Nathan12
Member
Both Calvinistic and Arminian theology distorts Gospel truth. So you may be on the right track. We need to stay with what is actually in the Bible, not what is imagined to be there.
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
Is It Possible to be Free of Sin?
- Thread starter GodsGrace
- Start date
Nathan12
Member
There is a difference between God "intends" and God "desires". God desires the salvation of all human beings, but no one is saved unless they obey the Gospel -- repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. This is called "the obedience of faith" in Romans. Hence Peter said "Repent ... and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" and Paul said "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house".
I agree.
Yes Paul is acknowledging that God intends to have mercy on some and harden others.
However, this does not necessarily mean this was intent before He observed this person’s behavior and concluded otherwise.
Amen!
JLB
1Jo 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
Isn't it obvious that he isn't saying they know everything?
1Jo 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
Yet he acknowledges that God does know everything - can you see that the term "all" is not the same scope in these two statements?
Heb 2:15
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
This "all" only refers to the past in this context.
Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Since Jesus said "My Father is working, and I am working," the "all" in this statement doesn't mean the totality, but means works of creation, since God is still doing work of some kind. So the term has a limited scope.
1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men.
It would be unreasonable to assume that "all" means everyone in the world, since you'll never meet most of them. It could mean mankind in general, but can't mean every individual.
1Ti 6:10
For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
Since we know for certain that revenge could be the root of murder, and there are other causes of many evil deeds, this "all" cannot mean every evil deed. Some translate it "all kinds," but still use the term "all". Again, context demands a limited scope of the term.
These a just a few examples of many places where "all" has a limited scope.
I'm not certain that you know the way I understand it. I wonder if you're really reading what I wrote. I also wonder if you are confusing the bondage we were in prior to regeneration with the freedom we have in Christ after regeneration. In your statement here, you seem to be convoluting the two conditions.
Yet, you actually do say before regeneration we were slaves to Satan, so I just don't know what your issue is. Being a slave to Satan means we can't get free. It takes an act of God to free us. Paul wrote "He translated us from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of His dear Son." That's an act of God, not a moral decision. A slave to Satan can't make a moral decision to please God by obedience to the gospel. It takes an act of God to free us from that bondage so that we can make the moral decision to obey the gospel. This is what Paul is describing in Eph. 2:1-10.
Since you don't believe the doctrine of total depravity, this begs the question:
Do you believe that the sinful nature just makes you a little bit sinful? But before you heard of Christ you were basically a good person?
TD
Last edited:
You're talking as if God doesn't know a person until He "observes" their behavior. Are you an Open Theist?
TD
Do you believe God forces us to obey Him?
God predestines us to be conformed to the image of His Son?
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Romans 8:29
Never the less we must choose to walk in the process of this transformation by presenting our bodies as a living sacrifice holy and acceptable to God, and be transformed by the renewing of our minds.
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Romans 12:1-2
Unfortunately we choose other than to invest our time and energy towards the things of the Spirit, developing our spiritual life and growing in the process of transformation.
- he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith. Galatians 6:7-10
We all have must make the choice regardless of the call.
JLB
This is an interesting point.You're talking as if God doesn't know a person until He "observes" their behavior. Are you an Open Theist?
TD
I decide to pick up a pen. If you read my mind you would see the intention.
Would you be right to conclude I will pick up the pen?
Only when I actually do pick up the pen, because between the intention and action things can change.
So we have faith, we know Jesus, we respond to the words our hearts are open.
When the words come, it is real, it is the fulfilment of what let up to that point.
But until then it is just a potential.
Jesus illustrates this in a parable of two sons.
There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work today in the vineyard.'
"'I will not,' he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.
"Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, 'I will, sir,' but he did not go.
"Which of the two did what his father wanted?The first," they answered.
Matt 21:28-31
So people say they have faith, yet nothing changes or comes into existence.
They are deluded.
Only when things actually show their presence are they really there.
Because the Father see things outside time, He knows the end, but knowing the end does not mean until things occur, they are real. People believe they can have a position in Christ but it not show, as if this is what Christ meant by the gospel.
Exactly.
God desires and destinates for each of us to walk according to the pattern Son, and in the end for us to reign and be with Him in the age to come.
Judas was one that was predestined to such a destiny.
Then Peter answered and said to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?”
So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:27-28
Key Phrase:
- when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones,
JLB
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
I know that I don't agree with ANY of the five points...
But I don't really know about armenianism either...
I'd rather go to the bible with a "clean slate brain" and see what it teaches.
Also, I tend to lean on teachings of mainline churches...so far I've been to 2 (and know the doctrine of a 3rd) and so far I've come to no conflict at all.
HOW do you think you're calvinist?
Please don't answer if you don't care to.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Hi WIP,,,,you and I went through this once, some time ago.
I also don't know what all the labels mean...however, I must say that I think it's important to know about Calvinism.
The reason is that they have a way of speaking that makes it sound like what they're saying is the normal, biblical concept of knowing God and soteriology,,,,when, in fact, they are NOT saying that at all. They basically change the nature of God so that He is not loving, and merciful, and just.
We don't have to know every belief out there....but we should know about this one...
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
How does Arminian theology distort the bible?
I just got this from the net and I do think I'm an arminian!
Christian Theology: 5 Ways Arminianism Differs From Calvinism
Jacobus Arminius, a 16th century reformist, was instrumental in advancing Christian theology beyond the restrictive view espoused by Calvinism. Arminianism clearly deviates from the five key points of Calvinism referenced by the acronym TULIP.
www.newsmax.com
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Hi JLB,,,
In your understanding,,, do you believe that SOME persons in the bible DID HAVE a very specific reason for being born?
For instance: Moses, Jonah, Mary, Judas.....?
I do believe that God can work all to HIS WILL, somehow through our own free will,,,,but He will work all things out to HIS desire....
Ephesians 1:11
11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
Calvanism
Total depravity - do not hold to augustines views. People love but defend that love from hurt, and this means people can walk truly as Holy with Jesus
Unconditional election - people are called but once called and enlightened can walk away - calling is general though enlightenment only is achieved by some
Limited atonement - atonement only for those who believers (agree)
irresistible grace - People can fall away, so not my position
Perseveance of the saints - God will stand by His elect (agree)
So I agree with 2 of the principles. So I am calvanistic in the call being Gods work
and without it no one can know God because they are lost in sin.
But the choice once enlightened means they can walk away.
Interestingly of the free grace group, to have people have guilt from rejecting Christ they cannot be blinded by sin and not be aware of the significance of Jesus, yet not become saved so their rejection is as sinners not as saints.
Nathan12
Member
Here are the Five Articles of the Remonstrants (expressing the views of Jacobus Arminius). I have marked in red the statements that are not really supported by Scripture. However, in general this is sound doctrine:
The Five articles of Remonstrance refers to the document drawn up in 1610 by the followers of Jacobus Arminius (1560-1609). A "remonstrance" is literally "an expression of opposition or protest," which in this case was a protest against the Calvinist doctrine of predestination contained in the Belgic Confession. Consequently, those followers of Arminius who drafted this protest were given the name "Remonstrants."
This document was condemned as heresy by the reformed churches at the Synod of Dort, 1618-1619. [1]
Article 1 [Salvation contingent upon perseverance]
That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son, before the foundation of the world, hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath, and to condemn them as alienate from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him,” and according to other passages of Scripture also. [2]
Article 2 [Correctly opposed to Limited Atonement]
That agreeably thereunto, Jesus Christ the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins except the believer, according to the word of the Gospel of John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” And in the First Epistle of 1 John 2:2: “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” [3]
Article 3 [Regeneration required before salvation, similar to Calvinism]
That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me ye can do nothing.” [4]
Article 4 [Correctly states that all righteousness is by the grace of God]
That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without prevenient or assisting, awakening, following and cooperative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements, that can be conceived, must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. but respects the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible; inasmuch as it is written concerning many, that they have resisted the Holy Ghost. Acts 7, and elsewhere in many places. [5]
Article 5 [Correctly states that the indwelling Holy Spirit enables victory over sin]
That those who are incorporated into Christ by true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, have thereby full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Ghost; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, and desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no craft or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ’s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of becoming devoid of grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach it with the full persuasion of our mind. [6]
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
2 of 2
I'm not certain that you know the way I understand it. I wonder if you're really reading what I wrote. I also wonder if you are confusing the bondage we were in prior to regeneration with the freedom we have in Christ after regeneration. In your statement here, you seem to be convoluting the two conditions.
I'm not confusing anything TD... I understand about bondage very well...bondage to satan does not mean our free will to leave his domain has been taken from us.
If total depravity was true....then how could Paul write the words in
Romans 10:9-10
9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
These are the steps to salvation:
3. You will be saved.
Salvation is the last step....not the first as you believe.
Yet, you actually do say before regeneration we were slaves to Satan, so I just don't know what your issue is. Being a slave to Satan means we can't get free. It takes an act of God to free us. Paul wrote "He translated us from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of His dear Son." That's an act of God, not a moral decision. A slave to Satan can't make a moral decision to please God by obedience to the gospel. It takes an act of God to free us from that bondage so that we can make the moral decision to obey the gospel. This is what Paul is describing in Eph. 2:1-10.
In my own experience the above is not true.
I went to Mass and confession almost every week when I was about 10 or 11 years old because this is what I was taught. I was a slave to satan at that time....so would you say that attending church is an evil?
Our talk is too general and will not bring us anywhere.
How's this: YOU explain how you understand Romans 10:9-10 and I'll explain Ephesians 2:1-10 ....which you posted above....
Ephesians 2:1-10
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
verses 1, 2:
When we're born ,,, we are lost. We were following the way of the world which is the opposite of the Kingdom of God. Satan is the prince of the air,,,he rules here on earth. When we're born we're all enslaved to satan, whether we're big sinners or really nice, good persons...we are still lost due to our sin nature, due to the fall of Adam. This is an effect of the fall.
verses 3-5
Because God loves His best creation, man, He gave us a way out of this bondage to sin. Jesus died on the cross for two reasons...1 to free us from the fear of death since He conquered death and 2 to free us from the bondage to satan and sin by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
We are born spiritually dead,,,,if we do not come to believe in Jesus we remain spiritually dead....while we were yet in this state, God had, from the beginning of time, made a plan to save us. The plan, simply put, is in Romans 10:9-10...IF we believe in Jesus,,,we are saved. Belief first,,,then salvation.
verses 6-7
IN CHRIST, who was raised from the dead and thus is God....we come to be saved.
verses 8-10
We are not saved by self-righteous works, but it is by God's grace, THROUGH the instrument of our faith...that brings us to salvation...we are no longer under works, but under grace...Paul spoke about this in every letter he wrote because it was such a new idea to the Jews and Gentiles alike.
Since you don't believe the doctrine of total depravity, this begs the question:
Do you believe that the sinful nature just makes you a little bit sinful? But before you heard of Christ you were basically a good person?
TD
The sin nature divides us from God. It does not make us so depraved that we cannot reach out to God.
Again...Romans 1:19-20 We are without excuse if lost since God reveals Himself to all mankind.
Why are we given the moral law as if we had a choice to keep it or not?
How would you explain Romans 10:9-10 ?
[/QUOTE]
click to expand
I'm not certain that you know the way I understand it. I wonder if you're really reading what I wrote. I also wonder if you are confusing the bondage we were in prior to regeneration with the freedom we have in Christ after regeneration. In your statement here, you seem to be convoluting the two conditions.
I'm not confusing anything TD... I understand about bondage very well...bondage to satan does not mean our free will to leave his domain has been taken from us.
If total depravity was true....then how could Paul write the words in
Romans 10:9-10
9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
These are the steps to salvation:
- Confess with the mouth
- Believe in the heart
3. You will be saved.
Salvation is the last step....not the first as you believe.
Yet, you actually do say before regeneration we were slaves to Satan, so I just don't know what your issue is. Being a slave to Satan means we can't get free. It takes an act of God to free us. Paul wrote "He translated us from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of His dear Son." That's an act of God, not a moral decision. A slave to Satan can't make a moral decision to please God by obedience to the gospel. It takes an act of God to free us from that bondage so that we can make the moral decision to obey the gospel. This is what Paul is describing in Eph. 2:1-10.
In my own experience the above is not true.
I went to Mass and confession almost every week when I was about 10 or 11 years old because this is what I was taught. I was a slave to satan at that time....so would you say that attending church is an evil?
Our talk is too general and will not bring us anywhere.
How's this: YOU explain how you understand Romans 10:9-10 and I'll explain Ephesians 2:1-10 ....which you posted above....
Ephesians 2:1-10
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
verses 1, 2:
When we're born ,,, we are lost. We were following the way of the world which is the opposite of the Kingdom of God. Satan is the prince of the air,,,he rules here on earth. When we're born we're all enslaved to satan, whether we're big sinners or really nice, good persons...we are still lost due to our sin nature, due to the fall of Adam. This is an effect of the fall.
verses 3-5
Because God loves His best creation, man, He gave us a way out of this bondage to sin. Jesus died on the cross for two reasons...1 to free us from the fear of death since He conquered death and 2 to free us from the bondage to satan and sin by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
We are born spiritually dead,,,,if we do not come to believe in Jesus we remain spiritually dead....while we were yet in this state, God had, from the beginning of time, made a plan to save us. The plan, simply put, is in Romans 10:9-10...IF we believe in Jesus,,,we are saved. Belief first,,,then salvation.
verses 6-7
IN CHRIST, who was raised from the dead and thus is God....we come to be saved.
verses 8-10
We are not saved by self-righteous works, but it is by God's grace, THROUGH the instrument of our faith...that brings us to salvation...we are no longer under works, but under grace...Paul spoke about this in every letter he wrote because it was such a new idea to the Jews and Gentiles alike.
Since you don't believe the doctrine of total depravity, this begs the question:
Do you believe that the sinful nature just makes you a little bit sinful? But before you heard of Christ you were basically a good person?
TD
The sin nature divides us from God. It does not make us so depraved that we cannot reach out to God.
Again...Romans 1:19-20 We are without excuse if lost since God reveals Himself to all mankind.
Why are we given the moral law as if we had a choice to keep it or not?
How would you explain Romans 10:9-10 ?
[/QUOTE]
click to expand
FrostyKnuckles
Member
The truth is that, all of these systematic (and some more unsystematic) theologies are something that a regular streetsweeper would never come up with if you just handed him a Bible
It takes massive amounts of mental gymnastics to come up with both arminianism and calvinism. Both are full of unbiblical language like "effectual call, ineffectual call, prevenient grace" etc.
These were scholars who came up with this, NOT PLUMBERS. Im sure of that.
Not knocking the scholars, im sure many of them love the Lord and contribute greatly, but I feel sometimes, they tend to overcomplicate things
It takes massive amounts of mental gymnastics to come up with both arminianism and calvinism. Both are full of unbiblical language like "effectual call, ineffectual call, prevenient grace" etc.
These were scholars who came up with this, NOT PLUMBERS. Im sure of that.
Not knocking the scholars, im sure many of them love the Lord and contribute greatly, but I feel sometimes, they tend to overcomplicate things