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Is Jesus Christ a created being (Begotten Son) or has He always existed alongside God the Father (Eternal Son)?

TrevorL said:
Greetings My Rock,

Yes, he is a created being, the Son of God, with God as his father through the power of the Holy Spirit and Mary is his mother Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35, John 1-14.

Kind regards
Trevor
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"In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. (Heb. 1:1-3)

Jesus Christ is NOT a created being by any means. He is the RADIANCE OF GOD'S GLORY AND THE EXACT REPRESENTATION OF HIS BEING. How, may I ask, can a FINITE CREATED BEING be the EXACT REPRESENTATION of an INFINITE BEING? Impossible. God created ALL THINGS through Him--He made the entire Universe of physical existence through Christ, and all the invisible realms through Him. How could it be possible for God to create all of this THROUGH a finite created being? No----sorry----Jesus Christ was the WORD made flesh. "In the beginning was the WORD and the WORD was with God, and the WORD was GOD" (John 1:1) Please do not share heresy that the Son of God is a created being. That is the spirit of antichrist.
 
My Rock said:
Tell me what word or concept you would use to describe "God (He) was manifest in the Flesh"? And what form before flesh?

incarnate
adjective
in·car·nate in-ˈkär-nət
-ˌnāt
: given bodily or actual form
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"God was manifest in the flesh" is also debatable. Yes it's true that even though the KJV says such in 1 Tim. 3:16, there is controversy about that manuscript. Apparently it's a late addition and doesn't exist in older manuscripts. The scholarly consensus, though they mourn the loss of a prooftext, is that "God was manifest in the flesh" is false.

Some time back I sent you a decent comment about this.

As far as incarnate goes, it's not even taken into consideration. Incarnating and reincarnating weren't ideas in early Christian theology because men and women don't pre-exist their life. I believe you're trying to make the argument that Jesus, though a man, is more than a man, and that doesn't seem to be the case. He was a man empowered by God in much the same ways others were (Acts 2:22, Acts 4:30, Acts 10:38.) Therefore that's what I believe because the Scriptures directly say such.
 
Runningman said:
"God was manifest in the flesh" is also debatable. Yes it's true that even though the KJV says such in 1 Tim. 3:16, there is controversy about that manuscript. Apparently it's a late addition and doesn't exist in older manuscripts.
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What about John 1:14 same concept and there is no textual criticism to this verse that would change this meaning (Incarnated would be the correct english word to use)
Runningman said:
As far as incarnate goes, it's not even taken into consideration. Incarnating and reincarnating weren't ideas in early Christian theology because men and women don't pre-exist their life.
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The humanity of Jesus, often referred to as the Word made flesh, did indeed have a beginning in time, as seen in the incarnation when the eternal Word took on human form (John 1:14). However, the Self-Expressive Word of God, which is the divine Logos, is uncreated and has always existed. This Word is not a separate entity from God but is intrinsic to His very nature, much like how a man and his word are inseparable. To suggest that the omnipotent God is incapable of manifesting Himself in flesh while remaining omnipresent would be to misunderstand the nature of God’s infinite power and presence. The account of God revealing Himself to Moses in a single tangible location (Exodus 33:21-23) while still being omnipresent with His people demonstrates His ability to be both immanent and transcendent. In the same way, Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15), fully embodying the fullness of the Godhead (Colossians 2:9) while God’s presence continues to fill the heavens and the earth. This understanding is crucial in recognizing the unique and profound mystery of the Incarnation, where God, in His infinite wisdom, chose to dwell among us as both fully God and fully man, bridging the gap between divinity and humanity.
 
If Jesus wasn't God in flesh everyone of these would have been rebuked for idolatry of worshipping an ordinary man, because worship belongs to God alone.

Matthew 2:11, "And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh."
Matthew 8:2, "And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean."
Matthew 9:18, "While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live."
Matthew 14:33, "Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God."
Matthew 15:25, "Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me."
Matthew 28:9, "And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him."
Matthew 28:17, "And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted."
Mark 5:6, "But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,"
Luke 24:52, "And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:"
John 9:38, "And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him."
 
My Rock said:
What about John 1:14 same concept and there is no textual criticism to this verse that would change this meaning (Incarnated would be the correct english word to use)

The humanity of Jesus, often referred to as the Word made flesh, did indeed have a beginning in time, as seen in the incarnation when the eternal Word took on human form (John 1:14). However, the Self-Expressive Word of God, which is the divine Logos, is uncreated and has always existed. This Word is not a separate entity from God but is intrinsic to His very nature, much like how a man and his word are inseparable. To suggest that the omnipotent God is incapable of manifesting Himself in flesh while remaining omnipresent would be to misunderstand the nature of God’s infinite power and presence. The account of God revealing Himself to Moses in a single tangible location (Exodus 33:21-23) while still being omnipresent with His people demonstrates His ability to be both immanent and transcendent. In the same way, Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15), fully embodying the fullness of the Godhead (Colossians 2:9) while God’s presence continues to fill the heavens and the earth. This understanding is crucial in recognizing the unique and profound mystery of the Incarnation, where God, in His infinite wisdom, chose to dwell among us as both fully God and fully man, bridging the gap between divinity and humanity.
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If Jesus actually pre-existed his time on earth then it for sure wasn't as God. It would have either been as a god, perhaps an angel, or a human (John 1:1, 1 Corinthians 15:49.) I firmly believe that the idea that God incarnated would be nothing short of the perpetuation of idolatry and sin so it isn't a practical concept. As it is, God denied being a man at all in Hosea 11:9 and others directly stated God isn't a man or the son of man in Numbers 23:19 and 1 Samuel 15:29. Already there is no premise to support the conclusion.

Some of the verses you quoted rightly pointed out how God is invisible so therefore any tangible representation of God would be an idol and the worship of such would be idolatry and such was condemned directly by God as a sin in Exodus 20:46. God is always invisible yet Jesus isn't because he's a human. Yes, God can manifest in different ways, but as a human is apparently not one of them. God can also be in temples not made by human hands.

I'll leave you with something to consider. The only one called the Lord of heaven and earth in Scripture is the Father. He is the one who is the Creator and dwells in Jesus and also in us. That means Jesus isn't God.

Matthew 11​
25At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.​
​
Acts 17​
24God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;​
 
My Rock said:
If Jesus wasn't God in flesh everyone of these would have been rebuked for idolatry of worshipping an ordinary man, because worship belongs to God alone.

Matthew 2:11, "And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh."
Matthew 8:2, "And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean."
Matthew 9:18, "While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live."
Matthew 14:33, "Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God."
Matthew 15:25, "Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me."
Matthew 28:9, "And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him."
Matthew 28:17, "And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted."
Mark 5:6, "But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,"
Luke 24:52, "And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:"
John 9:38, "And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him."
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Worship in scripture doesn't always equate to the one doing the worshipping is actually making someone out to be God such as the example of Nathan in 1 Kings 1:23 where he worshipped the kind. Prophet Nathan is a heinous idolator now? That isn't the idea being conveyed despite the same word for worship being used to describe Nathan's bowing.

In regards to Jesus, none of the examples of Jesus being worshipped say he is God, but rather the Son of God and for practical purposes, Jesus was simply bowed down to. Nothing says to bow to Jesus as God and there is no teaching or commandment about it.

Bowing down to someone isn't the Biblical idea of true worship. True worship isn't prostration in scripture, but rather in spirit and truth. In Jesus's teachings, on the matter of worship, the only one Jesus taught Christians to worship is the Father. Therefore, worshipping the Father is the only one we are to worship because the Father is the only true God (John 17:3.)

John 4​
23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.​
​
Romans 12​
1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.​
​
Furthermore, at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, yet Jesus doesn't get any glory for it. Why? Because Jesus isn't God. Only the Father gets the glory.

Philippians 2​
10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​
 
Runningman said:
Some of the verses you quoted rightly pointed out how God is invisible so therefore any tangible representation of God would be an idol
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So Moses who was talking and worshipping God through a burning bush (tangible representation of God) that was Idol worship?
 
Runningman said:
Nothing says to bow to Jesus as God and there is no teaching or commandment about it.
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Luke 4:8, "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

Please tell me plainly, without any running around, why those people were not rebuked for worshipping and serving Christ.
 
My Rock said:
Luke 4:8, "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

Please tell me plainly, without any running around, why those people were not rebuked for worshipping and serving Christ.
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Hello My Rock, I have been viewing your threads, but I found this one is a good statement, maybe in times of thinking I would call it taking heed to oneself, would you? Deuteronomy 4:9 KJV, 1 Timothy 4:16 KJV

Love, Walter And Debbie
 
Hopeful 2 said:
Doesn't a child need to be conceived before it is a son or daughter ?
It's common sense.
The Word became Jesus at Jesus' conception in a woman.
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The WORD is the Son.

The Son was begotten by the Father before creation as it was the Son that created all things.
 
Hopeful 2 said:
The Word took on flesh in order to be a Son.
Jesus was begotten by God in Mary.
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The Son took on flesh in the person of Jesus. The Son has always been and John just used the word Logos in speaking of his eternal preexistence.

Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
Heb 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”
Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” (ESV)

Why does the writer of Hebrews think the Son has always existed and was the agent of creation?
 
Free said:
The Son took on flesh in the person of Jesus. The Son has always been and John just used the word Logos in speaking of his eternal preexistence.

Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
Heb 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”
Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” (ESV)

Why does the writer of Hebrews think the Son has always existed and was the agent of creation?
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The Word took on flesh, so He could be the Son of God.
I wonder if Jesus would respond if anyone still called Him "the Word" ?
The Son always existed, but as the Word: until He was actually begotten in a woman.
 
Hopeful 2 said:
The Word took on flesh, so He could be the Son of God.
I wonder if Jesus would respond if anyone still called Him "the Word" ?
The Son always existed, but as the Word: until He was actually begotten in a woman.
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False.


The only begotten Son of God created all things and then became flesh.


JLB
 
Runningman said:
The word in incarnate doesn't exist in Scripture nor is the concept described. Incarnating isn't a Biblical concept. So your premise doesn't follow to a right conclusion.


Nothing there states that Jesus is God in the flesh. I believe your thesis is based on assumption and belief rather than Scripture.


Nothing in the Bible says Jesus is intrinsically God or both God and man. All of your points and conclusions lack key Biblical support.
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In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1


The Word was God.

The Word became flesh.

God became flesh.


And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14





JLB
 
Hopeful 2 said:
The Word took on flesh in order to be a Son.
Jesus was begotten by God in Mary.
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Jesus the Son was the only begotten Son before creation.

Long before the earth and long before there was Mary.

The only begotten Son of God created all things.

  • by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. Colossians 1:15-16




JLB
 
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