Is it wrong to kiss icons?

[LanaPodesta]

Ungodly refers to a practice that is against what God commands us to do.

“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. Exodus 20:4-5


But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

You keep repeating this. As I've said before, icons are typically painted.

 

[LanaPodesta]

The thing is that no one knows what Jesus looked like, so why bow down to depictions of material objects and worship them depictions. We bow down to God in Spirit and truth, John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Because no one is worshipping the object. I get tired of repeating this.

 

[LanaPodesta]

Your are bestowing on the icon love and worship.
Would you act the same way with your car, or with your front-door knob ?

No I'm not lol. I'm venerating its depiction.

 

[LanaPodesta]

You answered your own question.
Idolaters have endued a holiness and reverence to stone and wood...and pictures.
If one cannot toss something in the dumpster, it is an idol.
It is written..."... thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?" (Rom 2:22)

### 1. **Distinction Between Veneration and Worship**
Orthodox Christians do not worship icons; they venerate them. Worship (*latreia*) is due to God alone, while veneration (*proskynesis*) is a gesture of honor and respect that points to the person or reality represented by the icon. As St. John of Damascus explains:
*"I do not venerate matter, but I venerate the Creator of matter, who for my sake became material and deigned to dwell in matter, and through matter effected my salvation."*

To suggest that treating an object with reverence makes it an idol ignores the theological understanding that icons are windows to the divine, not ends in themselves.

---

### 2. **The Incarnation and the Sanctification of Matter**
The Incarnation of Christ radically transforms how Christians view the material world. When God took on flesh, He sanctified matter, making it a vessel for divine grace. Icons are an extension of this principle—they are not worshiped, but they are tools through which the faithful encounter God’s grace. To revere an icon is not idolatry but a recognition of God's ability to work through created things.

---

### 3. **Romans 2:22 in Context**
Romans 2:22 addresses hypocrisy, particularly among those who boast in the law while breaking it. St. Paul rebukes those who claim to abhor idols yet commit sacrilege by failing to live according to God's commandments. This verse is not a condemnation of veneration but a warning against duplicity and self-righteousness.

---

### 4. **"Toss It in the Dumpster" Argument**
The argument that something is an idol if it cannot be discarded misunderstands the nature of sacred objects. The Church teaches that icons, consecrated vessels, or even Scripture itself should not be treated casually or disrespectfully. This is not idolatry but reverence for what they signify.

For example:
- Christians would not toss a Bible into the trash, not because the paper and ink are "idols," but because the Bible represents God’s Word.
- Similarly, Orthodox Christians treat icons with respect because they are expressions of holy realities, not because the materials themselves are worshiped.

The idea that reverence equals idolatry fails to account for this fundamental distinction.

---

### 5. **The Biblical and Patristic Foundation for Icons**
The early Church recognized the value of material things in worship, as evidenced by:
- God’s command to create the Ark of the Covenant with cherubim (Exodus 25:18-22).
- The use of sacred art in the Temple (1 Kings 6:29).

The veneration of icons was affirmed at the Seventh Ecumenical Council (787 AD), which declared that honoring icons is not idolatry but a proper way to honor Christ and His saints.

---

### 6. **Holiness Is Not Idolatry**
To "endue holiness" to something like an icon is not idolatry but an acknowledgment of its purpose in leading us to God. Holiness is not intrinsic to the wood or paint but comes from its use in the liturgical and prayer life of the Church. The reverence shown to icons reflects the reverence given to Christ and His saints.

 

[for_his_glory]

I'm not derailing this thread by mentioning the Triune God. Icons must never replace that true God, which is my point.

I never said you were trying to derail this thread.

 

[LanaPodesta]

Hi LanaPodesta we can not derail from that which this thread is about by discussing the Trinity being another topic. If you would like to start a new thread on this topic and add me to it as I would love to discuss this with you.

My point is if you accept the Trinity, you accept something extra-scriptural, something from the Holy Tradition of the Church. If you can accept the Trinity, you can accept the kissing of icons, something which Christians were doing centuries before the birth of Martin Luther.

 

[for_his_glory]

You keep repeating this. As I've said before, icons are typically painted.

And you keep ignoring Exodus 20:4-5. Why is that?

 

[LanaPodesta]

And you keep ignoring Exodus 20:4-5. Why is that?

I'm not ignoring it lmao. It's a strawman argument you're making. The Bible says worshipping idols is wrong. I agree.

 

[for_his_glory]

My point is if you accept the Trinity, you accept something extra-scriptural, something from the Holy Tradition of the Church. If you can accept the Trinity, you can accept the kissing of icons, something which Christians were doing centuries before the birth of Martin Luther.

You need to learn what the Holy Trinity is. I will not put the whole teaching here, but will give you these scriptures that I doubt you will even read or study.

Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 John 5:7, 8, 20; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 13:14; Isaiah 9:6; 44:6; Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:23; 28:19; John 14:16, 17; Genesis 1:1, 2 (cross reference John 1:1-14); 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15-17; John 14:9-11; Philippians 2:5-8; Rev 1:8


Scriptures that refer the Holy Spirit as being God:
Psalms 139:7, 8; John 14:17; 16:13; Isaiah 40:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11; Zechariah 4:6; Luke 1:35; Ephesians 4:4-6; Romans 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21; Jude 1:20

 

[LanaPodesta]

You need to learn what the Holy Trinity is. I will not put the whole teaching here, but will give you these scriptures that I doubt you will even read or study.

Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 John 5:7, 8, 20; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 13:14; Isaiah 9:6; 44:6; Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:23; 28:19; John 14:16, 17; Genesis 1:1, 2 (cross reference John 1:1-14); 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15-17; John 14:9-11; Philippians 2:5-8; Rev 1:8


Scriptures that refer the Holy Spirit as being God:
Psalms 139:7, 8; John 14:17; 16:13; Isaiah 40:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11; Zechariah 4:6; Luke 1:35; Ephesians 4:4-6; Romans 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21; Jude 1:20

Thank you for the list of Scripture passages. They indeed point to the divinity of Christ and the Holy Spirit, which are essential elements of the doctrine of the Holy Trinity. However, the Trinity itself—the understanding that God is one essence in three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)—is not explicitly taught in Scripture. Nowhere does the Bible state, in so many words, "God is Trinity," nor does it provide a detailed explanation of the relationship between the three persons of the Godhead.

The doctrine of the Trinity was developed and defined by the Church over several centuries, guided by the Holy Spirit working through the Ecumenical Councils. It was the Church’s reflection on Scripture within the context of Holy Tradition that allowed us to articulate this profound mystery of faith. For instance, terms like homoousios ("of the same essence"), used to describe the relationship between the Father and the Son, and the distinction between ousia (essence) and hypostasis (person), are not found in Scripture but were adopted by the Church to safeguard the truth revealed in Scripture.

This development highlights a critical point: Scripture alone is not sufficient to articulate or preserve the fullness of Christian truth. Without the Church’s authority, guided by the Holy Spirit, there would be no consensus on how to understand the divinity of Christ, the Holy Spirit, or their relationship to the Father. The history of heresies like Arianism, which denied Christ’s divinity, shows how easily Scripture can be misinterpreted without the clarifying guidance of Tradition.

Similarly, the veneration of icons is not explicitly commanded in Scripture, but it is part of the same Holy Tradition that defined the Trinity. The Church, through the Seventh Ecumenical Council, affirmed that honoring icons is consistent with the Incarnation—the mystery of the Word becoming flesh—and with the biblical principle of giving due honor to holy things (e.g., the Ark of the Covenant, the bronze serpent, and the temple).

If one accepts the doctrine of the Trinity, which relies on the authority of the Church and its Tradition to clarify truths not explicitly stated in Scripture, it is inconsistent to reject practices like the veneration of icons, which are rooted in the same Tradition.

 

[WIP]

when you worship Christ do you 'idolize' him?

Do you not believe that Christ is God?

Since you appear to be speaking from a Catholic perspective, although it doesn't make any difference, I'll quote from the New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition Bible.

For a child has been born for us,
a son given to us;
authority rests upon his shoulders;
and he is named
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6 NRSVCE


1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.

14 And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father’s only son, full of grace and truth.
John 1:1-2, 14 NRSVCE

57 Then the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, before Abraham was, I am.”
59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.
John 8:57-59 NRSVCE

Do you understand why the Jews wanted to stone Jesus? It was because He claimed to be God when He proclaimed, "Before Abraham was, I am." They fully understood what He was saying and to them for a man to claim to be God would be blasphemy. But the truth is that He was proclaiming the truth, and it was not blasphemous.

 

[WIP]

Because no one is worshipping the object. I get tired of repeating this.

But we are not to worship saints or angels either. Nor do we need mediators other than Christ himself.

5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
1 Timothy 2:5-6 NKJV

5 Then a voice came from the throne, saying, “Praise our God, all you His servants and those who fear Him, both small and great!”
9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’ ” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.”
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God!"
Revelation 19:5, 9-10 NKJV

 

[LanaPodesta]

Do you not believe that Christ is God?

Huh?

I'm not Catholic

 

[LanaPodesta]

But we are not to worship saints or angels either

No one is worshipping saints or angels.

 

[for_his_glory]

Thank you for the list of Scripture passages. They indeed point to the divinity of Christ and the Holy Spirit, which are essential elements of the doctrine of the Holy Trinity. However, the Trinity itself—the understanding that God is one essence in three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)—is not explicitly taught in Scripture. Nowhere does the Bible state, in so many words, "God is Trinity," nor does it provide a detailed explanation of the relationship between the three persons of the Godhead.

The doctrine of the Trinity was developed and defined by the Church over several centuries, guided by the Holy Spirit working through the Ecumenical Councils. It was the Church’s reflection on Scripture within the context of Holy Tradition that allowed us to articulate this profound mystery of faith. For instance, terms like homoousios ("of the same essence"), used to describe the relationship between the Father and the Son, and the distinction between ousia (essence) and hypostasis (person), are not found in Scripture but were adopted by the Church to safeguard the truth revealed in Scripture.

This development highlights a critical point: Scripture alone is not sufficient to articulate or preserve the fullness of Christian truth. Without the Church’s authority, guided by the Holy Spirit, there would be no consensus on how to understand the divinity of Christ, the Holy Spirit, or their relationship to the Father. The history of heresies like Arianism, which denied Christ’s divinity, shows how easily Scripture can be misinterpreted without the clarifying guidance of Tradition.

Similarly, the veneration of icons is not explicitly commanded in Scripture, but it is part of the same Holy Tradition that defined the Trinity. The Church, through the Seventh Ecumenical Council, affirmed that honoring icons is consistent with the Incarnation—the mystery of the Word becoming flesh—and with the biblical principle of giving due honor to holy things (e.g., the Ark of the Covenant, the bronze serpent, and the temple).

If one accepts the doctrine of the Trinity, which relies on the authority of the Church and its Tradition to clarify truths not explicitly stated in Scripture, it is inconsistent to reject practices like the veneration of icons, which are rooted in the same Tradition.

Wasn't going to do this, but here it is.

1. God is Spirit, John 4:24, not flesh and blood and in the OT either spoke directly to the prophets or by angels and also various objects like a burning bush or an ass for example. Between the OT and NT God was silent towards Israel as when they returned to Israel from the Babylonian captivity they came back as merchants and not shepherds as they were disobedient to God going after other gods, Book of Malachi.

2. Jesus being the very Spirit of God before the foundation of the world as He and the Father are one was prophesied by the Prophets in the OT and spoken of by John the Baptist in the NT as John being the forerunner of Christ calling all to repent. As foretold Christ did come as the word of God made flesh (skin, bone, blood) to be that light that shines in darkness. He came as redeemer Savior through Gods grace as Christ is our faith that all can repent of their sins and have eternal life with the Father to all who will believe in Him as Lord and Savior. John 1:1-4; 1 Peter 1:13-21

3. After the sacrifice of Christ God raised Him from the grave and as He had to ascend back up to heaven the promise was that He would never leave us or forsake us as when He ascended He sent down the Holy Spirit (Spirit of God) to indwell all who will believe in Christ and His finished works on the cross. In the OT Gods Spirit fell on them for a time and purpose under heaven. Now we are indwelled with that power and authority through Gods grace that the Holy Spirit now works in us and through us teaching all things God wants us to learn. All three are Spiritual and Spiritual awaking's in us to know the will of God and walk in His statures. John 16:7-15

Ephesians 4: 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit as all three coequal Gods Spirit.

Jesus being the right arm of God. Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Jesus is the word of God. John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Jesus is word, light and life that is God come in the flesh. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Gods Holy Spirit has come to indwell us and teach us. John 14: 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 John 5:7, 8, 20; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 13:14; Isaiah 9:6; 44:6; Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:23; 28:19; John 14:16, 17; Genesis 1:1, 2 (cross reference John 1:1-14); 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15-17; John 14:9-11; Philippians 2:5-8; Rev 1:8


Scriptures that refer the Holy Spirit as being God:
Psalms 139:7, 8; John 14:17; 16:13; Isaiah 40:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11; Zechariah 4:6; Luke 1:35; Ephesians 4:4-6; Romans 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21; Jude 1:20

 

[Hopeful 2]

By that logic when you worship Christ do you 'idolize' him?

There is no need to "idolize" a real person, so No, I do not idolize Him.
The idols of the bible were false gods.
People bowed to them and kissed them, and much more insanity.

We venerate saints not as mere "dead men" but as those who are alive in Christ. Jesus Himself teaches us that God is "not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him" (Luke 20:38). Saints are those who, having completed their earthly pilgrimage in holiness, now live eternally in the presence of God. They are our spiritual family, members of the Body of Christ, united with us through prayer and the grace of the Holy Spirit.

Until the day of judgement, they are dead men in graves, awaiting the resurrection on the last day.

The veneration of saints is not worship, which is due to God alone, but honor and reverence for their example of faith and virtue. In the same way that we might admire and learn from righteous people during their earthly lives, we honor saints as models of Christ-like living and as intercessors who pray for us before God's throne (Revelation 5:8; 8:3-4). This practice is supported by the Apostolic Tradition and the continuous life of the Church.

As Jesus is the only 'way' to Christ, depending on other intercessors is a waste of time.

Moreover, through the Incarnation, Christ has sanctified human nature, making it possible for human beings to participate in His divine life.

That being true, why do you need any other intercessor ?
Why not go to the throne of God yourself ? (Heb 4:16)

Saints are living witnesses to this transformation, showing us that holiness is not only possible but our ultimate calling. Venerating them is a way of glorifying God, who is "wonderful in His saints" (Psalm 68:35 LXX).

I can't agree.
Instead of venerating the accomplishments of Jesus and His Father, why not venerate the One who made holiness and sinlessness possible ?

Thus, when we venerate saints, we affirm our faith in the resurrection, the communion of saints, and the ongoing life and presence of the Church both on earth and in heaven. It is not about death but the triumph of life in Christ.

That sounds like an excuse to idolize pictures and false idols of stone and wood.
God has commanded us not to do what you have instituted into your religion.

 

[Hopeful 2]

No I'm not lol. I'm venerating its depiction.

That, is the definition of idolatry.

 

[Hopeful 2]

### 1. **Distinction Between Veneration and Worship**
Orthodox Christians do not worship icons; they venerate them. Worship (*latreia*) is due to God alone, while veneration (*proskynesis*) is a gesture of honor and respect that points to the person or reality represented by the icon. As St. John of Damascus explains:
*"I do not venerate matter, but I venerate the Creator of matter, who for my sake became material and deigned to dwell in matter, and through matter effected my salvation."*

To suggest that treating an object with reverence makes it an idol ignores the theological understanding that icons are windows to the divine, not ends in themselves.

---

### 2. **The Incarnation and the Sanctification of Matter**
The Incarnation of Christ radically transforms how Christians view the material world. When God took on flesh, He sanctified matter, making it a vessel for divine grace. Icons are an extension of this principle—they are not worshiped, but they are tools through which the faithful encounter God’s grace. To revere an icon is not idolatry but a recognition of God's ability to work through created things.

---

### 3. **Romans 2:22 in Context**
Romans 2:22 addresses hypocrisy, particularly among those who boast in the law while breaking it. St. Paul rebukes those who claim to abhor idols yet commit sacrilege by failing to live according to God's commandments. This verse is not a condemnation of veneration but a warning against duplicity and self-righteousness.

---

### 4. **"Toss It in the Dumpster" Argument**
The argument that something is an idol if it cannot be discarded misunderstands the nature of sacred objects. The Church teaches that icons, consecrated vessels, or even Scripture itself should not be treated casually or disrespectfully. This is not idolatry but reverence for what they signify.

For example:
- Christians would not toss a Bible into the trash, not because the paper and ink are "idols," but because the Bible represents God’s Word.
- Similarly, Orthodox Christians treat icons with respect because they are expressions of holy realities, not because the materials themselves are worshiped.

The idea that reverence equals idolatry fails to account for this fundamental distinction.

---

### 5. **The Biblical and Patristic Foundation for Icons**
The early Church recognized the value of material things in worship, as evidenced by:
- God’s command to create the Ark of the Covenant with cherubim (Exodus 25:18-22).
- The use of sacred art in the Temple (1 Kings 6:29).

The veneration of icons was affirmed at the Seventh Ecumenical Council (787 AD), which declared that honoring icons is not idolatry but a proper way to honor Christ and His saints.

---

### 6. **Holiness Is Not Idolatry**
To "endue holiness" to something like an icon is not idolatry but an acknowledgment of its purpose in leading us to God. Holiness is not intrinsic to the wood or paint but comes from its use in the liturgical and prayer life of the Church. The reverence shown to icons reflects the reverence given to Christ and His saints.

You are wasting your excuses to disobey God on me.

 

[for_his_glory]

Because no one is worshipping the object. I get tired of repeating this.

But many do worship and bow down to the objects as that is idol worshiping and comes against God's commandment not to make graven images and bow down to them.

 

[for_his_glory]

My point is if you accept the Trinity, you accept something extra-scriptural, something from the Holy Tradition of the Church. If you can accept the Trinity, you can accept the kissing of icons, something which Christians were doing centuries before the birth of Martin Luther.

I gave you the scriptures about the Trinity that is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but you choose to ignore and not read or study them. They are not extra scriptural, nor traditional, but that being the word of God.