Is it wrong to kiss icons?

[for_his_glory]

I'm not derailing this thread by mentioning the Triune God. Icons must never replace that true God, which is my point.

That post was for LanaPodesta

 

[Free]

My point is if you accept the Trinity, you accept something extra-scriptural, something from the Holy Tradition of the Church. If you can accept the Trinity, you can accept the kissing of icons, something which Christians were doing centuries before the birth of Martin Luther.

This is a false analogy. The doctrine of the Trinity was formulated by the Church, however, the foundations of the Trinity are very much biblical:

1. There is only one God.
2. There are three distinct, divine persons--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
3. The three persons are coequal and coeternal.

Both the making of icons and the kissing of icons are purely extra-biblical; they have no foundation in Scripture.

 

[WIP]

But many do worship and bow down to the objects as that is idol worshiping and comes against God's commandment not to make graven images and bow down to them.

I have witnessed this often, particularly when I was a member of the Catholic church. People wear pendants representing saints, angels, or even a cross around their neck and would grab hold of them, kiss them, and/or pray to them when they felt the need. People would have small statues of "Mary", "Joseph", or other saints or angels, on the dash of their car and pray for them to protect them while they are driving. People would come into the church and kneel before statues of "Mary" or "Joseph" and pray to them. People have their favorite patron saints of the day and pray to them for whatever they support. For example, praying to St. Thomas Aquinas for protection during storms.

I enjoy listening to a morning call-in talk show on The Catholic Channel on Sirius radio and almost every day there is mention of the patron saint of the day and people call in asking for prayers to those saints.

We don't need an intermediary between us and God except for Jesus himself for when Jesus died on that cross, the wall of separation was removed for those who are in Christ. This was evidenced by the curtain in the temple separating the Holy of Holies being ripped in two. We now have the best and only mediator in the Christ, Jesus, as Paul told Timothy, "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all." (1 Timothy 2:5-6 NKJV)

People can convince themselves that they are not praying to them or worshipping them but they truly are.

 

[LanaPodesta]

I have witnessed this often, particularly when I was a member of the Catholic church. People wear pendants representing saints, angels, or even a cross around their neck and would grab hold of them, kiss them, and/or pray to them when they felt the need. People would have small statues of "Mary", "Joseph", or other saints or angels, on the dash of their car and pray for them to protect them while they are driving. People would come into the church and kneel before statues of "Mary" or "Joseph" and pray to them. People have their favorite patron saints of the day and pray to them for whatever they support. For example, praying to St. Thomas Aquinas for protection during storms.

I enjoy listening to a morning call-in talk show on The Catholic Channel on Sirius radio and almost every day there is mention of the patron saint of the day and people call in asking for prayers to those saints.

We don't need an intermediary between us and God except for Jesus himself for when Jesus died on that cross, the wall of separation was removed for those who are in Christ. This was evidenced by the curtain in the temple separating the Holy of Holies being ripped in two. We now have the best and only mediator in the Christ, Jesus, as Paul told Timothy, "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all." (1 Timothy 2:5-6 NKJV)

People can convince themselves that they are not praying to them or worshipping them but they truly are.

It's not exactly a secret

 

[LanaPodesta]

This is a false analogy. The doctrine of the Trinity was formulated by the Church, however, the foundations of the Trinity are very much biblical:

1. There is only one God.
2. There are three distinct, divine persons--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
3. The three persons are coequal and coeternal.

Both the making of icons and the kissing of icons are purely extra-biblical; they have no foundation in Scripture.

1. Your argument rests on a false dichotomy and a misunderstanding of both Scripture and Tradition. Let me explain:
   1. False dichotomy: You claim that the Trinity is grounded in Scripture while the veneration of icons is "purely extra-biblical." This is misleading. The explicit formulation of the Trinity is not found in Scripture; it was developed through the Church’s Holy Tradition, guided by the Holy Spirit. Terms like homoousios (used in the Nicene Creed) are entirely absent from the Bible. If you accept the Church's authority to articulate the Trinity, you cannot arbitrarily reject the authority of the same Church to uphold other elements of Tradition, such as the veneration of icons.
   2. Straw man fallacy: You conflate the veneration of icons with idolatry, implying that they are "purely extra-biblical" and have no foundation in Scripture. This ignores the biblical principles that support icon veneration. For instance:
      • In Exodus 25:18-22, God commanded the creation of cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant, physical objects used in worship. Were these idols? No, because they were not worshiped but venerated as symbols of God's presence.
      • Honor (proskynesis) is distinct from worship (latreia). The Church has always made this distinction, as clarified at the Seventh Ecumenical Council (787 AD).
   3. Historical ignorance: You dismiss icon veneration as an invention, ignoring its roots in the early Church. Christians have been venerating icons since at least the third century, well before the Council of Nicaea (325 AD) formalized Trinitarian doctrine. Icons are a natural outgrowth of the Incarnation: if God became flesh, material things can participate in and reflect His glory.
   4. Special pleading: You accept the Church's authority to discern the Trinity while rejecting the same authority in matters like icon veneration. This selective trust is inconsistent. If the Church was Spirit-guided in developing the doctrine of the Trinity, why would it suddenly err in affirming icons, especially when this practice was upheld at an Ecumenical Council?
   5. Biblical myopia: Your assertion that "making and kissing icons are purely extra-biblical" is not only false but also shows an overly rigid interpretation of Scripture. Not everything Christians do must be explicitly detailed in the Bible; the Bible itself does not claim to be the sole rule of faith (sola scriptura is a post-Reformation invention). The apostles taught much orally (2 Thessalonians 2:15), and the Church is the "pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Timothy 3:15).
   In conclusion, your argument collapses under its own inconsistency. If you reject the veneration of icons as extra-biblical, you must also reject the Trinity, for its articulation relies on the same Tradition you disparage. If you truly believe in the authority of Scripture and the early Church, then you must accept that icon veneration, like the Trinity, is part of the fullness of the Christian faith.
   
   

 

[Free]

1. Your argument rests on a false dichotomy and a misunderstanding of both Scripture and Tradition. Let me explain:
   1. False dichotomy: You claim that the Trinity is grounded in Scripture while the veneration of icons is "purely extra-biblical." This is misleading. The explicit formulation of the Trinity is not found in Scripture; it was developed through the Church’s Holy Tradition, guided by the Holy Spirit. Terms like homoousios (used in the Nicene Creed) are entirely absent from the Bible. If you accept the Church's authority to articulate the Trinity, you cannot arbitrarily reject the authority of the same Church to uphold other elements of Tradition, such as the veneration of icons.

Where is the false dichotomy? Yes, I can reject "the authority of the same Church to uphold other elements of Tradition, such as the veneration of icons," precisely because my rejection isn't arbitrary. That the "explicit formulation of the Trinity is not found in Scripture," is not relevant, since the foundations are there and those are really all we need.

1. Straw man fallacy: You conflate the veneration of icons with idolatry, implying that they are "purely extra-biblical" and have no foundation in Scripture. This ignores the biblical principles that support icon veneration. For instance:
   • In Exodus 25:18-22, God commanded the creation of cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant, physical objects used in worship. Were these idols? No, because they were not worshiped but venerated as symbols of God's presence.
   • Honor (proskynesis) is distinct from worship (latreia). The Church has always made this distinction, as clarified at the Seventh Ecumenical Council (787 AD).

Please show where I mentioned idolatry, or conflated "the veneration of icons with idolatry." If you can't, then it is you who just setup the straw man, not I.

1. 1. Historical ignorance: You dismiss icon veneration as an invention, ignoring its roots in the early Church. Christians have been venerating icons since at least the third century, well before the Council of Nicaea (325 AD) formalized Trinitarian doctrine. Icons are a natural outgrowth of the Incarnation: if God became flesh, material things can participate in and reflect His glory.

You just said so yourself--"since at least the third century." That supports that it is extra-biblical, which is what I said. And, you didn't provide any evidence to show that it was biblical. So, by definition, it is "an invention," as you say. Your own refutation shoots itself in the foot.

1. Special pleading: You accept the Church's authority to discern the Trinity while rejecting the same authority in matters like icon veneration. This selective trust is inconsistent. If the Church was Spirit-guided in developing the doctrine of the Trinity,

Yes, because, as I said, the foundations of the doctrine of the Trinity are biblical, but there is nothing biblical about making or kissing icons. The foundations that are given in Scripture are really all we need, but the philosophy of the formulation just helps in thinking about it and discussing it.

1. why would it suddenly err in affirming icons, especially when this practice was upheld at an Ecumenical Council?

Really? Do you really think that everything the Catholic Church decided on was guided by the Spirit? Selling of indulgences anyone?

1. Biblical myopia: Your assertion that "making and kissing icons are purely extra-biblical" is not only false but also shows an overly rigid interpretation of Scripture. Not everything Christians do must be explicitly detailed in the Bible; the Bible itself does not claim to be the sole rule of faith (sola scriptura is a post-Reformation invention). The apostles taught much orally (2 Thessalonians 2:15), and the Church is the "pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Timothy 3:15).

Okay, then show me where the making and kissing of icons is in the Bible. How is the statement that "making and kissing icons are purely extra-biblical" false? Everything for the life and practice of the believer in regards to salvation and the Church must be shown in Scripture, otherwise it is, by definition, extra-biblical. Once again, your own counter-argument shoots itself in the foot.

In conclusion, your argument collapses under its own inconsistency. If you reject the veneration of icons as extra-biblical, you must also reject the Trinity, for its articulation relies on the same Tradition you disparage. If you truly believe in the authority of Scripture and the early Church, then you must accept that icon veneration, like the Trinity, is part of the fullness of the Christian faith.

You haven't shown any inconsistency, just a very poor use of logic.

 

[LanaPodesta]

since the foundations are there and those are really all we need.

Lmao. You wouldn't have the idea of the Trinity without the Church. It only exists in scripture implicitly. It would not be identified by anyone reading the Bible at face value.

Really? Do you really think that everything the Catholic Church decided on was guided by the Spirit? Selling of indulgences anyone?

No, because I'm not Catholic.

 

[Free]

Lmao. You wouldn't have the idea of the Trinity without the Church. It only exists in scripture implicitly. It would not be identified by anyone reading the Bible at face value.

It would, and it has, otherwise "the Church" would never have thought of it either.

No, because I'm not Catholic.

You just undermined all of your own arguments.

 

[LanaPodesta]

It would, and it has, otherwise "the Church" would never have thought of it either.

You realise the Church was founded by Christ Himself and established on Earth by His Apostles?

You just undermined all of your own arguments.

How so

 

[follower]

Icons are pictorial representations of Biblical scenes from the life of Jesus Christ, historical events in the life of the Church, and portraits of the Saints. They are usually two-dimensional images that can be made of paint, mosaic, embroidery, carving, engraving, or other methods.

It is sinful. (as stated in Scripture, in harmony with the Creator and His Plan)

 

[LanaPodesta]

It is sinful. (as stated in Scripture, in harmony with the Creator and His Plan)

Where does it say in scripture that kissing icons is sinful?

 

[LanaPodesta]

Wasn't going to do this, but here it is.

1. God is Spirit, John 4:24, not flesh and blood and in the OT either spoke directly to the prophets or by angels and also various objects like a burning bush or an ass for example. Between the OT and NT God was silent towards Israel as when they returned to Israel from the Babylonian captivity they came back as merchants and not shepherds as they were disobedient to God going after other gods, Book of Malachi.

2. Jesus being the very Spirit of God before the foundation of the world as He and the Father are one was prophesied by the Prophets in the OT and spoken of by John the Baptist in the NT as John being the forerunner of Christ calling all to repent. As foretold Christ did come as the word of God made flesh (skin, bone, blood) to be that light that shines in darkness. He came as redeemer Savior through Gods grace as Christ is our faith that all can repent of their sins and have eternal life with the Father to all who will believe in Him as Lord and Savior. John 1:1-4; 1 Peter 1:13-21

3. After the sacrifice of Christ God raised Him from the grave and as He had to ascend back up to heaven the promise was that He would never leave us or forsake us as when He ascended He sent down the Holy Spirit (Spirit of God) to indwell all who will believe in Christ and His finished works on the cross. In the OT Gods Spirit fell on them for a time and purpose under heaven. Now we are indwelled with that power and authority through Gods grace that the Holy Spirit now works in us and through us teaching all things God wants us to learn. All three are Spiritual and Spiritual awaking's in us to know the will of God and walk in His statures. John 16:7-15

Ephesians 4: 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit as all three coequal Gods Spirit.

Jesus being the right arm of God. Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Jesus is the word of God. John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Jesus is word, light and life that is God come in the flesh. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Gods Holy Spirit has come to indwell us and teach us. John 14: 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 John 5:7, 8, 20; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 13:14; Isaiah 9:6; 44:6; Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:23; 28:19; John 14:16, 17; Genesis 1:1, 2 (cross reference John 1:1-14); 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15-17; John 14:9-11; Philippians 2:5-8; Rev 1:8


Scriptures that refer the Holy Spirit as being God:
Psalms 139:7, 8; John 14:17; 16:13; Isaiah 40:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11; Zechariah 4:6; Luke 1:35; Ephesians 4:4-6; Romans 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21; Jude 1:20

The doctrine of the Trinity, while central to Christianity, is not explicitly outlined in the Bible in a systematic way. Instead, it emerged from centuries of theological reflection on the biblical text and the experiences of the early Christian community. This can explain why the Trinity, as a fully developed doctrine, may not be immediately apparent at face value in Scripture.

1. Development of Doctrine​

The understanding of the Trinity grew over time as the early Church wrestled with questions about the nature of God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. While the Bible provides the foundational material for the doctrine, it was through debates, councils, and theological reflection that the concept was formally articulated.

• For example, terms like homoousios ("of the same essence") used in the Nicene Creed (AD 325) to describe the relationship between the Father and the Son are not found in the Bible. These terms were developed to clarify the Church's teaching in response to heresies like Arianism.

2. Implicit Biblical Basis​

The Bible contains numerous passages that hint at the triune nature of God, but they are scattered throughout and require interpretation to be understood as a cohesive doctrine.

• Father: "Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live" (1 Cor. 8:6).
• Son: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1).
• Holy Spirit: "The Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things" (John 14:26).

These verses provide pieces of the puzzle but do not explicitly present a doctrine of "three persons in one God."

3. The Bible's Narrative Nature​

The Bible is primarily a narrative of God’s relationship with humanity and His plan for salvation. It reveals God through His actions—creating, redeeming, and sanctifying—rather than providing systematic theological definitions. The concept of the Trinity emerged as the early Church synthesized these scriptural accounts into a coherent understanding of God's nature.

4. Use of Extra-Biblical Language​

The language used to describe the Trinity (e.g., essence, person, nature) comes from philosophical traditions, especially Greek thought. These terms were adopted by the Church as tools to articulate the biblical truths about God in ways that addressed specific theological challenges.

• For instance, the Bible does not use the term "Trinity," yet the Church used this term to summarize the biblical depiction of God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

5. The Church as the Interpreter of Scripture​

In early Christianity, the Church served as the interpreter of Scripture, guided by the experiences and teachings passed down from the apostles. The Church reflected on the Bible’s teachings to form a coherent doctrine of the Trinity, especially when faced with misunderstandings or heresies.

• As Jesus said, "When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth" (John 16:13). This guidance is seen as necessary for understanding the Bible’s implicit teachings.

 

[LanaPodesta]

I would think

This is the issue with non-Apostolic Christians. You refer only to your own interpretation of Scripture.

 

[LanaPodesta]

There is no need to "idolize" a real person, so No, I do not idolize Him.

So don't use synonyms of 'venerate' to conflate worship, veneration, and idolatry.

The idols of the bible were false gods.
People bowed to them and kissed them, and much more insanity.

Okay? I worship the Trinity, no others gods.

That sounds like an excuse to idolize pictures and false idols of stone and wood.
God has commanded us not to do what you have instituted into your religion.

Fine. Show me Scripture where it says it is wrong to kiss icons.

 

[for_his_glory]

The doctrine of the Trinity, while central to Christianity, is not explicitly outlined in the Bible in a systematic way. Instead, it emerged from centuries of theological reflection on the biblical text and the experiences of the early Christian community. This can explain why the Trinity, as a fully developed doctrine, may not be immediately apparent at face value in Scripture.

1. Development of Doctrine​

The understanding of the Trinity grew over time as the early Church wrestled with questions about the nature of God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. While the Bible provides the foundational material for the doctrine, it was through debates, councils, and theological reflection that the concept was formally articulated.

• For example, terms like homoousios ("of the same essence") used in the Nicene Creed (AD 325) to describe the relationship between the Father and the Son are not found in the Bible. These terms were developed to clarify the Church's teaching in response to heresies like Arianism.

2. Implicit Biblical Basis​

The Bible contains numerous passages that hint at the triune nature of God, but they are scattered throughout and require interpretation to be understood as a cohesive doctrine.

• Father: "Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live" (1 Cor. 8:6).
• Son: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1).
• Holy Spirit: "The Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things" (John 14:26).

These verses provide pieces of the puzzle but do not explicitly present a doctrine of "three persons in one God."

3. The Bible's Narrative Nature​

The Bible is primarily a narrative of God’s relationship with humanity and His plan for salvation. It reveals God through His actions—creating, redeeming, and sanctifying—rather than providing systematic theological definitions. The concept of the Trinity emerged as the early Church synthesized these scriptural accounts into a coherent understanding of God's nature.

4. Use of Extra-Biblical Language​

The language used to describe the Trinity (e.g., essence, person, nature) comes from philosophical traditions, especially Greek thought. These terms were adopted by the Church as tools to articulate the biblical truths about God in ways that addressed specific theological challenges.

• For instance, the Bible does not use the term "Trinity," yet the Church used this term to summarize the biblical depiction of God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

5. The Church as the Interpreter of Scripture​

In early Christianity, the Church served as the interpreter of Scripture, guided by the experiences and teachings passed down from the apostles. The Church reflected on the Bible’s teachings to form a coherent doctrine of the Trinity, especially when faced with misunderstandings or heresies.

• As Jesus said, "When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth" (John 16:13). This guidance is seen as necessary for understanding the Bible’s implicit teachings.

It would do you well to stay away from certain websites that error in their carnal understandings. We have given you the scriptures, even though the word Trinity itself is not found in scripture, but is explained in scripture. There are many words we use that are not found in scripture, like the word Rapture, but scripture explains what being caught up to Christ is all about.

 

[for_his_glory]

I have witnessed this often, particularly when I was a member of the Catholic church. People wear pendants representing saints, angels, or even a cross around their neck and would grab hold of them, kiss them, and/or pray to them when they felt the need. People would have small statues of "Mary", "Joseph", or other saints or angels, on the dash of their car and pray for them to protect them while they are driving. People would come into the church and kneel before statues of "Mary" or "Joseph" and pray to them. People have their favorite patron saints of the day and pray to them for whatever they support. For example, praying to St. Thomas Aquinas for protection during storms.

I enjoy listening to a morning call-in talk show on The Catholic Channel on Sirius radio and almost every day there is mention of the patron saint of the day and people call in asking for prayers to those saints.

We don't need an intermediary between us and God except for Jesus himself for when Jesus died on that cross, the wall of separation was removed for those who are in Christ. This was evidenced by the curtain in the temple separating the Holy of Holies being ripped in two. We now have the best and only mediator in the Christ, Jesus, as Paul told Timothy, "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all." (1 Timothy 2:5-6 NKJV)

People can convince themselves that they are not praying to them or worshipping them but they truly are.

I can't understand why so many refuse God's explicit commandment.

Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

 

[LanaPodesta]

even though the word Trinity itself is not found in scripture

So where did the word come from?

There are many words we use that are not found in scripture

So scripture is not the ultimate authority.

 

[LanaPodesta]

I can't understand why so many refuse God's explicit commandment

Where does it say anything about kissing or icons?

 

[Hopeful 2]

So don't use synonyms of 'venerate' to conflate worship, veneration, and idolatry.

Context is needed to un-conflate the definitions.
Worshipping God is one thing, but worshipping sticks and stones is idolatry.

Okay? I worship the Trinity, no others gods.

Then you should have no trouble ridding yourself of "sacred pictures".

Fine. Show me Scripture where it says it is wrong to kiss icons.

The word "icon" is not in the KJ bible, so I will use the word "idol".
It is written..."Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God." (Lev 26:1)
A thing is an idol if it is called "sacred".
It is written..."Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands." (Ps 115:4) That would seem to cover "paintings" too.

I was enabled to flee the idolatry of the church I once attended, and God rewarded me with a real church.
He will do the same for you.

 

[for_his_glory]

So where did the word come from?

So scripture is not the ultimate authority.

Trinity is an English word that means the state of being three in unity. The unity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead. The doctrine of the Trinity is considered to be one of the central Christian affirmations about God as I have shown you with scripture and our belief here at CF if you would read the statement of faith you can find at the top of the home page.

Some religions that are not of God and do not believe in the Trinity are: Oneness Pentecostalism, Jehovah Witness, Unitarian Church, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints, La Luz del Mundo, and Iglesia ni Cristo to name a few.

Are you from one of these assemblies?