Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

[JLB]

I believe that once a person is "justified"(saved by belief) by God they can never loose that justification(salvation)

28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”
Matthew 18:28-35

We were forgiven and cleansed of our sins, which made us righteous before God.

Justified means to be made righteous.

Jesus taught we can indeed lose the forgiveness we received, the very thing by which we are justified, if we don't forgive others.



JLB

 

[chessman]

Yes the ones in group 2 & 3 did hear the word and receive it with joy.

The rock believed 'something' with immediate joy and a lack of understanding. If you think believing in what you don't understand and that lacks firstly repentance from your sins saves you, then please post the Scripture that supports your view.

 

[JLB]

The rock believed 'something' with immediate joy and a lack of understanding.

So now it's the rock that believed "something".

The rock doesn't believe.

The soil that has little depth of earth because it is on rock, represents a condition of a person's heart.

Some fell on stony ground, where it did not have much earth; and immediately it sprang up because it had no depth of earth. Mark 4:5

and again

Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth. Matthew 13:5

The lack of depth of earth means little or no moisture to sustain the plant with life giving water.


Some fell on rock; and as soon as it sprang up, it withered away because it lacked moisture. Luke 8:6


But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:15

These understand that greed for the things of this world [condition 3] or persecution [condition 2] can cause them to cease believing, thus no longer "keeping" or "hold fast" the word they once received.

These who bear fruit are those who "keep it' which is to say, they hold fast the word [message of the Gospel] steadfast unto the end, otherwise what they first believed no longer benefits them because they no longer believe.


Just what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15.

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2


JLB

 

[JLB]

Again, the point is totally missed. Who are His sheep? He answered that in v.9 where He equated Himself with being the "door of the sheep" and those who "enter through" Him will be saved. That's how one becomes His sheep.

I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. John 10:9

Yes those who enter the kingdom of God, can only enter through Christ. He is the Way, the Truth and the [eternal] life.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:31-34

Once you enter through Christ our Judge on that Day, you will be saved.

What you are attempting to teach is that we have already come through this life of testing and have already been welcomed into the kingdom of God, on the Day of Judgement.

Those who inherit the kingdom of God are those who have their part within.



JLB

 

[abide]

Revelation 22:19 KJV
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

eddif

What about Matthew 24.12 But he that shall endure to the end shall be saved...would not the reverse of this be true. I believe we cannot lose our salvation but as I have mentioned in another post this scripture is one which puzzles me along with

Revelation 14. 9-12
9Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.11“And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”12Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

 

[FreeGrace]

I agree with a lot of what you say.
Like for instance:
Those who HAVE eternal life will never perish.

When do believers receive eternal life? According to Jesus, WHEN they believe in Him, per His words in John 5:24 - “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS (present tense) eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

The promise in John 10:28 (I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.) is for those who have been given eternal life. So, everyone who believes, HAS, at that moment, the gift of eternal life, and Jesus' promise to them is that they will never perish.

HAVE: Have at the time of death. You must have eternal life IN you at the time of your death in order to be eternally saved and never perish.

Of course. Now, does the Bible teach that eternal life can be revoked, taken away, lost, forfeited, or any such wording to indicate that someone who has been given eternal life could end up in the "second death", otherwise known as the lake of fire?

We've been through the snatching of hand and I'm not going to repeat. No one can "snatch" us, but we could walk out of our own FREE WILL.

I'll refer to the parable of the prodigal son to make the point. The son physically left his father, but at no time did he leave his position as "son". He remained a son throughout the parable.

Yes, a believer can remove himself from God, the Father, but that's not breaking relationship, but fellowship, exactly like the parable of the prodigal.

There needs to be clear evidence from Scripture that one has the innate power or ability to relieve themselves of their God given eternal life. And there is no such Scripture. Therefore, no reason to assume such.

Regarding A Point In Time:
At a point in time I was 16 years old.
I'm not anymore.
Whenever we believed, whever that point in time is, it MUST be continued.

One is saved in a point in time action of believing in Christ as Savior. At that point in time, they are saved. And such a one HAS eternal life, and will never perish.

We MUST do s Jesus instructed.

Yes. I agree fully. And He used the aorist tense for 'believe' to be saved. Luke 8:13

I was wondering today if Jesus knew about this aorist tense of which you're in such awe.

Isn't this a rather smart-alecky snipe? How would He not know about the aorist tense?

btw, I'm not in awe of the Greek. But I realize that to understand Scripture, it helps a whole bunch to have some knowledge of how that language works.

I live in an area where there are only Catholics. This evening I spoke to a priest friend of mine who is in his 60's, and has a theology degree. He speaks different languages, English, Italian, French, Arab and Greek.

That's nice.

I asked him about what we've been speaking about. He explained the tense slightly and then proceeded to tell me that not too much importance should be given to it. He said it's a continuation. He said you must believe NOW. You must believe WHEN YOU DIE.

I don't get my theology or linguistics from an old Catholic priest, no disrespect given. I get my theology and linguistics from the Bible and from lexicons. There is absolutely ZERO emphasis on continuation from the aorist tense. But you're free to believe whatever else you hear about it, and from whom ever else you hear it from. But I'm not impressed

In case you don't believe me, and why should you, I found this on the internet. There was a lot and none of it agrees with your understanding of the word. Which, BTW, has never been important to me since the bible makes it clear that we must be in a believing state when we die.
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
CONT'D

I guess I'm just as not impressed with your so-called internet information. It would have been helpful to at least cite your link(s) so I could check them out.

In the meantime, I'll provide a link for your perusal.

"Aorist Tense
The aorist is said to be "simple occurrence" or "summary occurrence", without regard for the amount of time taken to accomplish the action. This tense is also often referred to as the 'punctiliar' tense. 'Punctiliar' in this sense means 'viewed as a single, collective whole,' a "one-point-in-time" action, although it may actually take place over a period of time. In the indicative mood the aorist tense denotes action that occurred in the past time, often translated like the English simple past tense."

This is the link: http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/translation_index.htm

Scroll down until to you come to the aorist tense paragraph.

Here's another comment on that link:
"An Overview of Aktionsart with Time with the Different Tenses

If the writer is referring to an action that happened in past time, he could refer to it as either progressive (by using the imperfect tense) or as merely a simple occurrence, with no emphasis on the action's progress (by using the aorist tense)."

And this is the actual page link: http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/inter-tense.htm

 

[FreeGrace]

Part 2

In the Ancient Greek....

... In particular, the aorist does not imply a "once for all" action, as it has commonly been misinterpreted.

Please note the very last line.

There was no reason to assume that I was pushing such an idea. I never ONCE said the aorist is a "once for all" action. I have only said what I previously shared from internet links; that the aorist is a point in time action with NO emphasis on duration. Period.

As far as what Jesus asked Martha in John 11:26, since it's a personal question that does not require an answer, I leave it to your imagination. (do you suppose I'd enjoy being lost??)
Wondering

I'm kinda wondering why one would think that a personal question doesn't require an answer. Could you help me out here?

btw, Martha did answer His question, so I think that even personal questions do require an answer.

We see another very personal question from Jesus in Matt 16:

"13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

And, Peter answered that personal question.

 

[FreeGrace]

hello Wondering, dirtfarmer here

A couple of points that you made troubles me a little. My mother was a believer, but when she passed away at the age of 98 her mind was not such that she could have retained a belief in any thing. I believe that once a person is "justified"(saved by belief) by God they can never loose that justification(salvation) It is my understanding that when a person believes, has faith, or born again( receives salvation), that a relationship is established with God and that believer. It is my belief that that relationship can never be broken because it is kept by the power of God. I do believe during that relationship, that fellowship can be broken by the believer being overtaken by a fault and must be confessed (say the same as God), then fellowship is restored. The reason that I believe this is because we are told that Christ paid for the sin debt( death-separation from God) for the whole world and because of that the only sin that brings separation from God is unbelief in Christ at the point of physical death.

Very well said!!

 

[FreeGrace]

I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. John 10:9

Yes those who enter the kingdom of God, can only enter through Christ. He is the Way, the Truth and the [eternal] life.

Consider also what else Jesus promises for those who believe:
1. they HAVE eternal life, they WILL NOT come into condemnation, and HAVE PASSED from spiritual death to spiritual life, per John 5:24
2. Those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH, per John 10:28

Your views are in direct conflict with these promises of Jesus.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:31-34

Yes, His sheep have eternal life and WILL NOT PERISH, or be condemned.

Once you enter through Christ our Judge on that Day, you will be saved.

One of our strong disagreements is when one is saved and HAS eternal life. I believe what Jesus said in John 5:24 as to the timing of when one receives eternal life (Jn 5:24) and when one is saved (Luke 8:12).

What you are attempting to teach is that we have already come through this life of testing and have already been welcomed into the kingdom of God, on the Day of Judgement.

Again, I absolutely believe what Jesus said about those who have been given eternal life; they WILL NEVER PERISH. Your view is in direct conflict with the promise of Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace]

There was no reason to assume that I was pushing such an idea. I never ONCE said the aorist is a "once for all" action. I have only said what I previously shared from internet links; that the aorist is a point in time action with NO emphasis on duration. Period.

I'm happy to hear I won't be hearing about tenses anymore. It was beginning to sound like an English/Greek class instead of bible study.

It's also nice that you understand that the aorist tense takes place at a point in time with NO EMPHASIS ON DURATION. Of course, this means that the action of the verb, in this case BELIEVE, could end at some time in the future.

Since our BELIEF in Jesus is what saves us, I can only assume, and correctly so I believe, that if I STOP BELIEVING I will no longer have salvation.

I'm kinda wondering why one would think that a personal question doesn't require an answer. Could you help me out here?

btw, Martha did answer His question, so I think that even personal questions do require an answer.

John 11:26
Everyone who believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?
Again, we have the present tense word BELIEVE.
But you're asking me if I believe in Jesus.
Yes. I'd say this is a personal question - the reason I don't answer it is because there is no reason for you to ask it. We're here to discuss eternal security.

We see another very personal question from Jesus in Matt 16:

"13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

And, Peter answered that personal question.

FreeGrace, I've taught Christianity to children and adults. As you well know, your above question, which Jesus asked his Apostles (although they were called disciples until after His death and resurrection) is the most important question to be answered by each one of us individually.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

English has 3 tenses: past, present, and future. Greeks had 6 tenses, which can be easily looked up in a number of websites.

But, basically, the aorist tense generally means "in a point in time" without any reference to duration of time. Kinda like a snapshot. The present tense generally indicates action presently occurring.

The error is to think the present tense means the action must continue on indefinitely, yet Jesus used the present tense in Luke 8:13 even though the action of believing did not continue on indefinitely.

Because the aorist tense is used in a number of verses about believing for salvation, it is (or should be) clear that one is saved in a point in time that they have believed.

If salvation was linked to on-going believing, then Jesus would not have used the aorist in Luke 8:12, nor the present tense in v.13. He would have switched them.

BTW,
English has more than 3 tenses.
Greek has more than 6 tenses.

W

 

[GodsGrace]

hello Wondering, dirtfarmer here

A couple of points that you made troubles me a little. My mother was a believer, but when she passed away at the age of 98 her mind was not such that she could have retained a belief in any thing. I believe that once a person is "justified"(saved by belief) by God they can never loose that justification(salvation) It is my understanding that when a person believes, has faith, or born again( receives salvation), that a relationship is established with God and that believer. It is my belief that that relationship can never be broken because it is kept by the power of God. I do believe during that relationship, that fellowship can be broken by the believer being overtaken by a fault and must be confessed (say the same as God), then fellowship is restored. The reason that I believe this is because we are told that Christ paid for the sin debt( death-separation from God) for the whole world and because of that the only sin that brings separation from God is unbelief in Christ at the point of physical death.

First let me thank you for your concern. I truly believe that is very nice of you. We Christians should be concerned for each other.
Romans 12:10

I also appreciate that you explained all the terms you used in parenthesis. That was thoughtful.

1. My father was a believer. He died of alzheimers at 87. I'm also sorry for your mother. Did I include these two people and others like them in my discourse to you regarding having to believe at the time of death? I think not.
Do you suppose handicapped children could be saved or do you think they cannot because they don't understand all those words you explained to me in parenthesis?

I'm sure 100% that your answer will match my answer.

2. You explain the word Justification.
Have you ever considered the word Sanctification?

You're absolutely correct that Justification is a work of God. He alone can Justify. We have nothing to do with it other than to call on His name and believe.

But what does Sanctification mean?
Sanctification is an ONGOING process that requires both God and man. Sanctification will not take place without the participation of man - God will not sanctify us unless we WANT Him to. This is a work of the Holy Spirit.

Justification and Sanctification work hand in hand. You cannot have one without the other. This means that if the Sanctification process ends, the Justification of the person will also come to an end. You cannot have one without the other.

If you read Acts 26:18 you'll find that Jesus is telling Paul that he will be sent to the gentiles to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light and from the power of satan to the power of God so that they may receive forgiveness of sin and a place among those who were sanctified by FAITH IN CHRIST.

So, if you have faith in Christ and follow in His ways, you can be sanctified by Him and through Him.
If you do NOT have faith in Christ through unbelief in Him, then Sanctification stops and so does Justification.

BTW, Sanctification requires works. In fact, all Jesus spoke about was works. We don't like to hear that word too much nowadays, but the bible is full of this idea. Just try 1 Thessalonians 4:1-12, 1 Peter 1:1-2 just for starters.

Does this mean I believe in works for salvation? No.
Does this mean I believe in works for Sanctification? Yes.

I believe that sin is the nature that we all were born with because of Adam's transgression. I believe that sins are the fruit of that nature, just as there is love, joy, peace, and etc , which are fruit of the Spirit. In scripture those that are condemned to the lake of fire are those that die in the sin of unbelief. It is possible for an unbeliever to have similar attributes as do believers, not possess the Spirit and still remain in unbelief. It is not because of love, joy, or peace, that we are saved but because we have the Spirit dwelling in us.

Thank you for clarifying.
I agree with everything you've said.
You say that if I die in unbelief I'm headed for the Lake of Fire.
You say that it is the Spirit dwelling within us that allows us to be saved.
I couldn't agree more.
So if I DO NOT BELIEVE, I am lost. Correct.
If I DO NOT have the Holy Spirit indwelling, I am lost. Correct.
IOW, I must BELIEVE and possess the Holy Spirit at the time of my death, to be saved and be with God.

Do you suppose the Holy Spirit would remain indwelling in me if I hated Him and didn't want Him with me?
Or if I became a cheat and liar and drunkard and adulterer? I think not.

We are asked what, and who can separate us from the love of God. It was the Love that God has for man, that God gave his only begotten to pay our sin. I often ask those that have children; Do your children always obey you. Of course the answer is no, and since they disobey(sin, so to speak) do they become unborn and not your children. The answer is no, but we do chastise them, and that is to make them respectable adults. So it is with God.

Nothing and no one can separate us from the love of God. However, I myself can decide I noj longer wish to serve God but wish to serve satan. Can two masters live in the same house? NO.

Regarding people with children. A child will always remain the child of the parents.
But they could write a child out of a will.
Did you ever consider that the NEW TESTAMENT is a will? A will that takes effect after Jesus' death, just like in our case. We will always be God's children, but we will be written OUT OF THE WILL. Out of the New Covenant. If you're not in the New Covenant, you're not saved.

The other question is, did you posted your belief based on scripture or is your belief based on what the priest told scripture states? I don't ask any one to base their beliefs on what I say or teach only but encourage them to search the scriptures and compare scripture with scripture to see if what I say is in line with the teachings of Spirit about scripture.

1. No answer from me because:
Have I said anything to make you believe I don't know scripture?
Your question implies that a priest who is a theologian somehow has it all wrong since you're pitting his knowledge with scripture.

2. So you teach. Nice. At what university? Do you have a Ph.D. after your name? No. Really...

3. You must understand by now that I DO NOT believe you are in line with scripture, to answer your last question, I'm not chastising you.

not saying that you are lost

Whew!


Wondering

 

[FreeGrace]

I'm happy to hear I won't be hearing about tenses anymore. It was beginning to sound like an English/Greek class instead of bible study.

Knowledge is not a bad thing.

It's also nice that you understand that the aorist tense takes place at a point in time with NO EMPHASIS ON DURATION. Of course, this means that the action of the verb, in this case BELIEVE, could end at some time in the future.

Thank you.

Since our BELIEF in Jesus is what saves us, I can only assume, and correctly so I believe, that if I STOP BELIEVING I will no longer have salvation.

Thanks for admitting that your views are based on assumption. But what leads to thinking that such assumption is a correct one? Your view places all emphasis of being saved on your own continuing action. Yet, we know from Jesus that one is saved when one believes, even when using the aorist tense.

If your view about continuing belief being necessary for staying saved, then neither Jesus or Paul would have ever used the aorist tense when speaking about being saved on the basis of believing in Christ.

John 11:26
Everyone who believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?
Again, we have the present tense word BELIEVE.
But you're asking me if I believe in Jesus.
Yes. I'd say this is a personal question - the reason I don't answer it is because there is no reason for you to ask it. We're here to discuss eternal security.

No, I never asked you that question. I asked if you believe what Jesus said about having eternal life. Which is a different question altogether.

FreeGrace, I've taught Christianity to children and adults. As you well know, your above question, which Jesus asked his Apostles (although they were called disciples until after His death and resurrection) is the most important question to be answered by each one of us individually.

Wondering

Do you believe what Jesus said about having eternal life WHEN one believes in Him, and that those He gives eternal life to will never perish?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

is there any substance to your claims about why it cannot be hyperbole? Or what I posted cannot be true?

Yes.
In Mark we see clearly that Jesus is talking about the literal fiery hell:

"42“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea. 43“If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44[where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 45“If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell,46[where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 47“If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,48where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, ANDTHE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED." (Mark 9:42-48 NASB caps and italics in original, bold mine)

The mistake being made is thinking that just because Jesus uses a metaphor (not hyperbole) for the members of His body ('eye', 'foot', 'hand') that the whole teaching must then be a metaphor. But, as we can plainly see the hell he is talking about in the teaching is very, very literal.

Jesus himself says that it is better to cut off those who cause real believers to stumble so as to be cast into actual hell. But OSAS claims real believers can never under any circumstances be cast into hell--not even if they become unbelievers according to your particular branch of OSAS doctrine. That's not what Jesus says. So, we know that eternal life not being able to be revoked from a person who actually possesses it is NOT what Paul is addressing in Romans 11:29 NASB. Otherwise Jesus and Paul are in DIRECT CONTRADICTION.

The reason anyone has to even wonder in the first place if Paul is talking about that is because Paul doesn't say that's what he's talking about in the passage. That's why that interpretation of the passage has to be added by OSAS. And since that is the less specific, vague passage, more clearer passages, like Mark 9:42-48 NASB, 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB, and others, prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Paul was in no way saying that the gift of eternal life is not able to be revoked for the person who possesses it. There's waaaaay too many clear passages to make it impossible for that to be what Paul was suggesting. Waaaaaaay too many. It's amazing that 1) all these clear non-OSAS passages have to be made to 'not really' mean what they so plainly say, and 2) so many people are willing to do that! It's scary that the church has come to this!

 

[GodsGrace]

Thanks for admitting that your views are based on assumption. But what leads to thinking that such assumption is a correct one? Your view places all emphasis of being saved on your own continuing action. Yet, we know from Jesus that one is saved when one believes, even when using the aorist tense.

I'm led to believe that what I assumed is correct precisely because of what you say above:
One is saved when one believes.
You believe = You're saved
You don't believe = You're not saved
You stop believing = You're not saved

Salvation is based on belief.

BTW, Jesus didn't just say you have to believe, He said you have to live the Christian life. He actually came to show us a better way to live. This is apparent from His discourse in Mathew 5: 2-10, The Beatitudes.

If your view about continuing belief being necessary for staying saved, then neither Jesus or Paul would have ever used the aorist tense when speaking about being saved on the basis of believing in Christ.

See above. Also, please see my post no. 672. We should also consider Christian theology when discussing such important issues, and not only individual verses which count for very little and must be seen as part of a complete thought.

No, I never asked you that question. I asked if you believe what Jesus said about having eternal life. Which is a different question altogether.

Do you believe what Jesus said about having eternal life WHEN one believes in Him, and that those He gives eternal life to will never perish?

I apologize. I misunderstood you.
Yes. Absolutely. I agree with everything you say here.
WHEN one BELIEVES in Christ, that person has eternal life.
Those He GIVES eternal life to will never perish.

Wondering

 

[smaller]

Ephesians 2:
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Does anyone really see Jesus dangling those He "has saved" over potential eternal torture flames in the above?

Does anyone who believes see any kind of point in posing such a threat to themselves? For what cause? For what reasons? To extract some kind of performances that we couldn't make to begin with?


2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

God in Christ did not save me so that I had to face the potential eternal flames of hell for the remainder of my life. No, not at ALL. It's not even on the table.

Eventually, after being "exposed" to these various threat mongers in christianity, I questioned their motives in making such threats. Today I consider such issuance's demonic in origin.

Faith does not come by threats. Nor do threats to perform extracted by dangling believers over eternal torture change ONE IOTA the fact of being a sinner, saved by faith in Christ through His Grace and Mercy, alone.

No one, no, not one person who believes has made themselves a non-sinner after salvation, EVER. Nor did a single believer earn their way into heaven by adequate performances of themselves, alone. That whole notion is utter nonsense. The Truth is we are simply SAVED, past tense, upon belief. End of story.

If believers feel the need to threaten themselves, that alone speaks to the facts of their continuing status as sinners and nothing more. Which faith didn't change to being non-sinners before or after salvation in any case of sights.

Believers can threaten themselves til the cows come home and it still won't make them sinless nor will any sinner earn their way past the reality of being one.

This entire notion of people thinking they can make themselves sinless or able to "earn" eternal salvation is in fact a deception of sin and evil present within such people, trying to con them into thinking they can move their status off being a sinner when it is in fact IMPOSSIBLE. None of us were given that option in the scriptures. We're sinners. Deal with it.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes.
In Mark we see clearly that Jesus is talking about the literal fiery hell:

Really? Well, let's read the passage.

"42“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea. 43“If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44[where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 45“If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell,46[where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 47“If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,48where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, ANDTHE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED." (Mark 9:42-48 NASB caps and italics in original, bold mine)

So, there are worms in hell. Nice to know.

The mistake being made is thinking that just because Jesus uses a metaphor (not hyperbole) for the members of His body ('eye', 'foot', 'hand') that the whole teaching must then be a metaphor. But, as we can plainly see the hell he is talking about in the teaching is very, very literal.

Actually, not.

Have you dismembered any of your own body parts, yet? If not, what are you waiting for? Aren't you following Jesus? And doing what He says?

Jesus himself says that it is better to cut off those who cause real believers to stumble so as to be cast into actual hell. But OSAS claims real believers can never under any circumstances be cast into hell--not even if they become unbelievers according to your particular branch of OSAS doctrine.

Jesus said that those who believe HAVE eternal life in John 5:24 and those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH in John 10:28. Your views are in direct contrast to what Jesus taught.

That's not what Jesus says. So, we know that eternal life not being able to be revoked from a person who actually possesses it is NOT what Paul is addressing in Romans 11:29 NASB. Otherwise Jesus and Paul are in DIRECT CONTRADICTION.

Nope. It is your own views that are in direct contradiction to what both Jesus and Paul said.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Thanks for admitting that your views are based on assumption. But what leads to thinking that such assumption is a correct one? Your view places all emphasis of being saved on your own continuing action. Yet, we know from Jesus that one is saved when one believes, even when using the aorist tense."

I'm led to believe that what I assumed is correct precisely because of what you say above:
One is saved when one believes.
You believe = You're saved
You don't believe = You're not saved
You stop believing = You're not saved

There is nothing I posted that would lead anyone to your assumption. What you're led to believe is based solely on assumption. There is nothing in the Bible that would lead one to your conclusions.

Salvation is based on belief.

That isn't the debate. We all know that. The debate is where does the Bible teach that salvation can be taken away? No where. Again, just assumption.

BTW, Jesus didn't just say you have to believe, He said you have to live the Christian life.

It's actually commanded. But not for salvation. If it were, then that would be a works based salvation, and Paul thoroughly refutes that idea in 2 places:
Rom 4:4,5 - 4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Eph 2:8,9 - 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

I asked this:
"Do you believe what Jesus said about having eternal life WHEN one believes in Him, and that those He gives eternal life to will never perish?"

I apologize. I misunderstood you.
Yes. Absolutely. I agree with everything you say here.
WHEN one BELIEVES in Christ, that person has eternal life.
Those He GIVES eternal life to will never perish.

Wondering

Then why the push back on OSAS or eternal security?

 

[GodsGrace]

I said this:
"Thanks for admitting that your views are based on assumption. But what leads to thinking that such assumption is a correct one? Your view places all emphasis of being saved on your own continuing action. Yet, we know from Jesus that one is saved when one believes, even when using the aorist tense."

There is nothing I posted that would lead anyone to your assumption. What you're led to believe is based solely on assumption. There is nothing in the Bible that would lead one to your conclusions.

That isn't the debate. We all know that. The debate is where does the Bible teach that salvation can be taken away? No where. Again, just assumption.

It's actually commanded. But not for salvation. If it were, then that would be a works based salvation, and Paul thoroughly refutes that idea in 2 places:
Rom 4:4,5 - 4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Eph 2:8,9 - 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

I asked this:
"Do you believe what Jesus said about having eternal life WHEN one believes in Him, and that those He gives eternal life to will never perish?"

Then why the push back on OSAS or eternal security?

You read the bible and come up with doctrine.
I read the bible and come up with assumptions. Interesting.

Did you read what I said about Sanctification?
Have you considered this doctrine or do we go round and round with the same verses day after day?
Again, I agree with you:
One is saved WHEN ONE BELIEVES. As long as one believes, he is saved. BELIEVES, NOT believed.

I see you're looking for somewhere in the bible where it says that salvation can be taken away.

WHERE in the bible is the doctrine of the Trinity or Triune Godhead?

Did I say works save us? I don't know of any church that teaches this. I'm not saying there aren't any, I just don't know of them.

And, last but certainly not least, I believe EVERYTHING Jesus said. And yes, He did say a person would have eternal life WHEN one BELIEVES in Him and to THAT person He gives eternal life and that person will not perish.

We could run through some scripture quickly that will show why I "assume" a person can lose his salvation.
The only reason I believe this is important is because many tell me that works are not necessary and I fear they believe OSAS so they do not feel obligated to do good works as Jesus commanded.


These versus show that salvation can be lost. I do not believe it is a common occuance, but I do believe it is possible.

Matthew 10:22: "...he that endureth to the end shall be saved." The implication is that someone who does not stands firm to the end will not be saved.

John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that that everyone who believes in him might not perish, but may have eternal life." (NAB) The NIV translation of this verse (described above) implies that everyone who believes "shall" have eternal life. The Amplified Bible agrees. But other translations use alternative words: "should," "may," or "might." These latter version of the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) imply that saved persons may have eternal life or possibly may perish. Presumably they could lose their salvation by their actions.

John 15:6: "If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up , thrown into the fire and burned." (NIV) A person who "does not remain" in Jesus is apparently a saved person whose behavior or thoughts have become unacceptable. Throwing the formerly saved person into the fire and burning them is an obvious reference to Hell.

1 Corinthians 15-2: "By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain."Paul apparently believes that a person is only saved if they continue to believe in the gospel. If they lose faith in the gospel, they lose their salvation.

Galatians 6:8-9: "The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in going good, for at the proper time, we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." (NIV) This makes salvation dependent on an individual continually working towards their goal of attaining eternal life. If a person gives up prematurely, then they would lose their salvation.

2 Timothy 2:12: "If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us." Elsewhere in the Bible a number of verses refer to saved persons reigning with Jesus. So, the "we" in this passage means saved individuals. But if we "deny and disown and reject" (Amplified Bible) Jesus, then he will do the same to us, and terminate our salvation.

Hebrews 6:4-6: "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the son of God afresh and put him to an open shame." The first two verses define precisely an individual who had being saved and was receiving the benefits of salvation. The last verse states clearly that a person is quite capable of falling away from the faith...and if they do so, that it is impossible for their salvation to be renewed.

Hebrews 10:26: "For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." The early Christians universally believed that this passage referred to persons who had been saved, had continued to sin, and had thereby lost their salvation.

2 Peter 2:20-21: "For if after they have escaped the pollution's of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered onto them." The first verse appears to refer to persons who have turned away from the corruption of the world, have been saved, and later returned entangled in the world. The implication is that these people will be more viciously treated after death by God's wrath than those people who were never saved.

Losing one's salvation through forbidden behaviors:
Three verses from the Christian Scriptures seem to imply that certain behaviors will cancel a person's salvation. Three passages declare absolutely that all persons who perform certain behaviors will not "inherit the kingdom of God". These verses seem to be absolute. That is, they apply to everyone, even to those who have been previously saved:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11: "Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God."(ASV)
St. Paul states hat some members of the church at Corinth were once following some of the behaviors listed and would thus not inherit the kingdom of God. But after they were saved, they changed their behavior. But the passage does seem to state unambiguously that all individuals who commit one of the forbidden sins after having been saved will go to hell.

There are many more and many have been posted on this thread.

Wondering

 

[FreeGrace]

You read the bible and come up with doctrine.
I read the bible and come up with assumptions. Interesting.

Yes, I'd say so. Apparently our differences are that the Bible isn't all that clear to you and therefore, assumptions must be made. I think the Bible is quite clear on the issues we've been discussing.

Did you read what I said about Sanctification?

I don't recall. Was your post to me or someone else? Are you aware that the Bible deals with 2 kinds of sanctification?

Have you considered this doctrine or do we go round and round with the same verses day after day?

I'm not sure what is being referred to here.

Again, I agree with you:
One is saved WHEN ONE BELIEVES. As long as one believes, he is saved. BELIEVES, NOT believed.

The aorist tense is basically treated as a past tense verb.

And again, your view is simply an assumption of what's not stated in Scripture.

For your views to be biblical, there would be verses that clearly teach that salvation can be lost, that eternal life can be revoked. But it doesn't. One must assume that view.

I see you're looking for somewhere in the bible where it says that salvation can be taken away.

That would be the way to determine biblical doctrine. I would never assume what the Bible never says.

WHERE in the bible is the doctrine of the Trinity or Triune Godhead?

Well, one sure doesn't have to assume the Trinity exists from the Bible.

2 Cor 13:14 - May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

There are many verses that call these three "God". So one doesn't need to assume anything in order to understand that the Bible teaches that "God is Three in One"

Did I say works save us? I don't know of any church that teaches this. I'm not saying there aren't any, I just don't know of them.

Your words highly suggest that works save and lack of works remove salvation.

And, last but certainly not least, I believe EVERYTHING Jesus said. And yes, He did say a person would have eternal life WHEN one BELIEVES in Him and to THAT person He gives eternal life and that person will not perish.

In order to be consistent, there MUST be verses that also warn that salvation/eternal life can be lost.

Where are they?

I ask this because for one who has been given eternal life and "never perish" yet the possibility exists for that person to end up in hell, has to lose eternal life.

No one can go to hell having eternal life. That's a total contradiction. So, if one can lose eternal life, there MUST be a verse that says so.

Where is it?

We could run through some scripture quickly that will show why I "assume" a person can lose his salvation.

There is no need, because I totally discount assumption when forming doctrines.

The only reason I believe this is important is because many tell me that works are not necessary and I fear they believe OSAS so they do not feel obligated to do good works as Jesus commanded.

So your views are driven by this fear?

Works are not necessary for salvation.
Works are totally necessary for God's blessings and eternal reward.

Why wouldn't this satisfy your fears?

These versus show that salvation can be lost. I do not believe it is a common occuance, but I do believe it is possible.

I'm not going to exegete all these verses. But I will point out that not one of them addresses loss of salvation. It's just another assumption to think they do.

Every verse/passage can be easily explained (not "explained away" as many will charge) to show that it is not addressing loss of salvation.

But I do understand that many have assumed they are referring to loss of salvation.

Losing one's salvation through forbidden behaviors:
Three verses from the Christian Scriptures seem to imply that certain behaviors will cancel a person's salvation. Three passages declare absolutely that all persons who perform certain behaviors will not "inherit the kingdom of God". These verses seem to be absolute. That is, they apply to everyone, even to those who have been previously saved:

The problem is "seem to imply". Again, more assumption. Those who understand that the issue is having or not having an inheritance IN the kingdom, such assumptions fall away.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11: "Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God."(ASV)
St. Paul states hat some members of the church at Corinth were once following some of the behaviors listed and would thus not inherit the kingdom of God. But after they were saved, they changed their behavior. But the passage does seem to state unambiguously that all individuals who commit one of the forbidden sins after having been saved will go to hell.

There are many more and many have been posted on this thread.

Wondering

There are 2 other parallel passages to the one in 1 Cor 6.

Gal 5:19 - and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

This verse is nearly identical to 1 Cor 6; "will not inherit the kingdom of God".

But consider the 3rd parallel passage:
Eph 5:5 - For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God

The conditions for either having no inheritance in or not inheriting the kingdom are parallel. A lifestyle of immorality, etc will cause the person to either have no inheritance in the kingdom, or to not inherit the kingdom.

My point is this: the passages are parallel. The only difference is that Eph 5:5 says "no inheritance IN the kingdom" while the other 2 say "will not inherit the kingdom".

Since the reasons for this loss are parallel, the 2 different phrases are parallel. They mean the same thing.

The key is that the Eph passage says clearly "will have no inheritance IN the kingdom. Obviously, it says nothing about not getting INTO the kingdom. It does say "have no inheritance IN the kingdom".

So, to "not inherit the kingdom" is equal to "have no inheritance IN the kingdom".

The phrase "not inherit the kingdom" does not say will not get INTO the kingdom. It is a false assumption to think that is what it means.

But I thank you for acknowledging that your doctrine is based on assumption rather than what the Word of God plainly says. And that there are no verses that plainly say that salvation can be lost.

otoh, there are clear verses that are plain about eternal security. But the anti-OSAS folk just explain them away.

The most simple logic is this:
IF A = B, and B = C, then A = C. This is not refutable.

I will apply this logic to eternal security from Rom 6:23 and 11:29

SINCE eternal life (A) is a gift of God (6:23) (B), and the gifts of God (B) are irrevocable (11:29) (C), THEN eternal life (A) is irrevocable (C).

These 2 verses in Romans obviously indicate that eternal life cannot be lost, revoked, taken away, given away, etc.