Is It Possible to be Free of Sin?

[JLB]

Not sure if this is semantics. The actions of Noah proved his faith. After Noah heard God and believed His promise, he did not have an option to obey or not. If he didn't obey, then that's proof he didn't believe. He did obey, which proved he did believe.

Yes believe means obelieve.


Unbelief is Disobedience




JLB

 

[JLB]

So then, I contend that Noah's righteous action was a result of God's work.

Noah did the work of building the Ark.

Noah walked in the obedience of faith.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Case in point: Cain heard God speak, but didn't believe, therefore didn't obey. Abel believed God, therefore he was commended. We can see this clearly in Heb. 11.
TD

By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.
Hebrews 11:4


Actually there is a lot going on here that could be discussed about the condition of Cain’s heart.


Jesus said -

Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
Matthew 5;23-24


But I agree.

Abel brought of the firstborn and of the fat.

The scriptures indicate something specific here about Abel’s offering that we don’t see with Cain.


I believe Cain had issues against his brother, even before The Lord rejected Cain and his offering.


This passage requires a little more digging and isn’t as clear as the case of Noah or Abraham.



However, I think you and I agree for the most part.



Bless you brother.




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Teaching is one thing, and learning is another. What you assert, you are teaching, regardless of whether or not another is willing to learn.

I hope we don't get tangled up in semantics.

No chance! I hate debating a word.


No, it doesn't go without saying. In my observation and experience, many Christians are confused because they are taught the do's and don'ts without the grace that comes only from God. They lack the faith in God's power to deliver them because they are not taught to direct their faith to God alone. They keep burdening themselves with perfectionism and many of them stumble (and some even forsake the faith) because they don't know how to appropriate the power of God by faith. Ultimately, they fail to enter sabbath rest - Heb. 4:10.

We were discussing cooperation here...I said cooperation is an outflow of faith. I see some of what you're describing above in the catholic church. People are told to love one another and help each other and it's all very true...but they're never told HOW...at least not at Mass....if you go to bible studies then it IS explained...I find this rather unfortunate and have not hesitated to tell some priest friends of mine. They tell me the Mass is not a classroom.

But this does not take away what we're discussing. I believe in synergism...maybe you don't. A relationship requires two persons...not one doing everything.

Hebrews 4:10
. 10For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

Hebrews 4 is speaking about how we're to obey God to reach our rest...we do not have rest now. " Let us be diligent to enter that rest".

Diligent: To show a good conscience in doing one's work.

Then what do you do with Phil 4:13 "for God is at work in us, to will and to work for His good pleasure"?

No problem. This does not mean that God does everything for us....but that He helps us...just as I said in my previous post.

Philippians 4:13
13I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.
You have the wrong verse...however it means the same thing.

God is at work in us to have the ability to do what He desires us to do. In the verse just above, it says we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
Philippins 2:13

This is a common confusion. God works by spiritual influence. It is not determinism, so don't misunderstand what I'm saying. If we partake of divine nature, then we are relying on God to work His works in us - John 3:21 "But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

Agreed. God works by spiritual INFLUENCE.
This means we're still free to decide whether or not to obey... I just dislike saying that it is God doing the work because then we have to blame HIM when we sin....
Can't we say it's the Holy Spirit working in us to be able to obey? Or at least to make us WANT to obey...

This cannot be done without the right kind of faith, which requires understanding of the gospel. Obviously, where we lack in that faith, we will fail, IOW commit sin. That would be because we weren't "cooperating" with God by faith in His guidance/influence.

So you agree that we do have to cooperate?
Maybe you call it something else...
I don't know what you mean by the right kind faith...


You don't think the almighty God can't make you listen? That is what Holy Spirit conviction is. The root part of the term conviction means conquering. It literally means "with conquering" - con-vict. If the voice of God is like the thunder, then the Spirit is a very powerful influence to make us fear God.

But if I fear God with no hope in His love, then I will be afraid of Him and will run away. But if I have hope in God's love through Christ, then I will run toward Him.
Faith in Christ makes the difference. It was the difference between Cain and Abel.

God can make us listen...
I'm saying we're free to HEAR or not.
I'm not sure why you're speaking about fearing God...
Not worth going back to check....I don't think anyone here fears Him...He's Abba.


A legalist is someone who teaches the law of God but fails to teach the gospel that empowers the believer (my def). Here is the dictionary def:
strict adherence, or the principle of strict adherence, to law or prescription, especially to the letter rather than the spirit.
Theology:

1. the doctrine that salvation is gained through good works.
2. the judging of conduct in terms of adherence to precise laws.

I don't agree with the above.
But I'm called a legalist anyway....because I state it's necessary to obey God. Many agree, of course.

Actually, James doesn't say that it is non-existent, and that's not a Biblical definition of the term "dead". For example "dead in transgressions and sins" doesn't mean non-existent. It means not connected to the source of eternal life, to be exact. When James says "faith without works is dead," he is talking about:

1. The kind of faith a person has that doesn't result in eternal life (salvation)
2. The kind of faith that results in failing to adhere to Christ's commands

After all, did he not say "can that faith save him" (referring to someone having faith without works)? He is acknowledging that such a person with a claim to faith in Christ actually does have a faith he claims, therefore it is not non-existent. The faith he is talking about "without works" is not a kind of faith that "saves." This is why we use the term "saving faith" to specify the kind of faith we should be practicing as a Christian. A person who claims to have faith in Christ, but doesn't do what He commanded is a person who only has a theory, and has no way of knowing where he will end up.

In addition, the "works" that James is talking about is a certain kind of works. Obviously, everyone does some kind of works. So, when James says "works" in this case, he is speaking specifically of the kind of works that Jesus taught us to do, namely to love our neighbor in the same way that God does, unconditionally (Mat. 5:44-45). In times of trial and tribulation, this cannot be done without the practice of the saving kind of faith in Christ.

We have to understand where James is coming from, and who he is talking to in this part of his epistle. In the 1st Century, some Gnostics crept into some of the churches, and part of their belief system was purely theoretical - that is, they claimed they could be saved by a kind of faith without Christian works. So for them, loving their neighbor was an option that they could do or not do according to their convenience. The bottom line is, their faith fell short of the gospel message, and that's what James Ch. 2 is about. Their faith wasn't of the kind that measured up to the teaching of Christ and the apostles.
TD

Will pick up on James tomorrow. It's almost midnight here.
Good night.

click to expand.

 

[tdidymas]

God is at work in us to have the ability to do what He desires us to do. In the verse just above, it says we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

This is the flow of the conversation:
you said:

The problem I have with what you've said is that God is not doing the work in us. I hear this all the time and I don't know where that idea has come from.

I said: "Then what do you do with Phil 4:13?" - (yes, actually I meant 2:13).
You said

No problem. This does not mean that God does everything for us....but that He helps us...just as I said in my previous post.

Yet the verse clearly says "God is at work in us..." but you seem to be in disagreement, since you said God is NOT doing the work in us.
The verse also does not say that God works in us to "have the ability..." but it actually says "at work in us to will and do..."

The way I read this is that God is working to strongly influence our will, IOW to cause our will to conform to His. Our will is not neutral, never was and never will be. Our will is influenced by many things, and our choices are based on those influences. Since the fall the scripture declares we were in bondage to sin, since Jesus said "the one who sins is a slave to sin." Paul declares that before we were in Christ we were slaves to sin, but in Christ we are slaves to righteousness. This is very strong language against any idea that we have control of our destiny due to some neutrality or "freedom" of will.

Therefore, however righteous I have become I attribute solely to the grace of God, and not any effort on my part in cooperating. To me, cooperation simply means surrender to the one more powerful than I. Therefore I can only reject the idea of synergism, since I don't see any truth in it from both a Biblical standpoint or from my personal experience. I have nothing to boast about. I can't plan to stand before God and say "I chose Jesus," since Jesus said to His disciples, "you did not choose me, but I chose you..."

If you can't see what I'm saying, then perhaps our paths diverge?

Agreed. God works by spiritual INFLUENCE.
This means we're still free to decide whether or not to obey... I just dislike saying that it is God doing the work because then we have to blame HIM when we sin....
Can't we say it's the Holy Spirit working in us to be able to obey? Or at least to make us WANT to obey...

Just because we can attribute our righteous acts to God, doesn't automatically mean we have to blame Him for the sins we commit. It's apples and oranges. When we sin, we have forgotten that we were cleansed from it - 2 Pet. 1:9. More likely it is because we are still immature and haven't learned to trust God in that situation. Being purged from sin doesn't mean we're perfect.

Many people get confused between the natural dimension and the spiritual dimension. God is working in the spiritual dimension. His influence is a strong motivator for us to please Him. You said "Or at least to make us WANT to obey..." - isn't this the whole thing? Isn't the Holy Spirit God? If the Holy Spirit is working in us, then can't we also say that God is working in us? If He makes us WANT to obey, then don't we then obey because we WANT to? If the Spirit made us WANT to obey, then can't we say that God made us do it, simply because we did what we WANTed to do? Don't people do what they WANT to do?

I don't know what you mean by the right kind faith...

Saving faith, as I explained from James. It is faith of the heart - Rom. 10:9, not of the mind only. It is spiritual, not natural - 1 Cor. 2:14.

God can make us listen...
I'm saying we're free to HEAR or not.
I'm not sure why you're speaking about fearing God...
Not worth going back to check....I don't think anyone here fears Him...He's Abba.

If God gave us ears to hear, we can hear.
If you don't have a healthy fear of God, then maybe it's why you sin, perhaps?
Sometimes we sin because we lack faith, and such lack is sin itself.

Jesus said "fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in gehenna"
Heb. 10:31 "It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
Both OT and NT speak of fearing God, with respect and love, knowing God's goodness and kindness.
Heb. 12 - God also chastises us in love so that we can share in His holiness. It is part of the work He does.

TD[/quote]

 

[Nathan12]

In another thread Not_Now.Soon asked:
Can anyone really be free of sin? And if so how?

To be really (totally) free of sin would require that the indwelling sin nature ("the old man") be totally eradicated. But that will only happen at the Resurrection/Rapture.

Is it possible to keep from sinning?

Absolutely.

If so, how.

By the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit. As Scripture says "Sin shall not have dominion over you".

What if we have difficulty with a particular sin?

We are told to mortify or crucify the flesh (the sin nature). Therefore God can empower any genuine Christian to overcome any sin.

Are we lost forever?

Sin affects our fellowship with God. See the first epistle of John. But our salvation is entirely by grace through faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption.

 

[GodsGrace]

To be really (totally) free of sin would require that the indwelling sin nature ("the old man") be totally eradicated. But that will only happen at the Resurrection/Rapture.

Absolutely.

By the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit. As Scripture says "Sin shall not have dominion over you".

We are told to mortify or crucify the flesh (the sin nature). Therefore God can empower any genuine Christian to overcome any sin.

Sin affects our fellowship with God. See the first epistle of John. But our salvation is entirely by grace through faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption.

What's the difference between the blue paragraph and the green paragraph?

The blue says this:
To be really (totally) free of sin would require that the indwelling sin nature ("the old man") be totally eradicated. But that will only happen at the Resurrection/Rapture.

The green says this:
We are told to mortify or crucify the flesh (the sin nature). Therefore God can empower any genuine Christian to overcome any sin.

The blue I can agree with. It seems to be saying that we will continue to sin somewhat since the sin nature is not eradicated. The green seems to say that any sin can be overcome.

Isn't this a conflict?

 

[Nathan12]

The blue I can agree with. It seems to be saying that we will continue to sin somewhat since the sin nature is not eradicated. The green seems to say that any sin can be overcome.

Isn't this a conflict?

There's no conflict if we recognize two things (a) "the flesh" or "the old man" has not been eradicated but can be metaphorically crucified or mortified (put to death) by self-denial and (b) sin shall not have dominion over the child of God since the Holy Spirit can make him or her an overcomer under any and all circumstances, including martyrdom.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is the flow of the conversation:
you said:
I said: "Then what do you do with Phil 4:13?" - (yes, actually I meant 2:13).
You said

Yet the verse clearly says "God is at work in us..." but you seem to be in disagreement, since you said God is NOT doing the work in us.
The verse also does not say that God works in us to "have the ability..." but it actually says "at work in us to will and do..."
No! I agree that God is at work in us....what I'm saying is that I don't agree that God does everything for us. I hear some say that God begins and finishes everything for us...that our works are not necessary...some say that we SIN by saying that we do works for God because He doesn't need anything from us. THIS is what I object to.

God being at work in us and doing everything for us is two different ideas. Of course God is at work in us...how else could we be transformed and grow in our faith...

I went back and checked for fear I might have mis-spoken....No, I didn't. I said God works IN US.

The way I read this is that God is working to strongly influence our will, IOW to cause our will to conform to His. Our will is not neutral, never was and never will be. Our will is influenced by many things, and our choices are based on those influences. Since the fall the scripture declares we were in bondage to sin, since Jesus said "the one who sins is a slave to sin." Paul declares that before we were in Christ we were slaves to sin, but in Christ we are slaves to righteousness. This is very strong language against any idea that we have control of our destiny due to some neutrality or "freedom" of will.

I agree with the above but the last sentence sound calvinistic to me. I believe in libertarian free will. Otherwise I agree with everything you said.

Therefore, however righteous I have become I attribute solely to the grace of God, and not any effort on my part in cooperating. To me, cooperation simply means surrender to the one more powerful than I. Therefore I can only reject the idea of synergism, since I don't see any truth in it from both a Biblical standpoint or from my personal experience. I have nothing to boast about. I can't plan to stand before God and say "I chose Jesus," since Jesus said to His disciples, "you did not choose me, but I chose you..."

Jesus said "I chose you" to the Apostles.
I think I understand you better now....you are calvinist, aren't you? I also believe that our doing God's will is done with the help of His grace, or by His grace. We can do nothing without God's grace. However, doing God's will does require some effort from us even though Jesus did say that His commandments are easy. 1 John 5:2-4
As to His commandments there are many....just go through the book of Mathew...I could post a long list if you wish to see it.

I do believe in synergism. As I've said before....God does not save us all on His own....AFTER salvation....we do need to cooperate with Him....these would be all the verses on works/deeds/obedience. Long list of those too, if we want to get into details.

John 14:15
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Acts 5:29
But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men.

1 Peter 1:14
As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance,

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

Luke 6:46
“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?


If you can't see what I'm saying, then perhaps our paths diverge?

I believe are paths may diverge.
God is sovereign to me too.
He can do whatever He wants to do.
But what He wants to do is to love His creation and save it from eternal torment.
John 3:16
WHOEVER believes in the Son,,,will be saved...it is OUR choice to believe after we've heard the message of God and He has revealed Himself to us. I DO have something to do with my salvation...I DO have free will...libertarian free will.


Just because we can attribute our righteous acts to God, doesn't automatically mean we have to blame Him for the sins we commit. It's apples and oranges. When we sin, we have forgotten that we were cleansed from it - 2 Pet. 1:9. More likely it is because we are still immature and haven't learned to trust God in that situation. Being purged from sin doesn't mean we're perfect.

IF, as some say, GOD DOES EVERYTHING FOR US...it means He FAILED when we sin. It's very simple. Either WE make our own decision as to whether to obey Him or not in each circumstance - in which case He is not responsible...

Or
IF God does everything for us, then HE is responsible when we sin since we do not have a choice.

Many people get confused between the natural dimension and the spiritual dimension. God is working in the spiritual dimension. His influence is a strong motivator for us to please Him. You said "Or at least to make us WANT to obey..." - isn't this the whole thing? Isn't the Holy Spirit God? If the Holy Spirit is working in us, then can't we also say that God is working in us? If He makes us WANT to obey, then don't we then obey because we WANT to? If the Spirit made us WANT to obey, then can't we say that God made us do it, simply because we did what we WANTed to do? Don't people do what they WANT to do?

No T...you're turning around what I could have agreed with but made it into compatible free will. I don't agree with compatible free will....I'm not a robot, as they say.


Saving faith, as I explained from James. It is faith of the heart - Rom. 10:9, not of the mind only. It is spiritual, not natural - 1 Cor. 2:14.

Agreed.

If God gave us ears to hear, we can hear.
If you don't have a healthy fear of God, then maybe it's why you sin, perhaps?
Sometimes we sin because we lack faith, and such lack is sin itself.

How could lacking faith be a sin if it's God that's doing it all?
Sometimes I'm speaking to a clavinist that does not want to say it and he'll beat around the bush. It's no problem if you are...it would just make the conversation go smoother.

Jesus said "fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in gehenna"
Heb. 10:31 "It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
Both OT and NT speak of fearing God, with respect and love, knowing God's goodness and kindness.
Heb. 12 - God also chastises us in love so that we can share in His holiness. It is part of the work He does.

TD

Agreed.

click to expand

 

[GodsGrace]

There's no conflict if we recognize two things (a) "the flesh" or "the old man" has not been eradicated but can be metaphorically crucified or mortified (put to death) by self-denial and (b) sin shall not have dominion over the child of God since the Holy Spirit can make him or her an overcomer under any and all circumstances, including martyrdom.

OK, yes. I agree.

We are to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh.
We still have the sin nature but it is put under subjection to the Holy Spirit.
This does not, however, take away our free will to sin when faced with the choice.
Sin does not have DOMINION over us.
With the help of the Holy Spirit we CAN be overcomers

 

[tdidymas]

No! I agree that God is at work in us....what I'm saying is that I don't agree that God does everything for us. I hear some say that God begins and finishes everything for us...that our works are not necessary...some say that we SIN by saying that we do works for God because He doesn't need anything from us. THIS is what I object to.

God being at work in us and doing everything for us is two different ideas. Of course God is at work in us...how else could we be transformed and grow in our faith...

I went back and checked for fear I might have mis-spoken....No, I didn't. I said God works IN US.

I never said God does everything for us (which I take to mean in this context instead of us doing anything). I fear that you are reading something into what I wrote that you heard from somewhere else. I clearly stated that I'm not coming from determinism. That is completely different.

I'm presenting the idea that God is the source and the Master. We are the servants and derive our life and energy from Him. Grace comes from God to us, and is initiated by God. Please don't read anything into what I'm saying.

I believe in libertarian free will.

And what exactly do you mean by "libertarian free will"?

I do believe in synergism. As I've said before....God does not save us all on His own.

Eph. 2:4-5 "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved"
This sounds to me like God saved us without asking our permission. If God is working to will His pleasure, then He changes the disposition of our heart to make us want to obey the gospel. I see no room for synergism in this. I see Eph. 2:8 that salvation, grace, and faith is all the gift of God.

John 3:8 "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
This sounds to me like we have no control over being born again. God's Spirit does what He wills with us, and we are responders. We only produce the sound of the wind, we don't control the wind. We don't even have any idea which way He is going - this is how it is with our spiritual rebirth.

So then, you don't believe you are predestined by God?

IF God does everything for us

I never said that and I'm still not saying it.

No T...you're turning around what I could have agreed with but made it into compatible free will. I don't agree with compatible free will....I'm not a robot, as they say.

Again, you are reading something into what I wrote. I stated clearly that I was not coming from determinism. Furthermore, the robot idea is a straw man argument and always has been. It's a polemic argument as bad as me saying that you teach salvation by works or even that you're steeped in Catholicism. It's nothing but a straw man. We're human beings.

If your definition of "compatible free will" is the same thing as what I read in Wikipedia, then you're coming to a false conclusion. What I said is not that, as much as it is not determinism.

So instead of casting unwarranted accusations, please explain exactly how you are reading "compatible free will" into what I wrote.

How could lacking faith be a sin if it's God that's doing it all?
Sometimes I'm speaking to a clavinist that does not want to say it and he'll beat around the bush. It's no problem if you are...it would just make the conversation go smoother.

Whether I'm a calvinist or not, I don't know, since I haven't read all that much about it. I just try to understand and believe what the Bible says. I ask you to refrain from exercising prejudice that I believe what other "calvinists" believe without asking me. You might discover my understanding of scripture to be different than what you've heard. I once tried to read the Institutes, but it was very hard reading and I stopped after getting through about 10% of it.

Again, it's not about God doing it all. As I explained above, our salvation is all of God's grace, since Paul calls it "free gift." And "free gift" means it requires only that we receive it, which requires no effort from us apart from God, because even our faith in Christ is part of the same free gift of God. In a nutshell, our effort and choices result from God's work in us. This is how I read the apostle Paul. We do certainly have to make an effort toward sanctification and eternal rewards, but that also requires faith that God is working. We can't accomplish anything spiritually on our own. Jesus said "apart from Me you can do nothing." He is speaking spiritual truth.

I do listen to and read from certain teachers like R.C. Sproul, John MacArthur, Martin Luther, Wayne Grudem, and perhaps many others. I highly respect them, although I do not agree with everything they say. I measure everything according to what the Bible says. I try to take everything from the Bible as it is written, in the context it was written in. I try to interpret the scripture in the same way that the writers of scripture understood it - putting myself in their shoes, so to speak. I also am suspicious of modern philosophy and what the culture says. I think those things tend to distort the average person's understanding of the Bible's meaning.
TD

 

[GodsGrace]

I never said God does everything for us (which I take to mean in this context instead of us doing anything). I fear that you are reading something into what I wrote that you heard from somewhere else. I clearly stated that I'm not coming from determinism. That is completely different.

I think I understood from your last post that you were NOT saying that God does it all in the way some mean...I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear to you...I do understand that you do NOT mean that God just does it all.

I'm presenting the idea that God is the source and the Master. We are the servants and derive our life and energy from Him. Grace comes from God to us, and is initiated by God. Please don't read anything into what I'm saying.

I'm trying not to!
I agree with the above and how you worded it...many times it's just language.


And what exactly do you mean by "libertarian free will"?

Libertarian free will is just what most understand to be free will. I have a choice to make....I can make that choice. Usually when speaking biblically, it means a moral choice.

Compatible free will is what Calvinists believe. It's VERY deterministic. It means that God makes you want to want what He wishes. You THINK it's your decision, but really it's God willing you to have HIS desire and to want that. IOW,,, He makes your will totally compatible with His.


Eph. 2:4-5 "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved"
This sounds to me like God saved us without asking our permission. If God is working to will His pleasure, then He changes the disposition of our heart to make us want to obey the gospel. I see no room for synergism in this. I see Eph. 2:8 that salvation, grace, and faith is all the gift of God.

You DO speak like a calvinist...Sorry.
Ephesians 2:4-5 just means that God had a plan to save us and we were sinners. We lived like the world lives...we sinned all the time...we did not know God. By His mercy and kindness He saved us by His grace through the instrument of faith.

But was it without our permission? If so, then this IS determinism. What does determinism mean to you? It means God determines everything with no input from us.

Is there input from us if we want to be saved?
What does John 3:16 teach us?
"......that whosoever believes shall not perish....."
We have to be one of the "whosoevers" if we want to be saved. We have to BELIEVE in Jesus of our own free will.
What you're saying is that God forces us to be saved.

And see what I highlighted in green in your reply....
You perfectly explained compatibilist free will !!
What I just got through explaining up above.

John 3:8 "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
This sounds to me like we have no control over being born again. God's Spirit does what He wills with us, and we are responders. We only produce the sound of the wind, we don't control the wind. We don't even have any idea which way He is going - this is how it is with our spiritual rebirth.

If we have no control over being born again that means God is deciding for us. Again,,,this is determinism. If God's spirit does what it wills with us, and we have no choice...what does this tell you? Do YOU believe in free will? Obviously not.
There is only one other alternative. Calvinism...Sorry.
John 3:8 is not one of the easiest verses to understand....it would have to be a separate conversation. Maybe a new thread? yes...

So then, you don't believe you are predestined by God?

Absolutely not.
God reveals Himself to us ----
Romans 1:19-20

We respond-----
Acts 16:30-31

Predestination is not scriptural...it's found in scripture but not for WHO is to be saved...but HOW we're to be saved.

Again, you are reading something into what I wrote. I stated clearly that I was not coming from determinism. Furthermore, the robot idea is a straw man argument and always has been. It's a polemic argument as bad as me saying that you teach salvation by works or even that you're steeped in Catholicism. It's nothing but a straw man. We're human beings.


You're replying to this comment of mine:
No T...you're turning around what I could have agreed with but made it into compatible free will. I don't agree with compatible free will....I'm not a robot, as they say.

You ARE coming from determinism....you just don't seem to be aware of it. This is not a strawman argument. If God MAKES US want to desire what HE wants (as you explained up above) then that IS compatible free will. And if we have compatible free will then we ARE robots. Have you ever listened to a formal debate about this? Even professors bring up the fact that we're not robots....

If your definition of "compatible free will" is the same thing as what I read in Wikipedia, then you're coming to a false conclusion. What I said is not that, as much as it is not determinism.

I don't know what you read in Wikipedia...they're usually good and I've used them for links to explain detail...however I don't learn from there... Just explain to me how you understand compatible free will.

And have you studied calvinism at all?
Do you know about the basic beliefs....TULIP?

You'd be surprised, I think, at how much you agree with this theology.

So instead of casting unwarranted accusations, please explain exactly how you are reading "compatible free will" into what I wrote.

I'm not accusing you of anything....I'm just talking to you.
I explained about compatible free will....you yourself stated above that God will make us want what He wants...that's exactly what it is.


Whether I'm a calvinist or not, I don't know, since I haven't read all that much about it. I just try to understand and believe what the Bible says. I ask you to refrain from exercising prejudice that I believe what other "calvinists" believe without asking me. You might discover my understanding of scripture to be different than what you've heard. I once tried to read the Institutes, but it was very hard reading and I stopped after getting through about 10% of it.

Don't read the Institutes.
Find out about TULIP and see if you agree with this acronym. There's a lot of information even on the net....
Here is what TULIP stands for....do you agree with each one?

TULIP: 5-Point Calvinism Explained

The five points of Calvinism can be explained using the acronym TULIP. Understand the set of religious principles behind John Calvin's theology.

www.thoughtco.com

Again, it's not about God doing it all. As I explained above, our salvation is all of God's grace, since Paul calls it "free gift." And "free gift" means it requires only that we receive it, which requires no effort from us apart from God, because even our faith in Christ is part of the same free gift of God. In a nutshell, our effort and choices result from God's work in us. This is how I read the apostle Paul. We do certainly have to make an effort toward sanctification and eternal rewards, but that also requires faith that God is working. We can't accomplish anything spiritually on our own. Jesus said "apart from Me you can do nothing." He is speaking spiritual truth.

I agree with the above. Without God's grace we can do nothing. John 15:5

I do listen to and read from certain teachers like R.C. Sproul, John MacArthur, Martin Luther, Wayne Grudem, and perhaps many others. I highly respect them, although I do not agree with everything they say. I measure everything according to what the Bible says. I try to take everything from the Bible as it is written, in the context it was written in. I try to interpret the scripture in the same way that the writers of scripture understood it - putting myself in their shoes, so to speak. I also am suspicious of modern philosophy and what the culture says. I think those things tend to distort the average person's understanding of the Bible's meaning.
TD

I agree about modern theology....in fact, I tend to agree with those that were the first Christians after Jesus ascended.
You have a good method for studying....I also respect many calvinist theologians....John Calvin himself had some really great commentaries....

click to expand

 

[tdidymas]

Compatible free will is what Calvinists believe. It's VERY deterministic. It means that God makes you want to want what He wishes. You THINK it's your decision, but really it's God willing you to have HIS desire and to want that. IOW,,, He makes your will totally compatible with His.

If I began relationship with God at a time when I was a God-hater, then God had to make my will compatible with His in some way. I don't know if your term "totally" is an exaggeration or not, since I don't know what doctrine you have in mind. But if God changes the disposition of our hearts, then God is changing us in a way to make us surrender to His will.

But was it without our permission? If so, then this IS determinism. What does determinism mean to you? It means God determines everything with no input from us.

I'm not sure about the term "determinism," since I have not studied the subject, therefore I'm not going to agree with this statement. I would much rather use the Biblical term "predestined."

It might be that you are exaggerating the point, using typical judgments that people make on the subject, such as "everything" and "no input" etc. The input I had to my salvation was that I was a God-hater, and I had no intention whatsoever to become a Christian. I told people I was a Christian only to keep them off my back. I didn't want the sales pressure of people trying to evangelize me.

But God met me where I was. From my point of view, it was a threat of hell-fire, and a voice from heaven that instilled an urgency of impending doom. I went to my knees trembling and surrendered to the One far more powerful than I. I don't see that I had any choice in the matter. I can't describe what that's like. But the result is that I had a drive inside me to understand God and the nature of my relationship with Him. I had an intense commitment to study the scripture and understand what it meant, especially after seeing that questions I had couldn't be answered by Christians I fellowshiped with.

The long-term result was that I began to see God's special love for me and other Christians. I began to understand what it meant to both love and fear God. The bottom line is that I see myself in the Eph. 2:5 description that Paul makes of spiritual rebirth. It is how I read the term predestined, which seems to match how the dictionary defines it.

This is what I'm talking about when I say "without our permission." If God asked my permission to save me before His divine imposition, I would have rejected the idea (and did many times, since I was one of those many called but not chosen before He interrupted me). Of course, after my heart was changed, and I saw the goodness of God due to Him revealing Himself in powerful ways, I gave "permission" - that is, I was very glad God imposed His will over mine at the time He did so. After God changed my heart through the knowledge of my Savior, then obviously my will became His in that matter, since I surrendered to Him.

My point is, first came God's predestination of me, then came my "free will" choice to serve Him. I see this both in the teaching of the apostles and my own experience.

If we have no control over being born again that means God is deciding for us. Again,,,this is determinism. If God's spirit does what it wills with us, and we have no choice...what does this tell you? Do YOU believe in free will? Obviously not.

That's how you are defining it, not how the Bible defines it. I assert that you are seeing what I wrote through a bias. It seems to me that determinism means that every decision made is determined, at least that's what I have heard. Again, I'm not talking about that. I'm only talking about the decision to be saved by means of the gospel message.

The Bible says that before we were saved, we were blinded by the evil one, could not see the light of the gospel, held captive to do Satan's will, slaves to sin, in bondage to the fleshly nature, not able to understand the things of the Spirit, lovers of darkness and shunning the light, and many other ways of saying we could not and would not be saved unless God intervened. Jesus said "with men it is impossible."

But "with God..." - this means it takes an act of God to save a person. If my will was in bondage to the devil and would by no means obey the gospel, then God has to perform a supernatural act in the spiritual realm, and change something in my heart, such that I am enabled to hear the gospel and believe. It is very obvious to me that God does not do that for every person who hears the preaching. Many people go away from the message as unbelievers. Paul describes this in 1 Cor. 2 and elsewhere. "To the Greek it is foolishness, and to the Jew a stumbling block." Therefore God had to decide to save me in spite of me. He did so by means of the gospel message in conjunction with His divine imposition.

So then, if you are trying to say that your will was free enough to assess spiritual things, namely the gospel message, to judge its goodness, to desire its blessings, and to believe its promises, enough to surrender to God, on your own, without God's help, because you think your will was completely neutral before regeneration, and not in bondage to Satan at the time, then this is where our paths diverge. If this is your stand, then I think you are standing against clear teaching of the Bible. If you judge me as one who doesn't "believe in free will" then so be it.

I liken people who believe in "free will" as I describe above, with evolutionary extrapolators. What people who believe in macroevolution do is that they see some small changes among species or varieties of creatures, and they extrapolate the idea beyond all reason, to conclude that man evolved from a primordial slime. They see no limits or boundaries to their fertile imagination.

In the same way, many people see the minuscule and extremely limited natural ability in humans to make decisions, and extrapolate it beyond all reason to claim that they can break themselves free of bondage to the devil in the spiritual realm, and decide to be born of the Spirit, which is something that only happens by an act of God, according to John 3:8.

Predestination is not scriptural...it's found in scripture but not for WHO is to be saved...but HOW we're to be saved.

Eph 1:4" just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him, in love" - the WHO that God chooses is US. I think you err in your interpretation here. The statement definitely specifies a WHO.

I explained about compatible free will....you yourself stated above that God will make us want what He wants...that's exactly what it is.

But you yourself stated that the Spirit makes us want to obey God. Are you changing your tune now?

Finally, I'm not ready to debate Calvinism right now, as I haven't studied it, and it seems to be very involved. I'm here to discuss what the Bible says, not what Calvinists say.
TD

 

[GodsGrace]

If I began relationship with God at a time when I was a God-hater, then God had to make my will compatible with His in some way. I don't know if your term "totally" is an exaggeration or not, since I don't know what doctrine you have in mind. But if God changes the disposition of our hearts, then God is changing us in a way to make us surrender to His will.

Wow. You have a lot to say and I'm going to have to take this in bits due to time restrictions....Not that I don't have the time...but I'm doing other things too and can't handle this all at once. Please don't answer me till I'm all done or I'll get too much and won't stay on course.

First, I'd like to say that I THINK you're reading the bible on your own and it could be confusing at times. Even Peter said that Paul is difficult to understand...
2 Peter 3:16

A person comes across the word "predestined" and begins to think that maybe God predestined everything. So you could see that as you continue reading....but you have two choices to make:
1. Did God predestine everything as scripture seems to imply and did He save only those persons that He "enlightened", or however you want to say that...

2. or Does God love everyone and wishes that everyone would come to be saved?
John 3:16
1 Timothy 2:4

I explained to you about the above and how Jesus said He would draw all men to Himself in John 12:32.
Here's a question: Do you prefer to believe that God saves only SOME persons,,,based on absolutely nothing but His own will...

or do you prefer to believe that God wishes that everyone would be saved if only they would accept His conditions?

You said that I'm coming here with a predisposition...You're right...I agree with the second choice. God could not be a God of love if He only chooses to save some persons and thus condemns the others to hell --- the very place that you feared.

I also, however, understand Calvinism so maybe this gives me an advantage.....I know both theologies and I know which one I trust....maybe you don't know yet, as you've stated that you don't know calvinism well.

It's important to understand about the grace of God at this point and also about the Holy Spirit.

God sheds His grace on all humanity or it would never be possible for anyone to be saved. It's our reply to that grace that allows us to be real human beings and not just a puppet in His hands. I know you don't like this term, but that's exactly how it would be!

God made us out of love....He wants us to love Him back. Does love have to be free? Of course...otherwise it's not true love. If you can force someone to love you...do they really love you? No! If they freely give you their love, then you can know they really love you and not because you're forcing them to.

Jesus stands at the door and knocks...WE have to open the door...He just knocks.
Revelation 3:20

PART 1 OF 4

 

[GodsGrace]

PART 2 OF 4

The Holy Spirit: Jesus said it would be better for Him to go away so that the Holy Spirit could come to us.
John 16:7
Why? Because we need a helper to make us understand God and to keep us close to God and to help us when temptation comes along. (not that we won't ever sin again).
This Holy Spirit is what you understand to be God changing you....God changes us...this is scriptural...but not without our cooperation and not without our consent.

I don't know if you know about Justification and Sanctification and I hate to bring it up now unless you do.
Our sanctification requires our cooperation because God will not do it all alone, all by Himself, which is what I mean about God not doing it all. He helps us to do what we need to do,,,but it's US doing it. If this were not so,,, every time we sin it would be God making us sin....God does not like sin.

I'm not sure about the term "determinism," since I have not studied the subject, therefore I'm not going to agree with this statement. I would much rather use the Biblical term "predestined."

Determinism just means that God determined exactly everything that would happen from the beginning of time.
Let's not use that term anymore. Let's use the term predestined since that is in the bible.

It might be that you are exaggerating the point, using typical judgments that people make on the subject, such as "everything" and "no input" etc. The input I had to my salvation was that I was a God-hater, and I had no intention whatsoever to become a Christian. I told people I was a Christian only to keep them off my back. I didn't want the sales pressure of people trying to evangelize me.

I understand. I didn't hate God, but He wasn't very real to me. He was far off in the heavens somewhere.

But God met me where I was. From my point of view, it was a threat of hell-fire, and a voice from heaven that instilled an urgency of impending doom. I went to my knees trembling and surrendered to the One far more powerful than I. I don't see that I had any choice in the matter. I can't describe what that's like. But the result is that I had a drive inside me to understand God and the nature of my relationship with Him. I had an intense commitment to study the scripture and understand what it meant, especially after seeing that questions I had couldn't be answered by Christians I fellowshiped with.

Yeah...well...God does know us and uses His own methods to open our ears. It could be that all those do-gooders spoke about hell and not being saved and the Holy Spirit convicted (convinced) you of this...this IS His job, after all.
To make us become aware of God....
And you replied with a YES.
I think your choice could have been to keep hating Him...but only YOU know what you experienced and I have respect for that.

I came to know that satan was real first. And then I reasoned that if satan is real, then God must also be real.
God seemed to speak to my heart and He solved problems for me that I was having at the time by telling me how to handle them...see, if you say this stuff to an unbeliever they think you're a bit whacky.

 

[GodsGrace]

PART 3 OF 4

The long-term result was that I began to see God's special love for me and other Christians. I began to understand what it meant to both love and fear God. The bottom line is that I see myself in the Eph. 2:5 description that Paul makes of spiritual rebirth. It is how I read the term predestined, which seems to match how the dictionary defines it.

Ephesians 2:5 shows us the mercy of God...We all were living in sin.....not all of us were even committing many sins,,,but we still had our sin nature to contend with. While we were in this state,,,God took us that wanted to believe in Him and justified us...He declared us not guilty because of the sacrifice of His Son...and this is totally a work of God....Ephesians 2:8-9 -- we have nothing to do with it but to desire it. This is what we know as justification...God made us just as if we'd never sinned...a brand new creature, made alive IN CHRIST. IN CHRIST we are saved.

This is what I'm talking about when I say "without our permission." If God asked my permission to save me before His divine imposition, I would have rejected the idea (and did many times, since I was one of those many called but not chosen before He interrupted me). Of course, after my heart was changed, and I saw the goodness of God due to Him revealing Himself in powerful ways, I gave "permission" - that is, I was very glad God imposed His will over mine at the time He did so. After God changed my heart through the knowledge of my Savior, then obviously my will became His in that matter, since I surrendered to Him.

Yes,,, I see what you mean above. It's not like he literally asks your permission....He reveals Himself to you,,,with you it was with fear....and you replied by falling on your knees. I'm sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth,,,I don't know how else to say this. If you believe that God "imposed" His will over yours,,,how do you explain the verses that say God wants everyone saved?
John 3:16
Acts 16:30-31
1 Timothy 2:4
2 Peter 3:9
John 12:32
John 10:9
John 6:29 and so many more....

My point is, first came God's predestination of me, then came my "free will" choice to serve Him. I see this both in the teaching of the apostles and my own experience.

But in the bible there is no predestination!
Every verse I posted above required our consent....
Jesus cried over Jerusalem because they did not come to Him...as He would have wanted to gather them unto Himself..Jesus says "you were not willing". This means they had a choice as to whether or not they wanted to go to Christ...
Mathew 23:37
Why didn't God just predestine the Jews to be gathered by Christ?

That's how you are defining it, not how the Bible defines it. I assert that you are seeing what I wrote through a bias. It seems to me that determinism means that every decision made is determined, at least that's what I have heard. Again, I'm not talking about that. I'm only talking about the decision to be saved by means of the gospel message.

Yes,,, but what you're saying is that God MADE YOU be saved....but we are surely saved through the message of the gospel.

The Bible says that before we were saved, we were blinded by the evil one, could not see the light of the gospel, held captive to do Satan's will, slaves to sin, in bondage to the fleshly nature, not able to understand the things of the Spirit, lovers of darkness and shunning the light, and many other ways of saying we could not and would not be saved unless God intervened. Jesus said "with men it is impossible."

You're talking about the calvinist idea of total depravity here. You really do need to study up on calvinism...you just don't know how closely your ideas are to that theology.
Paul said that we are slaves to the one we serve.

Romans 6:15-19
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

Read all of the above verses, which YOU brought up, especially the underlined.....does it sound to you like God is imposing HIS will on you,,,or does it sound like YOU bring yourself to obey the one you serve?

But "with God..." - this means it takes an act of God to save a person. If my will was in bondage to the devil and would by no means obey the gospel, then God has to perform a supernatural act in the spiritual realm, and change something in my heart, such that I am enabled to hear the gospel and believe. It is very obvious to me that God does not do that for every person who hears the preaching. Many people go away from the message as unbelievers. Paul describes this in 1 Cor. 2 and elsewhere. "To the Greek it is foolishness, and to the Jew a stumbling block." Therefore God had to decide to save me in spite of me. He did so by means of the gospel message in conjunction with His divine imposition.

Mathew 19:21-26
21Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
22But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.
23And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24“Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
25When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?”
26And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Jesus is simply telling the Apostles that we cannot get to heaven by our own good works. The Rich Young Man obeyed all the commandments but Jesus said that wasn't enough. Well...what IS enough? We must have faith in God, believe in Jesus as our Savior...and thus with God all things are possible. We need God to get to heaven...we cannot make it on our own, no matter how good we are. If we don't believe in God...we're doomed.

 

[GodsGrace]

PART 4 OF 4

So then, if you are trying to say that your will was free enough to assess spiritual things, namely the gospel message, to judge its goodness, to desire its blessings, and to believe its promises, enough to surrender to God, on your own, without God's help, because you think your will was completely neutral before regeneration, and not in bondage to Satan at the time, then this is where our paths diverge. If this is your stand, then I think you are standing against clear teaching of the Bible. If you judge me as one who doesn't "believe in free will" then so be it.
We are ALL in bondage to satan before being born from above. No will is neutral --- there's no such thing...as I posted above in Romans 6...we either are slaves to satan or slaves to God.

I'm not JUDGING you about free will.
You clearly do not believe in free will.
And, I must say, this is an important issue.
I was in bondage to satan...
God revealed Himself to me....
I answered, Yes God,,,,I desire to serve YOU...and the Holy Spirit did the rest.

I liken people who believe in "free will" as I describe above, with evolutionary extrapolators. What people who believe in macroevolution do is that they see some small changes among species or varieties of creatures, and they extrapolate the idea beyond all reason, to conclude that man evolved from a primordial slime. They see no limits or boundaries to their fertile imagination.

I agree.

In the same way, many people see the minuscule and extremely limited natural ability in humans to make decisions, and extrapolate it beyond all reason to claim that they can break themselves free of bondage to the devil in the spiritual realm, and decide to be born of the Spirit, which is something that only happens by an act of God, according to John 3:8.

I agree.
I explained why when I wrote about the Holy Spirit.

Eph 1:4" just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him, in love" - the WHO that God chooses is US. I think you err in your interpretation here. The statement definitely specifies a WHO.

Read it again....it's not a who,,,it's a how.
God chose us IN HIM before the foundation of the world..

HOW?
that we would be holy and blameless before Him, in love.

God chose all those who would believe to be holy and blameless before Him.

God had a plan as to salvation...He knew we would be saved by Jesus...Genesis 3:17

He made up the plan which is a HOW
NOT a WHO. When who is being spoken of, it's always those that chose to be saved...as in all those verses I posted.

See also Romans 8:29-30 Same thing...
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Take a look at the above:
Those that God FOREKNEW (He knew who would come to be saved...He didn't predestine them to be saved)

What God DID DO was to predestine them to become conformed to the image of Jesus. Again....not who, but HOW...by becoming conformed to the image of Jesus.

And these God called to be justified.

But you yourself stated that the Spirit makes us want to obey God. Are you changing your tune now?


Well, He doesn't MAKE US want to obey God,,,,He gives us the desire to obey God...then we still decide if we want to obey God or not. By your theology, do you realize that you're saying that it's GOD that failed every time you sin??

Finally, I'm not ready to debate Calvinism right now, as I haven't studied it, and it seems to be very involved. I'm here to discuss what the Bible says, not what Calvinists say.
TD

I'm not debating calvinism either...the important thing here is that you know God and are saved. You do hit right up against the calvinist wall,,,so I do apologize if I keep bringing it up. It's a very nice conversation.
[/QUOTE]
click to expand.

 

[tdidymas]

A person comes across the word "predestined" and begins to think that maybe God predestined everything. So you could see that as you continue reading....but you have two choices to make:

1. Did God predestine everything as scripture seems to imply and did He save only those persons that He "enlightened", or however you want to say that...
2. or Does God love everyone and wishes that everyone would come to be saved?

I'm familiar with the verses you cite, so I won't repeat them. There are several presumptions you can take:

1. Assume that "all" in the verses means every person who ever lived or will live. Since it doesn't actually say that, we have to take the meaning from the context of scripture, both the immediate context and wider context, keeping in mind that scripture is not contradictory, and Paul does not contradict himself, if we believe that his writings are inspired of God.
2. Assume that "all" has a cultural context, that since the primary receiver of the communication are Jews, the writer is indicating that all nations are included in God's plan of salvation. So then, the term "all" must have a scope to it that should be obtained from the usage of the word.

Since the scope of "all" is not clear in the immediate context, the definition is to be deemed obscure. So then we must turn to clear statements of scripture that indicate the scope of those who are actually saved, which is a subset of all people everywhere. Such statements as in Rev., that Christ purchased "men from every tribe, tongue, and nation" and other such clear statements indicating that God does not intend to save every person. Ref. Rom. 9:14-18.

3. A third option is to assume that God's desire to save people is not necessarily the same as a plan on who He chooses to save. Obviously, if we are to regard scripture as meeting the law of non-contradiction, there must be a resolution between Rom. 9:18 and 1 Tim. 2:4, since these statements cannot be contradictory.

And the same with John 12:32. But we know that some people are drawn to the cross, and others are repelled by it. If God loved everyone the same, then everyone would be His child, and we know that simply isn't true.

Here's a question: Do you prefer to believe that God saves only SOME persons,,,based on absolutely nothing but His own will...

or do you prefer to believe that God wishes that everyone would be saved if only they would accept His conditions?

It's not a matter of what I prefer to believe, or anyone else prefers to believe. It's a matter of what the Bible clearly states. I answered this question previously.

God could not be a God of love if He only chooses to save some persons and thus condemns the others to hell

This is a false conclusion. Since the Bible says clearly that God chooses to save some, and the rest are condemned, and clearly states that God is love, then God is a God of love. Condemning those who don't obey the gospel is God's prerogative, as an expression of His ultimate justice. Everything God does is righteous, as was the primary lesson of Job.

What people fail to understand is that since everyone comes into the world steeped in sin, God chooses to save some of them according to His grace through the preaching of the gospel. It means that unless God actually decides to save some people, and does it without their prior knowledge, that no one would be saved, because no one would choose to submit to God. Everyone comes into the world in a natural state, in which they are "by nature children of wrath." As spiritual rebels against God, and deep inner haters of His law, and loathers of His will, there is not one person who would correctly assess the gospel and submit. "There is no one who does good, there is not even one."

I'm not denying that God may, and probably does, choose to save some at a very young age, and such people perhaps do not experience the corruption that most of us experience before we are redeemed. Perhaps the apostle Paul would concur. But in that passage in Rom. 3:10-18 he is teaching the doctrine of total depravity, that every person if left to themselves would not choose to do anything pleasing to God with their fleshly "free will."

Total depravity does not mean that a person is actually as bad as he could possibly be. It is not speaking of natural and relative goodness that we normally compare ourselves with others. It is speaking of spiritual depravity. It speaks of a separation between God and people on a deep spiritual level. God is not merely displeased with mankind. People are under His wrath. Nowhere in scripture does it say that God hates the sin but loves the sinner. It clearly states "whoever does not believe, the wrath of God remains on him." It clearly states that God hates the person who plans evil.

So then, the idea of total depravity means spiritual inability to please God by believing in Him. It's an inability to believe. According to Heb. 11 and other places, faith is what pleases God, and is foundational to relationship with Him. And since people in their natural state are unable to believe, God must give them that ability, and He does it by supernatural regeneration of spirit. Total depravity means that when left in their natural condition (as sinners, not born again), people don't want to believe. They suppress the truth (of the gospel) in the unrighteousness of their soul. They reason that the gospel is a fool's errand or nothing but a religious myth.

It's our reply to that grace that allows us to be real human beings and not just a puppet in His hands.

Like I said, we are responders to God, and responders to His grace. God initiates it, we respond. The puppet idea is a straw man, because it doesn't take into consideration the fact of regeneration and the changing of the heart's disposition. Therefore, the term is an unjust comparison in this context.

Of course we should love God back, since He loved us first. "We love because He first loved us." And this "us" in this context of 1 John is the church, not every person who ever lived. And "free" doesn't mean that we generate love in our heart out of nothing. Our love for God is based on God's special love for us, and the gift of knowledge, illumination, understanding, faith, wisdom, hope, vision, and all that is associated with spiritual regeneration. All included in the free gift of God's grace.

Rev. 3:20 is speaking to the church, not the world. It is speaking to Christians whose passion for loving God has died away, and they are needing a revival of love for Christ and each other. That verse spoken to an unbeliever will do nothing but condemn. I'm not saying that the verse cannot be used in an evangelistic message, because it does speak of hope in being reconciled to Christ and being in intimate relationship with Him. I'm simply saying that if God is not already working in a person's heart to understand and believe the spiritual nature of the call, the verse will do nothing for them.

That's it for now.
TD

 

[FrostyKnuckles]

I believe we are to STRIVE for perfection. Be perfect like your heavenly Father is perfect.

However I believe sanctification is an ONGOING process in our life. Which means that while we can never be sinless 1 John 1:8, we CAN greatly reduce sin to a minimum in our life. If we walk in the Spirit!

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe we are to STRIVE for perfection. Be perfect like your heavenly Father is perfect.

However I believe sanctification is an ONGOING process in our life. Which means that while we can never be sinless 1 John 1:8, we CAN greatly reduce sin to a minimum in our life. If we walk in the Spirit!

I agree 100% with what you've said.
Sanctification IS an on-going process and it will not totally be accomplished in this lifetime....

Ephesians 5:8
For at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light.

What does it mean to walk in the light?
Jesus said we are the light of the world and we should make our light shine.

Matthew 5:14-16
14“You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden;
15nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.
16“Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.