Is Jesus equal to His Father?

[Free]

John 1:1-3,14, "1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being....14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

The things to note here:

1. The Word both "was with God" and "was God". This hints at more than one Person in the Godhead and does away with any form of modalism, or Oneness (you cannot be said to be with something if you are that something).

2. The word "was" is the Greek en and expresses continuous action in the past. In other words, the Word has always existed and was already in existence "in the beginning".

3. The biggest point of contention: "was God". Word has the article and God does not, which means the Word is the subject; John is making a statement about who the Word is.
a. if both had the article, "the Word was God" and "God was the Word" would be the same thing.
b. if neither had the article, it would equate all of God with all of the Word; "God" and "Word" would be interchangeable.
c. it cannot be "a god" since that is polytheism, which goes against both Judaism and Christianity.

4. "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."
a. the obvious conclusion here is that Christ could not have been made, otherwise this verse is false.
b. "came into being" uses the Greek egeneto, which denotes a point of origin, an action in time. Contrast that with point 2.

5. "the Word became flesh"--again, egeneto. The Word entered into space-time history, taking the form a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

6. "begotten"--not begetting, but "unique" or "one of a kind".

(Most of the above is from The Forgotten Trinity by James R White).

This is entirely consistent with Phil. 2. Jesus, as the Word, pre-existed eternally with the Father.

Now for Col 1:15-17, with which we again find strong agreement with the above passages.

 

[Free]

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

The things to be considered here:

1. Jesus is "the image" (carries the idea of prototype) of God, the "exact representation of his nature" (Heb 1:3). This is consistent with my point 1 regarding Phil 2:6.

2, "firstborn of all creation" does not mean that he was the first one created by God.
a. it essentially means he is sovereign over all creation; it refers to Christ's position over creation.
b. in the true sense it is understood as "born before the creation", referring to his eternal pre-existence and, therefore, sovereignty over creation.

3. "For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him."
a. the language is all inclusive--"all things" literally means "apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being," as John states.
b. again, this is completely consistent with John 1:3. The only logical conclusion is that Jesus could not have been created or this verse and the next are false.

4. "And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together."
a. again, Christ is "before all things", so he could not have been created.
b. not only has he created all things, he sustains them.


All of this shows the Jesus was not created since he created all things and existed prior to everything that has been created.

 

[Free]

These passages are absolutely key to understanding Christ's relationship to the Father. They form a cohesive whole regarding Christ's eternal pre-existence and his Incarnation. They fully explain why he uses the language he does regarding his relationship to the Father.

As I stated, the trinitarian position best takes into account all the Scriptures reveal about Christ. Those who deny the deity of Christ and relegate him to the domain of creation, cannot even adequately explain the language used in the above passages. This is why, for example, the NWT used by JW's renders such passages "all [other] things" in regards to Christ's creating. Their erroneous theology cannot account for such strong indications of the deity of Christ so they must insert words that are not found in any Greek text in order to make sense of it.

 

[oneisgod]

These passages are absolutely key to understanding Christ's relationship to the Father. They form a cohesive whole regarding Christ's eternal pre-existence and his Incarnation. They fully explain why he uses the language he does regarding his relationship to the Father.

As I stated, the trinitarian position best takes into account all the Scriptures reveal about Christ. Those who deny the deity of Christ and relegate him to the domain of creation, cannot even adequately explain the language used in the above passages. This is why, for example, the NWT used by JW's renders such passages "all [other] things" in regards to Christ's creating. Their erroneous theology cannot account for such strong indications of the deity of Christ so they must insert words that are not found in any Greek text in order to make sense of it.

The Agent of God is not God:-

Acts 3:15
the Chief Agent of life. . . .

Acts 5:31
God exalted this one as Chief Agent and Savior . . .

Hebrews 12:2
as we look intently at the Chief Agent* and Perfecter of our faith, Jesus. . . .
(WNT) simply fixing our gaze upon Jesus, our Prince Leader* in the faith, w

*Lit., “Chief Leader.†Gr., ar·khe·gon′.
*Strong's Gk. #747 á¼€ÃÂÇηγÌ archÄ“gos ar-khay-gos' From G746 and G71; a chief leader: - author, captain, prince.

 

[Mosesjoel]

The circumstances associated with Jesus’ baptism do not suggest that God, Christ, and the holy spirit are coequal. As a human, Jesus underwent baptism in symbol of the presentation of himself to his heavenly Father. On that occasion “the heavens were opened up,†and God’s spirit descended, coming upon Jesus like a dove. Also, “from the heavens,†The Father’s voice was heard to say: “This is my Son, the beloved , whom I have approveâ€Ââ€â€Matthew 3:13-17.

 

[Mosesjoel]

Hello Free,
I am Tony new to the forum.
I just saw one of your scrpture points on Trinitaranism.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
This is one of the most important scriptures for non beleivers in the Trinity, as Jesus was God's firstborn in Creation, his Only Begotton Son.
There was a period who knows in God's time when Jesus did not exist yet, as this scripture proves it.
John 1:1 as referring to the Beginning of substance, Time , matter etc.
Jesus was that beginning, before that was The pure Energy of God and nothing more, stretching the two voids of the Physival one of blackmness and nothingness (the universe did not exist then)
The other Spriritual void of whiteness and nothingness as heaven was not formed yet'
Look at a Ying-Yang symbol that is what it is now!! - the white dot in the black is our universe, the black dot in the white is Heaven , before time it was just black seperate from white, with God as the seperater, by uniting the two endless voids of whiteness and blackness you have existance!!.

 

[Free]

The Agent of God is not God:-

Acts 3:15
the Chief Agent of life. . . .

Acts 5:31
God exalted this one as Chief Agent and Savior . . .

Hebrews 12:2
as we look intently at the Chief Agent* and Perfecter of our faith, Jesus. . . .
(WNT) simply fixing our gaze upon Jesus, our Prince Leader* in the faith, w

*Lit., “Chief Leader.†Gr., ar·khe·gon′.
*Strong's Gk. #747 á¼€ÃÂÇηγÌ archÄ“gos ar-khay-gos' From G746 and G71; a chief leader: - author, captain, prince.

Please address the passages I gave. If you continue to ignore what they plainly say, then you are not taking things in their complete context. Besides, "chief agent", although I suppose it could be rendered that way, is better translated as "chief leader" or "Prince". My guess is that this is just more semantics used by JW's (presumably arguments developed by the Watchtower) to mislead.

Hello Free,
I am Tony new to the forum.

Hello and welcome to the forums.

I just saw one of your scrpture points on Trinitaranism.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
This is one of the most important scriptures for non beleivers in the Trinity, as Jesus was God's firstborn in Creation, his Only Begotton Son.
There was a period who knows in God's time when Jesus did not exist yet, as this scripture proves it.

No. You really need to read carefully what I wrote. Apart from a trinitarian (or binitarian) view of God, this passage makes little, if any, sense. How can there be a time when Jesus did not exist, when the immediate context clearly states, as do other passages I gave, that apart from Jesus nothing exists that exists, and that "all things" were created by and through him? Also, there needs to be a correct understanding of what "firstborn" means. I think I gave a pretty good possibility of what it means.

John 1:1 as referring to the Beginning of substance, Time , matter etc.

Yes, the beginning of creation of all that exists.

Jesus was that beginning, before that was The pure Energy of God and nothing more, stretching the two voids of the Physival one of blackmness and nothingness (the universe did not exist then)
The other Spriritual void of whiteness and nothingness as heaven was not formed yet'
Look at a Ying-Yang symbol that is what it is now!! - the white dot in the black is our universe, the black dot in the white is Heaven , before time it was just black seperate from white, with God as the seperater, by uniting the two endless voids of whiteness and blackness you have existance!!.

I'm not sure if you are using the Yin-Yang symbol as an analogy or if you are purposefully trying to incorporate some Eastern philosophy into a Christian understanding of God and creation. Other than nothingness, the Bible doesn't reveal to us what conditions existed prior to Creation or what form God was.

I'm not convinced that one can claim that nothing existed except for God and then go on to say there were two voids of whiteness and blackness. That would seem to indicate that something other than God existed.

 

[Paidion]

I made this succinct statement:

Jesus is essentially equal to His Father, but not positionally equal.

I have been asked for elaboration. I will let the Scriptures elaborate:

Hebrews 1:3
[The Son] reflects the glory of God and is the exact expression of His essence...

So Jesus is of the same essence as the Father, that is, because the Father begat (or generated) Him, He is Deity in the same sense as the Father is Deity. Thus He is "essentially equal".

John 8:28
... I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

John 14:28 ....my Father is greater than I.

Thus Jesus does not act on his own, but submits to the Father's will before He does anything, and He affirms that the Father is greater in that respect. So Jesus is not positionally equal to the Father, but is the Father's servant.

Furthermore, Jesus did not seek equality with His Father, but instead humbled Himself and took the form of a slave:

Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:5-11

Jesus not only did not try to grasp after equality with God, but he actually humbled Himself and took the form of a slave. He "emptied Himself", that is, divested Himself of all His divine qualities. As a baby he cried for food and wet his diapers like any other baby (in spite of the Xmans carol line "The little Lord Jesus no crying He makes". On earth, He got hungry and thirsty and tired like any other man. He couldn't do any miracles except the Father did them through Him. Indeed, the ONLY aspect of His pre-incarnate existence which He retained was His identity.

His submission to the Father carries into the future. Even though God highly exalted Him, and He will rule in His Kingdom until He has put all His enemies under His feet, He will then turn the Kingdom over to the Father so that God may be all in all (I Corinthians 15)

 

[mutzrein]

Paidion - I agree with some of what you say but not all.

You say that Jesus is essentially equal to His Father. Scripture speaks of equality WITH God - not TO God and there is a great difference.

You say that Jesus is of the same essence as the Father - ie he is Deity. Scripture does not say Jesus is of the same essence as the Father. It says, ‘The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word’.
So, He is the EXPRESSION of his essence – not OF the same essence. You see if you look in the mirror you will see an image or expression or exact representation of your self.
Jesus represents God in much the same way that your image represents you.
Likewise when you speak, the words that you speak represent you. They reflect you. They are an exact representation or expression of your essence (what is in your heart). Your word then, IS you.

It is the same with Christ. He, being the word of God, expresses all that God has ever been, from creation till now. The word (Christ) is obedient to the entire will of the Father, so He is the image of God – but not God himself.

Now I do believe that Christ is divine but deity is reserved for our heavenly father – who alone is God.

 

[Imagican]

Firstly: Most have ignored a VERY significant POINT: In the 'FORM' of God is NOTHING other than Spirit. For WHAT 'form' IS God? It's really that simple.

Christ IS NOT and has NEVER been EQUAL to God. Christ HIMSELF stated such in that 'the Father is GREATER than He'. That is ALL we have to have in order to PLAINLY SEE that Christ is NOT 'equal' TO God.

Of ALL that Christ is described as 'made of' or 'made to' WHO do you BELIEVE was the MAKER? If you do NOT know to what I refer, READ FOLKS.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[shad]

Firstly: Most have ignored a VERY significant POINT: In the 'FORM' of God is NOTHING other than Spirit. For WHAT 'form' IS God? It's really that simple.

Christ IS NOT and has NEVER been EQUAL to God. Christ HIMSELF stated such in that 'the Father is GREATER than He'. That is ALL we have to have in order to PLAINLY SEE that Christ is NOT 'equal' TO God.

Of ALL that Christ is described as 'made of' or 'made to' WHO do you BELIEVE was the MAKER? If you do NOT know to what I refer, READ FOLKS.

Blessings,

MEC

That's exactly right, most people make Bible more complicated to understand than actually is with their own doctrine. It is just ridicurous. :crazy

 

[Free]

mutzrein, and especially shad and Imagican,

Please address the points I made. You all keep going back to specific passages which, taken out of the context of the entirety of the NT, can seem to say something they are not.

I can't help but notice it's all just opinion with no attempt to address the specific passages I gave.

 

[Imagican]

Free,

I don't know what you have offered that I have ignored. Whether in this post or one of the others that is over the SAME issue, I HAVE adressed the first three verses of John. I HAVE addressed the issue concerning the 'raising again of the temple'. I HAVE addressed the issue concerning THE BEGINNING.

Let me add this and see if this is what you are refering to:

EVERYTHING that exists DOES exist THROUGH Christ. Christ IS The Light of men. We have this offering PLAINLY STATED. That means, BEFORE man, Christ existed. Man WAS 'created' FOR Christ and THROUGH Christ was there NOTHING made that HAS been made.

When it was offered that Christ 'MADE Himself', we KNOW that there is 'another' understanding than the LITERAL words offered WHEN we compare scripture TO scripture. For there is MORE that is offered that Christ didn't ACTUALLY make Himself ANYTHING. But GOD 'made' Christ ALL that He IS. For the power, the words, EVERYTHING that Christ IS and EVERYTHING that He offered was GIVEN HIM BY THE FATHER.

Therefore, when the words offered are 'Christ MAKING Himself', what is ACTUALLY being offered is that He ALLOWED it to 'take place'. He CHOSE to be, or HE WILLINGLY ALLOWED IT TO BE SO. For we MUST compare ALL scripture to scripture and NOT just 'pick and choose' those that POINT in the direction that WE choose to understand. God GAVE Christ ALL that He IS. WE HAVE THOSE WORDS. We do NOT have words of Christ offering that HE created ANYTHING. IF SO, show us. Show us words of CHRIST HIMSELF in which is offered that HE 'created' ANYTHING. What He possessed was GIVEN HIM by The Father. THIS IS ALL THAT HE OFFERED over and over again.

Now, compare these words with the ones that you insist haven't been addressed yet and YOU TOO will clearly see that it is YOU that are taking them 'out of context' in order to try and prove something that DOESN'T exist. For it CANNOT be MORE than ONE WAY. Either Christ DID INDEED; MAKE HIMSELF', or this is simply a 'figure of speach' that CAN BE more clrearly defined when compared to OTHER scripture, OR The Father is the ONE who made. It cannot BE 'both ways'. Now, compare scripture to scripture and we SEE the MEANING behind the words. Christ CHOSE or ALLOWED Himself to BE.................... But it was GOD, The Father who DID the 'making'. READ IT FOR YOURSELF.

So, Free, if I missed something so far as questions or scripture, please direct me to it so that I may answer what it is that you seek.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Oh, and Free, perhaps these words, (offered on another thread dealing with the SAME topic), will offer a 'deeper understanding' or an attempt at answering those 'things' that you believe are being ignored:

John 17

1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that, I came out from thee and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Free, these are NOT MY WORDS. These are PURE and SIMPLE words offered us by Christ HIMSELF.
Here we can PLAINLY SEE the answer to those questions that you ask. THESE ARE scripture that YOU MUST compare to OTHER in order to receive a COMPLETE understanding which, by the way, is MUCH simpler than that created by the Catholic Church THREE Hundred YEARS AFTER the death of Christ. These words are TRUTH beyond the ability of men to CHANGE THEM.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Adullam]

Jesus is essentially equal to His Father, but not positionally equal.

I like this. Now I don't want to ruffle any feathers or run over anyone's dogma here, but I have a certain way of seeing the Trinity that I would like to share here. This is not meant as a concrete doctrine but simply a possible picture of something very mysterious and unfathomable to such finite creatures as ourselves.

Namely, that there are depths to holiness. God the Father is 3 times holy...as in Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord our God. This is mentioned a few times in both Rev. and Isaiah.

Jesus Christ is twice Holy...He is permanently a Mediator between the Most High God and the holy family of those called out and chosen from His creation. He is Lord over all creation...which has or will be upgraded to the level of holiness in the next age.

The Holy Spirit is Holy, and meant to indwell those who have surrendered to the Lordship of Christ. So in the age to come, the Holy Spirit lives on but now in the family of God, we each being a dwelling place for His fullness and a vessel of His holiness.....forever.

<><

John

 

[Free]

I don't know what you have offered that I have ignored. Whether in this post or one of the others that is over the SAME issue, I HAVE adressed the first three verses of John. I HAVE addressed the issue concerning the 'raising again of the temple'. I HAVE addressed the issue concerning THE BEGINNING.

I made three significant posts concerning three significant passages. You have not even tried to address the specific points I made. My posts show why your understanding of John 1:1-3 are severely lacking. None of the Scriptures you have posted prove the Trinity to be false in any way whatsoever.

 

[MarkT]

mutzrein and MarkT,

I will show why your understandings of the passage in Phil. 2 is inconsistent with the other two passages I gave.

Phi 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Phi 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Phi 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Phi 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

A few things to note:

1. Christ existed "in the form of God," that is, he appeared as God. The NIV renders this as "being in very nature God".

Ok. He had the appearance of God. But nature and form are two different things. When Paul says 'the form of a servant', he is talking about our form and our being. We are human beings. We have the appearance of men. To be consistent, 'the form of God' must be spirit in being and likeness; having the appearance of God Almighty.

If the NIV renders it as 'being in very nature God', that's saying something different, I think. Perhaps not. We are by nature evil. God is by nature good, (and unchanging - he never grows old). But Jesus said, 'Why do you call me good. Only God is good.' I think if anything we might say he was spirit before taking our form. Indeed he was the Word of God.

2. "a thing to be grasped" is best understood as "a thing to be forcefully retained".

I wouldn't say that. Certainly it's not robbery to retain what belongs to you (to forcefully retain something that already belongs to you doesn't make sense). If it already belongs to you, then you would not call it robbery. The KJV says, 'Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.' But where it says, 'thought', there is a thinking process going on - something to be considered. He thought equality with God was not something that can be stolen.

If the definition of 'robbery' is stealing, and what can be stolen is 'equality', then we might say he did not consider 'equality' something that can be obtained by theft. That's what the devil wants. He wants us to worship him as God. But equality isn't something that can be stolen from God.

A better understanding is equality is not something that can be attained or grasped.

This is entirely consistent with point 1 and shows why the KJV renders it as "robbery".
a. being in nature God, Jesus did not consider that something to be held onto

What do you mean by 'that'? He did not consider being in nature God something to retain? God didn't consider his own nature something to forcefully retain? Why? Because he was in nature God? Certainly it's not robbery to retain what belongs to you. But then it says he emptied himself. Emptied or retained - did he retain or did he empty? Did he make himself equal to God or did he humble himself?

b. look at the language: "though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing". The word usage makes little sense if Jesus "did not count equality with God a thing to be attained." It only makes sense if he was already God in nature.

Paul said he was made lower than the angels for a while. Heb. 2:7 So there was a huge drop. But it's not saying he was equal with God; only that he was in the form of God.

3. He, that is Jesus, "made himself nothing" or "emptied himself". Again, this is consistent with point 1
a. it was he who emptied himself, which shows that he had the power to do so
b. he had been something (as opposed to the "nothing" that he became).

Right. But the power came from God.

4. Christ took "the form of a servant," that is, he was "born in the likeness of men"
a. this is consistent with all previous points since it would mean that being in "the form of God" would have meant he was in the likeness of God.
b. it is apparent that Jesus existed prior to his "being born in the likeness of men"

Right.

5. "being found in human form, he humbled himself"
a. Jesus, the Son, humbled himself to the will of the Father for the salvation of man.

Right.

This passage perfectly explains the relationship of the Son to the Father. Although Jesus was in nature God, he chose to humble himself by being born as a man so that he could die on the Cross for the salvation of man, being obedient to the Father. Since he emptied himself to become human, he was dependent on the Father, which is entirely consistent with the statements he makes of himself and his relationship to the Father.

Well God made him, and he didn't choose anything. He proceeded from God. He was sent, and he willingly took our form. But it says, 'and being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient'. This is saying when he realized who he was he humbled himself and became obedient.

 

[Paidion]

You say that Jesus is of the same essence as the Father - ie he is Deity. Scripture does not say Jesus is of the same essence as the Father. It says, ‘The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word’.
So, He is the EXPRESSION of his essence – not OF the same essence. You see if you look in the mirror you will see an image or expression or exact representation of your self.
Jesus represents God in much the same way that your image represents you.
Likewise when you speak, the words that you speak represent you. They reflect you. They are an exact representation or expression of your essence (what is in your heart). Your word then, IS you.

Jesus is much more than "a reflection" of God. He is His only begotten Son. If you have begotten a son, your son is not a mere "reflection" of you; he is human like you. He is part of humanity. When God begat His Son at the beginning of time, He begat Another like Himself. The Son of God was divine like His Father. He is part of Deity. There are billions of members of humanity, but there are only two members of Deity, the Father, and His only-begotten Son. The Father begat no other Son; The Logos was the "only begotten Son". Indeed, the earliest manscripts call Him "the only begotten God" in John 1:18. The Father of all was unbegotten. None of the angels were begotten; they were created, including Michael the archangel. Jesus was not Michael in His pre-human form, though He was called "The angel of Yahweh" in some contexts. That's because the primary meaning of the word "angel" is simply "messenger", and Jesus in His pre-human form was certainly a messenger of His Father.

As for Hebrews 1:3, the Son of God is said to be the ÇαÃÂακÄηàof God's ὑÀοÃĀαÃιÂ, that is the precise reproduction in every respect, of the Father's essence or essential nature. Please examine the following definitions of these two Greek words from the Online Bible Greek Lexicon:

ÇαÃÂακÄηàcharakter khar-ak-tare'

from the same as 5482; TDNT-9:418,1308; n m

AV-express image 1; 1

1) the instrument used for engraving or carving
2) the mark stamped upon that instrument or wrought out on it
2a) a mark or figure burned in (#Le 13:28) or stamped on, an impression
2b) the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e facsimile

5287 ὑÀοÃĀαÃι hupostasis hoop-os’-tas-is

from a compound of 5259 and 2476; TDNT-8:572,1237; n f

AV-confidence 2, confident 1, person 1, substance 1; 5

1) a setting or placing under
1a) thing put under, substructure, foundation
2) that which has foundation, is firm
2a) that which has actual existence
2a1) a substance, real being
2b) the substantial quality, nature, of a person or thing
2c) the steadfastness of mind, firmness, courage, resolution
2c1) confidence, firm trust, assurance

 

[Imagican]

Ok Free, I'll do my best to 'go back to the beginning' and address each issue that I 'think' you are refering to.

Phi 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Phi 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Phi 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Phi 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

I am confused as to WHY anyone would even ATTEMPT to use such scripture as this above to justify 'trinity'. Watch:

Firstly, Christ OPENLY Offeres that He DID NOT believe EQUALITY with God to EVEN BE a 'thing to be grasped'. This means that EVEN HE could not FATHOM the thought of BEING equal TO God. Next verse: absolutely CLEAR. He accepted being MADE in the FORM of a 'servant'. The next words EXPLAIN what is meant by these: BEING born in the LIKENESS of MEN. The next words are JUST as clear: once He was MADE in the form of a MAN, he humbled Himself EVEN TO THE POINT OF DEATH.

Now, if you have any questions concerning a futherance of explanation concerning these verses, let me know.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Free,

allow me to continue:

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.
Col 1:19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,

First verse above: Christ IS the IMAGE of the INVISIBLE God. But to say that this is offering that HE IS GOD is LUDICROUS, for it STATES that GOD IS INVISIBLE. Christ is the IMAGE, (NOT LITERAL, but figuratively, He IS that which was SENT to deliver God's Word. So IN THIS ESSENCE, He IS the IMAGE OF the INVISIBLE GOD). Read the NEXT verse and it becomes apparent just HOW DESPARATE an attempt it is indeed to use the first to say ANYTHING other than what has been PLAINLY offered: Christ IS The FIRSTBORN of ALL CREATION. That BEFORE 'the beginning' Christ WAS The SON OF GOD. Therefore; of ALL creation, Christ IS PARAMOUNT. The power, the Spirit, the UNDERSTANDING, the LOVE; ALL Of this was MANIFEST IN CHRIST. Therefore, ALL that Christ IS IS the FULNESS of God. Now, note the word PLEASED. This IS significant in that IF Christ had NOT been obedient AS, (let's say Satan), the FULNESS of God would NOT have been PLEASED to dwell within HIM. Get it? I know that this is NOT a perfect analogy, but it is close enough for one to SEE that this is NOT an offering that Christ IS God for the fulness that dwelt within Him, but simply an offering that ALL that God offered was ACCEPTED by the ONE called Christ. And not ONLY did He accept it, but the Spirit was PLEASED to BE within the one named Christ.

Blessings,

MEC