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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Is Jesus considered to be God?
- Thread starter ManofGod
- Start date
JudaicChristian
Member
This is what Yahshua said about himself: John 10:33. "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."ManofGod said:
34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?
Exactly. While logic and reason most certainly have their place in understanding Scripture, they also have a limit. This is a huge problem in the Western Church, particularly on the Protestant side of things. For some reason many think that everything must have a rational explanation or it isn't true; there is no room for the mysteries of God. Of course, that is not to say that such mysteries are therefore irrational, but rather that they are beyond our limited understanding.francisdesales said:
francisdesales
Member
Free said:
Agreed, the Western Church is full of over-rationalizing the faith. Catholics fell into it while defending against over-rationalizing men of the Enlightenment... I suppose it comes from our mind's desire to "know" something "scientifically", rather than trusting that we can "know" something by "faith". We are products of our environment, an over-emphasis on rationalization in the West.
Regards
Do you understand how God has existed for eternity?Yehoshea said:
Ultimately, yes, the Incarnation is a mystery and the Trinity is a mystery. However, although we cannot know God exhaustively, we can know him truly. We can, and do, know that he is a Trinity based on what Scripture reveals. We cannot know what the nature of that union is.
Why is it a great mistake? A creature is a creature; a finite sacrifice is a finite sacrifice. You must explain how one creature's sacrifice is greater than another creature's sacrifice.Yahoshea said:
I think you're confusing me with someone else entirely. I don't think I have posted much Scripture in a discussion with you yet.Yahoshea said:
It is very relevant since asking if whether or not Jesus could have sinned splits the mystery of the Incarnation. In doing so, it is not at all a good argument against the deity of Jesus.Yahoshea said:
Drew
Member
I agree with the general spirit of this. Many of the argument against the Trinitarian position are grounded in the specifically conceptual distinction between the categories of "god" and "man". So for example we get the argument that since a man dies, He cannot be divine since immortality is one of the characteristics of divinity.Free said:
Ultimately these categorical distinctions have the following problem - they are grounded in the vague, general notions of "god-hood" and "human-ness" that our culture has bequeathed to us. Instead, the place to look for the appropriate "definitions" is, of course, the Old Testament and the specifically Jewish model of divinity that we find there. As has been shown in this thread, one of the characterisitcs of this God -the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob - is that, having left the people of Israel, He has promised to return to them and to return to His temple.
The picture of Jesus we see in the New Testament clearly fulfills this very specific expectation. It is for this and similar reasons that we rightly predicate divinity of Jesus. Appealing to conceptual boundaries that are grounded in vague ways of thinking about "god" that have no connection to the specifically Jewih God we see in the Old Testament is not the way to go.
Drew said:
Unfortunately you do not take into consideration several aspects of Jewish culture. In saying that the God of Jacob will return you do not ask how you will know of his return. He is an invisible spirit. How would you know unless he is being revealed through some natural means. secondly we are the temple. God returning to the Temple is speaking of God coming to dwell with us in our being. Being filled with the spirit is ecentially accomplishing that goal. The more of the spirit we are capable or willing to allow in us the more of God can return to our particular temple. this is in keeping with the functional way in which the Hebrew thought and perceived their world. The leaders in psalm 82 were called Gods because they were to function as Gods to the people. In John 10 Jesus quotes this verse and applies it to the leaders of his time. they too were supposed to function as Gods. Are they literally Gods? No, but the hebrew mind would see them by their function and not by their appearance. We begin to function as God when we interact with his creation using the character of God and his wisdom to guide us. these actions are continually perfecting us and making us His children of his character.
Jesus was a human being that completed that process. He was perfected by what he suffered. He was tempted like all other men and overcame sin and temptation. YHWH would not allow the grave to hold him because he completed God's original plan. the plan that was before the fall. Had Adam and EVE not fallen there would have been no need for a savior. The savior's redemptive work was implimented to help complete the original plan. Because of the redemption work of christ we can partake of the divine nature as christ did and follow the process as he did. Because of Christ as our human example we have a clear example to follow. We can see how he developed the character of God. We have a mediator and high priest that is aware of all the snares of the enemy with whom we can talk and learn.
We need the redemptive work of Christ to make us "legally" elgible to be part of God's plan and Jesus as a perfect human example to show us how the plan actually works. and what the end result looks like.
francisdesales
Member
Yehoshea said:
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called]: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 1 Cor 1:23-27
or...
your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory....Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1 Cor 2:5-8; 12-13
Apparently, the Christians have always been using the "mystery" card...
Regards
Apparently, the Christians have always been using the "mystery" card...francisdesales said:
Christians indeed talked about the mystery but those whom have the truth understand the mystery and can explain it. They do not throw up their hands and claim it is a mystery that cannot be explained.
Mark 4:11?And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables,?
Trinitarians say God is a mystery. This scripture raises the question are they on the inside or outside.
Romans 11:25?For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in
God wants us to be informed of the mysteries.
Romans 16:25?Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,?
Kept secret in the past.
Ephesians 1:9?He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him?
God tells us his mysteries
Ephesians 3:3?that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief.?
The mystery was made know to Paul.
Ephesians 3:4?By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,?
Paul understands the mystery
Ephesians 3:9?and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;?
Paul brought the mystery to light.
Ephesians 5:32?This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church
Ephesians 6:19?and pray on my behalf, that utterance may be given to me in the opening of my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel,?
If Paul prayed to explain the mystery was he denied?
Colossians 1:26?that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints,?
The mystery should be understood by the saints.
Colossians 1:27?to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
God has made know the mystery.
Colossians 2:2?that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God's mystery, that is, Christ Hiimself
What have I been saying about fruit? A human Christ produces fruit like enchouragment. That is the understanding of the mystery.
Colossians 4:3?praying at the same time for us as well, that God will open up to us a door for the word, so that we may speak forth the mystery of Christ, for which I have also been imprisoned;
Paul wants us to understand the mystery.
My belief in a human Christ does not involve mystery. It explains it. It proves clearly that a human can raise to the heights of being perfected in God’s eyes. That God desires His human children to grow into perfected children with His character, just like Christ. The mystery of Christ is that a human son can have all of the breath (spirit) of God in him and walk perfectly and by doing so open the door as an example for us to follow.
It also shows that a human blood sacrifice is sufficient for God. since it is impossible for God to die the perfect human son of God is the highest being in this creation that could be sacrificed.
some might say a human is not enough but I say – as a father I would gladly give my life before I would sacrifice my son. The sacrifice of my son would be a much greater sacrifice.
What you fail to understand is that the Church has historically believed in many mysteries--things which Scripture does not elaborate on; things beyond our understanding, such as the Incarnation. We are talking about those mysteries, not the one mentioned in Scripture by Paul.Yahoshea said:
And you continue to avoid the implications of a mere creature being sacrificed.Yahoshea said:
But still insufficient. I fail to see how this argument supports your position since it implies that Jesus' sacrifice as a human, according to you, would be greater than God somehow sacrificing himself. How could the sacrifice of a mere creature be greater than the sacrifice of the Creator himself?Yahoshea said:
francisdesales
Member
Yahoshea said:
We don't "throw our hands up in the air" and say "it can't be explained". It cannot be fully explained by human words.
Man cannot fully explain eternal time.
Man cannot fully explain things that transcend time or space.
In addition, while God has made known the mysterious plan that has been hidden, it doesn't follow that God told us EVERYTHING about Himself. If I reveal something about myself, does that mean you know me inside and out??? Hardly.
Even to Paul, everything wasn't known to them as you inaccurately believe...Some things were not to be revealed until the end...
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 2 Cor 12:2-3
But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. 1 Cor 13:10-12
Furthermore, Paul also points out that many Christians did NOT know as much as they thought, despite being taught by the Apostles... A person "knew" the Spirit as the person walked in the Lord...
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk [is] unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Heb 5:12-14
Christians don't seem to know it all, do they...
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ... I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal? 1 Cor 2:14-15; 3:1-4
Note, the Corinthians are not spiritual because they have the audacity to continue in fleshy ways, ways of strife and schism. Thus, it is false to presume that because you were baptized one time, you know everything there is to know about God, as if the info was beamed into your brain. One's actions show that they are not "knowledgeable" of the Spirit of God. They do not have the mind of God, the Spirit, if they continue in "fleshy" ways of dissension.
And as Paul mentions, even this "knowledge" is not all-encompassing as if to have complete rational and scientific knowledge of God. This is a false interpretation of Scriptures.
1 Tim 3:15-16, if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth. 16 Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory. (ESV)
16 and, confessedly, great is the secret of piety -- God was manifested in flesh, declared righteous in spirit, seen by messengers, preached among nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory! (YLT)
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. (NKJV)
16 and, confessedly, great is the secret of piety -- God was manifested in flesh, declared righteous in spirit, seen by messengers, preached among nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory! (YLT)
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. (NKJV)
Free said:
again you keep forming proof on unproven beliefs.
You say because the church believes in an unproven doctrine like the incarnation that it proves the church believes in mysteries. That proves nothing. Believing in one unproven doctrine does not make it OK to believe in another. Complete circular reasoning. the fact that the church has fallen into deception does not prove that deception to be correct or that any deception is OK.
secondly we are talking about what Paul was talking about. He spoke of the mystery of Christ. which is exactly as we are talking about the makeup of Christ. Furthermore we are talking about the mystery of "godliness". How to become Godly. Jesus as a man showed us how by example. the exact subject of our discussion.
You have shown no proof scripturally of the need for a God to die (as if the absurd idea of a God dying is not foolish enough) All you have done is repeat over and over your dogma. Repetition does not make it so. Where is your proof that a God died for our sins. Where is your proof that it is necessary for a God to die for our sins. You assume Jesus is God and then say God must have died because Jesus did.
Your conclussion has to be false because it requires that the immortal God must die. then when ask for proof that an immortal God can die you dodge it by saying it is a mystery. If you are going to have the audacity to corrupt the nature of God you need to have more proof then the need to prove your doctrine. The most fundimental belief of the judeo christian followers is the immortality of YHWH. You step outside of the judeo christian faith by saying he can die.
You talk about what the church believes. The church believes in an immortal YHWH. Furthermore scripture backs up the immortality of YHWH. You will find no scripture that says YHWH can die.
I believe in the quizlebop of the spirit. that is that when you sprinkle water on the head of an infant that water contains the literal tears of God. It is that which saves the infant from sin.
see how easy it is to make up words like quizlbop or incarnation to prove some pet theory.
The scriptures you posted prove my point.
The mystery of "Godliness". It does not say the mystery of "God". Godliness is the act of being godly. We are all supposed to become Godly. Jesus showed the way by example. A human example for human followers.
As to Christ manifested in the flesh. Look up the meaning of manifested. It means Made clear; disclosed; made apparent, obvious or evident.
God was made clear in Christ. That was part of his ministry. To bring an invisible immortal God into clearity for all of us to see. The only way we can see God, within His creation. scripture says you can look at the creation and see God. Jesus was created by God and we see God revealed in him. To one extant or another God should be seen in all of us. We have our example on what that should look like.
God in Christ as our example. God in us as the fulfillment of God’s plan.
francisdesales said:
Certainly there are mysteries in God but the nature of Christ and of God are not one of them. they are clear in scripture. scripture is clear on the immortality of YHWH and the inability of being tempted. scripture is also clear that Christ is not immortal and can be tempted. this cannot be explained away by saying it is a mystery. scripture is clear that it is not a mystery.
You use ---
Man cannot fully explain eternal time.
Man cannot fully explain things that transcend time or space.
These things have nothing whatsoever to do with the nature of God or christ.
Please read the passages more closely. They do not say "godliness was manifested in Jesus" or that "God was manifested in Jesus;" some say "God was manifested in the flesh" and some say "He was manifested in the flesh."Yahoshea said:
That is in complete agreement with John 1:14--"the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."
God was manifest in the flesh. That does not prove Jesus is God. What God started out to produce in the first Adam was revealed and made apparent (manifest) in the second Adam. The idea (word) of God became flesh. God was revealed in Christ. God in Christ.
God was also revealed in the burning bush, the pillar of fire, the shakinnah glory ect. However their was only one perfect revealing of God and that was the man Christ Jesus.
The entire context of 1 Tim 3 is the qualifications for leaders in the church. This is about how to judge godliness in humanity. The mystery of godliness is revealed in Christ. If you want to see how a human should look if he is godly? Look at the example Christ.
Are you going to ignore these clear scriptures?
1 Peter 2:21?[ Christ Is Our Example ] For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,
1 Timothy 1:16?Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.
14"If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet.
15"For I gave you an example that you also should do as I did to you.
(Christ as our example)
Can Christ be a fair example to us if He is God?
He must be human or the example part of his ministry is a failure
If Jesus is God and overcomes temptation --- so what?
If Jesus is God and overcomes death and the grave – so what?
There is no example in this for us. There is no hope produced for us in this. There is no fruit from Christ as God.
Your mystery conclusion is a cop out for a doctrine that cannot be proven in scripture and fails to support the overall plan of God as taught in scripture.
In addition you defame God by changing his character to a being that can be tempted and can die. If that is the God you wish to worship then you are Christian in name only because you do not believe in the God of Israel, the Old Testament, the New Testament or the common beliefs of the Christian Church.
You agreee that God is immortal and then say he can die.
You agree that God cannot be tempted and then say of a being that can be tempted (Jesus) that he is God.
These statements are not rational. To hide these irrationalities you throw up the mystery card.
God was also revealed in the burning bush, the pillar of fire, the shakinnah glory ect. However their was only one perfect revealing of God and that was the man Christ Jesus.
The entire context of 1 Tim 3 is the qualifications for leaders in the church. This is about how to judge godliness in humanity. The mystery of godliness is revealed in Christ. If you want to see how a human should look if he is godly? Look at the example Christ.
Are you going to ignore these clear scriptures?
1 Peter 2:21?[ Christ Is Our Example ] For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,
1 Timothy 1:16?Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.
14"If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet.
15"For I gave you an example that you also should do as I did to you.
(Christ as our example)
Can Christ be a fair example to us if He is God?
He must be human or the example part of his ministry is a failure
If Jesus is God and overcomes temptation --- so what?
If Jesus is God and overcomes death and the grave – so what?
There is no example in this for us. There is no hope produced for us in this. There is no fruit from Christ as God.
Your mystery conclusion is a cop out for a doctrine that cannot be proven in scripture and fails to support the overall plan of God as taught in scripture.
In addition you defame God by changing his character to a being that can be tempted and can die. If that is the God you wish to worship then you are Christian in name only because you do not believe in the God of Israel, the Old Testament, the New Testament or the common beliefs of the Christian Church.
You agreee that God is immortal and then say he can die.
You agree that God cannot be tempted and then say of a being that can be tempted (Jesus) that he is God.
These statements are not rational. To hide these irrationalities you throw up the mystery card.
Yahoshea said:
There is no question in the Bible that Jesus is God. I have given you some of the verses. One is spoken directly from God the Father about Jesus being God.So there is and has never been anything to "prove". In the Bible it is never a question, its a very clear fact and clearly so stated.
You can be willfully ignorant of this, but that is simply a choice on your behalf.
blessings
C