Is Jehovah's Witness a Christian belief?

[seekandlisten]

Whether their beliefs differ or not doesn't matter.

It matter greatly and that is the danger of the tremendous error you are perpetuating.

What exactly is this 'tremendous error' I'm 'perpetuating'? That JW's fall under the religion of 'christianity'? Did you read the earlier definition?

 

[seekandlisten]

I wasn't going to respond, but I must counter what is offered as 'matter of fact' truth when it is not. Due note that this topic is for whether JW's are 'christian' not 'do I agree with JW's beliefs'.

The point is you can't use 'physical' terms in an analogy about 'spiritual' matters.

Who said?! Jesus did it all the time! They are called parables! Oh, my! :biglaugh

Jesus was far wiser than you or I.

We cannot 'prove' God exists plain and simple. That is why we have this thing called faith.

Your faith IS the proof!

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

My faith is my proof, your faith is your proof. However this does not mean that your faith can become my proof.

You are pretty much saying that JW's are not a 'christian' belief because of the 'supposed fact' that Jesus is God.

Jesus Himself claimed He was God so it's not a 'supposed fact.'

Mat 19:16 ¶ And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Jesus was telling the man that by calling Him 'good' He was calling Him God!!!!!!

I would disagree and think that is quite the stretch especially with all the other available arguments. But this is not the point of the thread.

That would be more an issue of JW vs Protestant views. Both still fall under 'christianity'.

If someone doesn't believe Jesus is God they they aren't part of the Christian faith. This isn't a case of being "a little bit pregant". One either believes Jesus Christ is God or they don't.

This isn't a matter of who is right and who is wrong but a matter of whether JW's are under the category of 'christians' as in the religion.

You believe Jesus is equal to the Father, I don't yet I know we are talking about the same Jesus.

You aren't talking about the same Jesus. Jesus states, plainly, He is one with the Father.

What about all the passages that 'plainly' make the distinction between Jesus and the Father? Again for another topic.

You just have a different opinion of him.

You can't be a little pregnant! Reject the deity of Christ and you reject Him as your Savior.

John 18:8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am [he]: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:

I don't reject Jesus as my Savior so your statement is false.

 

[RND]

I wasn't going to respond, but I must counter what is offered as 'matter of fact' truth when it is not. Due note that this topic is for whether JW's are 'christian' not 'do I agree with JW's beliefs'.

Then you are claiming I'm a liar. Nice.

The point is you can't use 'physical' terms in an analogy about 'spiritual' matters.

Who said?! Jesus did it all the time! They are called parables! Oh, my! :biglaugh

Jesus was far wiser than you or I.

The fact of the matter is that it is perfectly fine to use physical realities to illustrate spiritual matters.

[quote:2ks971ob]We cannot 'prove' God exists plain and simple. That is why we have this thing called faith.

Your faith IS the proof!

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

My faith is my proof, your faith is your proof. However this does not mean that your faith can become my proof.[/quote:2ks971ob] I didn't suggest that. I suggested that the faith on has in the God of the Holy Bible is proof that He exists.

[quote:2ks971ob]You are pretty much saying that JW's are not a 'christian' belief because of the 'supposed fact' that Jesus is God.

Jesus Himself claimed He was God so it's not a 'supposed fact.'

Mat 19:16 ¶ And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Jesus was telling the man that by calling Him 'good' He was calling Him God!!!!!!

I would disagree and think that is quite the stretch especially with all the other available arguments. But this is not the point of the thread.[/quote:2ks971ob] Of course you would disagree. But the fact remains that Jesus was indeed telling the man that by calling Him 'good' He was calling Him God!!!!!!

[quote:2ks971ob] That would be more an issue of JW vs Protestant views. Both still fall under 'christianity'.

If someone doesn't believe Jesus is God they they aren't part of the Christian faith. This isn't a case of being "a little bit pregant". One either believes Jesus Christ is God or they don't.

This isn't a matter of who is right and who is wrong but a matter of whether JW's are under the category of 'christians' as in the religion.[/quote:2ks971ob] JW's, just like Mormon's aren't Christians. Mormon's believe that they will appear ing the judgment before Jesus and Joseph Smith.

[quote:2ks971ob] You believe Jesus is equal to the Father, I don't yet I know we are talking about the same Jesus.

You aren't talking about the same Jesus. Jesus states, plainly, He is one with the Father.

What about all the passages that 'plainly' make the distinction between Jesus and the Father? Again for another topic.[/quote:2ks971ob] What about them?

[quote:2ks971ob] You just have a different opinion of him.

You can't be a little pregnant! Reject the deity of Christ and you reject Him as your Savior.

John 18:8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am [he]: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:

I don't reject Jesus as my Savior so your statement is false.[/quote:2ks971ob][/quote] You reject His deity.

 

[RND]

Whether their beliefs differ or not doesn't matter.

It matter greatly and that is the danger of the tremendous error you are perpetuating.

What exactly is this 'tremendous error' I'm 'perpetuating'?

That beliefs don't matter.

That JW's fall under the religion of 'christianity'? Did you read the earlier definition?

The error you are perpetuating is that what we believe about Jesus doesn't matter. It matters greatly. Believing Jesus is a created angel and brother of Satan as JW's and Mormon's do is found no where is the Holy Scriptures. If anyone believes that Jesus was created vs. being always with the Father then they are perpetuating error and falsehood.

 

[seekandlisten]

Then you are claiming I'm a liar. Nice.

ummm....no. I was putting forth that your opinion/belief is not a 'matter of fact' truth it is just merely your opinion.

The fact of the matter is that it is perfectly fine to use physical realities to illustrate spiritual matters.

When relevant.

I didn't suggest that. I suggested that the faith on has in the God of the Holy Bible is proof that He exists.

And I presented that your faith that God exists doesn't substitute for proof when talking to someone who doesn't believe God exists. That is where we can't 'prove' God exists.

JW's, just like Mormon's aren't Christians. Mormon's believe that they will appear ing the judgment before Jesus and Joseph Smith.

Of course there is going to be different beliefs hence the different names and divisions. Did you read the definition of a 'christian'? Do JW's and Mormons believe in Jesus? They are then 'christians'.

What about all the passages that 'plainly' make the distinction between Jesus and the Father? Again for another topic.

What about them?

Do you just disregard them?

I don't reject Jesus as my Savior so your statement is false.[quote:p9juwvug]You reject His deity.

[/quote:p9juwvug]

I don't believe that Jesus is equal to the Father but that has nothing to do with rejecting Jesus as my Savior. This also has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

 

[Free]

A belief in the trinity doesn't make one a 'christian'. A 'protestant' or 'catholic' sure but not a 'christian.' JW's could be called christians just like any other religion that believes in Christ.

A definition of 'christian':

- relating to or characteristic of Christianity; "Christian rites"
- a religious person who believes Jesus is the Christ and who is a member of a Christian denomination
- following the teachings or manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus Christ

So unless we are under the impression that only catholics, eastern orthodox, and protestants are the only one's that can be 'christians' I would say anyone who falls under the definition above would be considered a 'christian'.

I agree.

On what basis? I have shown that his "definition" merely begs the question.

 

[seekandlisten]

What exactly is this 'tremendous error' I'm 'perpetuating'?

That beliefs don't matter.

Well let's go back to this quote of mine you used. What was the sentence before the quote. In reference to the topic of this thread I said: "This one is whether or not JW is a 'christian' belief. Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox, Mormons, JW's, etc. would all fall under the religion of 'christianity'." So it is not merely beliefs don't matter. It's that there is going to be differing beliefs amongst the subdivisions of 'christianity'. These differing beliefs do not exclude someone from the term 'christian' according to the definition I presented earlier in this thread which I'm assuming you still haven't looked at.

The error you are perpetuating is that what we believe about Jesus doesn't matter. It matters greatly. Believing Jesus is a created angel and brother of Satan as JW's and Mormon's do is found no where is the Holy Scriptures. If anyone believes that Jesus was created vs. being always with the Father then they are perpetuating error and falsehood.

Well for starters, I don't believe Jesus was created. He was born of Mary. Secondly, I don't agree with all the beliefs of the JW's either but that doesn't exclude them from the definition of a 'christian'.

 

[seekandlisten]

A belief in the trinity doesn't make one a 'christian'. A 'protestant' or 'catholic' sure but not a 'christian.' JW's could be called christians just like any other religion that believes in Christ.

A definition of 'christian':

- relating to or characteristic of Christianity; "Christian rites"
- a religious person who believes Jesus is the Christ and who is a member of a Christian denomination
- following the teachings or manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus ChristSo unless we are under the impression that only catholics, eastern orthodox, and protestants are the only one's that can be 'christians' I would say anyone who falls under the definition above would be considered a 'christian'.

I agree.

On what basis? I have shown that his "definition" merely begs the question.

JW's and mormons both read the bible, both believe in Jesus, so I would say they have 'characteristics' or 'follow the teachings' correct??

 

[RND]

ummm....no. I was putting forth that your opinion/belief is not a 'matter of fact' truth it is just merely your opinion.

You said: "I wasn't going to respond, but I must counter what is offered as 'matter of fact' truth when it is not. Due note that this topic is for whether JW's are 'christian' not 'do I agree with JW's beliefs'."

You suggested, plainly that what I offered was "'matter of fact' truth when it is not." That means you don't believe I was offering truth so therefore I must be a liar.

When relevant.

Ah! So you are changing your tune! Good for you! In this case the analogy's offered were extremely relevant and clear.

And I presented that your faith that God exists doesn't substitute for proof when talking to someone who doesn't believe God exists.

That is indicative of another's "lack of faith" not on the existence of God. Paul clearly states that God has presented all the necessary physical evidence that God exists.

That is where we can't 'prove' God exists.

We can prove God exists by the physical surroundings of our world and universe. Scriptures tell us this. Your 'false religion' however seems to want to reject this.

Of course there is going to be different beliefs hence the different names and divisions.

Not those that line up with the Bible as closely as possible.

Did you read the definition of a 'christian'?

Yes.

Do JW's and Mormons believe in Jesus?

No, they do not believe in the Jesus of Holy Writ.

They are then 'christians'.

Nope. They are false apostates.

Do you just disregard them?

Nope. Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit are three entities that make up the Godhead.

I don't believe that Jesus is equal to the Father

Then you reject the word of Christ Himself which makes you an apostate.

but that has nothing to do with rejecting Jesus as my Savior.

Well as long as you believe that then all I can do is point out how your beliefs are contrary to scripture.

This also has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

I didn't bring it up. It was being discussed when I got here.

 

[RND]

Well let's go back to this quote of mine you used. What was the sentence before the quote. In reference to the topic of this thread I said: "This one is whether or not JW is a 'christian' belief. Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox, Mormons, JW's, etc. would all fall under the religion of 'christianity'." So it is not merely beliefs don't matter. It's that there is going to be differing beliefs amongst the subdivisions of 'christianity'. These differing beliefs do not exclude someone from the term 'christian' according to the definition I presented earlier in this thread which I'm assuming you still haven't looked at.

You are merely describing the 'watering down' of the term and identifying moniker Christianity.

Well for starters, I don't believe Jesus was created. He was born of Mary.

As a Mormon I presume you know Mormon's believe God had sex with Mary and thus Jesus was created.

Secondly, I don't agree with all the beliefs of the JW's either but that doesn't exclude them from the definition of a 'christian'.

This is where the analogy's that were provided earlier come in handy. Just cause you call yourself a Christian doesn't make you one. I can say I'm the President of the US all day long, it doesn't make me President.

 

[RND]

JW's and mormons both read the bible,

The JW's have re-written the Bible to fit their belief system and Mormon's believe that the Book of Mormon is of greater weight and significance that the Bible.

both believe in Jesus,

Not the Jesus of the Bible.

so I would say they have 'characteristics' or 'follow the teachings' correct??

you can say anything you want.

 

[seekandlisten]

You suggested, plainly that what I offered was "'matter of fact' truth when it is not." That means you don't believe I was offering truth so therefore I must be a liar.

Yet I just corrected your assumption and you still degrade my character as to calling you a liar.

And I presented that your faith that God exists doesn't substitute for proof when talking to someone who doesn't believe God exists.

That is indicative of another's "lack of faith" not on the existence of God. Paul clearly states that God has presented all the necessary physical evidence that God exists.

[quote:3tlzybg2]That is where we can't 'prove' God exists.

We can prove God exists by the physical surroundings of our world and universe. Scriptures tell us this. Your 'false religion' however seems to want to reject this.[/quote:3tlzybg2]

Did I say God didn't exist?? I was trying to present how if someone(not me) doesn't believe in God, we can no longer proove to them that God does in fact exist when it all comes down to it. The only proof we'll have is when we are getting judged.

Of course there is going to be different beliefs hence the different names and divisions.

Not those that line up with the Bible as closely as possible.

[quote:3tlzybg2] Do JW's and Mormons believe in Jesus?

No, they do not believe in the Jesus of Holy Writ.

They are then 'christians'.

Nope. They are false apostates.

Do you just disregard them?

Nope. Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit are three entities that make up the Godhead. [/quote:3tlzybg2]

Well here you are splitting over different beliefs not the definition so what do you want me to say.

I don't believe that Jesus is equal to the Father

Then you reject the word of Christ Himself which makes you an apostate.

I'll let God be the judge.

but that has nothing to do with rejecting Jesus as my Savior.

Well as long as you believe that then all I can do is point out how your beliefs are contrary to scripture.

My beliefs are irrelevant as we are talking about JW's

 

[Free]

So you would say that only those who believe as the catholics, eastern orthodox, and protestants do are 'christians'?

They are the main Christian groups, yes, but not everyone in them is a Christian and there are perhaps a few other groups as well.

So what determines whether or not someone is a christian then? If not everyone who agrees with a religion is not truly a part of that religion why should I be a part of the religion if that really isn't the whole part of it?

Many of your answers are circular, like this one.

Mormons and JW's can't be christians even though they believe in Jesus they just don't do in the same way you do it?

Yes, and this is my whole point. Jesus is who he is and not someone he is not. He is either God or he is not. You have greatly trivialized something that is of the utmost importance. As soon as the deity of Jesus is thrown out the window, so goes any fixed reference for determining who is a Christian, a follower of the true Christ. And that is very problematic for many reasons, not to mention that who Jesus is is closely tied in with salvation in Scripture.

But the belief that Jesus is God Himself is only based on opinion as much as I'm sure you will disagree. There is no 'fact' and we can argue it all day and not come to a conclusion. There is equal arguments to both sides of that statement and either way it won't keep you from being 'saved'. Jesus said simply 'believe in me', he didn't say believe that I am equal to God the Father? Just so you know I don't want to argue this point as it goes nowhere. I know most disagree with me but telling me your right and I'm wrong isn't enough for me to throw away all logic and blindly believe the doctrine of the trinity sorry.

Of course the belief that Jesus is God is much more than mere opinion. There is a lot of Scripture to back up that claim but unfortunately, most who reject the Trinity reject it outright with no basis for doing so.

Again, your argument that "Jesus said simply 'believe in me'," is circular. You are ignoring just what it means to "believe in" Jesus.

And as for logic, I have shown thus far that your position is anything but logical. I can all but guarantee that the Trinity is the most logical, most coherent, most comprehensive doctrine of the nature of God. Unfortunately, this forum does not lend itself well to such discussions.

Another question, why do we need a measuring stick to determine who is a christian? It should be quite evident in their actions.

Apart from the contradiction (their actions would be a measuring stick), there are some very nice atheists whose actions are as good or better than most Christians. Do you propose we count them as Christians?

What about those that claim the beliefs but don't live them? How do we know what's in another's heart?

Those who claim to be Mormon and JW? Who and what beliefs? They have many beliefs that contradict Scripture, especially Mormons.

Why because they read the book of mormon along with the bible? Did Jesus say read the bible only?

I think Mormon beliefs have been dealt with already, so the answer should be obvious.

Personally I think it's easier to make sure I'm in line with what God taught us through his prophets and messengers and that my actions portray that then worrying about what set of beliefs I must fall in line with to be a 'true christian' which is only someone's opinion anyways.

Your argument is contradictory. On the one hand you don't agree that a given set of doctrines determines whether one is a Christian or not, yet you argue that "it's easier to make sure I'm in line with what God taught us through his prophets and messengers." Again, this begs the question. Just what is it that Gos has taught through the prophets and messengers?

To love our neighbours as ourself and have no other Gods before the One True God.

Do you really think that that is all they taught? How many books, how many authors, how many words?

You have given in to the relativistic pluralism that plagues so much of society.

Explain what you mean as their are all sorts of assumptions in regards to this. I don't believe any religion will get you 'saved' so to speak. The only way to the Father is through Jesus plain and simple I don't need any religions interpretation of what this entails to come up with a checklist that will have little to no affect on the motives in my heart.

Again, more circular arguments. By relativistic pluralism I mean that you believe that the numerous religions are more or less equal and they the all lead to God.

I agree that no religion will get one saved, however, it is the religion of Christianity which holds the beliefs necessary for salvation.

 

[Free]

I agree.

On what basis? I have shown that his "definition" merely begs the question.

JW's and mormons both read the bible, both believe in Jesus, so I would say they have 'characteristics' or 'follow the teachings' correct??

No, not at all. There are atheist biblical scholars who read and interpret the Bible on a daily basis and they may even believe that Jesus really existed but we cannot conclude that they follow the teachings or have any characteristics that make them Christian.

 

[RND]

Yet I just corrected your assumption and you still degrade my character as to calling you a liar.

You degraded your own character by insinuating I'm a liar.

Did I say God didn't exist??

You said "we can't 'prove' God exists" in spite of scriptures assertion that we can. So I would say you are very dangerous ly close to saying God doesn't exist.

I was trying to present how if someone(not me) doesn't believe in God, we can no longer proove to them that God does in fact exist when it all comes down to it. The only proof we'll have is when we are getting judged.

Then you discount the witness of scripture. Shame. :verysad

Well here you are splitting over different beliefs not the definition so what do you want me to say.

These aren't just different beliefs, these are the cornerstone of the Christian faith.

I'll let God be the judge.

So is that an admission that you reject scripture?

My beliefs are irrelevant as we are talking about JW's

You introduced you Mormon faith into the thread, not I therefore it is on the table.

 

[seekandlisten]

Yet I just corrected your assumption and you still degrade my character as to calling you a liar.

You degraded your own character by insinuating I'm a liar.

Did I say God didn't exist??

You said "we can't 'prove' God exists" in spite of scriptures assertion that we can. So I would say you are very dangerous ly close to saying God doesn't exist.

[quote:39fbhwe1] I was trying to present how if someone(not me) doesn't believe in God, we can no longer proove to them that God does in fact exist when it all comes down to it. The only proof we'll have is when we are getting judged.

Then you discount the witness of scripture. Shame. :verysad

Well here you are splitting over different beliefs not the definition so what do you want me to say.

These aren't just different beliefs, these are the cornerstone of the Christian faith.

I'll let God be the judge.

So is that an admission that you reject scripture?

My beliefs are irrelevant as we are talking about JW's

You introduced you Mormon faith into the thread, not I therefore it is on the table.[/quote:39fbhwe1]

And you are too blind to actually want anything from this dialogue other then your own self gratification. And for the record I'm not mormon.

 

[seekandlisten]

I don't believe more or less all religions lead to salvations. I believe all religions are useless so I put my faith in God alone. Everyone of my beliefs is found in 'your' bible.

I will stand up for other religions beliefs on this site as no one else will. We are too caught up in the letter of the law to see what is right in front of us. What you do will not affect my salvation so why should I tell you what to do?? I will however be your friend and accept you for who you are just like 'my' Jesus accepted me for how I am no matter what you believe. You must first earn trust and respect in this day and age before you can rebuke. Pull the log from your own eye. We are all sinners and are all equal. You want to raise yourself up to be 'more right' than me go ahead.

Edited as it was made in haste and frustration, while i do mean what I say here it is not aimed at any single person in particular.

 

[jasoncran]

seekandlisten have you ever read the watchtower or the awake magazines or attended the kingdom hall? or the book you can live forever too. i have, and these are the things that the jw's use instead of reading the bible directly and that my friend is discouraged last time i checked.

 

[seekandlisten]

seekandlisten have you ever read the watchtower or the awake magazines or attended the kingdom hall? or the book you can live forever too. i have, and these are the things that the jw's use instead of reading the bible directly and that my friend is discouraged last time i checked.

Yes I have. I also read the origins of the JW's to know where they come from. I attended a kingdom hall meeting on the premise that a JW told asked me why they should try out my church if I wouldn't try theirs. I don't believe the JW's in any way but I won't reject them either. I also won't tell them they are not a 'christian'. What is the point of a thread presenting that JW's are not christians?? Would it not deter more than attract??

Here is a true story for you. I had a friend who was raised as a JW. I convinced her to come with me to a youth weekend event with a group from the church. While we were there a couple of other 'christians' started going on about how JW's were a cult and so on. That person never came back to church with me after that or wanted anything to do with 'christianity'. So our witness in what we say about other beliefs aside of our own can have a disasterous impact and I refuse to be a part of it.

 

[RND]

And you are too blind to actually want anything from this dialogue other then your own self gratification.

You are free to your opinion. I am free to mine. Whenever I get a chance I will do all I can to expose the falsehoods of Mormonism.