Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

[smaller]

I know not death
But Life
Through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ

Proverbs 3:5-6New King James Version (NKJV)
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
6 In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall directa]" data-fn="#fen-NKJV-16462a">[a] your paths

Wondering

Colossians 3:
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

 

[GodsGrace]

FreeGrace

I don't have a lot of time, but let me touch on this:

Wondering says:
What is it that saves us?
it is Faith.

FreeGrace says:
No, it is God Himself who saves us. In Jesus Christ, also called the Savior.

So what you're saying is that God saves everyone in Jesus Christ, also called the Savior.

Whether or not they have faith according to you.

So you're also a universalist, if you don't believe faith is necessary for salvation.
Ephesians 2:8 is so clear about this...


Wondering

 

[FreeGrace]

There are many verses regarding loss of salvation. JLB and Jethro Bodine have posted many.
We all know the same verses FreeGrace.

What I absolutely know is that NONE of those cited or quoted verses SAY what is being claimed.

Could you just do me the favor of explaining this verse, which no one ever has:
2 Peter 2:20-22
Thanks.

I'd be happy to.

First, here is the passage from the NASB:
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”

We must start with v.18, where Peter describes believers who are victims of false teachers. They have "actually" escaped from those who live in error.

v.20 clearly identifies them as believers who escaped defilement of the world by knowledge of the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. But the point is: IF they again become entangled in them and are overcome, the "last state is worse for them than the first state.

When one is overcome by something, they are brought into bondage b y that very thing. Agreed?

Now, to address the phrase "last state worse than the first". Though some will assume it refers to going to hell, instead, it refers to the actual conduct of such people. This is so because conduct is precisely what is being discussed.

iow, when a believer escapes an immoral lifestyle through the knowledge of the Lord, and then if he abandons the holiness he has found, he will sink more deeply than ever into the pollution of the world.

So, v.21 simply conveys the point that one who has escaped pollution of the world, and then becomes entangled in it again, will be in a worse state than before. Peter is clearly not teaching that it would be better for one to never have known the Lord as Savior. It is the path of righteous living that they would be better off not knowing.

Why? Because, IF they return to their former lifestyle AFTER knowing the path of righteous living, they will sink deeper into their former lifestyle.

v.22 is about those who follow this spiritual deception that behave in a gross and degrading way, like the example Peter gives of a dog returning to its own vomit, or a sow wallowing in the mire after having been bathed.

This pointed proverb is simply a straightforward descriptioin of the conduct of those who heed the false teaching. They are behaving like disgusting animals.

Remember, 2 Peter is about conduct, lifestyle.

I hope this helps.

 

[GodsGrace]

Colossians 3:
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Oh. I agree with that.
I have died so that Christ might live in me.
New wine cannot be put into old wine skins.
The old has passsed away, behold all things are new.
Do not adhere to this world but transformed by the renewing of your mind.
And many others...

 

[FreeGrace]

I gave you my understanding of Ephesians 4:30. It's more than my understanding. It's the belief of major churches of the Christian faith. Except for the reformed one, of course.

At least, is there a post # where I could review it, since it seems I won't be getting a review from your posts.

I won't be posting anymore assumptions FreeGrace.

Thank you, because I'm not interested in assumptions, guess work, or what have you. My interest is in what the Word of God SAYS.

However, you do say funny things. Like, for instance, that it's God who saves us through Jesus Christ.

How is that funny?

First of all Jesus is God.

Yes, that is why I said what I said.

You separate the three persons of the Trinity? Interesting.

Why wouldn't I? Do you know believe the Trinity is 3 persons in One?

Second of all, God planned our salvation through Jesus? Thank you for the information! I knew this when I was 10 years old.

How should I know what you know? I do recall that you are fond of assumptions. But I make no assumptions.

However, as expected you DID NOT give me an explanation for

2 Peter 2:20-22

Thanks again.
I await your reply.

Don't post so quick. While this post was being created, my answer was as well being created.

Give a guy a bit of time, ok?

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace

I don't have a lot of time, but let me touch on this:

Wondering says:
What is it that saves us?
it is Faith.

FreeGrace says:
No, it is God Himself who saves us. In Jesus Christ, also called the Savior.

So what you're saying is that God saves everyone in Jesus Christ, also called the Savior.

Whether or not they have faith according to you.

So you're also a universalist, if you don't believe faith is necessary for salvation.
Ephesians 2:8 is so clear about this...
Wondering

Your conclusion about what I believe are absurd. I'm NO universalist. Why would anyone conclude from what I said that "God saves everyone in Jesus Christ"?? Preposterous.

Consider 1 Cor 1:21 NASB - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

That is what I believe. How in the world would anyone come to the ridiculous conclusion that I am a universalist?

Your previous post claimed that I post some silly things. I think your claim about what I believe is worse than silly.

 

[smaller]

Oh. I agree with that.
I have died so that Christ might live in me.
New wine cannot be put into old wine skins.
The old has passsed away, behold all things are new.
Do not adhere to this world but transformed by the renewing of your mind.
And many others...

Then I simply ask, why be an eternal death monger to other believers? We "share" His Life.

We've all been provided an easy shill in the scriptures upon which to exercise eternal adverse judgments.

John 16:11
Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

The Reality of Salvation is that only Christ is "saved."

1 Peter 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I believe that truth ALWAYS has an answer for every question. So when answers are not given, I will always take that as lack of truth in the one being asked.

You mean like how believers won't ever take the mark of the beast? Surely there must be an answer to that question since it is supposedly truth.

Either one who ceases to believe remains a new creature and born again, or God somehow undoes all that. That's what my statement about "stuffing back into the womb" was about; God reversing the action of giving new birth to those who believe.

And, instead of a simple answer to my clear question, your response dodged it. So I'll take that as a non answer.

Did you forget? I said it's just as easy for God to remove his Spirit from a person as it was putting him in there. There is nothing irreversible about it as if we were born from some kind of womb somewhere. Being born again means becoming a new person by the the Holy Spirit:

"6“Then the Spirit of the LORD will come upon you mightily, and you shall prophesy with them and be changed into another man." (1 Samuel 10:6 NASB)

8“The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”John 5:8 NASB).

God can just as easily blow out of a person as he did blow into them. There is no new distinct entity that gets birthed when we get the Holy Spirit. Our character gets changed--that's how we are born again. To try to use the analogy of an actual birth from the womb to insist you can't be un-born is to not understand what the new birth actually is. But of course, surely if what you say is true there is an answer of some kind of womb to back up what you're saying, right? I don't recall coming out of a womb when I was born again. But I do recall the Holy Spirit coming into me! That's for sure.

Really? The Bible teaches just the exact opposite. That the indwelling Holy Spirit is a gift of God, per Acts 1:4, 2:38, 8:20, and 10:45.

And...the Bible teaches that the gifts of God are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

Therefore, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is permanent, irrevocable.

Your opinion as to the interpretation is easily trumped by God's clear and plain warning in Revelation 22:19 NASB that He will take away a person's part in the City where the river and tree of life are for the reason he says, and they will instead go outside of the city to be with those who's "part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death" (Revelation 21:8 NASB). It's not right, or honest to take a more vague passage of scripture (Romans 11:29 NASB), interpret it the way you want to, and ignore the clear and plain passages that teach contrary to that interpretation.

As per usual, there is nothing here about being "unborn" as being claimed. And nothing about being "cast away from the presence of God". Your views are assumptions only. Not advisable when forming doctrines.

Why did you isolate it away from the rest of the counsel of scripture I quoted with it that shows that to not be in the city is to have your part in the lake of fire? That's not right, or fair to do.

 

[GodsGrace]

What I absolutely know is that NONE of those cited or quoted verses SAY what is being claimed.


I'd be happy to.

First, here is the passage from the NASB:
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”

We must start with v.18, where Peter describes believers who are victims of false teachers. They have "actually" escaped from those who live in error.

v.20 clearly identifies them as believers who escaped defilement of the world by knowledge of the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. But the point is: IF they again become entangled in them and are overcome, the "last state is worse for them than the first state.

When one is overcome by something, they are brought into bondage b y that very thing. Agreed?

Now, to address the phrase "last state worse than the first". Though some will assume it refers to going to hell, instead, it refers to the actual conduct of such people. This is so because conduct is precisely what is being discussed.

iow, when a believer escapes an immoral lifestyle through the knowledge of the Lord, and then if he abandons the holiness he has found, he will sink more deeply than ever into the pollution of the world.

So, v.21 simply conveys the point that one who has escaped pollution of the world, and then becomes entangled in it again, will be in a worse state than before. Peter is clearly not teaching that it would be better for one to never have known the Lord as Savior. It is the path of righteous living that they would be better off not knowing.

Why? Because, IF they return to their former lifestyle AFTER knowing the path of righteous living, they will sink deeper into their former lifestyle.

v.22 is about those who follow this spiritual deception that behave in a gross and degrading way, like the example Peter gives of a dog returning to its own vomit, or a sow wallowing in the mire after having been bathed.

This pointed proverb is simply a straightforward descriptioin of the conduct of those who heed the false teaching. They are behaving like disgusting animals.

Remember, 2 Peter is about conduct, lifestyle.

I hope this helps.

You have your own claims FreeGrace.

Regarding 2 Peter 2:20-22 you say:

Why? Because, IF they return to their former lifestyle AFTER knowing the path of righteous living, they will sink deeper into their former lifestyle.

And what lifestyle is that? If the bible clearly states that those living a certain lifestyle CANNOT enter into the Kingdom of heaven, what happens when a born again believer RETURNS to that lifestyle?:
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Galatians 5:19-21
Ephesians 5:5
Colossians 1:12-13

Also, Mathew 12:31 has always intrigued me.
If I turn down the Holy Spirit, is this not the unpardonable sin??

And the question in Mathew 21:28
Which son did the Father's will?
Jesus always said it was necessary to do the Father's will to get into the Kingdom of Heaven.


Mathew 12:50
Jesus said that those who do the Fathers will are His brothers and sisters.

And
Mathew 7:21
Not everyone will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, only those who do the will of the Father.


Wondering

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Consider 1 Cor 1:21 NASB - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

By the way......'believe' is in the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense." https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1co/1/1/t_conc_1063021

 

[smaller]

God can just as easily blow out of a person as he did blow into them.

Sounds like God is exceptionally fickle. Where is there a place apart from Gods Omnipresence anyway? Is there such a domain? I don't think so. Rev. 14:10.

 

[GodsGrace]

Then I simply ask, why be an eternal death monger to other believers? We "share" His Life.

We've all been provided an easy shill in the scriptures upon which to exercise eternal adverse judgments.

John 16:11
Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

The Reality of Salvation is that only Christ is "saved."

1 Peter 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

Let me ask this then.

Why do other believers try to tell me I can do whatever I want to do and still be saved?

Why else would the doctrine of OSAS be believed by anyone?
If they insist that this doctrine does NOT mean they are allowed to sin, then why hold on to it so tightly?
If they aren't going to sin, what are they afraid of?
As long as you're IN CHRIST, you're saved.
If you DON'T WANT TO BE IN CHRIST, why should you be saved by force?

Salvation come through Faith. We are saved by our Faith in Jesus.

No Faith = No Salvation

Faith = Salvation, the freedom and happiness to know the Lord. LIFE. no death Death has been left behind forever.

For as long as I wish to serve God and not satan.
You MUST be for one or for the other.

Man cannot serve two masters.

I'm either serving God or I'm serving satan.
§There's no grey, in between state.
It's one or the other.

Jesus said if they are not against us they are for us.

We're either FOR him or AGAINST Him.

We could post scripture all day long. Above is a short version of the Christian faith.
Everything else is detail.

Should I list again what the early church Father's said about eternal salvation and works?
This OSAS idea DID NOT exist during the time of the Apostles, or immediately thereafter.
Who knows better? §Them, or Calvin??


Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Sounds like God is exceptionally fickle. Where is there a place apart from Gods Omnipresence anyway? Is there such a domain? I don't think so. Rev. 14:10.

Smaller,
I'm surprised at you.

God is everywhere.
That's different from the Holy Spirit INDWELLING.


W

 

[smaller]

Smaller,
I'm surprised at you.

God is everywhere.
That's different from the Holy Spirit INDWELLING.

W

And I would consider "dividing" the Holy Spirit from God to be a basic foul of legitimate theology.

Hebrews 4:13
Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

And, fwiw, being saved by "lifestyle" is found nowhere in the scriptures either. No one's lifestyle made them sinless or eradicated the presence of evil from the heart. Romans 7:17-21.

 

[GodsGrace]

And I would consider "dividing" the Holy Spirit from God to be a basic foul of legitimate theology.

Hebrews 4:13
Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

And, fwiw, being saved by "lifestyle" is found nowhere in the scriptures either. No one's lifestyle made them sinless or eradicated the presence of evil from the heart. Romans 7:17-21.

I'm NOT dividing the Holy Spirit from God. The Holy Spirit IS God.

It's the INDWELLING that makes the difference.
You can KNOW about Jesus, that doesn't mean He lives IN you.

The reply to lifestyle would be lengthy and would be in conjunction with what I posted above in no. 772.

Jesus ABSOLUTELY came to change our lifestyle.
See Mathew 5.

He said if we believe we'll see the Kingdom of God.
What do you suppose the K of G is anyway?

It's people living how God would want them to live. Isn't that a lifestyle?


Wondering

 

[JohnDB]

Cool down time.

Time to take a breath. Collect your thoughts and make your replies calm, cool and complete.

 

[JohnDB]

OK... everyone keep calm and collected and let's see if we can discuss this logically with pointing fingers or casting aspersions.

 

[GodsGrace]

Your conclusion about what I believe are absurd. I'm NO universalist. Why would anyone conclude from what I said that "God saves everyone in Jesus Christ"?? Preposterous.

Consider 1 Cor 1:21 NASB - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

That is what I believe. How in the world would anyone come to the ridiculous conclusion that I am a universalist?

Your previous post claimed that I post some silly things. I think your claim about what I believe is worse than silly.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood FreeGrace.
But you yourself have repeated what you stated AGAIN up above.
Here it is:
"Why would anyone conclude from what I said that "God saves everyone in Jesus Christ"??

You're saying that God saves everyone is Jesus Christ. God saves EVERYONE in Jesus Christ.

You see. Words mean something to me. I pay attention to words. It's an important thing to do.

For instance, you have a different understanding of FALLEN AWAY or FALLING AWAY than I do.
To me this means LEAVING THE FAITH and return to unbelief.

Falling Away is a really simple concept. Here's some scripture that shows that IT IS POSSIBLE to fall away even after one has believed.

1 Timothy 4:1 ESV /
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons.

Hebrews 6:4-6 ESV /
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

Revelation 2:4-5 ESV /
But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

Hebrews 3:12-19 ESV /
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. As it is said, “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? ...

THIS ONE SHOULD BE NOTED:

Romans 11:19-22 ESV /
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

Matthew 24:10-13 ESV /
And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

James 1:12 ESV /
Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.

James 5:19-20 ESV / 29
My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

HERE PAUL SAYS THAT HE HIMSELF MAY BE DISQUALIFIED!

1 Corinthians 9:27 ESV /
But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.



There are many more FreeGrace. These should be sufficient to show that we are exhorted by Paul and Jesus to remain in the faith and CONTINUE to love and serve God.



Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

At least, is there a post # where I could review it, since it seems I won't be getting a review from your posts.

Thank you, because I'm not interested in assumptions, guess work, or what have you. My interest is in what the Word of God SAYS.

How is that funny?

Yes, that is why I said what I said.

Why wouldn't I? Do you know believe the Trinity is 3 persons in One?

How should I know what you know? I do recall that you are fond of assumptions. But I make no assumptions.

Don't post so quick. While this post was being created, my answer was as well being created.

Give a guy a bit of time, ok?

Oh my.
You missed the post where I was explaining about receiving the seal?
It's post no. 751.

If your interest is in what the word of God says, I do hope you'll reconsider your position.

Wondering

 

[FreeGrace]

You mean like how believers won't ever take the mark of the beast? Surely there must be an answer to that question since it is supposedly truth.

How is it 'true' that believers will take the mark? Is there Scripture that says so?

Did you forget? I said it's just as easy for God to remove his Spirit from a person as it was putting him in there.

No, it's not "that easy". In fact, it's IMPOSSIBLE. Why? Because the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a gift of God: Acts 1:4, 2:38, 8:20, 10:45.

And, sorry to have to repeat myself, but the gifts of God are IRREVOCABLE from Rom 11:29, and the Holy Spirit is a gift of God.

So, it's IMPOSSIBLE for God to remove the Holy Spirit from anyone who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

There is nothing irreversible about it as if we were born from some kind of womb somewhere.

The Bible uses the word IRREVOCABLE. But IRREVERSIBLE also works just fine.

God can just as easily blow out of a person as he did blow into them.

No. Impossible and irrevocable and irreversible. As just shown.

There is no new distinct entity that gets birthed when we get the Holy Spirit.

So, the words "new birth" doesn't mean anything specific? I beg to differ. When Adam sinned, he DID die immediately, but it wasn't a physical death. It was a spiritual death. That means his spirit died. And all persons are born physically alive but spiritually dead. Until they believe and are born AGAIN spiritually.

So, the "distinct entity" that gets born AGAIN is the human spirit. That's what makes us a new creation, per 2 Cor 5:17.

Our character gets changed--that's how we are born again.

What gets born AGAIN is our dead human spirit. It becomes alive. It's called the NEW birth. And it's where the Holy Spirit resides. Where does the Holy Spirit reside in your theology?

To try to use the analogy of an actual birth from the womb to insist you can't be un-born is to not understand what the new birth actually is.

It's a perfect analogy to the spiritual birth. Just as one cannot be unborn physically, so one cannot be unborn spiritually.

But of course, surely if what you say is true there is an answer of some kind of womb to back up what you're saying, right? I don't recall coming out of a womb when I was born again. But I do recall the Holy Spirit coming into me! That's for sure.

The spiritual new birth has NOTHING to do with any womb.

Your opinion as to the interpretation is easily trumped by God's clear and plain warning in Revelation 22:19 NASB that He will take away a person's part in the City where the river and tree of life are for the reason he says

Those who understand the "part IN the city" as a reference to eternal rewards, my interpretation isn't at all trumped by the warning. In fact, it supports my interpretation.

Why did you isolate it away from the rest of the counsel of scripture I quoted with it that shows that to not be in the city is to have your part in the lake of fire? That's not right, or fair to do.

I didn't isolate anything from anything. Sorry for your misunderstanding.