Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

[JLB]

There are topics that are not allowed to be discussed here. You should know that well enough.

This thread is a discussion about: "Is it possible for a Christian to lose their salvation". That's what we are discussing.

Obviously you agree that a Christian can lose their salvation, you just haven't posted any scriptures to support your belief.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Christians are judged for their works -- good or bad -- after they have been saved. Some works are of enduring value while others are not. Rewards are given accordingly.

Yes, here is an example.

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:41-46

Some will be rewarded with eternal life, others will be rewarded with the everlasting fires of hell.

who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8


JLB

 

[smaller]

This thread is a discussion about: "Is it possible for a Christian to lose their salvation". That's what we are discussing.

Obviously you agree that a Christian can lose their salvation, you just haven't posted any scriptures to support your belief.

JLB

Where and when did I ever say that? I've posted here for 12 years and never once said such a thing. Only the opposite. Those who call upon Jesus to save them shall be saved by Jesus.

We ARE attributed faith from Jesus. It is not our own faith.

1 Thessalonians 5:24
Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

2 Timothy 2:13
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

 

[JLB]

Where and when did I ever say that? I've posted here for 12 years and never once said such a thing. Only the opposite. Those who call upon Jesus to save them shall be saved by Jesus.

We ARE attributed faith from Jesus. It is not our own faith.

1 Thessalonians 5:24
Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

2 Timothy 2:13
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

To be honest, most of the time, I can't tell what you believe or what you are trying to say.

This post here is more clear, as to your position.

Ok, so you believe in OSAS.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Jesus encourages us to remain in Him.

There will be some who come to be in Him, but don't remain in Him, in which they end up being gathered up and thrown into the fire and burned.

In Him for awhile, then they end up in the fire and are burned.

I myself don't want to be in Him, for a while then wind up in the fire and burned, so I refuse to ignore what He is saying here.

I myself want to remain in Him to the end, and for all eternity.

He gave us Apostles and Teachers and Pastors, to teach us about these things, in the bible, and to encourage us and warn us, to continue in the faith, to continue to believe, and to not associate with ungodly people, in ungodly places.

This warning is all throughout the New Testament writings, and should be heeded by all.

We also know that God did in fact, send the angels to hell, who were disobedient during the days of Noah.

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah... 2 Peter 2:4-5

That should be warning enough, for anyone who is serious about enduring to the end of their life, and remaining in Christ.



JLB

 

[smaller]

Christians are judged for their works -- good or bad -- after they have been saved. Some works are of enduring value while others are not. Rewards are given accordingly. But the Christian's salvation is never in question, because eternal life is a gift received by faith (Rom 6:23).

Worthless works of believers get the fire of judgment, to eliminate them. Those who have called upon Jesus to save them, however misguided after that call, shall be saved.

1 Cor. 3:
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

When anyone calls upon Jesus to save them, their foundation is set, and they are likewise set with Him.

Paul deploys "works" in the form of allegory: gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble

These have zero to do with physical construction materials. If people are not familiar with allegory/parable/similitude/methphor and the methods in scripture (yes, there are methods spelled out) that are laid out to understand them they will always have a more difficult time with the scriptures. In the scriptures there is gold as a physical matter and there is gold as Gods Word. Two forms of gold/Gold. That's also why Paul stipulates gold first in the Order.

Zechariah 13:9
And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

1 Peter 1:7
That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Proverbs 8:19
My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.

Proverbs 22:1
A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold.

Proverbs 8:10
Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.

Proverbs 16:16
How much better is it to get wisdom than gold! and to get understanding rather to be chosen than silver!

Revelation 3:18
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire,

 

[smaller]

To be honest, most of the time, I can't tell what you believe or what you are trying to say.

This post here is more clear, as to your position.

Ok, so you believe in OSAS.

The understanding I've received from the Word is this:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

If you note this, it is identical to the principle of Mark 4:15. There are TWO parties in one lump of flesh. In Mark 4:15, this would be the person and Satan who enters their hearts to do his stuff. This same/identical principal is shown with Paul above and in other places with Paul.

Only ONE of the parties in the lump shall be saved. The other, damned to eternal hell.

You can cite all the torment and torture upon the wrong party all the day long, and I will look to the other party every time and accept those facts as true and NOT detrimental to the believers.

Get accurate accounting and the books balance just FINE.

God has set some blockades in the way however. No liar will understand His Word, even though it is right in front of their eyes.

 

[JLB]

Worthless works of believers get the fire of judgment, to eliminate them. Those who have called upon Jesus to save them, however misguided after that call, shall be saved.

1 Cor. 3:
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Unfortunately, for your OSAS doctrine, the work that is burned are people.

9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building.

The "work" is people, God's building.

Paul says if he uses man's wisdom. and man's ways [hay, wood, and stubble] to build, then the people who he is building into God's temple will not endure the testing by fire.

Paul says he himself, the one who is building will be saved, but the person who he has been entrusted with by God, to build with Christ, "gold silver, and precious things", will be burned up, and Paul will suffer loss of reward.

What gets burned up is the work, and the work is people.


JLB

 

[JLB]

The understanding I've received from the Word is this:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

That was unique to Paul, and was given to him, because of the abundance of His revelations.

This is not so with other people.

Example:

19 having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, 20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme. 1 Timothy 1:19-20

Paul had the authority to deliver these two over to Satan... Satan was not, "in their flesh", but rather these were turned over to him, at Paul's command, that they would learn not to blaspheme.

again

deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1 Corinthians 5:5

This person had to be delivered to Satan, for the destruction of his flesh.

Satan was not already in his flesh, but had to be delivered to him.


Paul said, a messenger of Satan, not Satan himself, but a messenger of Satan, which was a person, who was sent with a message to undermine the work Paul was doing as he raised up churches.

This was a person who was from Jerusalem and sent to try and bring Paul's gentile churches under the law of Moses.

This messenger was a "thorn in Paul's flesh", which is an idiom used to describe a "constant irritation".

Paul had to continually correct these Gentiles as to the law, and circumcision, in his letters.


Again, this was unique to Paul, because of the abundance of his revelations, and is not the case with all Christians.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Only ONE of the parties in the lump shall be saved. The other, damned to eternal hell.

You can cite all the torment and torture upon the wrong party all the day long, and I will look to the other party every time and accept those facts as true and NOT detrimental to the believers.

By "party" are you referring to, one part of the Christian, "the body", will go to hell, and the other part, the "spirit and soul", will be saved?

Is that what you mean by "party"?


JLB

 

[smaller]

That was unique to Paul, and was given to him, because of the abundance of His revelations.

This is not so with other people.

I'd suggest that 1 John 3:8 proves otherwise.

So until we get on the same accounting page you are going to continue to miss the other party. And there are "spiritual reasons" for why that happens and why believers can't see it.

First they have to be honest about their own sins in relation to the DEVIL. But most can not go there because they are BLINDED to this fact by that bad actor. So, unless and until God in Christ Himself calls them out of it, and INTO honesty, such will not and can not see it.

 

[JLB]

If you note this, it is identical to the principle of Mark 4:15. There are TWO parties in one lump of flesh. In Mark 4:15, this would be the person and Satan who enters their hearts to do his stuff. This same/identical principal is shown with Paul above and in other places with Paul.

Only ONE of the parties in the lump shall be saved. The other, damned to eternal hell.

15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. Mark 4:15

These folks by the wayside were not saved, as they heard, but Satan steals the word out of their heart.

Luke says it this way -

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

These folks heard, but did not believe.

Which part of them do you claim was saved, when Jesus Himself said... lest they should believe, meaning the did not believe, and consequently they were not saved.

Here it is from the Message -

This story is about some of those people. The seed is the Word of God. The seeds on the road are those who hear the Word, but no sooner do they hear it than the Devil snatches it from them so they won’t believe and be saved. Luke 8:11-12


Here it is from the Living Bible -

The hard path where some seed fell represents the hard hearts of those who hear the words of God, but then the devil comes and steals the words away and prevents people from believing and being saved. Luke 8:12


JLB

 

[smaller]

By "party" are you referring to, one part of the Christian, "the body", will go to hell, and the other part, the "spirit and soul", will be saved?

Is that what you mean by "party"?

JLB

See my post #130. Until accurate honest accounting comes to the book, believers will not see what is being discussed. So you and I are doing a live demonstration of this current reality.

Mark 4:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

It is a FULFILLMENT of the scriptures, that the "other parties" will NOT hear. And this fulfills the Word of God on that side of the ledgers.

 

[smaller]

15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. Mark 4:15

These folks by the wayside were not saved, as they heard, but Satan steals the word out of their heart.

Well, at least you appear to have gotten to the point where you see people and the thief in the same lump of flesh.

When any believer gets to Mark 4:15, there will ALWAYS come a voice into their head that says: "This does not happen to you because you are a believer."

And that is the voice of the thief, stealing the Word from that person.

Yes, this DOES happen to everyone, particularly believers. And that is where the conversation will end for every believer and every reader, because they have REJECTED GOD'S WORDS as being applicable to THEM. And this is the work of the THIEF 'in their own heart.'

 

[JLB]

I'd suggest that 1 John 3:8 proves otherwise.

So until we get on the same accounting page you are going to continue to miss the other party. And there are "spiritual reasons" for why that happens and why believers can't see it.

First they have to be honest about their own sins in relation to the DEVIL. But most can not go there because they are BLINDED to this fact by that bad actor. So, unless and until God in Christ Himself calls them out of it, and INTO honesty, such will not and can not see it.

He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8

People who [continually] sin, are of the Devil.

He who sins, plural; ie - a continual process of sinning.

The King James says -

He that committeth sin is of the devil; The person that is committed to sin, as to practice sin.

The strongs -

• collectively, the complex or aggregate of sins committed either by a single person or by many

It is the responsibility of the person, to "not let sin reign" in there body.

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12


You are trying to blame everything on the devil, to try and avoid the responsibility of dealing with the sin that dwells in our flesh.

It seems, you believe that; Satan is in everyone's flesh, and he will be destroyed along with the mortal body, but everyone will be saved.

Is that what you are teaching us?



JLB

 

[smaller]

Is that what you are teaching us?
JLB

John the Apostle teach US about our own SIN in 1 John 3:8

I accept his statement of fact as being a fact.

 

[JLB]

See my post #130. Until accurate honest accounting comes to the book, believers will not see what is being discussed. So you and I are doing a live demonstration of this current reality.

Mark 4:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

It is a FULFILLMENT of the scriptures, that the "other parties" will NOT hear. And this fulfills the Word of God on that side of the ledgers.

Ok, so now it's Mark 4:12?

Your post says Mark 4:15.

Well, at least you appear to have gotten to the point where you see people and the thief in the same lump of flesh.

When any believer gets to Mark 4:15, there will ALWAYS come a voice into their head that says: "This does not happen to you because you are a believer."

And that is the voice of the thief, stealing the Word from that person.

Yes, this DOES happen to everyone, particularly believers. And that is where the conversation will end for every believer and every reader, because they have REJECTED GOD'S WORDS as being applicable to THEM. And this is the work of the THIEF 'in their own heart.'

Here is what Mark 4:15 says -

And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Yes, this DOES happen to everyone, particularly believers. And that is where the conversation will end for every believer and every reader, because they have REJECTED GOD'S WORDS as being applicable to THEM. And this is the work of the THIEF 'in their own heart.'

How can a person who hears the Gospel, and does not believe, be saved.

You used mark 4:15 to prove that the person would be saved.

Here is your quote -

If you note this, it is identical to the principle of Mark 4:15. There are TWO parties in one lump of flesh. In Mark 4:15, this would be the person and Satan who enters their hearts to do his stuff. This same/identical principal is shown with Paul above and in other places with Paul.

Only ONE of the parties in the lump shall be saved. The other, damned to eternal hell.

In Mark 4:15, the two parties are: the person hearing the Gospel, and Satan.

Neither of these two "parties" are saved.

Not Satan, and Not the person who hears and does not believe.

Neither one are saved.


JLB

 

[JLB]

John the Apostle teach US about our own SIN in 1 John 3:8

I accept his statement of fact as being a fact.

People of the Devil, are not saved.

Accept that fact.


JLB

 

[smaller]

People of the Devil, are not saved.

Accept that fact.

JLB

I'm trying to be patient with you cause I know there is a child of God somewhere in there who might get the picture someday.

1 John 1:
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

We are forgiven. The devil isn't.

 

[smaller]

Ok, so now it's Mark 4:12?

Your post says Mark 4:15.

Every last jot and tittle of the Word applies to every last one of us, and is meant for LIFE, which will be the outcome.

Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4

The moment anyone says otherwise, they have been stolen from, internally.

 

[JLB]

Every last jot and tittle of the Word applies to every last one of us, and is meant for LIFE, which will be the outcome.

Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4

The moment anyone says otherwise, they have been stolen from, internally.

By quoting a scripture reference, with no scripture, and making a :"vague" statement, your post's are growing more and more unintelligible, as no one knows what your point is.

Please post the actual scripture and make a reference to what the words of the scripture teach.

I'm trying to be patient with you cause I know there is a child of God somewhere in there who might get the picture someday.

1 John 1:
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

We are forgiven. The devil isn't.

We are only forgiven if we are in Christ, and we confess our sins to Him.

People that practice a lifestyle of sinful behavior, with no repentance or confession of wrong doing, and continue in a sinful lifestyle will not be saved, and will not inherit the kingdom of God.

What you have tried to teach is the person will be saved, and the devil won't be saved.

This is not found in scripture as I have shown you from your "Mark 4:15" reference.

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12


JLB