Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

[FreeGrace]

You have your own claims FreeGrace.

We all do. And I can provide verses that say what I claim.

Regarding 2 Peter 2:20-22 you say:

Why? Because, IF they return to their former lifestyle AFTER knowing the path of righteous living, they will sink deeper into their former lifestyle.

And what lifestyle is that?

Their "former lifestyle" of course. When they were unbelievers. Living like unbelievers. It's real clear.

If the bible clearly states that those living a certain lifestyle CANNOT enter into the Kingdom of heaven, what happens when a born again believer RETURNS to that lifestyle?

But it doesn't "clearly state" that. The ONLY barrier to entrance is lack of possessing God's life; eternal life, an irrevocable gift.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Galatians 5:19-21
Ephesians 5:5

These 3 passages are parallel and speak of the exact same thing. 1 Cor 6 and Gal 5 speak of "not inheriting the kingdom" but Eph 5 speaks of "having no inheritance IN the kingdom". So we see that this isn't about not entering the kingdom, but having NO inheritance (rewards) IN the kingdom.

Colossians 1:12-13

Here's the verse:
12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light.
13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,

I wish some explanation would be given when verses are cited, so I know what the point is. I have no idea of why these verses were cited.

But, clearly v.12 is about how one IS qualified believers to share in the inheritance. The ONLY qualification for entrance into the kingdom is having eternal life, which is a gift of God that is also irrevocable.

Also, Mathew 12:31 has always intrigued me.
If I turn down the Holy Spirit, is this not the unpardonable sin??

I don't know what is meant by "turn down". Please advise. What is clear from that context is that no one today can commit that unpardonable sin. Only those Pharisees during Jesus' day who SAW the miracles themselves and attributed them to Satan were guilty of that. That was unpardonable. Jesus said that EVEN blasphemy against Himself wasn't unpardonable.

And the question in Mathew 21:28
Which son did the Father's will?

The one who did the Father's will. Not the one who only paid lip service.

Jesus always said it was necessary to do the Father's will to get into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Sure. And what is the Father's will? It isn't about works.

Here is the Father's will:
John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

And that's how one is qualified to share in the inheritance.

Mathew 12:50
Jesus said that those who do the Fathers will are His brothers and sisters.

Yes, those who fulfill John 6:40 are spiritual brothers and sisters.

And
Mathew 7:21
Not everyone will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, only those who do the will of the Father.

That's exactly what I've been saying. One must believe in order to receive eternal life and enter the kingdom.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Continued from the other thread about Romans 7:




12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:12-15


James plainly says when we have been approved, we will receive the crown of Life.

However in this life we must learn to avoid, and endure temptation, that leads to sin.

... and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Apostasy is not the topic here in James warning, but sin. Not just a mistake here and there, but sin that is neglected to the point it becomes full grown, and ends up bringing death to the Christian who is drawn away by their desires.



JLB

Why certainly it is possible that a person can loose their salvation: And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. , Matthew 24:12King James Version (KJV)

12

Resourses: But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. , Matthew 24:13King James Version (KJV)

13

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+24:+12,+13&version=KJV

John 8:31, 32.

 

[GodsGrace]

We all do. And I can provide verses that say what I claim.

Their "former lifestyle" of course. When they were unbelievers. Living like unbelievers. It's real clear.

But it doesn't "clearly state" that. The ONLY barrier to entrance is lack of possessing God's life; eternal life, an irrevocable gift.

These 3 passages are parallel and speak of the exact same thing. 1 Cor 6 and Gal 5 speak of "not inheriting the kingdom" but Eph 5 speaks of "having no inheritance IN the kingdom". So we see that this isn't about not entering the kingdom, but having NO inheritance (rewards) IN the kingdom.

Here's the verse:
12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light.
13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,

I wish some explanation would be given when verses are cited, so I know what the point is. I have no idea of why these verses were cited.

But, clearly v.12 is about how one IS qualified believers to share in the inheritance. The ONLY qualification for entrance into the kingdom is having eternal life, which is a gift of God that is also irrevocable.

I don't know what is meant by "turn down". Please advise. What is clear from that context is that no one today can commit that unpardonable sin. Only those Pharisees during Jesus' day who SAW the miracles themselves and attributed them to Satan were guilty of that. That was unpardonable. Jesus said that EVEN blasphemy against Himself wasn't unpardonable.

The one who did the Father's will. Not the one who only paid lip service.

Sure. And what is the Father's will? It isn't about works.

Here is the Father's will:
John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

And that's how one is qualified to share in the inheritance.

Yes, those who fulfill John 6:40 are spiritual brothers and sisters.

That's exactly what I've been saying. One must believe in order to receive eternal life and enter the kingdom.

Hi FreeGrace,
I believe you said you know Greek.

Could you please, in reference to the highlighted above,
explain what BELIEVE means in Greek?

I ask because you said that this is ALL that is necessary to have eternal life.
So it seems to me that the word BELIEVE is very important. I'd like to know your understanding of this word.

Wondering
P.S. You don't know what "turning down" the Holy Spirit means?
Have you ever been turned down by a girl?
That's the best way I could explain it.

 

[FreeGrace]

Regarding 1 Cor 1:21 -

By the way......'believe' is in the present tense:

OK. And 'believe' is in the aorist tenst in Luke 8:12 where Jesus said "lest they believe and be saved".

And in Acts 16:31 in Paul's answer to the jailer's question: "what MUST I DO to be saved?" and Paul said to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved".

And in Rom 10:9.

Point being: the word 'believe' is found to be in both the present and aorist tense. Further, Jesus used the present tense for 'believe' in Luke 8:13 regarding the 2nd soil. Then He added, "for a while", which takes the wind right out of the sails.

 

[FreeGrace]

I'm sorry if I misunderstood FreeGrace.
But you yourself have repeated what you stated AGAIN up above.
Here it is:
"Why would anyone conclude from what I said that "God saves everyone in Jesus Christ"??

You're saying that God saves everyone is Jesus Christ. God saves EVERYONE in Jesus Christ.

OK. I think I see the problem. You've missing the phrase "in Jesus Christ".

iow, ONLY those who are "in Jesus Christ" will be saved. Or, God saves EVERYONE who is "in Jesus Christ".

Does that help?

You see. Words mean something to me. I pay attention to words. It's an important thing to do.

They mean just as much to me.

For instance, you have a different understanding of FALLEN AWAY or FALLING AWAY than I do.
To me this means LEAVING THE FAITH and return to unbelief.

Is that an assumption, or based on a verse that clearly teaches that?

Falling Away is a really simple concept. Here's some scripture that shows that IT IS POSSIBLE to fall away even after one has believed.

1 Timothy 4:1 ESV /
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons.

Hebrews 6:4-6 ESV /
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

Revelation 2:4-5 ESV /
But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

Hebrews 3:12-19 ESV /
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. As it is said, “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? ...

yep. A believer CAN fall away. But Jesus actually defined what He meant by "fall away" in Luke 8:13 - Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

Now, what did they fall away from? From believing, of course.

Jesus could just as easily said this:

"they believe for a while, but in the time of testing, they ceased to believe.

THIS ONE SHOULD BE NOTED:

I'm not going to address each and every verse you provide. But it's clear to me that there's been just a whole lot of assumption going on.

HERE PAUL SAYS THAT HE HIMSELF MAY BE DISQUALIFIED!

1 Corinthians 9:27 ESV /
But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

Yes, he did say that. But the question is "disqualified" from WHAT? The context from v.24 on deals with winning "the prize" and "a crown that will last forever". Both of these things refer to eternal reward, NOT salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

Oh my.
You missed the post where I was explaining about receiving the seal?
It's post no. 751.

I addressed that issue in 2 posts, which was apparently missed. #754 and #758.

If your interest is in what the word of God says, I do hope you'll reconsider your position.

Wondering

I absolutely disagree with your position.

 

[FreeGrace]

Hi FreeGrace,
I believe you said you know Greek.

And I believe that you're mistaken. I never said that. When I mention anything Greek, it's because I have Greek study tools that inform my understanding of the various tenses, moods, and voice.

Could you please, in reference to the highlighted above,
explain what BELIEVE means in Greek?

Sure. Happy to.

From John 3:16 - πιστεύω pisteuō

1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
1a) of the thing believed
1a1) to credit, have confidence
1b) in a moral or religious reference
1b1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
1b2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
2a) to be intrusted with a thing

I ask because you said that this is ALL that is necessary to have eternal life.

No, the Bible says it. Repeatedly.

Mark 16:16
16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12
12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12
12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14
14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31
They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15
15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5
5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

So it seems to me that the word BELIEVE is very important. I'd like to know your understanding of this word.

Yes, the word IS very important.

P.S. You don't know what "turning down" the Holy Spirit means?

I don't have any idea what it means in your theology.

Have you ever been turned down by a girl?

No. I have no idea what you're talking about.

That's the best way I could explain it.

Please try again. I don't see any connection.

 

[JLB]

Why certainly it is possible that a person can loose their salvation: And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. , Matthew 24:12King James Version (KJV)

12

Resourses: But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. , Matthew 24:13King James Version (KJV)

13

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+24:+12,+13&version=KJV

John 8:31, 32.

Yes sir. I agree.


JLB

 

[JLB]

"they believe for a while, but in the time of testing, they ceased to believe.

Yes they returned to unbelieving.

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8



OSAS



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Regarding 1 Cor 1:21 -

OK. And 'believe' is in the aorist tenst in Luke 8:12 where Jesus said "lest they believe and be saved".

And in Acts 16:31 in Paul's answer to the jailer's question: "what MUST I DO to be saved?" and Paul said to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved".

And in Rom 10:9.

Point being: the word 'believe' is found to be in both the present and aorist tense. Further, Jesus used the present tense for 'believe' in Luke 8:13 regarding the 2nd soil. Then He added, "for a while", which takes the wind right out of the sails.

Here, read this:

"The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense, though it is generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations.

The events described by the aorist tense are classified into a number of categories by grammarians. The most common of these include a view of the action as having begun from a certain point ("inceptive aorist"), or having ended at a certain point ("cumulative aorist"), or merely existing at a certain point ("punctiliar aorist"). The categorization of other cases can be found in Greek reference grammars.

The English reader need not concern himself with most of these finer points concerning the aorist tense, since in most cases they cannot be rendered accurately in English translation, being fine points of Greek exegesis only. The common practice of rendering an aorist by a simple English past tense should suffice in most cases." https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/act/16/1/t_conc_1034031 (bold mine)
​

But all you really have to remember is present believing/ salvation started somewhere in the past.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So, the "distinct entity" that gets born AGAIN is the human spirit.

No, I'm pretty sure I had one of those before I got saved. It became 'alive' in regard to quality of life, not in regard to actually being alive.
There is nothing about being born again by the Spirit that makes it irreversible like a literal human birth is irreversible. It's an absurd analogy.

Those who understand the "part IN the city" as a reference to eternal rewards, my interpretation isn't at all trumped by the warning. In fact, it supports my interpretation.

What part of 'outside the city' do you not grasp? This is what John said is the fate of those outside the city:

15Outside (the city - see context) are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying." (Revelation 22:15 NASB bold mine)

"I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7“He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”" (Revelation 21:6-8 NASB bold and underline mine)

The river of life that those outside the city do not have access to is Christ's eternal life (John 4:14 NASB). If anyone ADDS to, and TAKES AWAY from the prophecy of Revelation by saying born again, saved people who have Christ's abundant spring of eternal life rising up and flowing out of them (John 4:14 NASB) are also outside of the city they themselves, according to John, will be cast out of the city and away from the river and tree of life and have their part in the lake of fire (Revelation 22:18-19 NASB).

And I think that's a just punishment. Leading believers in Christ to think they can be disobedient, even unbelieving, denying Christ, and they will still have Christ's eternal life, and they then do that thinking they are safe is a pretty serious offense. Christ said it's better to have a millstone tied around your neck and drowned in the sea than to cause one of his believers to stumble so as to be cast into the fiery hell (which you claim can not happen under any circumstances--even unbelief).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So let's get back to the issue OSAS can't make go away:

"whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

7“Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!

8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:6-9 NASB bold and underline mine)

"43“If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire" (Mark 9:43 NASB capitals in original, bold and underline mine)​

It's impossible to make 'fiery hell' not mean the torment of the damned. Jesus is plainly saying that real believers in him (vs.6) are to remove the stumbling block from the body so they do not stumble and go to the eternal, fiery hell. It's the same description of the eternal fiery torment of the damned Jesus uses in Matthew 25:14 NASB...

"‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:14 NASB)​

...and which John uses in Revelation 14:11 NASB...

"he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11“And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever" (Revelation 14:10-11 NASB bold and underline mine)​

It's impossible for OSAS to say the eternal, fiery hell that stumbling believers could potentially go to is 'not really' the lake of fire. Impossible. And it's impossible for OSAS to say He's not talking about 'real' believers.

Matthew 18:6-9 / Mark 9:42-48 NASB is the kill shot for OSAS. There's no way around it.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes they returned to unbelieving.

You've still not provided any evidence from Scripture that ceasing to believe results in loss of salvation.

The Bible teaches that eternal life is a gift of God in Rom 6:23.
The Bible teaches that the gifts of God are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

Between these 2 verses in Romans, Paul doesn't mention 'gifts'.

Therefore, eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable. Biblical.

The more glaring problem for the eternal insecurity folk is that the Bible no where states that salvation or eternal life can be lost. It has to be assumed from poorly interpreted passages.

 

[FreeGrace]

Here, read this:

"The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense, though it is generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations.

The events described by the aorist tense are classified into a number of categories by grammarians. The most common of these include a view of the action as having begun from a certain point ("inceptive aorist"), or having ended at a certain point ("cumulative aorist"), or merely existing at a certain point ("punctiliar aorist"). The categorization of other cases can be found in Greek reference grammars.

The English reader need not concern himself with most of these finer points concerning the aorist tense, since in most cases they cannot be rendered accurately in English translation, being fine points of Greek exegesis only. The common practice of rendering an aorist by a simple English past tense should suffice in most cases." https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/act/16/1/t_conc_1034031 (bold mine)
​

But all you really have to remember is present believing/ salvation started somewhere in the past.

No one argues against this very obvious point.

The point is that SINCE both Jesus and Paul used the aorist tense in verses about believing and being saved, one CANNOT legitimately claim from other verses that on-going belief is required for on-going salvation.

Once again, one must assume that, and in so doing, ignore the aorist in other verses that refutes that idea.

The point of the aorist is that it gives NO REGARD for duration of time.

Therefore, those who believe in a point in time, without regard for duration of that belief, are saved.

 

[FreeGrace]

No, I'm pretty sure I had one of those before I got saved.

Don't confuse the soul with the spirit. The Lord told Adam that "in the day that you eat of the tree, you will die". Did Adam fall dead physically after one bite? Of course not. What died was his human spirit. He body and soul continued to live.

It became 'alive' in regard to quality of life, not in regard to actually being alive.

Opinion noted.

There is nothing about being born again by the Spirit that makes it irreversible like a literal human birth is irreversible. It's an absurd analogy.

Since the Bible uses words and descriptions to communicate principles and facts, I believe it's absurd to claim that comparing spiritual birth to physical birth as a parallel is absurd.

What part of 'outside the city' do you not grasp?

I have no problem with what's inside the gates of the city (v.14) and what's outside the city.

Why should anyone think that the lake of fire is just outside the city? Please explain.

 

[FreeGrace]

Matthew 18:6-9 / Mark 9:42-48 NASB is the kill shot for OSAS. There's no way around it.

Speaking of kill shots, since the Bible teaches that eternal life is a gift of God and the gifts of God are irrevocable, the fact is that eternal life is irrevocable.

Which proves that salvation cannot be lost.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The point of the aorist is that it gives NO REGARD for duration of time.

Therefore, those who believe in a point in time, without regard for duration of that belief, are saved.

Of course a person was saved when they believed somewhere in the past.
You can't choose to ignore the present tense that says you have to still be doing that believing today to be saved today:

"you (presently) are saved, if you (presently) hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB parenthesis mine)

The aorist tense in other passages doesn't negate the present tense truth in this and other passages. It's absurd to argue it does. Absolutely absurd.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Did Adam fall dead physically after one bite? Of course not. What died was his human spirit. He body and soul continued to live.

"the body without the spirit is dead" (James 2:26 NASB)

But you say the body is still alive without the spirit (supposedly the spirit of a man being gone altogether in his fallen state, and, thus, needing to be 'reborn').

And that's the problem with false doctrines, you have to keep making up false doctrines to cover your tracks from the first ones. You keep stepping in it. That's why non-OSAS is so easy to defend and easily stands up to scrutiny, because I'm simply using the scriptures for what they say and don't need to invent doctrines to cover my tracks, and don't need a dozen 'not really' explanations for plain words of scripture, and I don't need to redefine terms.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have no problem with what's inside the gates of the city (v.14) and what's outside the city.

Show us the scripture that describes having Christ's eternal life outside the city away from the tree of life and the river of life. Or have you been adding to the prophecy of Revelation? If you are, the penalty for doing so is very severe (Revelation 22:18-19 NASB).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why should anyone think that the lake of fire is just outside the city? Please explain.

I don't know how far away it is from the city. The point you are evading is what John says is the fate of those who are outside the city:

15Outside (the city - see context) are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying." (Revelation 22:15 NASB bold mine)

"I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7“He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”" (Revelation 21:6-8 NASB bold and underline mine)

You have to change the prophecy of Revelation to make it so John 'isn't really' saying God will take away your eternal life for changing the words of the Revelation prophecy (Revelation 22:19 NASB). Which directly contradicts your claim that no where in the Bible does it talk about God taking eternal life away. Well, as we can all see, it does talk about that.