Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

[dirtfarmer]

A. The Church, the Ecclesia, the called out holy nation of God, began with Abraham, which is why the scriptures tells us we are children of Abraham through faith in Jesus Christ.

• Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.Galatians 3:7

• And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3:29

• that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Galatians 3:14

We are "grafted in" to the natural Olive tree, which is supported by the root.


B. “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.” Matthew 18:35

This principle was taught to His disciples to be taught to their disciples for all the Church to obey.

19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. Matthew 28:19-20

• All the nations is a reference to Gentiles as well as Jews.
• Teaching them to observe the things I have commanded you... defiantly refers to the principle of forgiveness Jesus taught them.

If you don't think what Jesus taught Peter is valid, and does not apply to the Church today as part of the doctrine of Christ, and the Apostles doctrine, then what teaching would apply to us today?


Can we find this principle in Paul's letters?

• And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you. Ephesians 4:32

• bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. Colossians 3:13

JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

While I will agree that "the Holy Nation" was "called out of Egypt"( a type of the world), but as scripture states it was a nation of God's people, not an assembly of believers in Christ as our heavenly savior. They were promised an earthly kingdom, with an earthly ruler.

As I have stated before: Matthew 28:19-20 was given to the "eleven" not to the Church. During the 1000 year kingdom, the "KINGDOM OF PRIEST", which will be the 12,000 from each tribe that have been sealed during the tribulation will become that earthy kingdom to fulfill Matthew 29:19-20. They will preach to all nations(Gentiles) the gospel of the kingdom: endurance to the end or until death for salvation.

 

[smaller]

I am sorry but your post has not much to do with what I posted.

You wouldn't be the first believer I've ran into that said, in effect, you have to read the whole Bible. And if you did, you'd believe exactly like me. And if you don't believe exactly like me, you might be going to hell.

I try to find the common denominator with all of us, that being, none of us see Perfectly.

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Do the above facts enable any of us to say another sinner/believer is or may be going to hell? Never. Such people are only guessing, and missing the obvious. God in Christ saves sinners who call upon Him to save them. End of story.

1 Tim. 1:15.

 

[th1b.taylor]

You wouldn't be the first believer I've ran into that said, in effect, you have to read the whole Bible. And if you did, you'd believe exactly like me. And if you don't believe exactly like me, you might be going to hell.

I try to find the common denominator with all of us, that being, none of us see Perfectly.

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Do the above facts enable any of us to say another sinner/believer is or may be going to hell? Never. Such people are only guessing, and missing the obvious. God in Christ saves sinners who call upon Him to save them. End of story.

1 Tim. 1:15.

You are going off on a wild tangent and I'm not going there with you.

 

[smaller]

You are going off on a wild tangent and I'm not going there with you.

I will confess to calling believers on the carpet of scriptural reality, those who condemn other believers to possible hell for being sinners and exonerating themselves. Romans 2:1.

Then they invariably get angry, as predictable as rain.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I will confess to calling believers on the carpet of scriptural reality, those who condemn other believers to possible hell for being sinners and exonerating themselves. Romans 2:1.

Then they invariably get angry, as predictable as rain.

I have not condemned you to Hell, I have not tried to exonerate my sin and I regret that you are acting just like the chief agitator on these forums and to attempt to place lying words in my mouth. This conversation was, by you, turned into something out of the pits of the Abyss rather quickly and it is now finished. In the name of Jesus, get the behind me Satan!

 

[smaller]

I have not condemned you to Hell, I have not tried to exonerate my sin and I regret that you are acting just like the chief agitator on these forums and to attempt to place lying words in my mouth. This conversation was, by you, turned into something out of the pits of the Abyss rather quickly and it is now finished. In the name of Jesus, get the behind me Satan!

Whatever you think you hear Bill, I'd suggest you are easily angered. I've spent nearly 13 years here and never once condemned any believer to possible hell, ever. So, what is it you think you're hearing, that makes you so angry?

John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God in Christ saves sinners who call upon Him to save them.

If a believer stops calling on the name of the Lord and they take the mark of the beast are they still saved and have eternal life?

 

[th1b.taylor]

If a believer stops calling on the name of the Lord and they take the mark of the beast are they still saved and have eternal life?

They were never saved! The Church is filled with these people. They are very religious but have never surrendered their will to the LORD and therefore, are not saved. If in a Baptist Church, they were dunked and the ygot all wet but they are just deceived.

 

[smaller]

If a believer stops calling on the name of the Lord and they take the mark of the beast are they still saved and have eternal life?

What makes you think the above can happen?

Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What makes you think the above can happen?

Because Jesus warned us that there are those who will cause believers in Him to stumble so as to be cast into the fiery hell:

"6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
7“Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!
8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:6-9 NASB underline and bold mine)

Jesus says it's better to cut off the parts of the body that cause the other parts to stumble and go to the fiery hell. Do you disagree with Jesus? Was Jesus just blowing smoke when he warned us to get rid of eyes, and feet, and hands that cause the body to stumble and go to hell because that supposedly can't happen?

 

[FreeGrace]

I quoted this verse:
"1. they HAVE eternal life, they WILL NOT come into condemnation, and HAVE PASSED from spiritual death to spiritual life, per John 5:24"

If they do not walk according to the flesh.

My Bible does have these added words to the verse, as you've done. I recognize Paul's words, but Jesus did NOT cite them when He spoke the words of John 5:24.

Such "mix and match" of verses in an attempt to support your point isn't how to do it. Find verses that actually say what is claimed.

Jesus added NO SUCH condition to His 3 promises in John 5:24. This is what He promised those who believe:
1. HAVE eternal life
2. WILL NOT come into condemnation
3. HAVE PASSED from (spiritual) death to (eternal) life

If there is any disagreement with my points, please address them one by one and provide plainly stated Scripture that contradicts any of my stated points.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

Nice verse. I believe it. However, comparing all the translations from the "Biblegateway" website, translations with the ending in your translation are far less than translations without the ending in your translation.

It appears that those translations based on the much LATER copies of the Greek have included "who do not walk according to the flesh", such as the KJV and a few others.

Those translations based on much EARLIER copies of the Greek DO NOT include that phrase.

Just think about it: if not being condemned was based on "not walking per the flesh, but walking according to the Spirit", then condemnation would be based on actions rather than on faith in Christ.

So, consider John 3:18 - “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

To be condemned is to be judged. We see from Jesus' own words that judgment or condemnation is based on NOT believing in the Son of God.

Why are you always trying to pit Scripture against itself?

If we apply your method of interpretation to these two verse's, here is what it looks like.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
JLB

The most simple logic is this:
IF A = B, and B = C, then A = C. This is not refutable.

I will apply this logic to eternal security from Rom 6:23 and 11:29

SINCE eternal life (A) is a gift of God (6:23) (B), and the gifts of God (B) are irrevocable (11:29) (C), THEN eternal life (A) is irrevocable (C).

These 2 verses in Romans obviously indicate that eternal life cannot be lost, revoked, taken away, given away, etc.

That is how to understand and relate Rom 6:23 with Rom 11:29. The subject in BOTH verses is about God's gifts. 6:23 speaks of one of His gifts, eternal life. 11:29 speaks of ALL of God's gifts, since Paul didn't say otherwise.

Is eternal life a gift of God or not? A simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice.

Are the gifts of God irrevocable or not? A simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice.

 

[FreeGrace]

Just because metaphors are being used doesn't mean those metaphors don't represent actual things.

It seems your view of the passage is rather picky as to what should be taken literally and what shouldn't. How are we to believe that such judging of how to take words has fallen to you?

Especially since Jesus plainly said he was talking about "the fiery hell".

And He was also "plainly" talking about worms and dismemberment and self-mutilation as well.

It's pretty amazing that now even 'hell' is being redefined to make a clear and plain non-OSAS passage not be non-OSAS. Pretty amazing.

Here is what is really amazing: Rom 6:23 and 11:29 teach that eternal life, a gift of God, isn't irrevocable, even though Paul stated that God's gifts ARE irrevocable. How's that for amazing! A direct contradiction.

The downfall is, you tell believers they can take the mark of the beast in a denying of Christ and they will still have eternal life.[/QUOT]
You really do know better than to say what is NOT true. I've NEVER said such nonsense. In fact, I have posted that no believer will take the mark of the beast.

But that is changing the words of the prophecy of Revelation. People who take the mark of the beast will be tormented in fire and brimstone, not have the eternal life Christ died to give his people:

I challenged your side to show from Scripture that believers will take the mark. No one stepped up to the plate.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It seems your view of the passage is rather picky as to what should be taken literally and what shouldn't.

How is your redefining of 'fiery hell' the eternal life that Christ died to give us?

And He was also "plainly" talking about worms and dismemberment and self-mutilation as well.

Then, please, explain how all these things, whatever they actually represent, are the eternal life Christ gives to the believer?
Obviously, these things do not represent Christ's eternal life at all, but the loss of it.
Obviously, 'fiery hell' that will never be quenched, and being eaten by worms is NOT eternal life. It's absurd for OSAS to claim it is. Absolutely absurd.

"6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:6,8-9 NASB)

Explain how the one who believes in Christ and then stumbles so as to be in a fiery hell is not that believer losing his eternal life.

I challenged your side to show from Scripture that believers will take the mark. No one stepped up to the plate.

I think it incumbent on you to show us in the Bible that they won't/can't. It's your argument. You're the one that has to do the proving, not non-OSAS. John exhorts believers to have patient endurance and not take the mark of the beast:

11And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus." (Revelation 14:11-12 NASB)

I've NEVER said such nonsense. In fact, I have posted that no believer will take the mark of the beast.

It's interesting that you say a believer in Christ can do anything and everything else, even no longer believe in Christ, etc., yet in order to preserve an OSAS doctrine and not be condemned by this obvious non-OSAS passage you decide that the believer will never do this one thing. That's some pretty unreasonable doctrine.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So you think it beneficial to cast them into possible hell? Is that your claim?

That's what Jesus said. Your complaint is with him, not me.

"6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:6,8-9 NASB)

When someone teaches things that cause his people to stumble, so as to be cast into the fiery hell, HE, not me, said it is better to cut those people off so the rest of the body doesn't go to the unquenchable fire--the very thing OSAS swears can not happen to believers in Christ.

 

[FreeGrace]

How is your redefining of 'fiery hell' the eternal life that Christ died to give us?

I haven't redefined anything. So I can't answer your question.

I said this:
"And He was also "plainly" talking about worms and dismemberment and self-mutilation as well."

Then, please, explain how all these things, whatever they actually represent, are the eternal life Christ gives to the believer?

What a strange question. They aren't "the eternal life Christ gives to the believer". So again, I can't answer your question.

Obviously, these things do not represent Christ's eternal life at all, but the loss of it.

They certainly DON'T represent that. Because eternal life is a gift of God, and the gifts of God are irrevocable, even though some or many don't believe those 2 verses in Romans.

I think it incumbent on you to show us in the Bible that they won't/can't. It's your argument.

Since eternal life is a gift of God, and the gifts of God are irrevocable, I have nothing more to prove.

Edited

 

[JohnDB]

Shutting down for review

 

[JohnDB]

OK
Please re-familiarise yourselves of the new rules before posting.

The use of the second person pronoun is not against the rules but it is highly discouraged.

 

[JLB]

My Bible does have these added words to the verse, as you've done. I recognize Paul's words, but Jesus did NOT cite them when He spoke the words of John 5:24.

You mentioned the word condemned.


So does Paul.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1


So does Jesus -

15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:15-16

Do you believe what Jesus said?

...he who does not believe will be condemned.


Those who believe for a while, then no longer believer, are no longer believers, because they no longer believe.


These will be condemned.



JLB

 

[smaller]

That's what Jesus said. Your complaint is with him, not me.

"6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:6,8-9 NASB)

When someone teaches things that cause his people to stumble, so as to be cast into the fiery hell, HE, not me, said it is better to cut those people off so the rest of the body doesn't go to the unquenchable fire--the very thing OSAS swears can not happen to believers in Christ.

Who would cause a believer to stumble than those who commit them to possible hell?

And who does not enter LIFE in that claim to them.

Your assumption is that "SIN" causes a believer to stumble. Since we are all sinners beyond any dispute, that can not possibly be the cause of stumbling. No one rids their flesh of indwelling sin and evil present with them. Romans 7:17-21. What does cause stumbling is threatening believers to possible hell for sin when all are sinners in any cases of honest sights. This fact, of being sinners also establishes salvation through faith in Christ, by His Grace and Mercy, and not of works which can't make any person sinless enough to earn eternal salvation, because that's not going to happen.

Don't you find it a tad hard to potentially condemn believers to eternal torture for not making themselves sinless, when that option isn't even on the scriptural table to begin with?

I learned the "lesson" of 2 Cor. 5:19 a couple plus decades back, and it, that Word, allowed me to LOVE my fellow believers, regardless of their factual state of being sinners. Is this such a hard lesson? Why?

 

[JLB]

Jesus added NO SUCH condition to His 3 promises in John 5:24. This is what He promised those who believe:
1. HAVE eternal life
2. WILL NOT come into condemnation
3. HAVE PASSED from (spiritual) death to (eternal) life

If there is any disagreement with my points, please address them one by one and provide plainly stated Scripture that contradicts any of my stated points.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24


All three of the points are His promise to those who believe.


Those who believe for a while, then no longer believer, are no longer believers, because they no longer believe.


You keep trying to convince the good people of this Forum, that those who don't believe anymore are still somehow afforded the promise given to those who believe.

Nonsense!




JLB