.

Example: Hebrews 6:4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

A believer understands the consequences if they fall away. We won't do it! At the same time, we look to Christ's finished work on the cross and not ourselves. It is a paradox and I understand why people can't get on the same page.

I understand the parable of the sower and seed, cause I was all of the different kinds of people until I was the person with good soil.....able to receive and then grow.

Hi LtD,
Another questions for you:

Could you please explain the difference between a believer and a true believer?

I've heard this expression used often here and I still don't know what it could mean.
Thanks.

Wondering

 

[dirtfarmer]

Not even Paul took that direction. I observed with you prior that PAUL himself submitted to the other Apostles and elders of the faith in Acts 15, and they all agreed on matters for ALL believers. They did NOT affirm a TWO GOSPEL position.



I'm sorry man, but we really need to pay attention to the fine print. Every doctrinal position in the New Testament is also "established" from the O.T. Paul himself drew HEAVILY from the O.T. to "establish" doctrine because there was no NEW TESTAMENT written to draw from. Listen to Paul below:

Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Our job, if we are really all that interested, is to figure out "how" Paul derived that claim. I believe Paul was SPOT ON in the above and know exactly how and where he drew that understanding from. From the O.T. law and prophets, just as he stated.


You see "the law" as any flesh man sees it. You do not see the law as Paul describes it in Romans 7:14 or in Romans 13:8-10.

You will only see pork and shellfish and animal killing. But that is how all natural men are led to see, meaning THEY DON'T SEE AT ALL and they never will see. The Spiritual matters of the LAW are taught by The Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Carnal minds see carnal things. Carnal minds can see nothing else, but what itself is seeing, carnally.

Did Paul see the LAW of God carnally in 1 Cor. 9:9-10? OR did Paul show us a meaning, Spiritual, that does not even exist in writing, til Paul wrote it?

I'd submit to you that Paul saw the law Spiritually, and derived a Spiritual meaning from a seemingly INSIGNIFICANT law about oxen and plowing and corn.

IF we submit to these matters, Spiritual, then it is incumbent on the Spirit to show us "how" Paul arrived at that conclusion, which the Spirit WILL show, to those who are led by same.

But the carnal mind will go kicking and screaming, in denial, all the way to the end. That's how these things work.

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

If they all agreed in Acts 15, then why is written in Acts 21:20 that there are many thousands of Jews that believe and they are all zealous of the law and in verse 21 " and they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after their customs."If Paul didn't take that direction, then explain 2 Timothy 2:15 "Study to show thy self approved unto God; a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

Where in the old testament did Paul find "the church", the body of Christ that was made of both Jews and Gentiles?
Galatians 3:4:6 " Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ. Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"

Then in the next verse Paul states, " Whereof I WAS MADE A MINISTER, ACCORDING TO THE GIFT OF THE GRACE OF GOD GIVEN UNTO ME BY THE EFFECTUAL WORKING OF HIS POWER." Was Paul made an apostle while Christ was upon the earth, or was it by revelation of Jesus that he was made an apostle?

 

[LovethroughDove]

Hi LtD,
Another questions for you:

Could you please explain the difference between a believer and a true believer?

I've heard this expression used often here and I still don't know what it could mean.
Thanks.

Wondering

Sure. 1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

They believed something of the Christian faith: Want to get closer to God, fellowship with others, helping in the communities, obedience towards God.................something related to Christ, but not believing who Jesus really is. The Jesus who came to earth in the flesh.

 

[GodsGrace]

Thanks for the vague response. Which verses? I have already pointed out which words were present and which were aorist in the verses I cited. And I actually looked up the words in my lexicon.

FreeGrace,
I DID quote your words in post no. 608 so you could reference the scripture, however, I'll repeat it for you here.
First I'd like to say that I don't consider my question (or answer as you call it) to be vague.
If you're telling me that a word is in the aorist tense, and I'm asking you to please state then same word (or verse) using the present tense, it means I'd like to compare the two tenses, as you understand them.

Here's what you originally said which I quoted in 608:

Not quite so simple. Paul's answer in Acts 16;30-31 to the jailer's question of "what MUST I DO to be saved?" was to believe (in the aorist tense) and you will be saved. Paul also used the aorist tense in Rom 10:9.

And it even gets a bit more complicated because in Luke 8:13 Jesus used the present tense for "believe" but added "for a while". How would one explain that?

Not only that, but when Jesus said "lest they believe and be saved" in v.12, He used the aorist tense!!

This should immediately eliminate any notion that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved.

If JLB's claim: "believe for a while = saved for a while" were true, then Jesus would have used the present tense in Luke 8:12 and the aorist tense in 8:13. The fact that He didn't refutes his claims.

So the verses I'd like you to translate into the PRESENT tense are:
Acts: 16:30-31
Romans 10:9
Luke 8:12
Luke 8:13

Believing for a while This is not a difficult thing to do.
Have you ever believed you had the best gal in the world
Until you didn't believe it anymore??
Or you kept your first one ever??

Please compare for me the present and aorist tense for the above listed verses.
I'd like to hear the actual difference in English.

Thanks.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Sure. 1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

They believed something of the Christian faith: Want to get closer to God, fellowship with others, helping in the communities, obedience towards God.................something related to Christ, but not believing who Jesus really is. The Jesus who came to earth in the flesh.

So then, they were NOT believers?

So the next time I'm asked if I'm a believer, my answer should be
"I'm a true believer"

NOT

"I'm a believer".

Since just saying I'm a believer doesn't denote what I believe.
So, Jesus came here to earth for salvation of those who would believe in Him.
But now we must denote in what we believe? Is it not understood? We believe in Jesus for our salvation. No explanation needed.

Think about this. It makes no sense.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him...

Maybe it should be:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever TRULY believes in Him...


Wondering

 

[LovethroughDove]

So then, they were NOT believers?

So the next time I'm asked if I'm a believer, my answer should be
"I'm a true believer"

NOT

"I'm a believer".

Wondering

You don't have to prove anything to anyone else. God knows who is posing as a believer. I just know from experience, when I was a "believer" and then when I became born again. Remember, there is a narrow gate. Matthew 7:14

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The sad thing here is that you have such a fear of doing all these things yourself that you feel the need to scream it at everyone else, as if we were all like you.

Actually, the exact opposite is true. Doubt has never been a factor in my relationship with God. Only recently have circumstances brought a hint of doubt into my mind. So you're guessing wrong here about me. You're waaaaaay off. But of course now the criticism is going to be that I keep myself saved while everyone else is up for grabs. It's the proverbial no win.

Wow, that was a twisting of what has been presented!

Pretty astounding, isn't it?

But you say we lose our salvation every day of our lives and have to get resaved everyday, all day, in order to get to heaven.

Actually, it's impossible to get resaved after you have been turned over by God to your unbelief and become lost. I thought you knew this(?)
The question for former believers is not if they can be resaved--that's impossible (Hebrews 4:6 NASB). The question is, have they worn God's patience out and been turned over to loss of eternal life yet.

And hopefully, when we breathe our last breath, we'll be standing on the right side of the tracks.
That sounds more like a gospel of fear rather than a Gospel of Hope in Jesus Christ.

Are you in disagreement with Paul that we should regard our place in the vine with fear?

"they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either." (Romans 11:20-21 NASB)

He says that you can just as easily be cut out of the vine as you were grafted into it so you should fear, not be arrogant about it as OSAS seems to be. Are you in disagreement with Paul about this healthy fear for keeping your place in the vine? John explains to us that it is when we are not living obediently in God's love that we have fear of the Judgment to come. These teachings hardly make it so a good healthy fear of the Judgment to come is anti-gospel. Nor do they make it so the Spirit-filled, obedient Christian has to live in fear. But that is what you are making them out to be.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But, here's a short explanation of what Jesus was teaching. His style was hyperbolic and hypothetical.

The fiery hell in Matthew 18:8,9 NASB is not hyperbole, nor metaphorical.
You can't make it so 'hell' is 'not really' hell. These 'not really' OSAS arguments are so extensive it's impossible for an honest person like myself to receive them as explanations for making so many clear non-OSAS teachings go away.

 

[smaller]

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

If they all agreed in Acts 15, then why is written in Acts 21:20 that there are many thousands of Jews that believe and they are all zealous of the law and in verse 21 " and they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after their customs."If Paul didn't take that direction, then explain 2 Timothy 2:15 "Study to show thy self approved unto God; a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

It was not the Word of God from the O.T. that was abandoned. Not at all whatsoever. But the "natural men" of Israel's understandings of the law that were abandoned.

Jesus Himself, taught AFTER His Own Resurrection, from the O.T.

Luke 24:27
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

It is this that the natural of Israel, were blinded to. They did not recognize 'God With them.' The Word, made flesh. The Word, Resurrected. The Spirit of The Word, sent into our own hearts by faith in Him.

Do you see pork, shellfish and animal killing in the law, or do you see JESUS?

I see Jesus by Every Word of God.

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Where in the old testament did Paul find "the church", the body of Christ that was made of both Jews and Gentiles?

We find Christ Himself being testified by the scriptures. All those Words of God, are in fact Him, Christ, Speaking.

Was Paul made an apostle while Christ was upon the earth, or was it by revelation of Jesus that he was made an apostle?

Paul was turned from the power of Satan, of darkness, after Christs resurrection, by Direct Revelation. Acts 26:18.

The reality however is that "all of Israel" are Gods children to start with. Deut. 14:1, Psalm 82:6, Matt. 23:9. The real question is "why" can't they see Jesus or themselves? And these reasons, scriptures tell us, that THEY were blinded for US to receive Gods Mercy in Christ. Be thankful. Do not condemn them. Do not think God deals any differently with them, than with us.

Romans 11:
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Gods Final Intentions are only to One, His Christ, His Body.

Eph. 2:
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

What two were made one? Israel and Gentile, in Christ.

 

[LovethroughDove]

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him...

Maybe it should be:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever TRULY believes in Him...

1 John 4:2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God

I look at the world and so many people Spiritualize Jesus, meaning (ask Jesus into your heart). No, he came in the flesh and rose from the dead. This happened and people don't really believe that. I believe in him (the real person) Not an abstract thing.

 

[GodsGrace]

You don't have to prove anything to anyone else. God knows who is posing as a believer. I just know from experience, when I was a "believer" and then when I became born again. Remember, there is a narrow gate. Matthew 7:14

I put forth that believer and born again is the same idea.

If you're a believer, it means you believe in Jesus.
If you believe in Jesus, you're born again.

Because someone has their own personal experience, in your case you believed in "something" but not in Christ as your Lord, does not mean that we are to change our language to suit that person.

A BELIEVER
is a BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN.

We spend enough words saying what each one of us believes,
Could we also not begin to make up our own terms??

Wondering