Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

[Jethro Bodine]

I haven't redefined anything. So I can't answer your question.

I said this:
"And He was also "plainly" talking about worms and dismemberment and self-mutilation as well."

What a strange question. They aren't "the eternal life Christ gives to the believer". So again, I can't answer your question.


They certainly DON'T represent that. Because eternal life is a gift of God, and the gifts of God are irrevocable, even though some or many don't believe those 2 verses in Romans.



Since eternal life is a gift of God, and the gifts of God are irrevocable, I have nothing more to prove.

Edited

It's impossible to redefine "eternal hell', and "fiery hell" in Matthew 18:8-9 NASB as not being the place where the damned go to be tormented by fire. The description of the 'fiery hell' that Jesus said believers can stumble and be cast into is the same fire John describes where those who take the mark of the beast are cast:

8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:8-9 NASB bold mine)

"42“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea. 43“If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44[where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 45“If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell,46[where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 47“If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,48where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED." (Mark 9:42-48 NASB capitals and [ ] in original, bold mine)

“If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11“And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” 12Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus." (Revelation 14:9-12 NASB bold mine)

Jesus is in fact saying that real believers can stumble so as to be cast into the fiery place of the damned. But OSAS insists that is impossible. It's impossible to redefine "eternal" "fiery hell" to mean something other than the place of the damned.

Matthew 18:6-9 NASB is the kill shot for OSAS.

 

[dirtfarmer]

It's impossible to redefine "eternal hell', and "fiery hell" in Matthew 18:8-9 NASB as not being the place where the damned go to be tormented by fire. The description of the 'fiery hell' that Jesus said believers can stumble and be cast into is the same fire John describes where those who take the mark of the beast are cast:

8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:8-9 NASB bold mine)

"42“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea. 43“If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44[where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 45“If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell,46[where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 47“If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,48where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED." (Mark 9:42-48 NASB capitals and [ ] in original, bold mine)

“If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11“And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” 12Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus." (Revelation 14:9-12 NASB bold mine)

Jesus is in fact saying that real believers can stumble so as to be cast into the fiery place of the damned. But OSAS insists that is impossible. It's impossible to redefine "eternal" "fiery hell" to mean something other than the place of the damned.

Matthew 18:6-9 NASB is the kill shot for OSAS.

hello Jethro Bodine, dirtfarmer here

The "believers that stumble so as to be cast into the fiery place of the damned"; are they un-born again or are they still born again?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The "believers that stumble so as to be cast into the fiery place of the damned"; are they un-born again or are they still born again?

They lose the salvation/ eternal life God gave them.
If they were still believers they would not be going to the lake of fire. Forgiven sin doesn't send a person to the lake of fire. The stumbling they do is in regard to staying in Christ and the gospel:

"1...the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain (that is, if Christ is not risen from the dead to begin with - vs.14,17)." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

"This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:22-24 NASB)

"...God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:11-12 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Your assumption is that "SIN" causes a believer to stumble. Since we are all sinners beyond any dispute, that can not possibly be the cause of stumbling.

What I'm saying is UNBELIEF causes the (former) believer to be cast into the fiery hell.
For the believer--because he is a believer, trusting in the blood of Christ to cover his sin--his sin is not held to his account (Hebrews 7:25 NASB) that it should somehow condemn him.

Don't you find it a tad hard to potentially condemn believers to eternal torture for not making themselves sinless, when that option isn't even on the scriptural table to begin with?

I suppose if that was my argument I'd be both unscriptural and unreasonable. But as I'm pointing out that is not what I'm saying. UNBELIEF, in a departing of the gospel of forgiveness, is what condemns the now former believer to the flames of hell. Because they no longer have the ministry of Christ at work on their behalf through a faith in that ministry, their sin can't be forgiven by the blood of Christ (Hebrews 10:26 NASB).

Who would cause a believer to stumble than those who commit them to possible hell?

Then you believe that Jesus causes people to stumble.
Love warns people about hell. Fake, PC love that lacks the courage to speak the truth in love won't risk the potential offense of telling believers their subsequent unbelief will send them to hell. Their forgiven sin doesn't send them to hell. The failure of their faith and trust in Christ does.

 

[FreeGrace]

OK
Please re-familiarise yourselves of the new rules before posting.

The use of the second person pronoun is not against the rules but it is highly discouraged.

Forum rules:

the following must be followed when posting in the Apologetics & Theology Forum.

1. Above all, focus on the issue being debated. Do not direct your comments toward the member and make the discussion personal if you disagree with what's been said.
2. Original posts should reference specific scripture and what it is the member wants to say or ask about that scripture.
3. Do not make the unsupported claim that another member's position has no basis in scripture. If you believe that someone is in error you must respectfully cite scripture to support your assertion.
4. Do not use phrases such as, “You’re wrong.” or any other similar phrase. This is insulting and inappropriate and there are nicer ways to disagree without being insulting.
5. Do not insinuate that another member is joking or being laughable unless they specifically state that they are. Assume they have interpreted scripture in an honest attempt to understand the Word of the Lord.
6. Once you have made a point, refrain from flooding the forum with numerous postsmaking the same point over and over withnothing new to support it.
7. You may ask a member questions as to what they believe on certain topics relative to the subject of the thread, but keep in mind the member is under no obligation to answer. Do not speak for other members by declaring what they believe or make leaps and draw your own conclusions. Let them state their own theology or doctrine. Assume other members have understood what they are responding to unless they state otherwise.
8. Failing to answer someone’s question doesn’t necessarily amount to an admission of error or surrender but keep in mind that in any debate if you refuse to or can not answer a reasonable question, it may weaken your position and do not badger other members about not answering attempting to guilt them into it.
9. Violations of these A&T forum rules are subject to the same disciplinary consequences as failing to adhere to theToS.

#3 seems contradictory. If another's position isn't stated in Scripture, it is their claim that is unsupported; for example: all dogs go to heaven. In spite of a movie by that title, the Bible makes no such statement. So, if a poster makes such a claim, to claim that Scripture doesn't say that isn't unsupported. It's a fact because there are no verses that address it.

But then it says if a poster believes another poster is in error we must "cite Scripture to support your assertion". The assertion would be that another poster's position has no basis in Scripture. But the first part of #3 forbids making "unsupported claims" that the other poster's position has no basis in Scripture.

So, when a poster makes a claim that cannot be found in Scripture, is it a violation to ask that person for Scripture to support their claim?

Concerning #6, once both sides of a debate have been laid out, every post after that violates #6, since there is nothing new to add.

 

[FreeGrace]

You mentioned the word condemned.

So does Paul.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

So does Jesus -

15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:15-16

Do you believe what Jesus said?

...he who does not believe will be condemned.

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believer, are no longer believers, because they no longer believe.

These will be condemned.JLB

Forum rules:

the following must be followed when posting in the Apologetics & Theology Forum.

1. Above all, focus on the issue being debated. Do not direct your comments toward the member and make the discussion personal if you disagree with what's been said.
2. Original posts should reference specific scripture and what it is the member wants to say or ask about that scripture.
3. Do not make the unsupported claim that another member's position has no basis in scripture. If you believe that someone is in error you must respectfully cite scripture to support your assertion.
4. Do not use phrases such as, “You’re wrong.” or any other similar phrase. This is insulting and inappropriate and there are nicer ways to disagree without being insulting.
5. Do not insinuate that another member is joking or being laughable unless they specifically state that they are. Assume they have interpreted scripture in an honest attempt to understand the Word of the Lord.
6. Once you have made a point, refrain from flooding the forum with numerous postsmaking the same point over and over with nothing new to support it.
7. You may ask a member questions as to what they believe on certain topics relative to the subject of the thread, but keep in mind the member is under no obligation to answer. Do not speak for other members by declaring what they believe or make leaps and draw your own conclusions. Let them state their own theology or doctrine. Assume other members have understood what they are responding to unless they state otherwise.
8. Failing to answer someone’s question doesn’t necessarily amount to an admission of error or surrender but keep in mind that in any debate if you refuse to or can not answer a reasonable question, it may weaken your position and do not badger other members about not answering attempting to guilt them into it.
9. Violations of these A&T forum rules are subject to the same disciplinary consequences as failing to adhere to theToS.

Note #6

 

[FreeGrace]

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24

All three of the points are His promise to those who believe.

When does one have eternal life? WHEN one believes. For that reason alone, Jesus promises that they WILL NOT come into judgment, but HAVE PASSED from (spiritual) death to (eternal) life.

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believer, are no longer believers, because they no longer believe.

Your position has repeatedly failed to support your unsubstantiated claims from Scripture.

You keep trying to convince the good people of this Forum, that those who don't believe anymore are still somehow afforded the promise given to those who believe.

The Bible teaches that eternal life is a gift of God in Rom 6:23.
The Bible teaches that the gifts of God are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.
Therefore, eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable.

Nonsense!

I don't believe that the Bible is nonsense.

 

[FreeGrace]

Matthew 18:6-9 NASB is the kill shot for OSAS.

The killshot is for eternal insecurity.

The Bible teaches that eternal life is a gift of God in Rom 6:23.
The Bible teaches that the gifts of God are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.
Therefore, eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable.

You've provided zero verses that tell us that eternal life can be removed, taken away, revoked, lost, forfeited, or any other word to indicate that one who HAS it can end up in hell.

Until one can find a verse that actually plainly says that eternal life can be lost/etc, your view is unsupported from Scripture.

At least Wondering admitted that her doctrines come from assumptions rather than what verses say.

None of the verses oft quoted by those of the eternal insecurity view plainly say what the position claims.

 

[FreeGrace]

dirtfarmer said: ↑
The "believers that stumble so as to be cast into the fiery place of the damned"; are they un-born again or are they still born again?

They lose the salvation/ eternal life God gave them.
If they were still believers they would not be going to the lake of fire.

He asked a great question. So, one who ceases to believe, like the second soil that Jesus noted, gets un-born again? Please help me understand your position. Is one who ceases to believe still born again by the Holy Spirit, or does the Holy Spirit stuff him/her back into the womb?

 

[JLB]

When does one have eternal life? WHEN one believes. For that reason alone, Jesus promises that they WILL NOT come into judgment, but HAVE PASSED from (spiritual) death to (eternal) life.

Forum rules:

6. Once you have made a point, refrain from flooding the forum with numerous postsmaking the same point over and over with nothing new to support it.

 

[JLB]

dirtfarmer said: ↑
The "believers that stumble so as to be cast into the fiery place of the damned"; are they un-born again or are they still born again?

He asked a great question. So, one who ceases to believe, like the second soil that Jesus noted, gets un-born again? Please help me understand your position. Is one who ceases to believe still born again by the Holy Spirit, or does the Holy Spirit stuff him/her back into the womb?

It's good that you admit the person in group number 2 was born again.

Is a person who believes for a while, then no longer believes, still a believer?

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

What ever they have received because they believed, they no longer have because they no longer believe.

Only those who believe are promised eternal life.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Please help me understand your position. Is one who ceases to believe still born again by the Holy Spirit, or does the Holy Spirit stuff him/her back into the womb?

Perhaps if you show us in the Bible this womb that believers are born from you'd have a point.
But as it is, being born again is simply having Christ's eternal life via the Holy Spirit. It's just as simple to take away the Holy Spirit from a human body as it was putting him in there. That's not hard to understand.

Oh, and in anticipation of your demand for a scripture that shows people being 'unborn' and cast away from the presence of God...
"...if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city" (Revelation 22: NASB bold and underline mine)

And in anticipation of you insisting there is Christ's eternal life outside of the city...
"14Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying." (Revelation 22:14-15 NASB bold mine)

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7“He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”" (Revelation 21:6-8 NASB bold mine)

Outside of the city is the second death, the eternal lake of fire, not Christ's eternal life. God does indeed take away a person's part in the city and sends them instead outside the city away from his eternal life.

 

[JLB]

The Bible teaches that the gifts of God are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.
Therefore, eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable.

Romans 11;29 says the gifts and calling [together] are irrevocable.

The Bible teaches that eternal life is a gift of God in Rom 6:23.

The bible does not say this. This is half of a verse and context, and is what Freegrace says.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23


JLB

 

[JLB]

Your position has repeatedly failed to support your unsubstantiated claims from Scripture.

Actually it's the nail in the coffin for OSAS.

You are the one claiming a person who believes for a while, is still somehow a believer.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Did these in group 2 bear any fruit?


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm left to wonder what "fall away" means.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord"
. Romans 6:23

The gift of God IS eternal life
But this gift is given IN CHRIST.

As long as we are IN Christ, we are saved
When we fall away and are no longer In Christ, of our own free will, then we become lost.


Wondering

 

[FreeGrace]

Forum rules:

6. Once you have made a point, refrain from flooding the forum with numerous postsmaking the same point over and over with nothing new to support it.

The rules apply to all of us.

 

[FreeGrace]

It's good that you admit the person in group number 2 was born again.

Of course they were. Jesus said they believed. And He used the present tense for 'believe'. But they only believed "for a while".

Is a person who believes for a while, then no longer believes, still a believer?

No, he's an apostate, or as the Bible says, "has fallen away". But the better question is this: is he still born again?

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

What ever they have received because they believed, they no longer have because they no longer believe.

Really? Then how come the verse DOESN'T SAY THAT?

Where does the Bible tell us that God removes eternal life when one ceases to believe?

Only those who believe are promised eternal life.
JLB

And...the Bible teaches that eternal life is a gift of God in Rom 6:23.
And...the Bible teaches that the gifts of God are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

Therefore, eternal life, being a gift of God, is irrevocable.

Eternal security is that clear.

 

[JLB]

I'm left to wonder what "fall away" means.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord"
. Romans 6:23

The gift of God IS eternal life
But this gift is given IN CHRIST.

As long as we are IN Christ, we are saved
When we fall away and are no longer In Christ, of our own free will, then we become lost.


Wondering

Your correct.

In the original language fall away from Luke 8:13 is:


fall away - Strong's G868 - aphistēmi

1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
   
   1. to excite to revolt
      
2. to stand off, to stand aloof
   
   1. to go away, to depart from anyone
   2. to desert, withdraw from one
   3. to fall away, become faithless
   4. to shun, flee from
   5. to cease to vex one
   6. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
   7. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from
      

The context of Luke 8:13 is someone who willing turn's away [becomes faithless] from Christ under persecution.

Jesus warned of persecution from the unbelieving Jews, to them back to Judaism, and renounce Jesus as a false messiah.

This word is used in Hebrews to describe this very condition, warning the Hebrew Christians not to depart from Him, or else they would have no way to be forgiven sins any longer, and would put Christ to an open shame.

All of Hebrews is a legal argument that Christ is the God who created the heavens and the earth as well as the High Priest of the new Covenant, ie: the very Son of God, and not some false messiah that the unbelieving Jews claim.


Fall away = depart from - become faithless [in Christ]

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

"Departing from" here in this verse, is the same word Jesus used in Luke 8:13 as fall away.

• The context of Hebrews Chapter 3 set's the foundational context for what is taught to us in Hebrews 6 and 10.

4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. Hebrews 3:4-6


I have more about the condition that is placed on our salvation from these chapters, of which holding fast or keeping the faith producing word to the end is the key. [see the fourth group from Luke 8, that produced fruit]

We can discuss this in the next post as this one is getting too long.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Jesus said they believed.

Did they endure to the end?


JLB

 

[dirtfarmer]

They lose the salvation/ eternal life God gave them.
If they were still believers they would not be going to the lake of fire. Forgiven sin doesn't send a person to the lake of fire. The stumbling they do is in regard to staying in Christ and the gospel:

"1...the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain (that is, if Christ is not risen from the dead to begin with - vs.14,17)." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

"This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:22-24 NASB)

"...God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:11-12 NASB)