Is It Possible to be Free of Sin?

[PeterJens]

The truth is that, all of these systematic (and some more unsystematic) theologies are something that a regular streetsweeper would never come up with if you just handed him a Bible

It takes massive amounts of mental gymnastics to come up with both arminianism and calvinism. Both are full of unbiblical language like "effectual call, ineffectual call, prevenient grace" etc.

These were scholars who came up with this, NOT PLUMBERS. Im sure of that.
Not knocking the scholars, im sure many of them love the Lord and contribute greatly, but I feel sometimes, they tend to overcomplicate things

Once you try and define things to throughly you fall into the world of assumptions, which the more you look build on other assumptions, and you then have a whole new faith structure. Some modern day people who are less connected with scripture end up with a different faith entirely.

They all seem to be looking for something more than the words applied to the human cleansed heart. And maybe that is our real problem, until we know real openness and vulnerability, speaking from the depths of our being, the importance of things makes less sense, and theories of steps of theology become more interesting.

Certainly until my heart came more alive, theories and ideas seemed more interesting and real.

 

[GodsGrace]

Here are the Five Articles of the Remonstrants (expressing the views of Jacobus Arminius). I have marked in red the statements that are not really supported by Scripture. However, in general this is sound doctrine:

The Five articles of Remonstrance refers to the document drawn up in 1610 by the followers of Jacobus Arminius (1560-1609). A "remonstrance" is literally "an expression of opposition or protest," which in this case was a protest against the Calvinist doctrine of predestination contained in the Belgic Confession. Consequently, those followers of Arminius who drafted this protest were given the name "Remonstrants."
This document was condemned as heresy by the reformed churches at the Synod of Dort, 1618-1619. [1]
Article 1 [Salvation contingent upon perseverance]
That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son, before the foundation of the world, hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath, and to condemn them as alienate from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him,” and according to other passages of Scripture also. [2]

Where does the above state that salvation is contingent upon perseverance??

Article 2 [Correctly opposed to Limited Atonement]
That agreeably thereunto, Jesus Christ the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins except the believer, according to the word of the Gospel of John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” And in the First Epistle of 1 John 2:2: “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” [3]

Article 3 [Regeneration required before salvation, similar to Calvinism]
That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me ye can do nothing.” [4]

I believe the above is just saying that we cannot save ourselves with our good works...It is God alone that can save us through our faith in Him.


Article 4 [Correctly states that all righteousness is by the grace of God]
That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without prevenient or assisting, awakening, following and cooperative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements, that can be conceived, must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. but respects the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible; inasmuch as it is written concerning many, that they have resisted the Holy Ghost. Acts 7, and elsewhere in many places. [5]

Article 5 [Correctly states that the indwelling Holy Spirit enables victory over sin]
That those who are incorporated into Christ by true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, have thereby full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Ghost; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, and desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no craft or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ’s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of becoming devoid of grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach it with the full persuasion of our mind. [6]

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[PeterJens]

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Based on this declaration of armenian beliefs I am probably armenian.
I probably need to study these positions more to fully understand
where I stand.

Once you accept that when we meet Jesus we need to be like Him,
it is quite a different perspective on transformation and the state
of the human heart. It requires a lot of faith to take ones own heart
on, and believe their is value in this.

Except if there is no value on progress towards the objective, because
God in His good grace achieves it already, why are the letters full of
do this and do not do that, learn, strive, sacrifice, pay a cost with our
lives, stand firm, hold the faith, do not give in to evil desires, resist
the devil and his arrows, put on the full armour of God.

Funnily I created a graphic to display what some are doing with scripture
as a joke of how absurd this was



And funnily the person who represented the "my gospel" agreed that was right.
So Gods eternal declaration of His heart and intention should be ignored and put
to one side for the refined mini-version and that is why He created the other part
just to show the difference????? You have to be nuts to think that, literally.
If this was true "my gospel" would be all we could see.

Somehow the delusion is religion has created the added bits, not God, and they
are there to correct everything and deliver the others from this delusion.
Except it is just sin driving this, and anything that upsets a sinful heart is not
of God so kicked out. But if one chooses sin over God, one is Gods enemy.

 

[GodsGrace]

Based on this declaration of armenian beliefs I am probably armenian.
I probably need to study these positions more to fully understand
where I stand.

Once you accept that when we meet Jesus we need to be like Him,
it is quite a different perspective on transformation and the state
of the human heart. It requires a lot of faith to take ones own heart
on, and believe their is value in this.

Except if there is no value on progress towards the objective, because
God in His good grace achieves it already, why are the letters full of
do this and do not do that, learn, strive, sacrifice, pay a cost with our
lives, stand firm, hold the faith, do not give in to evil desires, resist
the devil and his arrows, put on the full armour of God.

Funnily I created a graphic to display what some are doing with scripture
as a joke of how absurd this was

View attachment 8407

And funnily the person who represented the "my gospel" agreed that was right.
So Gods eternal declaration of His heart and intention should be ignored and put
to one side for the refined mini-version and that is why He created the other part
just to show the difference????? You have to be nuts to think that, literally.
If this was true "my gospel" would be all we could see.

Somehow the delusion is religion has created the added bits, not God, and they
are there to correct everything and deliver the others from this delusion.
Except it is just sin driving this, and anything that upsets a sinful heart is not
of God so kicked out. But if one chooses sin over God, one is Gods enemy.

I wonder if you'd be willing to start a thread on arminian beliefs,,,as you study them?

It does SEEM to be what I also believe..it reminds me of the 5 points of calvinism....

Could it be this simple?
TULIP seems to be correct......why not this?

As far as the gospel of the sand goes....I wonder sometimes if we put too much emphasis on Jesus as our very own and personal Lord and Savior and thus we could make Him out to be however we WANT Him to be and leave out all that nasty stuff about obeying, following, discipleship, worship, etc.

Man shall not live by bread alone...but by every word that come out of the mouth of God....

 

[WIP]

Based on this declaration of armenian beliefs I am probably armenian.
I probably need to study these positions more to fully understand
where I stand.

My question is for two reasons. First, I want to know if it is really important to know that one falls within a particular doctrinal umbrella and my second reason is more from a tongue-in-cheek perspective. Part of the reason for my second part is because I see so many labels thrown around and sometimes they are used with a negative tone. So here's my question and I don't mean for it to be offensive, if that's how you see it.

Is it important to understand if you are Armenian or Christian?

 

[GodsGrace]

My question is for two reasons. First, I want to know if it is really important to know that one falls within a particular doctrinal umbrella and my second reason is more from a tongue-in-cheek perspective. Part of the reason for my second part is because I see so many labels thrown around and sometimes they are used with a negative tone. So here's my question and I don't mean for it to be offensive, if that's how you see it.

Is it important to understand if you are Armenian or Christian?

Isn't an arminian a Christian?

 

[PeterJens]

My question is for two reasons. First, I want to know if it is really important to know that one falls within a particular doctrinal umbrella and my second reason is more from a tongue-in-cheek perspective. Part of the reason for my second part is because I see so many labels thrown around and sometimes they are used with a negative tone. So here's my question and I don't mean for it to be offensive, if that's how you see it.

Is it important to understand if you are Armenian or Christian?

It is all about simplicity of conversation.
If you say I am a calvanist, I would know basically where you stand on lots of issues which I do not need to go through.
Equally with armenian positions.
I once was doing evangelism with a group, and the team said the church we were working with were armenians so if you did not push to the end, you failed, as if effort defined value or significance. It was seen as calvanist that was, was, we just had to walk and trust God would use it.

So I see the benefit of taking positions and also its wrong applications.
It is the nature of what we are that these things extend and can both be helpful or a hindrance.

 

[WIP]

Isn't an arminian a Christian?

Probably, but what is the importance of the label? I looked up the term and it doesn't even refer back to a particular teaching but rather a nation in western Asia. It would not surprise me that even the Armenians didn't all agree 100% with the doctrine carrying their name.

 

[PeterJens]

I wonder if you'd be willing to start a thread on arminian beliefs,,,as you study them?

It does SEEM to be what I also believe..it reminds me of the 5 points of calvinism....

Could it be this simple?
TULIP seems to be correct......why not this?

As far as the gospel of the sand goes....I wonder sometimes if we put too much emphasis on Jesus as our very own and personal Lord and Savior and thus we could make Him out to be however we WANT Him to be and leave out all that nasty stuff about obeying, following, discipleship, worship, etc.

Man shall not live by bread alone...but by every word that come out of the mouth of God....

Hey dear sister,

Are you a teacher setting homework?
You are right though, it may well be of benefit.
I wonder if one can do this in 2hrs, lol, or is it a term of 3 months?
Need a sub committee to investigate, lol.

My wife would say that is a very male approach
So I will investigate a bit further.

 

[WIP]

It is all about simplicity of conversation.
If you say I am a calvanist, I would know basically where you stand on lots of issues which I do not need to go through.
Equally with armenian positions.
I once was doing evangelism with a group, and the team said the church we were working with were armenians so if you did not push to the end, you failed, as if effort defined value or significance. It was seen as calvanist that was, was, we just had to walk and trust God would use it.

So I see the benefit of taking positions and also its wrong applications.
It is the nature of what we are that these things extend and can both be helpful or a hindrance.

But if you deviate even a little from the doctrinal teachings, then what?

 

[WIP]

I'm sorry, I don't want to hijack this thread. Maybe I'll start a new thread where we can discuss some of the various doctrines?

 

[GodsGrace]

Hey dear sister,

Are you a teacher setting homework?
You are right though, it may well be of benefit.
I wonder if one can do this in 2hrs, lol, or is it a term of 3 months?
Need a sub committee to investigate, lol.

My wife would say that is a very male approach
So I will investigate a bit further.

LOL
I've been known to give homework !!

It seems very interesting....
:nod

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm sorry, I don't want to hijack this thread. Maybe I'll start a new thread where we can discuss some of the various doctrines?

That would be nice in my opinion.

And it would help PeterJens with his homework assignment !

I do agree with him, BTW, that it does facilitate conversation when speaking to someone.

I was on a thread here just recently and it took days just to finally realize the member is calvinist in theology even though he kept insisting that he wasn't. Much time wasted...

 

[FrostyKnuckles]

Probably, but what is the importance of the label? I looked up the term and it doesn't even refer back to a particular teaching but rather a nation in western Asia. It would not surprise me that even the Armenians didn't all agree 100% with the doctrine carrying their name.

Arminianism doesnt come from ARMENIA as often people type "armenianism".

It comes from Jacobus Arminius, a man
Like Calvinism comes from: John Calvin.

I think its important to know what the labels mean, because of the fact that its an easy way to identify what someone believes.

Example: If you go to a store and you just see cans that read "FOOD", well thats great, but what kind of food?

Similarly, if you hear someone throw around words like "sovereign" "Jesus died for His elect people" etc. You can safely deduce that you are discussing with a calvinist , and you can throw out the question "are you reformed/calvinist?" If they say yes, you already know quite a bit what they believe, and that saves up large amounts of time.

My view

 

[GodsGrace]

Arminianism doesnt come from ARMENIA as often people type "armenianism".

It comes from Jacobus Arminius, a man
Like Calvinism comes from: John Calvin.

I think its important to know what the labels mean, because of the fact that its an easy way to identify what someone believes.

Example: If you go to a store and you just see cans that read "FOOD", well thats great, but what kind of food?

Similarly, if you hear someone throw around words like "sovereign" "Jesus died for His elect people" etc. You can safely deduce that you are discussing with a calvinist , and you can throw out the question "are you reformed/calvinist?" If they say yes, you already know quite a bit what they believe, and that saves up large amounts of time.

My view

Agreed.

And just because we "label" someone doesn't even mean that they'll be in agreement with ALL the doctrines of that label...but it's a good start.

I do find it unfortunate that saying we're CHRISTIAN is not enough....and there are so many sub-beliefs besides the major ones that we can all agree on.

 

[PeterJens]

But if you deviate even a little from the doctrinal teachings, then what?

This is an interesting idea.
I have my heart resting in Jesus. I am alive in Him, He is my life, my heart, all I am.
Doctrines are mans attempt to put meaning on that which He has made.
I just want to reflect the reality of that which He has made, and that reflects what
He is in us. So deviation from Him that matters.

And doctrines are words, ideas, summaries that are always limited.
When you see something truly beautiful, do words convey the experience, the things you hear, see, feel the echoes from ones experience as they flood into your consciousness?
Our descriptions are just that. So in humbleness always we need to come, because we are aspiring to our King, and to delve into mysteries that maybe eternally that, mysteries.

Just look at the vastness of everything around us, and we are so simple.
We want to grasp so much, amen, but it maybe just bowing and praising
says more than all. God bless

 

[tdidymas]

Do you believe God forces us to obey Him?


God predestines us to be conformed to the image of His Son?


For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Romans 8:29


Never the less we must choose to walk in the process of this transformation by presenting our bodies as a living sacrifice holy and acceptable to God, and be transformed by the renewing of our minds.


I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Romans 12:1-2



Unfortunately we choose other than to invest our time and energy towards the things of the Spirit, developing our spiritual life and growing in the process of transformation.

• he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith. Galatians 6:7-10





We all have must make the choice regardless of the call.




JLB

The wisdom to obey God in these matters comes only from God. It doesn't come from natural wisdom. That wisdom from God is a part of the free gift of salvation. If it requires a right choice from us before it is given, then it's not free or freely given. God doesn't give us salvation because of a right choice we make to obey it. Rather God gives us salvation in spite of ourselves. I'm saying that our obedience follows the gift of God. First God gives the gift of wisdom and salvation, and then we choose to obey Him. This is how I read Paul's writings. Gal. 6:7 is Paul's way of speaking to the natural mind of people about the practicality of the gospel. It is the same message as Eph. 2:8 speaking to spiritually minded people.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

This is an interesting point.
I decide to pick up a pen. If you read my mind you would see the intention.
Would you be right to conclude I will pick up the pen?
Only when I actually do pick up the pen, because between the intention and action things can change.

So we have faith, we know Jesus, we respond to the words our hearts are open.
When the words come, it is real, it is the fulfilment of what let up to that point.
But until then it is just a potential.

Jesus illustrates this in a parable of two sons.

There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work today in the vineyard.'
"'I will not,' he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.
"Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, 'I will, sir,' but he did not go.
"Which of the two did what his father wanted?The first," they answered.
Matt 21:28-31

So people say they have faith, yet nothing changes or comes into existence.
They are deluded.
Only when things actually show their presence are they really there.

Because the Father see things outside time, He knows the end, but knowing the end does not mean until things occur, they are real. People believe they can have a position in Christ but it not show, as if this is what Christ meant by the gospel.

Your last statement is a bit confusing, I'm not sure what your point is. What I'm saying is that either we believe the way the Bible describes, or not. If we believe in Christ, then God has given us that faith as a free gift, which is part of the free-grace salvation He gives to us. That grace leads us to obedience to the gospel message, which is to exercise faith in Christ, repentance from our sinful behavior, and belief that God does the work of holiness in our hearts. What I'm objecting to is the focus on the man-centered "right to choose" idea, which I believe is the idolatry of the culture. I'm not sure how else to say it.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

I don't know what version you use, but they say different meanings by using the word all in different ways. However you want to accept the correct translation to be...it still means all...

It doesn't mean however you want it to mean. My point is to try to discover what the apostle meant by it by observing how it is used in the context, both the immediate context and the wider context of all scripture. If you put "everyone, regardless of condition" into the word, then you are reading with bias.

So in order to eliminate bias, we must prioritize interpretation of scripture by understanding first the clear doctrinal statements of the apostle, then we can understand where he is coming from when he makes the more vague statements (where the scope of "all" is controversial).
TD

 

[tdidymas]

2 of 2


TD: I'm not certain that you know the way I understand it. I wonder if you're really reading what I wrote. I also wonder if you are confusing the bondage we were in prior to regeneration with the freedom we have in Christ after regeneration. In your statement here, you seem to be convoluting the two conditions.

W: I'm not confusing anything TD... I understand about bondage very well...bondage to satan does not mean our free will to leave his domain has been taken from us.

If total depravity was true....then how could Paul write the words in
Romans 10:9-10
9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

These are the steps to salvation:

1. 
   
   • Confess with the mouth
   
   
   • Believe in the heart

3. You will be saved.

Salvation is the last step....not the first as you believe.

The natural will of man is not free until God frees it. 2 Cor. 4:3-4 "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." So then, God must impose His light into our heart to free us to make the right decision to obey the gospel.

In Rom. 10:9-10, Paul is describing obedience to the gospel, not a step-by-step instruction to getting saved. It is evident that you are imposing a chronology into the text that isn't there.

Obedience follows faith, and faith is the gift of God by grace. 1 Jn. 5:1 "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God" - present tense. Therefore, if I believe in Christ, I am already born of God, not will be.

TD: Yet, you actually do say before regeneration we were slaves to Satan, so I just don't know what your issue is. Being a slave to Satan means we can't get free. It takes an act of God to free us. Paul wrote "He translated us from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of His dear Son." That's an act of God, not a moral decision. A slave to Satan can't make a moral decision to please God by obedience to the gospel. It takes an act of God to free us from that bondage so that we can make the moral decision to obey the gospel. This is what Paul is describing in Eph. 2:1-10.

W: In my own experience the above is not true.
I went to Mass and confession almost every week when I was about 10 or 11 years old because this is what I was taught. I was a slave to satan at that time....so would you say that attending church is an evil?

Circumstances aren't the evil. The evil is the sinful nature which is the gift of Satan to mankind. It seems to me that your question is insincere.

Many of us went to church and were still spiritually dead. Satan blinded our minds, and this is what the sinful nature does. And besides that, our personal experience doesn't determine what is true or not true. If we try to understand spiritual things by personal subjective experience, we get off track. Since we understand nothing of God's things naturally, we must have the special revelation written in the scripture to tell us of spiritual things. Knowing this, it makes our personal subjective experience worthless for understanding spiritual things.

W:

Our talk is too general and will not bring us anywhere.
How's this: YOU explain how you understand Romans 10:9-10 and I'll explain Ephesians 2:1-10 ....which you posted above....

Ephesians 2:1-10
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

verses 1, 2:
When we're born ,,, we are lost. We were following the way of the world which is the opposite of the Kingdom of God. Satan is the prince of the air,,,he rules here on earth. When we're born we're all enslaved to satan, whether we're big sinners or really nice, good persons...we are still lost due to our sin nature, due to the fall of Adam. This is an effect of the fall.

verses 3-5
Because God loves His best creation, man, He gave us a way out of this bondage to sin. Jesus died on the cross for two reasons...1 to free us from the fear of death since He conquered death and 2 to free us from the bondage to satan and sin by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

We are born spiritually dead,,,,if we do not come to believe in Jesus we remain spiritually dead....while we were yet in this state, God had, from the beginning of time, made a plan to save us. The plan, simply put, is in Romans 10:9-10...IF we believe in Jesus,,,we are saved. Belief first,,,then salvation.

I agree with you up to this point: "Belief first,,,then salvation." Actually, salvation is in stages. Resurrection is part of that salvation and obviously that comes later. But you should not confuse that chronology with how God initiates that salvation, beginning with spiritual rebirth. It is evident to me that in Rom. 10 Paul is speaking of being saved ultimately by resurrection.

W:

verses 6-7
IN CHRIST, who was raised from the dead and thus is God....we come to be saved.

verses 8-10
We are not saved by self-righteous works, but it is by God's grace, THROUGH the instrument of our faith...that brings us to salvation...we are no longer under works, but under grace...Paul spoke about this in every letter he wrote because it was such a new idea to the Jews and Gentiles alike.

I agree here also. And I add, that I cannot boast that I made the right choice to believe and obey the gospel apart from God's working. I rather boast in God, that He did that work of faith and obedience in me by the grace He bestowed.



TD