Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

[FreeGrace]

• For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29
• For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

By leaving out words and context in the two verse's you are splicing together, you can make the bible say anything.

The calling remains to those who were cut off because of unbelief. God's desires to graft them back in, so the calling is still available as well as the gifts through which the call comes.

Paul explains this a few verse's later in Romans 12:

3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness. Romans 12:3-7


It is through these gifts that the call to repentance remains extended to those Jews in unbelief, that they would repent and obey the Gospel.


The gifts and calling are irrevocable [which the original doesn't mean what the modern definition means] together.

The passage doesn't say all the gifts are irrevocable, but the gifts and the calling to repentance are irrevocable.

If someone needs to be called to repentance then they do not have salvation, but are "called" because they are in unbelief.JLB

None of this refuted the logic of post #803. So it still stands.

btw, considering this statement in your post:
"The passage doesn't say all the gifts are irrevocable, but the gifts and the calling to repentance are irrevocable."

Taking others to task for adding words to verses doesn't give the right to violate your own standards. Nowhere in Rom 11:29 do we find the words "to repentance".

btw, please define what these so-called "gifts to repentance" is. I've never heard of that. What does it mean?

 

[FreeGrace]

That is not in contention. A person is saved the very moment they believe.
The present tense says you have to continue to believe to continue to have the salvation you got when you first believed.

Making any kind of statement does not make that statement true. Jesus used the present tense for 'believe' in Luke 8:13 and then added the words "for a while", which plainly refutes your statement.

"you are (presently) saved, if you (presently) hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB parenthesis and bold mine)

Your added words don't make your statement true. And until the logic of post #803 has been refuted and shown to be illogical or false, there is no reason to accept any other view.

You do not need to belabor the point that a person is saved when they first believed. That's not in contention.

The contention is only about the claim that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved, like some king of light switch or something, that can be switched on and off. The Bible does NOT teach any such thing.

Those who are given the irrevocable gift of eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. This is a promise by Jesus Christ and I fully believe what He promised.

What is in contention is you must be presently believing in order to still be saved.

This statement is in direct contention with the Bible and the promises of Jesus Christ.

Remember, I have the plain words of scripture on my side.

No, I don't remember any such thing. I've seen assumption, etc. But NOT clear and plain Scripture that supports your claims.

Your doctrine is the one that has to deny, redefine, etc. those present tense passages to make them go away.

Please tell that to Jesus Christ. And Paul, who also used the aorist tense to indicate one's salvation.

I'm really baffled as to why the aorist tense doesn't seem to be relevant to your view, but only the present tense, which has been WAY over inflated.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Please refute the logic of post #803 if possible."

You left 'context' out of your Romans 11:29 NASB equation.
You're not considering all the factors.

If this is true, and relevant, then it should be rather easy to refute the logic of that post.

All that is needed to do that is to prove that either:
1. eternal life is NOT a gift of God, or
2. God's gifts are NOT irrevocable.

It's that simple.

Please proceed.

 

[FreeGrace]

JLB said: ↑
By leaving out words and context in the two verse's you are splicing together, you can make the bible say anything.

Amen.

The logic of post #803 is solid. Irrefutable. Or else it would have been refuted by now.

But all that has occurred is disagreement.

And he has never shown how the words in either verse that I don't quote change the FACT that eternal life is still a gift of God and that God's gifts are irrevocable.

So his claims are just empty claims.

 

[SHINY4UJESUS]

Nope, A "True," Christian cannot lose salvation and here is why: If that Christian is authentically "True," then the sincerity and direction of their faith is so sound that they cannot simply "deny," the commitment of their faith in Jesus as the author and perfecter of salvation. Every "True," Christian(when so tested,) has willingly chosen torturous death over denying Jesus; and many have had just that occur. However, one who is falsely perceived or self-deceived as being a "true," and unwaveringly sincere Christian; this is a different matter; for regardless of the appearance or accepted illusion, there is truth to the idea that a shaky faith/commitment leaves room to "waffle," on salvation. Even then, one must consider that if this is indeed the case; was the initial commitment to Christ even sincere? Was it in deception? Was there unbelief in what transpired through the finished work of Christ? Let us keep in mind the context when Jesus made the "unforgivable sin," statement. He was speaking towards the Pharisees and spiritual leaders of the time; confronting them for "attributing to Satan what is indeed of God." However, let's apply this in context given the scenario at the time. Their misappropriation of the source of power wasn't simply directed "towards the enemy," this was an illustration. These leaders were directly opposing Jesus, actively obstructing and waging war against Him. Jesus was making a point here that denial of Christ in and of itself is the unforgivable sin. If we deny any aspect of Jesus personage, lineage, divinity, purity, etc.; we thus deny and refuse salvation even if we are not aware of it. Finally, I would point out the parable of the workers in the vineyard; and how those starting work at the final hour received the same pay as those who worked from the very beginning. A person may be militantly opposed to Christ all his/her life; yet in their final heartbeat, if they turn to Him with complete sincerity...I assure you He will not fail to answer. Just some things to think about anyways; I cannot claim to be a biblical scholar by any means.

 

[Mike]

I cleaned up some content on the previous page. Please, no more posts simply referring to post 803.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, to "believe" does NOT mean to follow. I gave the lexicon definition for the word. And "to follow" wasn't in it.

This is more assumption.

Is there any verse that says that those who follow me will be saved?

The context for that statement is specific to the Tribulation, not to all of humanity.

How true. It's all been said by now. But, if post #803 can be shown to be false, please proceed.

Yes, biblical principles.

Please show me which words in the Word that I have NOT chosen to believe. And be specific. I think your assumption is appalling.

This is my view on that from 2 Tim:
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

I've explained and reconciled EVERY verse and passage that has been thrown at me.

Since none of these words or phrases is found in the Bible, please explain your point, as it relates to eternal security.

What verse teaches that it "matters" whether you have the Holy Spirit in your life? Do you believe that you can wish Him out, breaking the seal?? Where does that idea come from? Certainly not Scripture. Oh, that's right. You're into assumptions.

Whereas salvation is immediate. btw, how many kinds of sanctification does the Bible speak of?

The word for 'sanctification' or 'sanctified' is translated as "set apart" in other translations and verses.

So, if eternal security is not biblical, then it should be easy to prove that my logic in post #803 is flawed by proving that either:
1. eternal life is NOT a gift of God, or
2. God's gifts are NOT irrevocable.

The logic of eternal security is indeed very simple to understand. And impossible to refute.

"Scolded"?? Really? Just pointing out what you have admitted. How is that scolding?

Well, there it is. To "take for granted" and "accept without verification/proof is exactly the problem with your view. There is no proof. No evidence. Zero. Zilch.

I've given very simple yet solid logic to prove that the Bible teaches eternal security.

If post #803 can be refuted, please be my guest.

ps: I don't want to be wrong any more than you or anyone else on this thread does.

If my logic can be shown to be illogical, I'll admit it.

Right. Wrong.
How do you know who is right and who is wrong?

Do you know what the theologian told me, with whom I discussed that tense you love? The aorist tense.
After explaining to me how the aorist tense is of NO IMPORTANCE when translating the bible from Greek to English (or any other language), he said he wishes the writers of the N.T. had been more clear in what they said.
I've said this myself many times BTW.

So you checked the lexicon for the word "believe". That's nice. Go speak to someone who knows the Greek of the bible and ask them what "believe" means. If you believe in someone, you learn from and follow that person.

It seems that every church believes in loss of salvation except the Universalist church and the Reformed church.

Universalism can be proven from the bible too BTW. "For God wishes ALL MEN TO BE SAVED".

See FreeGrace. You cannot pluck verses out to prove points. Jesus came here for a reason. As long as we adhere to what JESUS taught, we are safe in His arms.

When we decide (if ever) to LEAVE His protecting arms, we are LOST once again. Jesus gives life to those who ABIDE in Him and who BELIEVE in Him.

I wish for you the joy of the Lord.


Wondering

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I almost find it as blaspheming the Holy Spirit to say that he won't keep you from falling away (if you have been truly born again) 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

Jude 24-25 To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy - to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

What is the Holy Spirit for, if not to guide you unto holiness?

Jesus showed up in flesh for this very reason:
Hebrews 4:15-16 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are - yet without sin. Let us approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

Maybe this isn't even the correct thread to be posting in? There is a lot of going back and forth, without the title being discussed. (true Christian) and losing salvation. Maybe we should discuss true Christian and believer first?

True Christian has Christ in them, believer is on the path somewhere (maybe has been given the Holy Spirit, maybe is testing the waters)
You can believe in parts of Jesus (the word) and not really him.

Paul wrote warnings about his flesh acting against the Spirit. The Holy Spirit will not have you ignore these warnings, cause he wants you to remain holy. Does that mean we're perfect? No, but we are heading towards that holiness and not the other way.

It's interesting that traditional OSAS people like yourself can not see the necessity to continue in faith to continue to be saved in their own argument. You are in agreement with non-OSAS--believers have to keep believing to the very end to be saved in the very end. Stop approaching the throne for mercy and grace because of unbelief/contempt for salvation and you will lose your salvation that going to the throne keeps for you.

 

[GodsGrace]

Because we are still in our flesh.

Again, we are still in our flesh. He is speaking to the flesh, so we look to the Holy Spirit.

Hi LTD
Of course we're in the flesh. Paul and Jesus were both speaking to people in the flesh. What does this mean? I don't understand how you mean this.

Do you mean that the Holy Spirit guides our flesh? Does this mean we never sin?


Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

The Holy Spirit will guide you. He will not have you dishonor your parents, etc,.... he will guide you through all situations and he does the 10 commandments and More......He is that holy.

Matthew 5:20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

The Holy Spirit uploaded "him who is able" into my mind......Jude popped up

So to you the Holy Spirit is like a guard. You say that He will not let you dishonor your parents. IOW, He stops you from sinning. Does this mean you have no free will once you accept the Holy Spirit? Does it mean that if I'm saved, I CANNOT dishonor my parents?

You say He will guide me through all situations, even more than the ones found in the 10 Commandments. Does this mean that if I break ONE commandment, I am not saved?

You quote Mathew 5:20. This is very interesting since persons who believe that once you are saved, you are saved forever, do NOT believe Mathew 5:20. It's the non-OSAS crowd who says that you must be righteous before God to be saved. In Mathew Jesus is saying that you DO have to follow all the Laws or you will not enter into the Kingdom of heaven.

If you believe the 10 Commandments should be followed to hold on to salvation, I'd say you're on the non-OSAS side. Please consider this well. The OSAS side says that once you are saved, you will REMAIN saved NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO for the rest of your life. They believe it's not even necessary to ask for forgiveness because it's an insult to Jesus.

I'm interested in your reply.


Wondering

 

[SHINY4UJESUS]

I would almost wager that a popular, age old book says something about striving to avoid meaningless squabbles over wording and such. Reminds me of a guy named Timothy. The 2nd. Eh, I'm probably in error.

 

[GodsGrace]

Nope, A "True," Christian cannot lose salvation and here is why: If that Christian is authentically "True," then the sincerity and direction of their faith is so sound that they cannot simply "deny," the commitment of their faith in Jesus as the author and perfecter of salvation. Every "True," Christian(when so tested,) has willingly chosen torturous death over denying Jesus; and many have had just that occur. However, one who is falsely perceived or self-deceived as being a "true," and unwaveringly sincere Christian; this is a different matter; for regardless of the appearance or accepted illusion, there is truth to the idea that a shaky faith/commitment leaves room to "waffle," on salvation. Even then, one must consider that if this is indeed the case; was the initial commitment to Christ even sincere? Was it in deception? Was there unbelief in what transpired through the finished work of Christ? Let us keep in mind the context when Jesus made the "unforgivable sin," statement. He was speaking towards the Pharisees and spiritual leaders of the time; confronting them for "attributing to Satan what is indeed of God." However, let's apply this in context given the scenario at the time. Their misappropriation of the source of power wasn't simply directed "towards the enemy," this was an illustration. These leaders were directly opposing Jesus, actively obstructing and waging war against Him. Jesus was making a point here that denial of Christ in and of itself is the unforgivable sin. If we deny any aspect of Jesus personage, lineage, divinity, purity, etc.; we thus deny and refuse salvation even if we are not aware of it. Finally, I would point out the parable of the workers in the vineyard; and how those starting work at the final hour received the same pay as those who worked from the very beginning. A person may be militantly opposed to Christ all his/her life; yet in their final heartbeat, if they turn to Him with complete sincerity...I assure you He will not fail to answer. Just some things to think about anyways; I cannot claim to be a biblical scholar by any means.

That's one long paragraph there!

I read it twice and if I understand you, I do believe we agree. I'd change "a true Christian" to " a Christian in name only", but I do agree with you that when we speak of the spirit, words can take on different meaning.
I very much agree with your next to last sentence which makes more people saved than many of us would care to believe.

Denial of Christ is the unpardonable sin. We say the Holy Ghost, but of course, it would be Christ too. If we DENY Him, at any point of our lives, I think our soul is in danger. I do agree with you that once we have tasted of His goodness, it's very difficult to abandon Him.
John 6:68

I can only say that we cannot EXCLUDE the fact that one MAY decide to abandon his faith in the Lord.

You do bring a fresh perspective, in my opinion.


Wondering

 

[LovethroughDove]

It's interesting that traditional OSAS people like yourself can not see the necessity to continue in faith to continue to be saved in their own argument. You are in agreement with non-OSAS--believers have to keep believing to the very end to be saved in the very end. Stop approaching the throne for mercy and grace because of unbelief/contempt for salvation and you will lose your salvation that going to the throne keeps for you.

I am in agreement with shiny4ujesus. I'm so in love with Jesus and he is part of me now.
John 14:20 On that day you will realize that I am in the Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

1 John 2:19-20 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.

All true believers remain. Hence, they never lost their salvation. Our love for him overpowers everything and anything. It is not fake. I don't even have to think about believing..............It just is.

 

[smaller]

The common denominator, which I try to look for in any of these various debates, is that both sides of this particular debate fence actually have devised various and interesting ways to "AVOID" Gods Adverse Judgments that are eternally adverse.

But if we stopped and thought about these things for a moment, every day is Judgment Day in Gods Eyes. God is always against evil, always against indwelling sin. There is no question about this. And these judgments of God are "eternal." This will always be so. We should never expect God to be for and in behalf of evil and sin.

In the truest sense, God can only be for and in behalf of and for His Own Perfection.

This is where, In Christ, God brings out His Own Eternal Self, and demonstrates Himself into creation. In Him, we are treated to the exposure of Gods Finest Eternal Expressions. Of forgiveness, of faith, of Love, of Mercy, of endurance, of SHARING, of justice, of Divine Rightful Condemnation.

So many matters are expressed in Christ we'd be hard pressed to keep track of them all. If we are observant of His Every Word, then we pay attention to what Jesus termed the "weightier matters" of the law for example:

Matthew 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

The difficulty that both postures of the debate pose, is that they both seek to AVOID Gods Eternal Condemnation, particularly as it applies to themselves. BUT, I think we can be fully assured and persuaded that IN CHRIST, there is ETERNAL ADVERSE JUDGMENT applied to all sin and evil.

And, thusly, if we are 'in Christ' then eternal adverse judgment is a matter that we ourselves have to LIVE IN. Not avoid.

And it is there that both sides to the debate fall apart, trying quite futility to avoid this reality of God in Christ.

The only Divine Reason creation itself even EXISTS is as an expression of Gods Own Mercy in "allowing" things other than and lesser to Himself to exist, and this, as an expression of His Own Mercy in allowing it to be so. Nobody "earned" that right. Nobody. No thing earned that right. No thing.

Paul elaborates on this principle here, in Acts 17, when speaking to the unbelievers on Mars Hill. I would consider this one of the finest expressions of the Spirit that came forth from Paul:

16 Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.
17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.
18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.
19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.
21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)

22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

Paul is flat out telling them the truth here, that without God, they would NOT EVEN EXIST.

And Paul warns them of what is to come:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Paul is telling even US in this matter, that there will be only ONE LAST MAN, Standing.

God The Father is only Pleased in and with His Own Son.

When any of us 'believed' we at that moment, began the process of CHANGE into HIM. And this, by rights, demands our own eternal destruction. This is part of the Gospel that few care to tell of.

When we believed, WE DIED.

There isn't going to be anything left of "you or I" as we currently perceive ourselves. We will quite GLADLY, give ourselves up, entirely, in favor of His Perfection.

All you believers seeking to eternally destroy another believer really have NO IDEA what you are even talking about. You would be better served to put eternal damnation/destruction on your own SELF, because THAT is the Spiritual Reality of what is to come.

Don't believe me? Look at what Paul says Intention of Christ IS:

1 Corinthians 15:24
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

As His creations, we are only reconciled to the OBVIOUS, of what is to come. But we can neither change the outcome or avoid the outcome.

Anything contrary to Christ will simply cease to exist. Will God then eternally torture? No. It is as the scriptures state, "eternal destruction." God "destroys" His enemies. He has no need to "torture them" nor will they "torture themselves."

1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

If I had DEATH plastered across my lips to other believers, I'd maybe think best to wipe that off my filthy face, early and often.

Ezekiel 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

We ALL have "evil" to TURN FROM. Why waste your breath on another man's EVIL? Look upon your SELF, and WEEP for HIS MERCY. It cost Jesus His Own flesh Life to show it to YOU.

You will find His Mercy ever ready to DESTROY everything that is contrary to LIFE. God doesn't need "your help."

IF you are blessed, you may even get a taste of what it is like being HONEST about your need of His Mercy.

You think it MERCIFUL to dangle your fellow believer over the flames of eternal torture? I pray God give you a taste of your own medicine.

Matthew 5:7
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

 

[SHINY4UJESUS]

Thanks Folks! Also, true Wondering. I used that intentionally for irony; thinking that perhaps the underlying theme would illustrate the principle. Perhaps, though I would do well to be less "flippant," I suppose.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Hi LTD
Of course we're in the flesh. Paul and Jesus were both speaking to people in the flesh. What does this mean? I don't understand how you mean this.

Do you mean that the Holy Spirit guides our flesh? Does this mean we never sin?


Wondering

I mean, God's word will accomplish in a believer what it is set out to do.

Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

Whatever words were given by the Holy Spirit, were given for a purpose.

The admonishments given from Jesus and Paul accomplish in a believer, what it is supposed to accomplish - - - -keeps the flesh going in the right direction in holiness. I listen to my God fully, cause he knows what's best for my soul.

 

[SHINY4UJESUS]

In Romans 7:1-22 Paul gives a great example of struggle with sin, why it is the hearts intention that weighs more than the ensuing action, and the dual nature we have as humans. We have on the one hand: a born again, righteous by faith nature in the Spirit; on the other hand we have: "The nature of the flesh," also known as "sinful," or "worldly," nature. Being "in the flesh," is a lose terminology to illustrate living in a manner that pleases the "flesh," or sinful nature; as opposed to what pleases God. This is what I would presume was being asked for regarding clarification

 

[LovethroughDove]

Please consider this well. The OSAS side says that once you are saved, you will REMAIN saved NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO for the rest of your life. They believe it's not even necessary to ask for forgiveness because it's an insult to Jesus.

I'm interested in your reply.


Wondering

Maybe I'm a different version of OSAS, cause I don't believe you can keep on going about your business the same as before you were born again.

Edit: And you won't remain the same, if it's a true conversion

I have anger and a few other issues that God is working with me on. I am "being" transformed. 2 Corinthians 3:18

 

[SHINY4UJESUS]

This brings to mind several chapters in Corinthians, I believe the 2nd letter chapters 12-14. Let us neither give offense or take offense; for each has their own tradition. As Paul asserts, we only place obstacles in the paths of others by being forceful on one manner or another. Regardless which side of the fence we are on: our belief one way or another will not impact the fact that it will yet remain what it is, and some day perhaps we will have the privilege of seeing the answer unfold in front of us! Believe what you will folks; for as long as you believe God raised Jesus from the dead, and confess Christ with your mouth, you are saved! To me this is all that matters.

 

[Particular Baptist]

So to you the Holy Spirit is like a guard. You say that He will not let you dishonor your parents. IOW, He stops you from sinning. Does this mean you have no free will once you accept the Holy Spirit? Does it mean that if I'm saved, I CANNOT dishonor my parents?

You say He will guide me through all situations, even more than the ones found in the 10 Commandments. Does this mean that if I break ONE commandment, I am not saved?

You quote Mathew 5:20. This is very interesting since persons who believe that once you are saved, you are saved forever, do NOT believe Mathew 5:20. It's the non-OSAS crowd who says that you must be righteous before God to be saved. In Mathew Jesus is saying that you DO have to follow all the Laws or you will not enter into the Kingdom of heaven.

If you believe the 10 Commandments should be followed to hold on to salvation, I'd say you're on the non-OSAS side. Please consider this well. The OSAS side says that once you are saved, you will REMAIN saved NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO for the rest of your life. They believe it's not even necessary to ask for forgiveness because it's an insult to Jesus.

I'm interested in your reply.


Wondering

A person is yet subject to the chastening of the LORD. John as well as Paul write of sins unto death; a sign someone is not saved is a dearth of divine chastisement in their lives, or as says the scripture, a bastard (Hebrews 12.5-11).

Deuteronomy 8.5 "Thou shalt also consider in thine heart, that, as a man chasteneth his son, so the LORD thy God chasteneth thee."

I Corinthians 3.16-7 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."

II Corinthians 6.9 "as unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;"

I John 5.16-8 "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."

Apocalypse 3.19-22 "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."