LanaPodesta
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Is it wrong to kiss icons?
- Thread starter LanaPodesta
- Start date
LanaPodesta
Member
Because no one is worshipping the object. I get tired of repeating this.
LanaPodesta
Member
No I'm not lol. I'm venerating its depiction.
LanaPodesta
Member
### 1. **Distinction Between Veneration and Worship**
Orthodox Christians do not worship icons; they venerate them. Worship (*latreia*) is due to God alone, while veneration (*proskynesis*) is a gesture of honor and respect that points to the person or reality represented by the icon. As St. John of Damascus explains:
*"I do not venerate matter, but I venerate the Creator of matter, who for my sake became material and deigned to dwell in matter, and through matter effected my salvation."*
To suggest that treating an object with reverence makes it an idol ignores the theological understanding that icons are windows to the divine, not ends in themselves.
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### 2. **The Incarnation and the Sanctification of Matter**
The Incarnation of Christ radically transforms how Christians view the material world. When God took on flesh, He sanctified matter, making it a vessel for divine grace. Icons are an extension of this principle—they are not worshiped, but they are tools through which the faithful encounter God’s grace. To revere an icon is not idolatry but a recognition of God's ability to work through created things.
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### 3. **Romans 2:22 in Context**
Romans 2:22 addresses hypocrisy, particularly among those who boast in the law while breaking it. St. Paul rebukes those who claim to abhor idols yet commit sacrilege by failing to live according to God's commandments. This verse is not a condemnation of veneration but a warning against duplicity and self-righteousness.
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### 4. **"Toss It in the Dumpster" Argument**
The argument that something is an idol if it cannot be discarded misunderstands the nature of sacred objects. The Church teaches that icons, consecrated vessels, or even Scripture itself should not be treated casually or disrespectfully. This is not idolatry but reverence for what they signify.
For example:
- Christians would not toss a Bible into the trash, not because the paper and ink are "idols," but because the Bible represents God’s Word.
- Similarly, Orthodox Christians treat icons with respect because they are expressions of holy realities, not because the materials themselves are worshiped.
The idea that reverence equals idolatry fails to account for this fundamental distinction.
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### 5. **The Biblical and Patristic Foundation for Icons**
The early Church recognized the value of material things in worship, as evidenced by:
- God’s command to create the Ark of the Covenant with cherubim (Exodus 25:18-22).
- The use of sacred art in the Temple (1 Kings 6:29).
The veneration of icons was affirmed at the Seventh Ecumenical Council (787 AD), which declared that honoring icons is not idolatry but a proper way to honor Christ and His saints.
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### 6. **Holiness Is Not Idolatry**
To "endue holiness" to something like an icon is not idolatry but an acknowledgment of its purpose in leading us to God. Holiness is not intrinsic to the wood or paint but comes from its use in the liturgical and prayer life of the Church. The reverence shown to icons reflects the reverence given to Christ and His saints.
I never said you were trying to derail this thread.
LanaPodesta
Member
My point is if you accept the Trinity, you accept something extra-scriptural, something from the Holy Tradition of the Church. If you can accept the Trinity, you can accept the kissing of icons, something which Christians were doing centuries before the birth of Martin Luther.Hi LanaPodesta we can not derail from that which this thread is about by discussing the Trinity being another topic. If you would like to start a new thread on this topic and add me to it as I would love to discuss this with you.
And you keep ignoring Exodus 20:4-5. Why is that?
LanaPodesta
Member
I'm not ignoring it lmao. It's a strawman argument you're making. The Bible says worshipping idols is wrong. I agree.
You need to learn what the Holy Trinity is. I will not put the whole teaching here, but will give you these scriptures that I doubt you will even read or study.
Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 John 5:7, 8, 20; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 13:14; Isaiah 9:6; 44:6; Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:23; 28:19; John 14:16, 17; Genesis 1:1, 2 (cross reference John 1:1-14); 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15-17; John 14:9-11; Philippians 2:5-8; Rev 1:8
Scriptures that refer the Holy Spirit as being God:
Psalms 139:7, 8; John 14:17; 16:13; Isaiah 40:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11; Zechariah 4:6; Luke 1:35; Ephesians 4:4-6; Romans 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21; Jude 1:20
LanaPodesta
Member
Thank you for the list of Scripture passages. They indeed point to the divinity of Christ and the Holy Spirit, which are essential elements of the doctrine of the Holy Trinity. However, the Trinity itself—the understanding that God is one essence in three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)—is not explicitly taught in Scripture. Nowhere does the Bible state, in so many words, "God is Trinity," nor does it provide a detailed explanation of the relationship between the three persons of the Godhead.
The doctrine of the Trinity was developed and defined by the Church over several centuries, guided by the Holy Spirit working through the Ecumenical Councils. It was the Church’s reflection on Scripture within the context of Holy Tradition that allowed us to articulate this profound mystery of faith. For instance, terms like homoousios ("of the same essence"), used to describe the relationship between the Father and the Son, and the distinction between ousia (essence) and hypostasis (person), are not found in Scripture but were adopted by the Church to safeguard the truth revealed in Scripture.
This development highlights a critical point: Scripture alone is not sufficient to articulate or preserve the fullness of Christian truth. Without the Church’s authority, guided by the Holy Spirit, there would be no consensus on how to understand the divinity of Christ, the Holy Spirit, or their relationship to the Father. The history of heresies like Arianism, which denied Christ’s divinity, shows how easily Scripture can be misinterpreted without the clarifying guidance of Tradition.
Similarly, the veneration of icons is not explicitly commanded in Scripture, but it is part of the same Holy Tradition that defined the Trinity. The Church, through the Seventh Ecumenical Council, affirmed that honoring icons is consistent with the Incarnation—the mystery of the Word becoming flesh—and with the biblical principle of giving due honor to holy things (e.g., the Ark of the Covenant, the bronze serpent, and the temple).
If one accepts the doctrine of the Trinity, which relies on the authority of the Church and its Tradition to clarify truths not explicitly stated in Scripture, it is inconsistent to reject practices like the veneration of icons, which are rooted in the same Tradition.
Do you not believe that Christ is God?
Since you appear to be speaking from a Catholic perspective, although it doesn't make any difference, I'll quote from the New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition Bible.
For a child has been born for us,
a son given to us;
authority rests upon his shoulders;
and he is named
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6 NRSVCE
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
14 And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father’s only son, full of grace and truth.
John 1:1-2, 14 NRSVCE
57 Then the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, before Abraham was, I am.”
59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.
John 8:57-59 NRSVCE
Do you understand why the Jews wanted to stone Jesus? It was because He claimed to be God when He proclaimed, "Before Abraham was, I am." They fully understood what He was saying and to them for a man to claim to be God would be blasphemy. But the truth is that He was proclaiming the truth, and it was not blasphemous.
But we are not to worship saints or angels either. Nor do we need mediators other than Christ himself.
5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
1 Timothy 2:5-6 NKJV
5 Then a voice came from the throne, saying, “Praise our God, all you His servants and those who fear Him, both small and great!”
9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’ ” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.”
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God!"
Revelation 19:5, 9-10 NKJV
LanaPodesta
Member
LanaPodesta
Member
Wasn't going to do this, but here it is.
1. God is Spirit, John 4:24, not flesh and blood and in the OT either spoke directly to the prophets or by angels and also various objects like a burning bush or an ass for example. Between the OT and NT God was silent towards Israel as when they returned to Israel from the Babylonian captivity they came back as merchants and not shepherds as they were disobedient to God going after other gods, Book of Malachi.
2. Jesus being the very Spirit of God before the foundation of the world as He and the Father are one was prophesied by the Prophets in the OT and spoken of by John the Baptist in the NT as John being the forerunner of Christ calling all to repent. As foretold Christ did come as the word of God made flesh (skin, bone, blood) to be that light that shines in darkness. He came as redeemer Savior through Gods grace as Christ is our faith that all can repent of their sins and have eternal life with the Father to all who will believe in Him as Lord and Savior. John 1:1-4; 1 Peter 1:13-21
3. After the sacrifice of Christ God raised Him from the grave and as He had to ascend back up to heaven the promise was that He would never leave us or forsake us as when He ascended He sent down the Holy Spirit (Spirit of God) to indwell all who will believe in Christ and His finished works on the cross. In the OT Gods Spirit fell on them for a time and purpose under heaven. Now we are indwelled with that power and authority through Gods grace that the Holy Spirit now works in us and through us teaching all things God wants us to learn. All three are Spiritual and Spiritual awaking's in us to know the will of God and walk in His statures. John 16:7-15
Ephesians 4: 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit as all three coequal Gods Spirit.
Jesus being the right arm of God. Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Jesus is the word of God. John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
Jesus is word, light and life that is God come in the flesh. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Gods Holy Spirit has come to indwell us and teach us. John 14: 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 John 5:7, 8, 20; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 13:14; Isaiah 9:6; 44:6; Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:23; 28:19; John 14:16, 17; Genesis 1:1, 2 (cross reference John 1:1-14); 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15-17; John 14:9-11; Philippians 2:5-8; Rev 1:8
Scriptures that refer the Holy Spirit as being God:
Psalms 139:7, 8; John 14:17; 16:13; Isaiah 40:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11; Zechariah 4:6; Luke 1:35; Ephesians 4:4-6; Romans 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21; Jude 1:20
There is no need to "idolize" a real person, so No, I do not idolize Him.
The idols of the bible were false gods.
People bowed to them and kissed them, and much more insanity.
Until the day of judgement, they are dead men in graves, awaiting the resurrection on the last day.
As Jesus is the only 'way' to Christ, depending on other intercessors is a waste of time.
That being true, why do you need any other intercessor ?
Why not go to the throne of God yourself ? (Heb 4:16)
I can't agree.
Instead of venerating the accomplishments of Jesus and His Father, why not venerate the One who made holiness and sinlessness possible ?
That sounds like an excuse to idolize pictures and false idols of stone and wood.
God has commanded us not to do what you have instituted into your religion.
That, is the definition of idolatry.
You are wasting your excuses to disobey God on me.
But many do worship and bow down to the objects as that is idol worshiping and comes against God's commandment not to make graven images and bow down to them.
I gave you the scriptures about the Trinity that is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but you choose to ignore and not read or study them. They are not extra scriptural, nor traditional, but that being the word of God.