Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

[dirtfarmer]

Most often when believers have two Gospels, one for Jews, one for Gentiles, and they eliminate Peter, James, the Gospels, etc as inapplicable for Gentile believers, it means full preterism. Nothing to do with accusations whatsoever. It's a short path to understanding where a person is coming from, that's all. I happen to be a determinist, but unfortunately whenever anyone thinks of determinism or predestination, the automatically think "Calvinism." But there are more variants of understandings in determinism than mere Calvinism. Just as there are many variants of freewill understandings. These are just "broad" categories that sometimes help move along discussions.

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

I believe that after salvation man has free will. There are things that God has decreed, but there are things that God has left up to man to decide, but the outcome and consequences of those decisions are up to God.

There is a gospel for the Jews according to scripture, which was preached before Christ was crucified and will be preached during the millennium, also one for the Church which is both Jew and gentile made into one during that "time of the Gentiles". You can only use the epistles of Paul to establish church doctrine. Peter, James, and John's writings, which include Revelation, are for the Jews. They are the apostles to the circumcision( Jews). We can find Christian principal or teaching in them but to establish doctrine for the church from them can't be accomplished.

Are we, as Christians now citizens of heaven but sojourners on earth? Scripture states that our citizenship is in heaven. In Revelation, when John, writing to the 7 churches in Asia it is stated "he that overcometh", but in Romans 8:37 it is stated that we are more than conquerors. The word "conquerors" in the greek means "to gain a surpassing victory. In 1 Corinthians 15:57 it is stated " But thanks be unto god, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." Does this sound as if we "have to overcome"? In Revelation 1:1 it states; " to show unto his servants", but Galatians 4:7 states that we are no more servants but a son; and if a son, then heirs of God through Christ.

 

[JLB]

Quit with the gnostic baloney. I don't have a gnostic bone in my body.

Some of the things you post sure seem like it.

I'll take your word on it, and won't refer to that again.

Jude 1:5
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

And Moses was assuredly "in" this category, per Num. 20:12, and did not enter into the promised land because of "unbelief." NOT, as you say, because he "made a mistake."

Heb. 3 is also abundantly clear that those who did not enter the promised land were those who were in "unbelief."

Heb. 3:
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

I would be careful what you say about Moses:

Moses is a type of Christ:

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 1 Corinthians 10:1-2


Moses had this testimony from God:

3 (Now the man Moses was very humble, more than all men who were on the face of the earth.) Numbers 12:3

and again

I speak with him face to face,
Even plainly, and not in dark sayings;
And he sees the form of the Lord.
Why then were you not afraid
To speak against My servant Moses?”
Numbers 12:8

and again

But since then there has not arisen in Israel a prophet like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face, Deuteronomy 34:10

and again

Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. Hebrews 3:1-2


This scripture compares the faithfulness of Jesus with that of Moses.



Find another way to make whatever point it is you are trying to make, rather than making derogatory insinuations about Moses, lumping him together with those whom God destroyed in the wilderness.

We all know Moses should have spoke to the Rock, rather than strike it.

The Lord called this unbelief, which is also rendered as disobedience.


What your trying to do is compare this "mistake" of unbelief, with the unbelief that the scriptures use to describe a person who was broken off from covenant relationship with the Lord because of "unbelief", in a deceitful attempt to justify your pet doctrine.


Again:

No one that has presented the argument against OSAS, has ever made the claim that God sends a person to hell for making a mistake.

Your are just trying to undermine the plain truth of the scriptures, in a useless attempt to lump Moses together with those who fall into unbelief and departed from Christ, vainly trying to equate unbelief in a task, with unbelief in Christ.

The plain and simple truth is: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16


Those Christians who choose to walk in the flesh, and practice the works thereof, will not inherit the kingdom of God.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Something that you might consider sometime, just for fun, is how is it that how many ever tens of thousands of Israelites came out of Egypt (some estimate as many as 2 million or more), saw first hand, the workings of God, and STILL wound up in UNBELIEF. Doesn't that seem a bit odd to you JLB? Have you ever wondered how in the world that could have possibly happened? To me that is where the real scriptural "meat" of the subject matter is.

But you see, scriptures explain quite clearly what happened to them. In scriptures such as Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 3:14, 2 Cor. 4:4 all clearly explain HOW such a massive amount of unbelief came about. Yet God did not "abandon" Israel. Not at all. Not whatsoever. They will ALL be saved, just as Paul said in Romans 11:26.

all clearly explain HOW such a massive amount of unbelief came about. Yet God did not "abandon" Israel. Not at all. Not whatsoever. They will ALL be saved, just as Paul said in Romans 11:26.

Complete and total Heresy.

A person who has died as a sinner in unbelief, will not somehow be saved later on.

That's called Universal Reconciliation.

You seem to have a habit of writing out your unbiblical opinion and tagging it with scripture as though the scripture reference somehow validates your unbiblical view.


19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?”
35 “Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.
Romans 11:19-36


Here are the verse's that you are not reconciling into your view.

Paul makes this clear back in Romans 9 -

• But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, Romans 9:6

• And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:23

In order for those who were broken off because of unbelief to be grafted back in, they are required to believe.

When Paul says all Israel will be saved, he makes it clear that they are not all Israel who are of Israel.

Meaning all who are Israel, both Jew and Gentile, the Israel of God, will be saved, not the natural Jews.

• The man Israel himself wasn't even a Jew, but a Gentile, a Syrian: The natural Grandson of Abraham.

Jesus is the Israel of God: Those who are in Christ are the True Israel of God.

• And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. Galatians 6:16

Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Israel is My son, My firstborn. Exodus 4:22

Prophetically this is a reference to Christ.

14 When he arose, he took the young Child and His mother by night and departed for Egypt, 15 and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, “Out of Egypt I called My Son.” Matthew 2:14-15

“When Israel was a child, I loved him, And out of Egypt I called My son. Hosea 11:1


Not all who are called Israel are Israel.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace, you are obviously never going to accept what you continuously require of others. In my opinion, it comes off as disingenuous and posturing when you make these demands. You will never read a response that meets what you are challenging others to do. Whether it's because the scripture isn't there, as you claim, or because you refuse to believe them, these kinds of challenges serve no purpose.

I recall HRC once saying, "What difference, at this point, does it make?" Well, when the Scripture isn't there to support one's claims, that is critically important. I don't see how anyone would think otherwise.

Without Scriptural support, what one claims is only opinion. Or made up.

I'm not even casting an opinion on your theology. This is about your tactics. They mire the conversation and prevent it from advancing.

How is asking for evidence for biblical support miring the conversation?

If people aren't required to prove their views are biblical by verses that clearly say what they believe, what's the point of any debate then? The whole point of debating is to provide evidence that supports one's own views.

Is biblical truth so vaguely written that two opposing views can come from it? I don't believe so.

 

[FreeGrace]

I would be careful what you say about Moses:

Moses is a type of Christ:

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 1 Corinthians 10:1-2

Moses had this testimony from God:

3 (Now the man Moses was very humble, more than all men who were on the face of the earth.) Numbers 12:3

and again

I speak with him face to face,
Even plainly, and not in dark sayings;
And he sees the form of the Lord.
Why then were you not afraid
To speak against My servant Moses?”
Numbers 12:8

and again

But since then there has not arisen in Israel a prophet like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face, Deuteronomy 34:10

and again

Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. Hebrews 3:1-2

This scripture compares the faithfulness of Jesus with that of Moses.

Find another way to make whatever point it is you are trying to make, rather than making derogatory insinuations about Moses, lumping him together with those whom God destroyed in the wilderness.

We all know Moses should have spoke to the Rock, rather than strike it.

The Lord called this unbelief, which is also rendered as disobedience.

What your trying to do is compare this "mistake" of unbelief, with the unbelief that the scriptures use to describe a person who was broken off from covenant relationship with the Lord because of "unbelief", in a deceitful attempt to justify your pet doctrine.

Let's just call it what the Lord and the Bible calls it. And Heb 3:19 refers to Moses as well as all the rest of the first generation of the Exodus, except Joshua and Caleb, who did get to enter the promised land.

Those Christians who choose to walk in the flesh, and practice the works thereof, will not inherit the kingdom of God.JLB

The conclusion from this statement is that one is saved ultimately by their lifestyle, rather than by faith in Christ.

Which contradicts Eph 2:8,9 which says this:
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

[smaller]

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

I believe that after salvation man has free will. There are things that God has decreed, but there are things that God has left up to man to decide, but the outcome and consequences of those decisions are up to God.

And the above would actually be a form of determinism. I don't disagree whatsoever with the above assessment btw. See how easy that is?

There is a gospel for the Jews according to scripture, --- You can only use the epistles of Paul to establish church doctrine. Peter, James, and John's writings, which include Revelation, are for the Jews. They are the apostles to the circumcision( Jews). We can find Christian principal or teaching in them but to establish doctrine for the church from them can't be accomplished.

And that would be the lynchpin of full preterism. Which I have studied well enough and cast aside as worthless understanding, myself.

Obviously anyone can believe whatever they think they see. What usually drives believers into full preterism is misunderstandings about law, of Israel of the O.T. and the O.T. in general And rather than pressing for scriptural harmony, which IS available also, they take an ill minded shortcut by tossing aside Gods Words, which, if you think about it, really doesn't make much sense as a christian.

And I hope you understand that the entirety of Paul's teachings come from O.T. scripture and Christ's Words. Paul also "submitted" his understandings and works to both O.T. scripture AND to the other Apostles, James, Peter and John and the elders in Acts 15 and thereby set the course of salvation by faith in Christ, through Grace and Mercy and NOT Jewish "external" legal performances and rituals in Acts 15, to which ALL of these Apostles themselves submitted to.

For Jews however they are NOT forbidden to "practice and engage" in Jewish laws and rituals. Nor are gentiles forbidden to follow the laws, for that matter, 1 Cor. 9:20.

A single line of scripture, Acts 26:18, Jesus Speaking directly to Paul, turned Paul's entire understandings of the whole of scripture. That principle of Jesus is the same as Mark 4:15 (and all the other seed parables.) Which principle is also found in the O.T. Num. 14:33, Hosea 5:4 among other examples. And Jesus also proclaimed these same facts in Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23 and Mark 5:28 thereby "amplifying" or "magnifying" the LAW (and proving that He Is Lord in fulfillment of the O.T. scripture, Isaiah 42:21, to show the reality of internal evil in mankind, NOT based on external behavior.

A long standing methodology among most who handle doctrinal questions is that if there are multiple scriptural citings of certain matters, these "two or three" scripture witness quotes make for emphasis of truth. The two or three witness methodology comes from the scriptures in Deut. 17:6, Deut. 19:15, Matt. 18:16, 2 Cor. 13:1, 1 Tim. 5:19, Heb. 10:28. So, yeah, well established principles.

Are we, as Christians now citizens of heaven but sojourners on earth? Scripture states that our citizenship is in heaven. In Revelation, when John, writing to the 7 churches in Asia it is stated "he that overcometh", but in Romans 8:37 it is stated that we are more than conquerors. The word "conquerors" in the greek means "to gain a surpassing victory. In 1 Corinthians 15:57 it is stated " But thanks be unto god, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." Does this sound as if we "have to overcome"?

Well, yes, scripture does speak to "overcoming." But we do have "The Overcomer" within us, by faith. So diminishing the Spirit of Christ in us would not seem beneficial to "overcoming." I think the performance thresholds are what most believers debate about and use to potentially eternally condemn one another, which for me, in the light of scripture, is a forbidden practice. It's one of the major errors of church bodies and doctrines in general that has split and decimated the churches and the congregants. And vilely violates the most basic command of Christ to his disciples: John 13:34.

In Revelation 1:1 it states; " to show unto his servants", but Galatians 4:7 states that we are no more servants but a son; and if a son, then heirs of God through Christ.

So where do you stand on this topic matter? Can a believer lose their salvation and wind up in hell?

 

[eddif]

Some insight into Moses:
https://carm.org/why-couldnt-moses-enter-promised-land

eddif

 

[smaller]

Some of the things you post sure seem like it.

I'll take your word on it, and won't refer to that again.

The short version litmus test of gnosticism is the belief that 'material,' because it is not spirit, is evil. I don't believe that whatsoever.

I would be careful what you say about Moses:

I've repeated several times now that I believe Moses is saved, beyond any question. It is your position that has trouble with this matter because it double deals Moses, which facts of double dealing have been established multiple times now.

Moses is a type of Christ:

Oh, it's much more than that. The Spirit of Christ Himself spoke from Moses' lips. 1 Peter 1:10-11. Just as the Spirit of Christ spoke through ALL the prophets who spoke the Words of God.

Find another way to make whatever point it is you are trying to make, rather than making derogatory insinuations about Moses, lumping him together with those whom God destroyed in the wilderness.

You may in your own mind think Moses did not enter into the promised land NOT because of unbelief, but the scriptures prove otherwise. And there your position hits the brick wall. Yes, Moses did not enter the promised land because of unbelief, according to the scriptures, cited to you multiple times now. Num. 20:12, Jude 1:5, Heb. 3, particularly Heb. 3:19. So here your position has obvious issues because it double deals the "unbelief" of Moses from the others.

What ALL those who did not enter the promised land DOES prove is that "all" are under sin. Which is a well established principle of scriptures. And yes, unbelief is a SIN as well. John 16:9.

That action, of the first generation coming out of Egypt and winding up in unbelief, is a an unavoidable condition of "all" natural mankind. Even though they saw, with their own eyes, all the wonderous works of God, with direct evidence and proof, they STILL failed to believe. And this speaks to the condition of the natural man. It was the "second" generation that entered. And this also speaks to the Gospel, that belief comes to the natural man, CHANGES them, and THEY DO ENTER.

We all know Moses should have spoke to the Rock, rather than strike it.
The Lord called this unbelief, which is also rendered as disobedience.

Great conclusion. Yes, these are facts.

What your trying to do is compare this "mistake" of unbelief, with the unbelief that the scriptures use to describe a person who was broken off from covenant relationship with the Lord because of "unbelief", in a deceitful attempt to justify your pet doctrine.

I appreciate your struggle to justify the unbelief of Moses and say it was different, but it wasn't. Sin is sin. Unbelief is unbelief. Disobedience is disobedience. It doesn't matter, one sinner from another. All of these workings are not treated any differently by God for any. That's all there is to the matters.

No one that has presented the argument against OSAS, has ever made the claim that God sends a person to hell for making a mistake.

I think the onus is definitely upon your position, because that position has double dealt the unbelief and disobedience of Moses. No question about that. But you see the instant you DON'T double deal the unbelief about Moses then your sights of believers who have this particular SIN may have to change as well. And that's why your position is both resisting this sight and refuses to change, because the position falls apart and crumbles. It's not like other believers haven't examined these particulars in painstaking details precisely for the same reasons, to see if such understandings are valid. I personally don't think so.

Your are just trying to undermine the plain truth of the scriptures, in a useless attempt to lump Moses together with those who fall into unbelief and departed from Christ, vainly trying to equate unbelief in a task, with unbelief in Christ.

Just as God has not forsaken and abandoned Israel, He never forsook and abandoned Moses. Just as He Never Leaves a believer, once believing. SIN can not separate Jesus from the believer. If it did, NO ONE would believe because "all" believers are sinners. Romans 8:38-39. Paul was very precise that "nothing" can separate us from the love of God. Nothing, by reason of inclusion (there being NOTHING that can separate us from the Love of God in Christ), includes our own sinning selves.

 

[smaller]

Complete and total Heresy.

A person who has died as a sinner in unbelief, will not somehow be saved later on.

That's called Universal Reconciliation.

I do not adhere to "universal reconciliation." Nor do I adhere to 'unlimited atonement.'

I DID however specifically cite Paul with regards to "enemies of the Gospel" who are BELOVED for the sakes of their fathers, all of whom shall be saved. And this is Paul's dictate, not my own. Romans 11:25-31. And that salvation is exactly as Paul stated, for enemies of the Gospel who were "present tense" enemies when Paul wrote those words, "are enemies." Not "will be enemies in the future."

Many are fond of claiming not all of Israel is Israel. If we observe Paul's statements of fact, we can easily see what is NOT Israel, here:

Romans 11:
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day.

Right there, in red, is what is NOT Israel. And this particular scripture is a well established O.T. fact spoken of by MANY prophets. And by Jesus as well.

You seem to have a habit of writing out your unbiblical opinion and tagging it with scripture as though the scripture reference somehow validates your unbiblical view.

The debates always revolve around scriptural particulars, not the bucket of paint slung every direction method.

 

[dirtfarmer]

And the above would actually be a form of determinism. I don't disagree whatsoever with the above assessment btw. See how easy that is?


And that would be the lynchpin of full preterism. Which I have studied well enough and cast aside as worthless understanding, myself.

Obviously anyone can believe whatever they think they see. What usually drives believers into full preterism is misunderstandings about law, of Israel of the O.T. and the O.T. in general And rather than pressing for scriptural harmony, which IS available also, they take an ill minded shortcut by tossing aside Gods Words, which, if you think about it, really doesn't make much sense as a christian.

And I hope you understand that the entirety of Paul's teachings come from O.T. scripture and Christ's Words. Paul also "submitted" his understandings and works to both O.T. scripture AND to the other Apostles, James, Peter and John and the elders in Acts 15 and thereby set the course of salvation by faith in Christ, through Grace and Mercy and NOT Jewish "external" legal performances and rituals in Acts 15, to which ALL of these Apostles themselves submitted to.

For Jews however they are NOT forbidden to "practice and engage" in Jewish laws and rituals. Nor are gentiles forbidden to follow the laws, for that matter, 1 Cor. 9:20.

A single line of scripture, Acts 26:18, Jesus Speaking directly to Paul, turned Paul's entire understandings of the whole of scripture. That principle of Jesus is the same as Mark 4:15 (and all the other seed parables.) Which principle is also found in the O.T. Num. 14:33, Hosea 5:4 among other examples. And Jesus also proclaimed these same facts in Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23 and Mark 5:28 thereby "amplifying" or "magnifying" the LAW (and proving that He Is Lord in fulfillment of the O.T. scripture, Isaiah 42:21, to show the reality of internal evil in mankind, NOT based on external behavior.

A long standing methodology among most who handle doctrinal questions is that if there are multiple scriptural citings of certain matters, these "two or three" scripture witness quotes make for emphasis of truth. The two or three witness methodology comes from the scriptures in Deut. 17:6, Deut. 19:15, Matt. 18:16, 2 Cor. 13:1, 1 Tim. 5:19, Heb. 10:28. So, yeah, well established principles.


Well, yes, scripture does speak to "overcoming." But we do have "The Overcomer" within us, by faith. So diminishing the Spirit of Christ in us would not seem beneficial to "overcoming." I think the performance thresholds are what most believers debate about and use to potentially eternally condemn one another, which for me, in the light of scripture, is a forbidden practice. It's one of the major errors of church bodies and doctrines in general that has split and decimated the churches and the congregants. And vilely violates the most basic command of Christ to his disciples: John 13:34.



So where do you stand on this topic matter? Can a believer lose their salvation and wind up in hell?

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

I wish that I could convince you that there is 1. the gospel of the kingdom which will be the message during the tribulation. 2. the gospel of the grace of God which is being preached during " the times of the gentiles". But it is not my job to convince(convict) any one of the truth. It is our responsibility to preach the word and it is the Holy Spirit that does the convicting.

As to determinism I believe what God has stated in Isaiah 46:10 that he is accurately foretelling the end from the beginning. God has plan and it will not be frustrated by humans. Does that plan determine which individuals will be saved or damned? I don't find scripture that states that. I do find scripture that those who are saved God has predetermined that they will not see his wrath but his salvation.

It is my belief that 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 speaks to the mixing of the gospel of the kingdom and the gospel of the grace as strong delusions. The reason that I believe this is because "the gospel of the kingdom" was revealed in scripture long before Paul received, BY REVELATION, the gospel of grace: Galatians 1:11-12. That revelation is spoken of in Acts 26:15-18.

Paul, in Galatians 2:5-6 tells us of the outcome of his trip to Jerusalem where it was determined that James, John, and Peter was given the gospel of the circumcision and to Paul was the gospel of the uncircumcision given. Is there a difference between circumcision and uncircumcision?

 

[Mike]

How is asking for evidence for biblical support miring the conversation?

This is the last I'll say of this, because I don't want to distract from the discussion further.

You know, and those who are familiar with your work know, that there is no chance of meeting your personal standard that you have set. There has been plenty of scripture shown to you by members who interpret them to give you the proof you are demanding. It is just as fair that you reject them as it is for them to present them as scriptural evidence.

I am not challenging your prerogative to hold to your theology and reject their interpretation. I'm saying it's not honest to call for the proof, knowing full well there is nothing that will satisfy your own personal criteria. When this is a routine tactic in your posts, it severely cripples the progress of the discussion.

 

[JLB]

I DID however specifically cite Paul with regards to "enemies of the Gospel" who are BELOVED for the sakes of their fathers, all of whom shall be saved.

The scripture most certainly does not say they will be saved.

It says if they don't continue in unbelief, the will be GRAFTED BACK IN.

The requirement for all is conditional based upon believing.

Natural Jews don't get some free pass, because they were broken off because of unbelief.

The only way for Jews who were broken off because of unbelief, is to confess Jesus Christ as Lord, and believe God raised Him from the dead.

22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:22-23

There is no automatic free pass for unbelieving Jews, that they will all be somehow saved, though they don't believe in Christ Jesus.

All Israel, will be saved, that are of the true Israel of God, which is both Jews and Gentiles.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Many are fond of claiming not all of Israel is Israel. If we observe Paul's statements of fact, we can easily see what is NOT Israel, here:

Romans 11:
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day.

Right there, in red, is what is NOT Israel. And this particular scripture is a well established O.T. fact spoken of by MANY prophets. And by Jesus as well.

That statement has nothing to do with unclean spirits, but is a reference to people.

Read the context.

I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelite's, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, [natural Jews] 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. Romans 9:1-8


The reference is to natural Jews, as not being counted as [the true] Israel just because they are of Israel after the flesh.

There has nothing to do with "spirits" as being not of Israel.



JLB

 

[LovethroughDove]

• Believe for a while = Saved for a while.

JLB

These believed "something", but not saving belief. Jesus is able to keep a true believer in saving belief of him.

Hebrews 7:25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

 

[FreeGrace]

This is the last I'll say of this, because I don't want to distract from the discussion further.

You know, and those who are familiar with your work know, that there is no chance of meeting your personal standard that you have set. There has been plenty of scripture shown to you by members who interpret them to give you the proof you are demanding. It is just as fair that you reject them as it is for them to present them as scriptural evidence.

I am not challenging your prerogative to hold to your theology and reject their interpretation. I'm saying it's not honest to call for the proof, knowing full well there is nothing that will satisfy your own personal criteria. When this is a routine tactic in your posts, it severely cripples the progress of the discussion.

OK, then this isn't a debate forum. It is an opinion sharing forum.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why do you guys make this so difficult?

OSAS is the doctrine of frustrating difficulty. It has to explain away so many plain scriptures.
This one, particularly, seems to be the Achilles heal of all sects of OSAS:

"6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:6,9 NASB)

Note that Jesus is talking about REAL believers, not fake ones. 'Believe' really does mean 'believe', not 'didn't really believe'. So grasping for that argument is out. And in regard to these real believers, Jesus says it's better to remove that which causes the real believer to stumble SO THEY WON'T GO TO HELL. But how can he say that if true believers can not go to hell under any circumstances?

See how plain Jesus' words are? Non-OSAS is not the one making this difficult. OSAS is the one making this difficult by insisting on grasping for lengthy and unreasonable 'explanations' that make the plain non-OSAS words of scripture not really mean what they so plainly say. But this seems to be the one passage that they can't do that to. Now it's just a matter of honestly acknowledging what Jesus himself so plainly and simply said. There's nothing difficult about it at all. Just read what it says.

I did NOT spend the time I spent answering you to receive the rather unthoughful answers you have given me.

I absolutely agree. I was hoping for a more thoughtful response from him than what I got in post #496. No explanation was given to explain how OSAS can contradict John's words that the city that is 'taken away' is salvation/ eternal life itself, not just an optional reward for well behaved believers. The 'taking away' John is speaking of is the taking away of eternal life itself, because to have the promise of the city taken away is to be consigned to the very hell OSAS swears you'll never see:

"...if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book."

15Outside (of the city) are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying."

"8“...the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”"

(Revelation 22:19 NASB, Revelation 22:15 NASB, Revelation 21:8 NASB bold, underline, and parenthesis mine, italics in original)

It's impossible for OSAS to say the city is only an optional reward for the believer, and that to not be in it means you still have salvation/ eternal life. It has to take away the clear teaching in Revelation about the city to say what it does. Which, ironically, causes the very thing it claims can not happen to the believer.

 

[GodsGrace]

These believed "something", but not saving belief. Jesus is able to keep a true believer in saving belief of him.

Hebrews 7:25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Hi LtD
I'm interested in understanding from you what "something" other than saving us Jesus might have left heaven for to come here.

You post Hebrews 7:25 but leave out 7:24.
7:24 speaks to how the old priesthood of Aaron was from father to son and kept going like that.
God made a new priesthood, the permanent priesthood of Jesus. Jesus is the new and better Priest, the permanent priest. Jesus guarantees us a better way - a New way between us and God, one that functions better. The one called the New Covenant.

7:25 says that the old priests had to be replaced, but Jesus' Priesthood is forever and permanent.
It says that He will be here till the end, to save everyone who comes to God through Him. He's our advocate with God and will always speak in our defense as long as we wish Him to.

1. We must be members of the New Covenant to be saved. We must WANT to be members. God will not force us. Do you believe in free will?

2. Jesus is able to save everyone who comes to God through Him until the end.
AS LONG AS WE WANT TO BE SAVED.
Notice that it says "comes to God through Him" NOT "whoever came to God through Him."


Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

I have a question. Does God owe salvation to those who believe? My understanding is that even if I do all the works which I am called and commanded to do, including believing, it is still by God's grace that I am saved. If I expect salvation from God because I believe He owes it to me even just because I believe, I am holding His feet to the fire. It seems that in the end it is still God's choice and it is not our place to decide for God whom he will save.

Seek the Lord while He may be found,
Call upon Him while He is near.
Let the wicked forsake his way,
And the unrighteous man his thoughts;
Let him return to the Lord,
And He will have mercy on him;
And to our God,
For He will abundantly pardon.

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

“I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it."

How many times did God relent His plan for Sodom and Gomorrah as Abraham pleaded? If we are going to hold His feet to the fire with regard to salvation, is it not only fitting that the opposite be true?

WIP
I just saw this.
Of course you're right.
God is God.
Not us!
Everything He gives us is from Grace.
He OWES us nothing. If it were not for His grace, we'd all be in a lot of trouble.
God loves us...

For God so LOVED the world (us)
John 3:16

One of the most complete scriptures in the N.T.
It says it all.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

delete

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hebrews 7:25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Christ's ministry is perfect and will accomplish that which God says it will accomplish. That's why we can put our faith in Him. The promise is for those who believe in that ministry, not for those who reject it. Christ's effectual ministry is conditioned on having faith in that ministry. But it is being claimed here that you still have the effectual ministry of Christ even if you stop believing in it to do what God promised it would do for those who trust in it.