Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

[Jethro Bodine]

So, there are worms in hell. Nice to know.

I knew this is where you'd go--you'd start debating what hell actually is like to draw away from the point that Jesus is talking about real believers going to hell. Which is the point: Jesus is talking about the actual fiery hell. He's using the very language the Bible uses when talking about the actual place where the damned go. He's quoting Isaiah 66:24 NASB...

"22“For just as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I make will endure before Me,” declares the LORD,
“So your offspring and your name will endure.

23“And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from sabbath to sabbath,
All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the LORD.

24“Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be quenched;
And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.”
(Isaiah 66:22-24 NASB bold mine)

That's not a description of eternal life. And Jesus calls it 'the fiery hell'. You have zero argument that Jesus is not talking about the hell where the damned go.

Now, with that settled, he says we are to get rid of those in the body who cause those who believe in him to stumble so as to be condemned to the actual fiery hell. But OSAS says that it is impossible that someone who believes in him can stumble so as to go to hell. That's not what Jesus says, as we can all see with our own eyes in Mark 9:42-48 NASB. It's the Achilles heal of the OSAS doctrine. It can't be overcome so as to make the plain words mean something else. It's the death blow to OSAS doctrine.

Have you dismembered any of your own body parts, yet?

You're not reading the passage carefully enough. The parts of the body that are to be cut off are those who cause genuine believers in Christ to stumble so as to go to the fiery hell.

It's ironic that those who tell believers in Christ that they can deny Christ and they are still saved are themselves the parts of the body that Jesus says to cut off so we won't go to hell.

Jesus said that those who believe HAVE eternal life in John 5:24 and those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH in John 10:28. Your views are in direct contrast to what Jesus taught.

The above scriptures are absolutely true for believers who stay the course and continue to believe. But if true believers are caused to stumble--perhaps by obeying a doctrine that tells them they can deny Christ and they will still be saved--those believers will indeed go to the fiery hell as we can plainly read for ourselves:

"whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

7“Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!

8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:6-9 NASB bold and underline mine)

Those who cause believers to stumble are what is to be cut off, so true believers in Jesus won't go to the fiery hell. Those who destroy the temple of God will themselves be destroyed (1 Corinthians 3:17 NASB). And those who take away and add to the prophecy in Revelation by saying, for example, that it's impossible to lose eternal life will themselves lose their part in the eternal life/kingdom to come and will be cast into the lake of fire instead (Revelation 22:19 NASB).

 

[dirtfarmer]

28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”
Matthew 18:28-35

We were forgiven and cleansed of our sins, which made us righteous before God.

Justified means to be made righteous.

Jesus taught we can indeed lose the forgiveness we received, the very thing by which we are justified, if we don't forgive others.



JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

Jesus had not been crucified at that point therefore the Church was not established yet.

 

[dirtfarmer]

First let me thank you for your concern. I truly believe that is very nice of you. We Christians should be concerned for each other.
Romans 12:10

I also appreciate that you explained all the terms you used in parenthesis. That was thoughtful.

1. My father was a believer. He died of alzheimers at 87. I'm also sorry for your mother. Did I include these two people and others like them in my discourse to you regarding having to believe at the time of death? I think not.
Do you suppose handicapped children could be saved or do you think they cannot because they don't understand all those words you explained to me in parenthesis?

I'm sure 100% that your answer will match my answer.

2. You explain the word Justification.
Have you ever considered the word Sanctification?

You're absolutely correct that Justification is a work of God. He alone can Justify. We have nothing to do with it other than to call on His name and believe.

But what does Sanctification mean?
Sanctification is an ONGOING process that requires both God and man. Sanctification will not take place without the participation of man - God will not sanctify us unless we WANT Him to. This is a work of the Holy Spirit.

Justification and Sanctification work hand in hand. You cannot have one without the other. This means that if the Sanctification process ends, the Justification of the person will also come to an end. You cannot have one without the other.

If you read Acts 26:18 you'll find that Jesus is telling Paul that he will be sent to the gentiles to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light and from the power of satan to the power of God so that they may receive forgiveness of sin and a place among those who were sanctified by FAITH IN CHRIST.

So, if you have faith in Christ and follow in His ways, you can be sanctified by Him and through Him.
If you do NOT have faith in Christ through unbelief in Him, then Sanctification stops and so does Justification.

BTW, Sanctification requires works. In fact, all Jesus spoke about was works. We don't like to hear that word too much nowadays, but the bible is full of this idea. Just try 1 Thessalonians 4:1-12, 1 Peter 1:1-2 just for starters.

Does this mean I believe in works for salvation? No.
Does this mean I believe in works for Sanctification? Yes.


Thank you for clarifying.
I agree with everything you've said.
You say that if I die in unbelief I'm headed for the Lake of Fire.
You say that it is the Spirit dwelling within us that allows us to be saved.
I couldn't agree more.
So if I DO NOT BELIEVE, I am lost. Correct.
If I DO NOT have the Holy Spirit indwelling, I am lost. Correct.
IOW, I must BELIEVE and possess the Holy Spirit at the time of my death, to be saved and be with God.

Do you suppose the Holy Spirit would remain indwelling in me if I hated Him and didn't want Him with me?
Or if I became a cheat and liar and drunkard and adulterer? I think not.


Nothing and no one can separate us from the love of God. However, I myself can decide I noj longer wish to serve God but wish to serve satan. Can two masters live in the same house? NO.

Regarding people with children. A child will always remain the child of the parents.
But they could write a child out of a will.
Did you ever consider that the NEW TESTAMENT is a will? A will that takes effect after Jesus' death, just like in our case. We will always be God's children, but we will be written OUT OF THE WILL. Out of the New Covenant. If you're not in the New Covenant, you're not saved.


1. No answer from me because:
Have I said anything to make you believe I don't know scripture?
Your question implies that a priest who is a theologian somehow has it all wrong since you're pitting his knowledge with scripture.

2. So you teach. Nice. At what university? Do you have a Ph.D. after your name? No. Really...

3. You must understand by now that I DO NOT believe you are in line with scripture, to answer your last question, I'm not chastising you.


Whew!


Wondering

hello Wondering, dirtfarmer here

Thanks for your reply.

I apologize if I came across as a type of Pharisee. I didn't intend to. My intentions were not to question your knowledge of scripture.

The only initials that I have behind my name is "believer".

I would appreciate if you would clear up a question that I have about your answer. I think I have a misunderstanding. In your statement: "We will always be God's children, but we will be written out of the will." Do you believe that some of the children of God will be in the lake of fire.?
thanks dirtfarmer

 

[eddif]

What about Matthew 24.12 But he that shall endure to the end shall be saved...would not the reverse of this be true. I believe we cannot lose our salvation but as I have mentioned in another post this scripture is one which puzzles me along with

Revelation 14. 9-12
9Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.11“And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”12Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Revelation 22:19 KJV
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Actually my post was just a different translation of a previous other persons post.

Note however:
1. Book of life (seperate from works of flesh)
2. Holy city ( probably New Jerusalem
(As contrasted to original Jerusalem)
3. Other written things

Your Matthew 24:12 and other scriptures have to be paralled with the appropriate place (heaven etc.). Way too often we do not accept
Romans 7:25 as letting different things be seperate in the same sentence.

The legal declaration of who we are, awaits the judgement day for final change of the flesh. That Romans scripture makes some tear clothes even today. Scripture does not contradict itself. Mississippi has so much vegetation you sometimes can not see more than 50ft. And what is 52ft away is an open field (a whole other world).

Our pet thoughts are sometimes not others area of acceptance.


I await clearer vision.

eddif

 

[smaller]

Our pet thoughts are sometimes not others area of acceptance. I await clearer vision.

eddif

The answer to the question is actually pretty easy. We just don't care to look at it.

Here is an example:

Matthew 16:23
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Jesus, in the above, could have just as easily said unto Peter, Satan, you know you are going to land in the Lake of Fire. Because that is true. But a person who can't see two parties in the equation of Peter, that being Peter AND Satan, just can't seem to get the picture on the subject of hell and how that DOES relate to what we quite wrongly perceive as "just a believer." There is no such animal in scripture as "just a believer." We have to see TWO parties IF we want to see "accurately."

Here is the same equation:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Is ONE OF THE PARTIES above going to hell? You can take that scriptural fact to the bank. Absolutely that IS the case.

The real question is, WHY don't we see the obvious?

Here is the obvious, yet again:

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Christians are pretty adept at denying "their sin" is of the devil. They much more prefer to just blame and accuse themselves, or exonerate themselves. But ONE OF THE PARTIES ABOVE is assuredly going to eternal HELL.

Paul isolates this matter even further, defining the "sin" that dwelt in his own flesh as "NO MORE I." Twice for emphasis.

Romans 7:
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

IF sin is of the devil, then who is NO MORE I? That answer should be pretty obvious, particularly if we see the reality of 2 Cor. 12:7 because Paul flat out nails the matter right on the head who "NO MORE I" is.

Is no more I going to hell? You better believe that is the case. There is no getting around it.

So, we all look at ourselves, and we just see ourselves. Scripture DOES NOT see us that way. Scripture sees us just as it saw Paul:

Romans 7:
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

I wonder wonder wonder WHO the evil present with Paul IS?

It's such a mystery that it's set in plain open sight, yet nobody sees it. I think that is pretty wild myself. That such obvious facts can be set right before "believers" eyes and they still can't get the picture here.

Y'all can speculate all you want about this subject. But the fact is, every believer is totting a party in their own flesh called no more I, called SIN, sin being OF THE DEVIL, who happens to be EVIL, that is beyond any question, going to HELL. But we really don't want to see it. Actually, those who don't see it, CAN'T see it. It is impossible for them to see it, unless God OPENS their eyes and ears to the blatantly obvious.

That's how bizarre this subject matter is. We absolutely REFUSE to hear that "evil is present with us." We REFUSE to hear our sin is of the devil. We refuse that the sin that dwells in our flesh is in fact "of the devil, NO MORE I."

Believers will deny these facts of scripture til their dying breath. They will see better on the other side of the grave. Because they will be SAVED and will see quite clearly, in RETROSPECT, what was really going on. They were "confused" by a greater than themselves ADVERSARY the whole time they were in the flesh who happens to do a good job at being evil and at spiritually blinding people.

I mean seriously, even freewillers can't see the obvious problem with unbelievers:

2 Corinthians 4:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

They'll instead stand there with a straight face and claim that other party that is not the person they are blinding has NOTHING to do with the blindness of the unbeliever!

I have to just shake my head at such blindness to the obvious.

Paul had "temptation" in his flesh. Gal. 3:13-14. It's such a mystery WHO TEMPTS, ain't it? Can you spell the "T E M P T E R?"

And we wonder why "the flesh" is against the Spirit? And vice versa? Gal. 5:17

 

[eddif]

The answer to the question is actually pretty easy. We just don't care to look at it.

Here is an example:

Matthew 16:23
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Jesus, in the above, could have just as easily said unto Peter, Satan, you know you are going to land in the Lake of Fire. Because that is true. But a person who can't see two parties in the equation of Peter, that being Peter AND Satan, just can't seem to get the picture on the subject of hell and how that DOES relate to what we quite wrongly perceive as "just a believer." There is no such animal in scripture as "just a believer." We have to see TWO parties IF we want to see "accurately."

Here is the same equation:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Is ONE OF THE PARTIES above going to hell? You can take that scriptural fact to the bank. Absolutely that IS the case.

The real question is, WHY don't we see the obvious?

Here is the obvious, yet again:

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Christians are pretty adept at denying "their sin" is of the devil. They much more prefer to just blame and accuse themselves, or exonerate themselves. But ONE OF THE PARTIES ABOVE is assuredly going to eternal HELL.

Paul isolates this matter even further, defining the "sin" that dwelt in his own flesh as "NO MORE I." Twice for emphasis.

Romans 7:
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

IF sin is of the devil, then who is NO MORE I? That answer should be pretty obvious, particularly if we see the reality of 2 Cor. 12:7 because Paul flat out nails the matter right on the head who "NO MORE I" is.

Is no more I going to hell? You better believe that is the case. There is no getting around it.

So, we all look at ourselves, and we just see ourselves. Scripture DOES NOT see us that way. Scripture sees us just as it saw Paul:

Romans 7:
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

I wonder wonder wonder WHO the evil present with Paul IS?

It's such a mystery that it's set in plain open sight, yet nobody sees it. I think that is pretty wild myself. That such obvious facts can be set right before "believers" eyes and they still can't get the picture here.

Y'all can speculate all you want about this subject. But the fact is, every believer is totting a party in their own flesh called no more I, called SIN, sin being OF THE DEVIL, who happens to be EVIL, that is beyond any question, going to HELL. But we really don't want to see it. Actually, those who don't see it, CAN'T see it. It is impossible for them to see it, unless God OPENS their eyes and ears to the blatantly obvious.

That's how bizarre this subject matter is. We absolutely REFUSE to hear that "evil is present with us." We REFUSE to hear our sin is of the devil. We refuse that the sin that dwells in our flesh is in fact "of the devil, NO MORE I."

Believers will deny these facts of scripture til their dying breath. They will see better on the other side of the grave. Because they will be SAVED and will see quite clearly, in RETROSPECT, what was really going on. They were "confused" by a greater than themselves ADVERSARY the whole time they were in the flesh who happens to do a good job at being evil and at spiritually blinding people.

I mean seriously, even freewillers can't see the obvious problem with unbelievers:

2 Corinthians 4:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

They'll instead stand there with a straight face and claim that other party that is not the person they are blinding has NOTHING to do with the blindness of the unbeliever!

I have to just shake my head at such blindness to the obvious.

Paul had "temptation" in his flesh. Gal. 3:13-14. It's such a mystery WHO TEMPTS, ain't it? Can you spell the "T E M P T E R?"

And we wonder why "the flesh" is against the Spirit? And vice versa? Gal. 5:17

The lake of fire that punishes evil for eternity.

The purifying fire that occures in us Revelation 3:20 (when the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin).

The provision of entering into His righteousness is there too.

We are pretty much on the same thoughts about sin. I do not deny any of the sin issues, but I do see the solution/ solutions too.

Some see the redemptive issues and deny sin, but both are present till the final trump. Change is coming. The power for the change already exists, but the total fulfillment is coming.

eddif

 

[th1b.taylor]

Y'all can speculate all you want about this subject. But the fact is, every believer is totting a party in their own flesh called no more I, called SIN, sin being OF THE DEVIL,

Basicly I agree but! Where good is there is not evil In 2Cor. 5:17 Paul makes it certain that a saved man cannot be indwelt with the spirit of Darkness because evil has no part with the Holy Spirit. Reasoning all of scripture together because all of them are truth and there is no conflict to the man led of the Spirit, it must then be certain that some agent or agents of Satan work to ruin our salvation but not from within. wish it were easy to understand the spiritual realm but it isn't.

 

[FreeGrace]

I knew this is where you'd go--you'd start debating what hell actually is like to draw away from the point that Jesus is talking about real believers going to hell.

Not at all. Just to show how silly it is to take Jesus' parables literally.

Which is the point: Jesus is talking about the actual fiery hell.

Sure. And worms.

You're not reading the passage carefully enough. The parts of the body that are to be cut off are those who cause genuine believers in Christ to stumble so as to go to the fiery hell.

So by "body parts", Jesus was talking about believers? If the body parts aren't literal, and the worms aren't literal, why is anything else literal? And who gets to make the determination?

It's ironic that those who tell believers in Christ that they can deny Christ and they are still saved are themselves the parts of the body that Jesus says to cut off so we won't go to hell.

I've never told anybody that. If I ever run into a person who used to believe and now doesn't, I'd warn them of very severe discipline from God, having a very miserable life on earth, and be left totally out of blessings and rewards in eternity. Because that's what the Bible teaches.

8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:6-9 NASB bold and underline mine)

I do not subscribe to self mutilation. Neither did Jesus.

Those who cause believers to stumble are what is to be cut off, so true believers in Jesus won't go to the fiery hell. Those who destroy the temple of God will themselves be destroyed (1 Corinthians 3:17 NASB). And those who take away and add to the prophecy in Revelation by saying, for example, that it's impossible to lose eternal life will themselves lose their part in the eternal life/kingdom to come and will be cast into the lake of fire instead (Revelation 22:19 NASB).

In the OT, the phrase "cut off" generally meant to be physically separated from (banished) Israel. Or physical death.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Basicly I agree but! Where good is there is not evil In 2Cor. 5:17 Paul makes it certain that a saved man cannot be indwelt with the spirit of Darkness because evil has no part with the Holy Spirit. Reasoning all of scripture together because all of them are truth and there is no conflict to the man led of the Spirit, it must then be certain that some agent or agents of Satan work to ruin our salvation but not from within. wish it were easy to understand the spiritual realm but it isn't.

hello th1b.taylor, dirtfarmer here

I agree. Good and evil cannot possess the body. Evil's influence is from the outside.

 

[JLB]

1. they HAVE eternal life, they WILL NOT come into condemnation, and HAVE PASSED from spiritual death to spiritual life, per John 5:24

If they do not walk according to the flesh.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

I will apply this logic to eternal security from Rom 6:23 and 11:29

SINCE eternal life (A) is a gift of God (6:23) (B), and the gifts of God (B) are irrevocable (11:29) (C), THEN eternal life (A) is irrevocable (C).

These 2 verses in Romans obviously indicate that eternal life cannot be lost, revoked, taken away, given away, etc.

If we apply your method of interpretation to these two verse's, here is what it looks like.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

2




JLB

 

[JLB]

Jesus had not been crucified at that point therefore the Church was not established yet.

A. The Church, the Ecclesia, the called out holy nation of God, began with Abraham, which is why the scriptures tells us we are children of Abraham through faith in Jesus Christ.

• Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.Galatians 3:7

• And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3:29

• that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Galatians 3:14

We are "grafted in" to the natural Olive tree, which is supported by the root.


B. “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.” Matthew 18:35

This principle was taught to His disciples to be taught to their disciples for all the Church to obey.

19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. Matthew 28:19-20

• All the nations is a reference to Gentiles as well as Jews.
• Teaching them to observe the things I have commanded you... defiantly refers to the principle of forgiveness Jesus taught them.

If you don't think what Jesus taught Peter is valid, and does not apply to the Church today as part of the doctrine of Christ, and the Apostles doctrine, then what teaching would apply to us today?


Can we find this principle in Paul's letters?

• And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you. Ephesians 4:32

• bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. Colossians 3:13

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So by "body parts", Jesus was talking about believers? If the body parts aren't literal, and the worms aren't literal, why is anything else literal? And who gets to make the determination?

Just because metaphors are being used doesn't mean those metaphors don't represent actual things. Especially since Jesus plainly said he was talking about "the fiery hell". It's pretty amazing that now even 'hell' is being redefined to make a clear and plain non-OSAS passage not be non-OSAS. Pretty amazing.

I've never told anybody that. If I ever run into a person who used to believe and now doesn't, I'd warn them of very severe discipline from God, having a very miserable life on earth, and be left totally out of blessings and rewards in eternity. Because that's what the Bible teaches.

The downfall is, you tell believers they can take the mark of the beast in a denying of Christ and they will still have eternal life. But that is changing the words of the prophecy of Revelation. People who take the mark of the beast will be tormented in fire and brimstone, not have the eternal life Christ died to give his people:

“If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11“And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” (Revelation 14:9-11 NASB).

You can twist it anyway you want, but that ain't no eternal life. If John is describing Christ's eternal life in the above passage, he can have it back. I'll give it back to God myself.

The problem for people who teach this is that to tell people they can deny Christ and they still have Christ's eternal life is to change the prophecy of Revelation, and John said that those who do that will themselves will lose their part in the kingdom and eternal life and will go into the lake of fire. So to defend the doctrine that you are defending is to assign yourself the very fate you claim can not ever happen to a believer in Christ. Which to me is truly ironic. People who cause this stumbling of believers are to be cut off from the body so that the rest of us will not stumble and go to the fiery hell:

9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you (who believes in Christ-vs.6) to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:9 NASB)

Jesus himself said the occasion of stumbling brought by some will cause true believers in him to go to the fiery hell, the eternal place of torment for those who deny Him. That's not very OSAS of him. And, so, OSAS is delivered it's kill shot by Jesus himself.

 

[smaller]

Basicly I agree but! Where good is there is not evil In 2Cor. 5:17 Paul makes it certain that a saved man cannot be indwelt with the spirit of Darkness because evil has no part with the Holy Spirit.

Honestly Bill I don't know how anyone could conclude, after reading Paul's analysis of himself in Romans 7:17-21 that evil was not present with him or that sin did not dwell in his flesh, thereby "making" him a sinner, period. And this, by extension, is to all. Romans 3:9.

Do we have darkness, which IS the power of Satan, Acts 26:18, to CAST of the works of? Absolutely we do. Romans 13:12 makes this clear, again.

Reasoning all of scripture together because all of them are truth and there is no conflict to the man led of the Spirit, it must then be certain that some agent or agents of Satan work to ruin our salvation but not from within.

Anyone who is tempted is so internally. That puts temptation within. And yes, that is from our spiritual adversary, the devil (or an underling of same.)

wish it were easy to understand the spiritual realm but it isn't.

It's not easy because indwelling sin and evil present "actively fight" against Spiritual facts. This fight, the warring is in the flesh. Romans 7:23, Gal. 3:13-14, Gal. 5:17. BUT you see, this adversarial component is also a blinding power, and this is WHY believers don't see the matters. It's also why we only see "in part" and as through a glass, DARKLY.

Does any of this mean a believer won't be saved? No. But that is not the whole equation of what a believer is.

AND, if we get overcome by this spiritual adversity/adversary, which we are also warned of in the scriptures, we will suffer loss, post salvation. We'll also reap further slaveship, the consequences thereof in the now, including Spiritual blindness in this present life.

But yeah, you do express a common form of denial. We all can read that the flesh is against the spirit, but we don't understand that evil is present therein, INTERNALLY. Instead we lie to ourselves, thinking that the Holy Spirit doesn't abide with sinners. Nothing could be further from the truth. Everyone is a sinner, believers are sinners, sin IS darkness. If the criteria for the Holy Spirit to dwell in us was sinlessness on our part, there'd be no salvation.

 

[smaller]

We are pretty much on the same thoughts about sin. I do not deny any of the sin issues, but I do see the solution/ solutions too.

Eternal hell is just as much of a solution for us as eternal security is. Why? Because our spiritual adversaries are "taken away" from our flesh and sent to the flames of hell. Matt 25 speaks directly of this matter. So do many other scriptures.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jesus had not been crucified at that point therefore the Church was not established yet.

Jesus said this while he was still alive on earth...
15“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16“But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. 17“If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church..." (Matthew 18:15-17 NASB bold mine)

 

[th1b.taylor]

Honestly Bill I don't know how anyone could conclude, after reading Paul's analysis of himself in Romans 7:17-21 that evil was not present with him or that sin did not dwell in his flesh, thereby "making" him a sinner, period. And this, by extension, is to all. Romans 3:9.

I feel that you are stuck there because you are not reconciling the scriptures with the whole of scripture. The one rule I labor with is that rule of Hermeneutics that says, No scripture, collection of scriptures, nor any passage of scripture can ever be fully understood without the light of all scripture shining upon it/them.

 

[dirtfarmer]

If they do not walk according to the flesh.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1



If we apply your method of interpretation to these two verse's, here is what it looks like.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

2




JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 " What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."
As you have lined out " The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable".

 

[dirtfarmer]

Jesus said this while he was still alive on earth...
15“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16“But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. 17“If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church..." (Matthew 18:15-17 NASB bold mine)

Hello Jethro Bodine, dirtfarmer here

Yes, that is what Jesus said while he was still alive, and the body of Christ(the Church) had not yet been established. Ekklesia means a called out assembly. The assembly at that time probably was in a synagogue which at that time could have been a town hall meeting or for the purpose of studying Judaism.
Deuteronomy 17:6 " At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death."
Deuteronomy 19:15 " One witness shall not rise up against any man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established."

 

[smaller]

I feel that you are stuck there

You may call it stuck. I call it recognizing the obvious.

because you are not reconciling the scriptures with the whole of scripture. The one rule I labor with is that rule of Hermeneutics that says, No scripture, collection of scriptures, nor any passage of scripture can ever be fully understood without the light of all scripture shining upon it/them.

I accept every Word of God as personally applicable to all believers, including myself. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4 is the written RULE on this matter.

Where we run into problems is in "selective engagements" with scriptures. They can actually deceive us, because we read them with "deception" in the form of "evil present" with us.

So for a freewiller, they will be led headlong into seeing only freewill. With a determinist, they will see only determinism. The reality of the scriptures for both sights is there, but neither sight is entirely true because no reader has Perfect Sight to start with. What DOES happen though, is our own hearts are reflected. Heb. 4:12. And our own imperfections will be revealed, openly.

Hebrews 4:13
Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Paul exposed to us, his own IMPERFECTIONS. This is the basis of salvation by faith in Christ, through His Grace and Mercy.

Anyone who thinks they can make themselves Perfect enough to be acceptable to God, is in fact quite deceived. It's not going to happen.

So all these believers seeking to cast aside believers to the pits of hell, for any reason, really should examine their motives. IF they are honest, they will see the facts of their own imperfections. But when they don't, they are AMPLIFIED in them to the point of denial, double dealing their sins compared to the sins of other believers. And they themselves get hardened, into being hell mongers, rather than loving one another. This is a common form of wickedness in the churches.

 

[th1b.taylor]

You may call it stuck. I call it recognizing the obvious.



I accept every Word of God as personally applicable to all believers, including myself. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4 is the written RULE on this matter.

Where we run into problems is in "selective engagements" with scriptures. They can actually deceive us, because we read them with "deception" in the form of "evil present" with us.

So for a freewiller, they will be led headlong into seeing only freewill. With a determinist, they will see only determinism. The reality of the scriptures for both sights is there, but neither sight is entirely true because no reader has Perfect Sight to start with. What DOES happen though, is our own hearts are reflected. Heb. 4:12. And our own imperfections will be revealed, openly.

Hebrews 4:13
Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Paul exposed to us, his own IMPERFECTIONS. This is the basis of salvation by faith in Christ, through His Grace and Mercy.

Anyone who thinks they can make themselves Perfect enough to be acceptable to God, is in fact quite deceived. It's not going to happen.

So all these believers seeking to cast aside believers to the pits of hell, for any reason, really should examine their motives. IF they are honest, they will see the facts of their own imperfections. But when they don't, they are AMPLIFIED in them to the point of denial, double dealing their sins compared to the sins of other believers. And they themselves get hardened, into being hell mongers, rather than loving one another. This is a common form of wickedness in the churches.

I am sorry but your post has not much to do with what I posted.