Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

[Jethro Bodine]

Speaking of kill shots, since the Bible teaches that eternal life is a gift of God and the gifts of God are irrevocable, the fact is that eternal life is irrevocable.

Which proves that salvation cannot be lost.

Problem:
To interpret Romans 11:29 to mean 'once you believe you can never lose your eternal life/salvation' is to make
Matthew 18:6-9 / Mark 9:42-48 NASB false. But to see the plain OSAS in Matthew 18:6-9 / Mark 9:42-48 NASB does not make Romans 11:29 false.

Why? Because Paul does not say 'once you believe you can never lose your eternal life' in that passage. That's an interpretation that you have added. But Matthew 18:6-9 / Mark 9:42-48 NASB plainly says what it says: believers can stumble so as to go to the fiery hell of damnation. That's not an interpretation added by me. That's what it says.

Matthew 18:6-9 / Mark 9:42-48 NASB is the kill shot for OSAS. You cant' get around it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"4for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses. 5We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God..." 2 Corinthians 10:4-5 NASB

OSAS, you're done! OSAS can not stand in the counsel of the plain words of scripture.

 

[FreeGrace]

I don't think any one would argue that God lies, or simply doesn't always mean what He says, or that He is illogical.

So, let's consider logic.

If A = B, and if B = C, then A = C. No argument. It's a settled matter.

Now, let's apply this very simple logic to Scripture, to see what's a settled matter.

Rom 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And, for those who seem to want to argue otherwise, none of the black colored words changes the FACT of the red colored words. Eternal life is a gift of God. The Bible plainly states this.

Rom 11:29 - for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

And, for those who seem to want to argue otherwise, none of the black colored words changes the FACT of the red colored words. God's gifts are irrevocable. The Bible plainly states this.

Now for the simple logic:

If eternal life (A) is a gift of God (B), and if God's gifts (B) are irrevocable (C),
then eternal life (A) is irrevocable (C).

Since the Bible says that eternal life is a gift of God, and since the Bible says that God's gifts are irrevocable, we are assured that eternal life is irrevocable.

It's a settled matter.

So, those who reject this logic must demonstrate that the logic is flawed. That eternal life is not a gift of God, or that God's gifts are not irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace]

Of course a person was saved when they believed somewhere in the past.
You can't choose to ignore the present tense that says you have to still be doing that believing today to be saved today:

"you (presently) are saved, if you (presently) hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB parenthesis mine)

The aorist tense in other passages doesn't negate the present tense truth in this and other passages. It's absurd to argue it does. Absolutely absurd.

Refer to post #803.

 

[GodsGrace]

And I believe that you're mistaken. I never said that. When I mention anything Greek, it's because I have Greek study tools that inform my understanding of the various tenses, moods, and voice.

Sure. Happy to.

From John 3:16 - πιστεύω pisteuō

1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
1a) of the thing believed
1a1) to credit, have confidence
1b) in a moral or religious reference
1b1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
1b2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
2a) to be intrusted with a thing

Indeed to BELIEVE means all of the above. We could clarify that it means TO FOLLOW the person in whom you believe. If you are PERSUADED of something, youi FOLLOW that ideal.

So, if you BELIEVE in Jesus you will be saved and have eternal life.
If you DON'T BELIEVE in Jesus you will NOT be saved and have eternal life.

The UNBELIEVING can occur at any time in your life. I posted many verses that say you must endure till the end. We're becoming repetitive.

Believe = Saved
Unbelief = Not Saved

Mark 16:16
16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12
12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12
12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14
14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31
They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15
15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5
5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Yes, the word IS very important.

The Word is very important FreeGrace. But apparently only the Word that YOU choose to believe.
The above verses which I quoted are NOT important? Because you cannot reconcile them with your belief, perhaps?

I don't have any idea what it means in your theology.
No. I have no idea what you're talking about.
Please try again. I don't see any connection.

Here I was referring to "turning down" the Holy Spirit. Or "denying" the Holy Spirit. Or "rejecting" the Holy Spirit.
Any one of these words means that you do NOT DESIRE to have the Holy Spirit in you life.
I'm sorry you didn't understand the term "turned down" as referred to being turned down by a girl. I thought this would make the term clear to you since you did not originally understand it. You know, when you're turned down, it means she wants no part of you. This "turning down" the Holy Spirit would mean exactly the same thing.

I highlighted 2 Thessalonians 2:13 up above because I'd like to comment on it.

"because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth."

We spoke about Sanctification a few pages back. I explained, and I'm sure you know, that Sanctification is an ONGOING process that lasts your whole life.

So, If God has chosen, from the beginning, SALVATION through SANCTIFICATION by the Spirit and FAITH IN THE TRUTH...

It means that the ongoing process of Sanctification must be in effect, and faith in the Truth (Jesus) must be in effect to be saved. It must be in effect always till we die.

This is very simple to understand.

And, BTW, you've been scolding me for having used the word "assume" in a post.
I'm posting here what the word "Assume" means, just for clarification:

Definitions for assume:
take for granted(verb)
take to be the case or to be true
accept without verification or proof

Wondering

 

[JLB]

Now for the simple logic:

If eternal life (A) is a gift of God (B), and if God's gifts (B) are irrevocable (C),
then eternal life (A) is irrevocable (C).

• For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29
• For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

By leaving out words and context in the two verse's you are splicing together, you can make the bible say anything.

The calling remains to those who were cut off because of unbelief. God's desires to graft them back in, so the calling is still available as well as the gifts through which the call comes.

Paul explains this a few verse's later in Romans 12:

3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness. Romans 12:3-7


It is through these gifts that the call to repentance remains extended to those Jews in unbelief, that they would repent and obey the Gospel.


The gifts and calling are irrevocable [which the original doesn't mean what the modern definition means] together.

The passage doesn't say all the gifts are irrevocable, but the gifts and the calling to repentance are irrevocable.

If someone needs to be called to repentance then they do not have salvation, but are "called" because they are in unbelief.



JLB

 

[smaller]

Having spent an inordinate amount of time in the course of 3 plus decades of scriptural studies of these matters from every camp and every angle conceivable in order to find a REMEDY between the camps, and for myself, I eventually was led to the conclusion that both sides of the debate are not encompassing.

For example, there are those who claim that it is christian "lifestyle" that saves. But when that claim is held up to scriptural scrutiny, we won't find any christian as a non-sinner in any case of lifestyle. Whatever lifestyle we live after salvation remains as it did with Paul's "lifestyle."

Romans 7:
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

There is the "lifestyle" of not only Paul, but every believer and also every person who has ever lived, with the exception of Christ, God Himself in the flesh. Whatever we do, whatever "lifestyle" we live, we live that life as sinners, with evil present with us. None of us are sinless. So, there is the first deception. Thinking one's self as sinless. That mindset proves that the person who thinks this is so by "lifestyle" is in fact quite deceived, plain and simple.

I personally found the christian "lifestyle" means salvation claims to be false claims. As for lifestyle, I found my 'lifestyle' to be much more pleasant when my life did not have to be lived in dishonesty about being a sinner, with evil present with me. It kept me out of the seat of hypocrisy and lies. Which is a Divine pleasure granted to the "honest" in heart. Salvation is appreciated significantly MORE with honesty about our current state of affairs. You come to understand the living meaning of "unmerited" Grace and the ever present need of Gods Mercy in Christ, which are of far more value.

What do we see with Paul's lifestyle? Quite obviously EVIL PRESENT with Paul did assuredly raise it's ugly head. And Paul says this is so, in many citings:

Romans 7:
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Romans 7:
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Romans 7:
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Does that sound even remotely close to a sinless lifestyle? I'd say these facts lead to an exactly OPPOSITE conclusion.

So the "lifestyle" gauntlet needs to run itself through Paul's facts above, for comparisons to scriptural reality of an Apostle. When anyone claims their own "lifestyle" is NOT in accordance with Paul's own lifestyle, all such claims of sinlessness are in fact proven false and baseless. We are in fact sinners, saved through faith in Christ, by His Grace and Mercy upon us.

There is no other truthful conclusion available. Paul kicks the legs out from under any salvation by "lifestyle" claims and any sinless conclusions and leaves us ONLY with salvation by Christs Grace and Mercy. Period. I consider this to be an honest conclusion. The only honest conclusion. A quite refreshing one at that.

 

[smaller]

Once any believer sees that claims of sinlessness at any point in time are in fact blatant lies, some eventually turn to seeing WHY we can't make ourselves sinless. This is where it gets much more interesting.

The N.T. DISCOVERY and DISCLOSURE that Jesus made, and that Paul makes, and that the other Apostles make, is that evil present with us is in fact quite a secure matter of INTERNAL reality. A conclusion that a dishonest person can not make, because of evil present with them.

Here Jesus shows us all the "internal facts" of evil present with us:

Matthew 15:
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

The above is NOT an option. Paul himself, in Romans 7:7-13 shows us that it is by the LAW, that sin RESISTS Gods Laws through the avenue of EVIL THOUGHTS. This is not an option. Indwelling sin, which Paul described as "NO MORE I" twice in Romans 7:17 & 20 does react adversely with EVIL THOUGHTS which defile us. My conclusions from this, having observed christians all my life openly deny they have "evil defiling thoughts" and claiming these are not the actions of sin in the flesh, defiling us, led me to the simple conclusion that EVIL PRESENT is quite dishonest. Evil present with us always makes LIES and COVERUPS and EXCUSES.

Jesus didn't leave us an option to dodge the below:

Mark 7:
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Do you see a maybe in the above? Do you see that it only MIGHT happen? I'd suggest a closer read. Jesus said these things come from within. It's NOT presented as "optional."

This basis alone wipes out every claim of 'works' for salvation.

We should all understand that "evil present" and "sin dwelling in our flesh" with us will NOT be saved and CAN NOT be justified, period. These quite solid and secure scriptural facts leave us with not even a little bit of self righteousness. It leaves us with NONE of our own righteousness, just as Paul stated here:

Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

 

[smaller]

Being a "disciple" of Christ entails understanding some HARD THINGS about ourselves. Believers who don't care to hear the HARD THINGS are going to "leave" Christ, and cling to their own self righteousness.

Jesus taught us that in order to even BE a disciple of His, we are to HATE our own life. This is not "commonly" taught in the churches. We are all falsely taught that Jesus only LOVES us. This is not true. Jesus does HATE the evil present with us. Jesus does HATE the sin dwelling in our flesh. And we are to HATE these workings also.

This DIVINE HATRED is meant to STRIP us of having ANY of our own "self righteousness" because it is not possible to have ANY.

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

John 12:25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

So, for anyone who "claims" to be Jesus' disciple, I might ask, SHOW ME HOW AND WHY YOU HATE YOUR OWN LIFE?

I believe this IS the question that Jesus asks "every" disciple. If you have not heard Him, you haven't asked yourself the HARD QUESTIONS. Those who are under the control of evil present with them, of sin indwelling their own flesh, can not ask these hard questions. They are BLINDED by that other working in their own flesh. I will be generous and say they are still saved. But they are not in "Jesus' discipleship" to the extent they should be. Will they "get there?" Maybe, maybe not.

There is in fact another working altogether that Jesus does FIRST, to bring His discipleship to HIS HEADSHIP.

Romans 9:18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

I am fully convinced that those who are hardened, are hardened AGAINST His Mercy.

And this hardening is open and apparent in all works for salvation camps and in all camps where they claim believers will not be saved BY HIS MERCY. They actually all OPPOSE salvation by faith in Christ through the Grace and Mercy of Christ. And some vehemently so.

And this is the HARDENING of God upon them, against HIS MERCY.

This HARDENING comes upon the evil present with us, and the sin dwelling in our flesh, which leads to denial of Gods Mercy in Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The point of the aorist is that it gives NO REGARD for duration of time.

Therefore, those who believe in a point in time, without regard for duration of that belief, are saved.

That is not in contention. A person is saved the very moment they believe.
The present tense says you have to continue to believe to continue to have the salvation you got when you first believed.

"you are (presently) saved, if you (presently) hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB parenthesis and bold mine)

You do not need to belabor the point that a person is saved when they first believed. That's not in contention. What is in contention is you must be presently believing in order to still be saved. Remember, I have the plain words of scripture on my side. Your doctrine is the one that has to deny, redefine, etc. those present tense passages to make them go away.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So, those who reject this logic must demonstrate that the logic is flawed. That eternal life is not a gift of God, or that God's gifts are not irrevocable.

Your equation leaves out the context of the Romans 11:29 NASB passage.
The gifts and calling of God will never be taken away from Israel. Later generations will one day walk in those gifts again. He isn't saying people who believe and then stop believing are still saved/ have eternal life. You need to factor in context into your equation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Please refute the logic of post #803 if possible.

You left 'context' out of your Romans 11:29 NASB equation.
You're not considering all the factors.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

By leaving out words and context in the two verse's you are splicing together, you can make the bible say anything.

Amen.

 

[LovethroughDove]

I almost find it as blaspheming the Holy Spirit to say that he won't keep you from falling away (if you have been truly born again) 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

Jude 24-25 To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy - to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

What is the Holy Spirit for, if not to guide you unto holiness?

Jesus showed up in flesh for this very reason:
Hebrews 4:15-16 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are - yet without sin. Let us approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

Maybe this isn't even the correct thread to be posting in? There is a lot of going back and forth, without the title being discussed. (true Christian) and losing salvation. Maybe we should discuss true Christian and believer first?

True Christian has Christ in them, believer is on the path somewhere (maybe has been given the Holy Spirit, maybe is testing the waters)
You can believe in parts of Jesus (the word) and not really him.

Paul wrote warnings about his flesh acting against the Spirit. The Holy Spirit will not have you ignore these warnings, cause he wants you to remain holy. Does that mean we're perfect? No, but we are heading towards that holiness and not the other way.

 

[smaller]

I almost find it as blaspheming the Holy Spirit to say that he won't keep you from falling away (if you have been truly born again) 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

I'd see similarly, but moreso. It is blasphemy. If Christ Himself is NOT capable of saving us, then WHO IS and then why bother? I'm certainly not capable of saving myself, that much is a certain fact. Anyone who tells me they, by their own actions, save themselves, I can only shake my head and wonder how they got to that point. I'm far more interested in 'ditching' myself. And if Christ can speed that process up, I'm all for it. I want to be found "in Him."

Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

God gave me just a little taste of His Love, many long years ago, in the solace of my bedroom, literally IN MY HEART, after I read the Gospel of John. It was a real internal taste, a touch if you prefer. And that was all it took to TURN ME. And yes, it did turn my own world upside down.

Left to my own devices, this would have never happened. When any of us see Jesus, no matter how small that sight, no matter how seemingly insignificantly, we respond/react to His Call, it is HE WHO IS FAITHFUL to complete His Working. I never had that in my own power to start with and I certainly didn't have it afterwards. Nor did I expect that was the case, until others tried to teach me otherwise. In the end I couldn't bear the "multiple mini saviors" of themselves. They all supplicate at their own altars of 'satisfactory performances.'

I much prefer His Performances to my own.

This was the "faith" of the father of faith, Abraham:

Romans 4:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

And this was Abraham's sight of himself, by comparison:

Genesis 18:27
And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

Any reasoning I do with God in Christ, I do from that sight that Abraham had for himself. Because it's THE TRUTH. Were we to "find" Abraham's body today, what would we find, but dust and ashes? This is the seat of Abraham's reasoning. Abraham left that behind him, I think, quite thankfully so, knowing that what God in Christ Promised, He WAS ABLE to Perform. And this, Abraham speaks to us, from the grave.

 

[GodsGrace]

I almost find it as blaspheming the Holy Spirit to say that he won't keep you from falling away (if you have been truly born again) 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

Jude 24-25 To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy - to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

What is the Holy Spirit for, if not to guide you unto holiness?

Jesus showed up in flesh for this very reason:
Hebrews 4:15-16 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are - yet without sin. Let us approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

Maybe this isn't even the correct thread to be posting in? There is a lot of going back and forth, without the title being discussed. (true Christian) and losing salvation. Maybe we should discuss true Christian and believer first?

True Christian has Christ in them, believer is on the path somewhere (maybe has been given the Holy Spirit, maybe is testing the waters)
You can believe in parts of Jesus (the word) and not really him.

Paul wrote warnings about his flesh acting against the Spirit. The Holy Spirit will not have you ignore these warnings, cause he wants you to remain holy. Does that mean we're perfect? No, but we are heading towards that holiness and not the other way.

Hi LTD,
If the Holy Spirit is able to keep us, then why did Paul and Jesus both say to hold firm till the end?

In posts no. 769, 772 I explain why salvation cannot be permanent.

Also, if one cannot fall away, why does Paul exhort us NOT to fall away?
Please see my post no. 778 for scripture warning against this.

It's interesting that you picked the book of Jude to show how one cannot lose salvation.

Jude was specifically written to warn against the heresies of gnosticism and antinomianism; a heresy that believed that we are not under obligation to follow the moral Law.

Do you believe we are to follow the 10 commandments?

See Jude 1:4-5 which states that ungodly teachers were turning God's grace into licentiousness and that they denied our Lord and Master. A master is someone whom you follow, His teachings and His ways. Jesus taught a lifestyle that we are to follow. Please see Mathew 5.

St. Jude was written to show the readers (believers) that they were guilty of rebellion against authority, irreverence, presumptuous speech and a very liberal spirit, not in keeping with Jesus' teachings.

Jude rebukes these teachers who decieve new believers into wrong beliefs.


Wondering

 

[LovethroughDove]

Hi LTD,
If the Holy Spirit is able to keep us, then why did Paul and Jesus both say to hold firm till the end?

Because we are still in our flesh.

Also, if one cannot fall away, why does Paul exhort us NOT to fall away?

Again, we are still in our flesh. He is speaking to the flesh, so we look to the Holy Spirit.

 

[LovethroughDove]

I'm still answering you wondering, hold on.

 

[LovethroughDove]

It's interesting that you picked the book of Jude to show how one cannot lose salvation.

Jude was specifically written to warn against the heresies of gnosticism and antinomianism; a heresy that believed that we are not under obligation to follow the moral Law.

Do you believe we are to follow the 10 commandments?

See Jude 1:4-5 which states that ungodly teachers were turning God's grace into licentiousness and that they denied our Lord and Master. A master is someone whom you follow, His teachings and His ways. Jesus taught a lifestyle that we are to follow. Please see Mathew 5.

St. Jude was written to show the readers (believers) that they were guilty of rebellion against authority, irreverence, presumptuous speech and a very liberal spirit, not in keeping with Jesus' teachings.

Jude rebukes these teachers who decieve new believers into wrong beliefs.

The Holy Spirit will guide you. He will not have you dishonor your parents, etc,.... he will guide you through all situations and he does the 10 commandments and More......He is that holy.

Matthew 5:20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

The Holy Spirit uploaded "him who is able" into my mind......Jude popped up

 

[FreeGrace]

Indeed to BELIEVE means all of the above. We could clarify that it means TO FOLLOW the person in whom you believe.

No, to "believe" does NOT mean to follow. I gave the lexicon definition for the word. And "to follow" wasn't in it.

If you are PERSUADED of something, youi FOLLOW that ideal.

This is more assumption.

So, if you BELIEVE in Jesus you will be saved and have eternal life.
If you DON'T BELIEVE in Jesus you will NOT be saved and have eternal life.

Is there any verse that says that those who follow me will be saved?

The UNBELIEVING can occur at any time in your life. I posted many verses that say you must endure till the end.

The context for that statement is specific to the Tribulation, not to all of humanity.

We're becoming repetitive.

How true. It's all been said by now. But, if post #803 can be shown to be false, please proceed.

Believe = Saved
Unbelief = Not Saved

Yes, biblical principles.

The Word is very important FreeGrace. But apparently only the Word that YOU choose to believe.

Please show me which words in the Word that I have NOT chosen to believe. And be specific. I think your assumption is appalling.

The above verses which I quoted are NOT important?

This is my view on that from 2 Tim:
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Because you cannot reconcile them with your belief, perhaps?

I've explained and reconciled EVERY verse and passage that has been thrown at me.

Here I was referring to "turning down" the Holy Spirit. Or "denying" the Holy Spirit. Or "rejecting" the Holy Spirit.

Since none of these words or phrases is found in the Bible, please explain your point, as it relates to eternal security.

Any one of these words means that you do NOT DESIRE to have the Holy Spirit in you life.

What verse teaches that it "matters" whether you have the Holy Spirit in your life? Do you believe that you can wish Him out, breaking the seal?? Where does that idea come from? Certainly not Scripture. Oh, that's right. You're into assumptions.

I highlighted 2 Thessalonians 2:13 up above because I'd like to comment on it.

"because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth."

We spoke about Sanctification a few pages back. I explained, and I'm sure you know, that Sanctification is an ONGOING process that lasts your whole life.

Whereas salvation is immediate. btw, how many kinds of sanctification does the Bible speak of?

So, If God has chosen, from the beginning, SALVATION through SANCTIFICATION by the Spirit and FAITH IN THE TRUTH...

The word for 'sanctification' or 'sanctified' is translated as "set apart" in other translations and verses.

It means that the ongoing process of Sanctification must be in effect, and faith in the Truth (Jesus) must be in effect to be saved. It must be in effect always till we die.

So, if eternal security is not biblical, then it should be easy to prove that my logic in post #803 is flawed by proving that either:
1. eternal life is NOT a gift of God, or
2. God's gifts are NOT irrevocable.

This is very simple to understand.

The logic of eternal security is indeed very simple to understand. And impossible to refute.

And, BTW, you've been scolding me for having used the word "assume" in a post.

"Scolded"?? Really? Just pointing out what you have admitted. How is that scolding?

I'm posting here what the word "Assume" means, just for clarification:

Definitions for assume:
take for granted(verb)
take to be the case or to be true
accept without verification or proof

Wondering

Well, there it is. To "take for granted" and "accept without verification/proof is exactly the problem with your view. There is no proof. No evidence. Zero. Zilch.

I've given very simple yet solid logic to prove that the Bible teaches eternal security.

If post #803 can be refuted, please be my guest.

ps: I don't want to be wrong any more than you or anyone else on this thread does.

If my logic can be shown to be illogical, I'll admit it.