Is Jesus Christ a created being (Begotten Son) or has He always existed alongside God the Father (Eternal Son)?

[Tenchi]

1 God is, by definition, without beginning or end.
2. Jesus had a beginning.
3. Jesus carries the name of God in him.
4. Jesus is God.
5. Jesus has a God.
6. Jesus is not He alone who is God.
7. The God and Father of Jesus is alone the true God.

Well, premises 2 and 3 need biblical justification and a sound argument in support of them. What does "carry the name of God in him" mean, exactly? And how does doing so make Jesus, God?

Do you know what the "Law of the Indiscernability of Identicals" is? This basic law of logic stipulates that if there is any difference between Jesus and God in their essential nature (e.g. divine aseity), then they aren't both God. If, then, God the Father is truly a se in His fundamental nature, as the Bible says, but Jesus is not, then it cannot be said that they are both God. At most, Jesus could be said to be God-like, or nearly-God, but if he is not truly a se, which would require that he exist as a necessity of his own nature, then he cannot be said to be truly, fully God.

The Bible says otherwise, however. (Isaiah 9:6; John 1:1-4; John 10:30-33; John 14:8-9; Colossians 2:9; Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1, etc.)

The essential nature of God also requires that there be no one above, no one greater than, God. By definition, God is the Greatest Possible Being. If, then, God has a God above Him, He is not God. The One above Him is God. So, too, with Jesus. If he has a God who is above him, particularly by virtue of the superior nature of this God, then Jesus cannot be said to be God. Jesus can, of course, willingly assume a lower place in relation to God the Father, but in his essential nature still be equal to, or identical with, God the Father, which is, I think, what the Bible indicates is the case.

This very state of affairs is widespread among human beings who all share an essential human nature but who adopt positions of relation to one another in which one human is subject in some way to another (employer to employee, police officer to citizen, king to subjects, servants to Master, teacher to student, etc.).

 

[LeviR]

Well, premises 2 and 3 need biblical justification and a sound argument in support of them. What does "carry the name of God in him" mean, exactly? And how does doing so make Jesus, God?

Do you know what the "Law of the Indiscernability of Identicals" is? This basic law of logic stipulates that if there is any difference between Jesus and God in their essential nature (e.g. divine aseity), then they aren't both God. If, then, God the Father is truly a se in His fundamental nature, as the Bible says, but Jesus is not, then it cannot be said that they are both God. At most, Jesus could be said to be God-like, or nearly-God, but if he is not truly a se, which would require that he exist as a necessity of his own nature, then he cannot be said to be truly, fully God.

The Bible says otherwise, however. (Isaiah 9:6; John 1:1-4; John 10:30-33; John 14:8-9; Colossians 2:9; Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1, etc.)

The essential nature of God also requires that there be no one above, no one greater than, God. By definition, God is the Greatest Possible Being. If, then, God has a God above Him, He is not God. The One above Him is God. So, too, with Jesus. If he has a God who is above him, particularly by virtue of the superior nature of this God, then Jesus cannot be said to be God. Jesus can, of course, willingly assume a lower place in relation to God the Father, but in his essential nature still be equal to, or identical with, God the Father, which is, I think, what the Bible indicates is the case.

This very state of affairs is widespread among human beings who all share an essential human nature but who adopt positions of relation to one another in which one human is subject in some way to another (employer to employee, police officer to citizen, king to subjects, servants to Master, teacher to student, etc.).

Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD.

I have come in my Father’s name.

He comes with all power and authority of the Father.

He comes in the name of his Father(YHWH)

Psa 22:22 - I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Psalm 8:5 is David's commentary/summary of Genesis 1:26-27.
Psalm 8:5 (KJV): For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels (Hebrew Elohim). and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

That does not say that the angels had a hand in creation.

Isaiah 55:8–11 (KJV): 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

The Word was more than just thoughts.
He was with God from the beginning.
And He was God.
The Word took on flesh and was born of a woman.

 

[Fish153]

The word is not “origin” Of David. It is “root” of David.
The root comes from the seed.
He is the root and offspring from the seed of David.
IOW, Jesus was a Jewish man in the line of his father David.

What I was trying to point out is that Jesus is stating he is the beginning and the end. He is the FIRST and the LAST. He CREATED David

What you'll come to understand (if you don't yet understand it) is that you haven't the power to persuade anyone of anything unless they are already prepared to be persuaded. So, you can challenge error, but you can't make the one holding that error forsake it. Typically, a person who has been investing repeatedly in their error by defending and promoting it is especially hardened by doing so against being persuaded to a different, correct view. This increasing hardness to the truth is, I think, part of how God judges the purveyor of falsehood.

Tenchi----- Thanks---I was misunderstanding your original point. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again LeviR and Fish153,

Let me know what you find. I guarantee the word “root” does not mean “origin”. Since when does a root produce the seed?
Never, the seed produces the root. Using the word “origin” for “root” is just another twisting of the truth.

I am still happy with the word "root" in the normal sense of the word and I consider that this is speaking about the root of a tree. I liked the following comment in TNDT: "Since the flora of Palestine is often threatened by heat or drought, special attention is directed to the root as the part of the plant which guarantees the existence of the whole".

A tree in those circumstances in Israel may need special attention, such as irrigation, or it could prosper similar to the tree planted by rivers of water as depicted in Psalm 1.

Jesus is the offspring of David through Mary, but Jesus is the source of life of all that David will be in the Kingdom, including resurrection and everlasting life.

He CREATED David

I prefer the explanation above.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Hopeful 2,

That does not say that the angels had a hand in creation.

I suggest that it is the only acceptable perspective and commentary on Genesis 1:26-27. They were the only Beings in the Garden to represent the "us" and the "our".

The Word was more than just thoughts.
He was with God from the beginning.

Who then was the Wise Woman Wisdom, who was with the One God, Yahweh, God the Father in the Creation?

Proverbs 8:22–31 (KJV): 22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

The Word took on flesh and was born of a woman.

This Wise Woman Wisdom also appeared in the streets of Jerusalem and preached:

Proverbs 8:1–11 (KJV): 1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice? 2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths. 3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors. 4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man. 5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart. 6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things. 7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips. 8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them. 9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge. 10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold. 11 For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Randy]

The Deity that was pleased to dwell in him is the Spirit of the Father .
It is by the Spirit of the Father he has been given all power and authority over all of God’s creation.
One who already is that Spirit is not given that Spirit. One who already has all power and authority is not given it.

Fullness=the deity without limit. Yes it is the Father in Him. But in that unity He is ALL that the Father is. The image of the invisible God. He has the Fathers very nature in Him. God was the Logos. The radiance of the Fathers glory and the exact imprint of the Fathers very being. The Father in the Son and the Son in the Father. They are ONE. The throne of God and of the lamb forever.

Is Jesus God?
He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

 

[LeviR]

Greetings again LeviR and Fish153,

I am still happy with the word "root" in the normal sense of the word and I consider that this is speaking about the root of a tree. I liked the following comment in TNDT: "Since the flora of Palestine is often threatened by heat or drought, special attention is directed to the root as the part of the plant which guarantees the existence of the whole".

A tree in those circumstances in Israel may need special attention, such as irrigation, or it could prosper similar to the tree planted by rivers of water as depicted in Psalm 1.

Jesus is the offspring of David through Mary, but Jesus is the source of life of all that David will be in the Kingdom, including resurrection and everlasting life.

I prefer the explanation above.

Kind regards
Trevor

Their argument is that not only did Jesus exist before David was born, but that Jesus created David by being the root of David.
This is false, the root does not create a tree. A root is what holds the tree in place.
Jesus is the seed of David. Meaning that Jesus has come from David. Being the root of David refers to the establishment of the kingdom and throne of David which shall be firmly planted and not be moved anymore.

Now therefore, thus shall you say to My servant David, ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts: “I took you from the sheepfold, from following the sheep, to be ruler over My people, over Israel. 9 And I have been with you wherever you have gone, and have [a]cut off all your enemies from before you, and have made you a great name, like the name of the great men who are on the earth. 10 Moreover I will appoint a place for My people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own and move no more; nor shall the sons of wickedness oppress them anymore, as previously, 11 since the time that I commanded judges to be over My people Israel, and have caused you to rest from all your enemies. Also the Lord [b]tells you that He will make you a [c]house.

12 “When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the [d]blows of the sons of men. 15 But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before [e]you. Your throne shall be established forever.” ’ ”

The idea of these commentators who suppose being the root of David refers to a son of David existing before David is false.

Jesus was made Lord, by God, over his father David.
“God has made Jesus to be both Lord and Christ”

Jesus was never David’s Lord until God made him so. And this, after Jesus was raised from the dead, because David is still dead.

 

[LeviR]

Fullness=the deity without limit. Yes it is the Father in Him. But in that unity He is ALL that the Father is. The image of the invisible God. He has the Fathers very nature in Him. God was the Logos. The radiance of the Fathers glory and the exact imprint of the Fathers very being. The Father in the Son and the Son in the Father. They are ONE. The throne of God and of the lamb forever.

Is Jesus God?
He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

He had not the Father’s nature because he was mortal. The Father was never mortal because His nature is not mortal.

What the mortal Jesus was given is the Spirit of the Father whereby Jesus was as the Father in that all that might be said or applied to the Spirit of the Father could be applied to Jesus.

Jesus said things like “my Father works and so I work” , “The Father shows the son all things He Himself does”.
As the Father works, so does Jesus. As the Father creates, so does Jesus. As the Father raises the dead, so does Jesus.

All of that can be said because the Spirit of the Father was given to Jesus without limit.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Greetings again Hopeful 2,
I suggest that it is the only acceptable perspective and commentary on Genesis 1:26-27. They were the only Beings in the Garden to represent the "us" and the "our".

I find it interesting that you can't accept that the Word was with God before the Word took on flesh.

Who then was the Wise Woman Wisdom, who was with the One God, Yahweh, God the Father in the Creation?
Proverbs 8:22–31 (KJV): 22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

But you can accept that there was a woman named Wisdom.
Did Wisdom put on flesh and get born of another woman ?

This Wise Woman Wisdom also appeared in the streets of Jerusalem and preached:

Proverbs 8:1–11 (KJV): 1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice? 2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths. 3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors. 4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man. 5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart. 6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things. 7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips. 8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them. 9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge. 10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold. 11 For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[LeviR]

Greetings again Hopeful 2,

I suggest that it is the only acceptable perspective and commentary on Genesis 1:26-27. They were the only Beings in the Garden to represent the "us" and the "our".

Who then was the Wise Woman Wisdom, who was with the One God, Yahweh, God the Father in the Creation?

Proverbs 8:22–31 (KJV): 22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.


This Wise Woman Wisdom also appeared in the streets of Jerusalem and preached:

Proverbs 8:1–11 (KJV): 1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice? 2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths. 3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors. 4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man. 5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart. 6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things. 7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips. 8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them. 9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge. 10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold. 11 For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.

Kind regards
Trevor

To say that the “us” and “our” cannot refer to angels means your theology is off.
The JW’s say the image and likeness of God was a sense of justice God planted into man.
That’s not what the words mean.
They have to change what the words mean because they don’t believe God has a physical body.
If they believed God has a physical body they wouldn’t have to change the meaning of the words “image” and “likeness”

And if they followed this truth, they would also learn that there idea of the devil is also spurious.

Just went through a discussion on sons of God and the devil here:

Gen 6...who are the sons of God?

OK.... got to feed you when you're hungry. My Lord said so... So here! He said to another man, “Follow me.” But he replied, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.” Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.” Luke 9:59-60 You...

christcentered.community.forum

 

[Fish153]

Their argument is that not only did Jesus exist before David was born, but that Jesus created David by being the root of David.
This is false, the root does not create a tree. A root is what holds the tree in place.
Jesus is the seed of David. Meaning that Jesus has come from David. Being the root of David refers to the establishment of the kingdom and throne of David which shall be firmly planted and not be moved anymore.

Now therefore, thus shall you say to My servant David, ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts: “I took you from the sheepfold, from following the sheep, to be ruler over My people, over Israel. 9 And I have been with you wherever you have gone, and have [a]cut off all your enemies from before you, and have made you a great name, like the name of the great men who are on the earth. 10 Moreover I will appoint a place for My people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own and move no more; nor shall the sons of wickedness oppress them anymore, as previously, 11 since the time that I commanded judges to be over My people Israel, and have caused you to rest from all your enemies. Also the Lord [b]tells you that He will make you a [c]house.

12 “When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the [d]blows of the sons of men. 15 But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before [e]you. Your throne shall be established forever.” ’ ”

The idea of these commentators who suppose being the root of David refers to a son of David existing before David is false.

Jesus was made Lord, by God, over his father David.
“God has made Jesus to be both Lord and Christ”

Jesus was never David’s Lord until God made him so. And this, after Jesus was raised from the dead, because David is still dead.

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever". (Hebrews 13:8). This is basically the same as the verse that says "FROM everlasting TO everlasting thou art God". Jesus is God. The Bible teaches it very clearly.

 

[Fish153]

To say that the “us” and “our” cannot refer to angels means your theology is off.
The JW’s say the image and likeness of God was a sense of justice God planted into man.
That’s not what the words mean.
They have to change what the words mean because they don’t believe God has a physical body.
If they believed God has a physical body they wouldn’t have to change the meaning of the words “image” and “likeness”

And if they followed this truth, they would also learn that there idea of the devil is also spurious.

Just went through a discussion on sons of God and the devil here:

Gen 6...who are the sons of God?

OK.... got to feed you when you're hungry. My Lord said so... So here! He said to another man, “Follow me.” But he replied, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.” Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.” Luke 9:59-60 You...

christcentered.community.forum

"Let US make man in our image" is not referring to angels. The Hebrew word is ELOHIM which is plural.

 

[LeviR]

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever". (Hebrews 13:8). This is basically the same as the verse that says "FROM everlasting TO everlasting thou art God". Jesus is God. The Bible teaches it very clearly.

Hebrews 13 speaks of salvation through Jesus Christ. That it was the same yesterday, and today, and forever.
The salvation that comes through Christ has always been the way and always will be the way.

 

[LeviR]

"Let US make man in our image" is not referring to angels. The Hebrew word is ELOHIM which is plural.

Why is it not referring to angels. They were the only other ones around besides God.

 

[Fish153]

Hebrews 13 speaks of salvation through Jesus Christ. That it was the same yesterday, and today, and forever.
The salvation that comes through Christ has always been the way and always will be the way.

Levi--- No. It says "Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever". It is speaking of HIM, not SALVATION. You can TRY to manipulate to mean what you want---but it is quite clearly speaking of HIM.

 

[Fish153]

Why is it not referring to angels. They were the only other ones around besides God.

Levi----- the passage is a PERSON speaking (GOD). He says "Let US make man in OUR image". It isn't God referring to himself and a group of angels. No where does it say angels are made in the image of God. So how could it say "OUR image" and be referring to angels?

 

[LeviR]

Levi----- the passage is a PERSON speaking (GOD). He says "Let US make man in OUR image". It isn't God referring to himself and a group of angels. No where does it say angels are made in the image of God. So how could it say "OUR image" and be referring to angels?

When angels open the eyes of men to see them, they appear as men. They don’t materialize, they open the eyes of men to see them.

 

[Randy]

He had not the Father’s nature because he was mortal. The Father was never mortal because His nature is not mortal.

What the mortal Jesus was given is the Spirit of the Father whereby Jesus was as the Father in that all that might be said or applied to the Spirit of the Father could be applied to Jesus.

Jesus said things like “my Father works and so I work” , “The Father shows the son all things He Himself does”.
As the Father works, so does Jesus. As the Father creates, so does Jesus. As the Father raises the dead, so does Jesus.

All of that can be said because the Spirit of the Father was given to Jesus without limit.

The Son who was and is now has all the fullness of God the Father living in Him. He is all that the Father is. He also has sovereign authority.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Why is it not referring to angels. They were the only other ones around besides God.

The Word was also around, "...with God...". (John 1:1)