Is Jesus equal to His Father?

[Imagican]

Joh 14:28 Ye heard how I said to you, I go away, and I come unto you. If ye loved me, ye would have rejoiced, because I go unto the Father: for the Father is greater than I.

Just read what the Bible says, without adding your own "interpretations"

You are right, trinitarians add their own doctrine and ignoring what Jesus has to say about Himself and His Father. It is really sad the way they are messing around with the Scripture.

Shad, if you want to add something substantive to this debate, then feel free to do so. But please don't post such comments with nothing to back it up.

My post made clear the relation of the Son to the Father. The trinitarian position not only takes into account the passage you posted in the OP but it also takes into account the passages I posted. Your position takes into account the passage you posted but completely fails to address the passages I posted. Do you see the problem?

While shad may not be the most eloquent speaker that I have ever witnessed, I don't believe that anything has been offered in the above reponse that deserves chastisement. For we ARE here to discuss doctrinal issues such AS 'trinity'. IF 'trinity' is able to STAND in truth, then NOTHING that can be offered will be ABLE to take ONE TIT from it.

From his perspective AND mine, what he has stated is, although BLUNT and to the POINT, correct. For what 'trinity' IS is nothing other than a FEEBLE attempt of men to MAKE something FIT that they were familiar with PREVIOUS to their introduction to CHRIST. And those that have simply ACCEPTED It, have done NOTHING other than offer what OTHER MEN have TAUGHT them to BELIEVE. The Word stands clear and IN IT, there is NO 'trinity'. That is a "MAN-MADE' invention that has NEVER been offered up in scripture PERIOD.

Now, some CONTEND that it IS the 'complete' understanding of what has been offered. I can SHOW PLENTY of scripture that WARNS us NOT to accept the 'wisdom of men' that WOULD come and TRY to alter the 'simplicity that IS Christ JESUS' into 'something of their OWN MAKING'. I believe that this is EXACTLY what 'trinity' IS.

Now, IF it is TRUTH, then it is ABLE to 'stand on it's OWN'. I contend that since NO ONE ON THIS PLANET would have EVER even HEARD the word 'trinity', in regards to God or Christ, had not SOME MAN introduced it, then it is NOT to be WORSHIPED OR BELIEVED. We ARE to compare scripture TO scripture and NO WHERE in it's entirety is 'trinity' EVEN MENTIONED.

So, instead of an attempt at chastisement in order to stifle the truth, perhaps UNDERSTANDING would be MORE in order. For we are NOT here to PUSH OUR way ANYWHERE. I THOUGHT that we were here to gain a DEEPER understanding and perhaps a more POSITIVE relationship. If that is NOT the case, then all we are offering are OUR words any way. I HOPE that this is NOT the 'case'. For there IS deeper understanding and there IS the ability to gain a closer relationship. But we CANNOT attain EITHER by following words of MEN rather than the wholesome knowledge and wisdom that has been granted us IN THE WORD.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

How about this: IF those that believe in 'trinity' are ABLE to offer words that PROVE it, then perhaps it SHOULD be accepted. Or, better yet, if those that DON'T believe in it are able to offer words that DISPROVE it, then perhaps THAT would be the PRUDENT direction to follow.

Now, with this in mind, do any that believe in 'trinity' BELIEVE that they are ABLE to offer words that PROVE it?

For I KNOW that I can offer words that DISPROVE it. That I can offer words that MUST be COMPLETELY manipulated in meaning in order to twist them into 'something else'. I mean CLEAR words that MUST be manipulated in a 'belief' of 'trinity'.

The Father is GREATER than I. The firstborn of EVERY creature. The Son of God. Father forgive them for they know not what they do. What I offer was GIVEN me of the Father. The Father IS God. God The Father. This IS my beloved SON in whom I am well pleased. Not MY will but THINE be done. ONLY the Father knows the time.

I could probably sit here ALL NIGHT and post such PLAIN and SIMPLE statements that PLAINLY show that there is NO 'trinity'. That the Father, The Son and the HOLY Spirit are NOT God HImself and that this whole philosphical concept was created by those that believed that there MUST be something MORE to it than something SO SIMPLE. God IS God and there is ONLY ONE. The Father IS This ONE true God. The Son IS exactly what BOTH Father and Son stated that He IS; The Son of God. One CAN most definitely STILL be monotheistic, (not that such a label or word MATTERS in the BIG picture), WITHOUT a belief in either 'trinity' or 'modelism'. I can simply worship AS Christ TOLD us TO. When asked, He did NOT say that we are to PRAY to HIM. He stated that ANYTHING that we ask IN HIS NAME would be granted BY God. But we are to PRAY TO THE FATHER.

I BELIEVE that there is but ONE true God. And this God is the Father of Jesus Christ. This God is MY Father. Christ NOW sits at the RIGHT hand of MY God. A position GIVEN Him by HIS FATHER.

Now, I await responses of clear words that PLAINLY show a 'trinity'.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[mutzrein]

mutzrein, and especially shad and Imagican,

Please address the points I made. You all keep going back to specific passages which, taken out of the context of the entirety of the NT, can seem to say something they are not.

I can't help but notice it's all just opinion with no attempt to address the specific passages I gave.

Sorry Free. I didn't think I had responded to any of your posts in this thread. Do I owe you a response to something?

 

[mutzrein]

mutzrein, and especially shad and Imagican,

Please address the points I made. You all keep going back to specific passages which, taken out of the context of the entirety of the NT, can seem to say something they are not.

I can't help but notice it's all just opinion with no attempt to address the specific passages I gave.

Sorry Free. I didn't think I had responded to any of your posts in this thread. Do I owe you a response to something?

 

[Free]

mutzrein, and especially shad and Imagican,

Please address the points I made. You all keep going back to specific passages which, taken out of the context of the entirety of the NT, can seem to say something they are not.

I can't help but notice it's all just opinion with no attempt to address the specific passages I gave.

Sorry Free. I didn't think I had responded to any of your posts in this thread. Do I owe you a response to something?

lol, no, you don't owe me anything. I didn't word that sentence right at all.

 

[Free]

Oh, and Free, perhaps these words, (offered on another thread dealing with the SAME topic), will offer a 'deeper understanding' or an attempt at answering those 'things' that you believe are being ignored:

John 17

1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that, I came out from thee and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Free, these are NOT MY WORDS. These are PURE and SIMPLE words offered us by Christ HIMSELF.
Here we can PLAINLY SEE the answer to those questions that you ask. THESE ARE scripture that YOU MUST compare to OTHER in order to receive a COMPLETE understanding which, by the way, is MUCH simpler than that created by the Catholic Church THREE Hundred YEARS AFTER the death of Christ. These words are TRUTH beyond the ability of men to CHANGE THEM.

Blessings,

MEC

And here are a couple for you to "receive a complete understanding":

Isa 42:8 I am the LORD; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols.

Isa 48:11 For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another.

Please compare those with the one verse I enlarged in your quite.

 

[Free]

Ok Free, I'll do my best to 'go back to the beginning' and address each issue that I 'think' you are refering to.

Phi 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Phi 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Phi 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Phi 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

I am confused as to WHY anyone would even ATTEMPT to use such scripture as this above to justify 'trinity'. Watch:

Firstly, Christ OPENLY Offeres that He DID NOT believe EQUALITY with God to EVEN BE a 'thing to be grasped'. This means that EVEN HE could not FATHOM the thought of BEING equal TO God.

No, it means that he did not regard equality with God something that he should not let go of, something that he should not forcibly retain. That best fits the context of the passage.

Next verse: absolutely CLEAR. He accepted being MADE in the FORM of a 'servant'. The next words EXPLAIN what is meant by these: BEING born in the LIKENESS of MEN. The next words are JUST as clear: once He was MADE in the form of a MAN, he humbled Himself EVEN TO THE POINT OF DEATH.

And I explained those. I have no problem at with that. But you have to compare that with Jesus first being found in the form of God then emptying himself. If he was a mere creature to begin with, of what did he empty himself of and how could he have done it himself?

 

[Free]

EVERYTHING that exists DOES exist THROUGH Christ. Christ IS The Light of men. We have this offering PLAINLY STATED. That means, BEFORE man, Christ existed. Man WAS 'created' FOR Christ and THROUGH Christ was there NOTHING made that HAS been made.

Agreed. The important parts, those which contradict your position, I bolded.

When it was offered that Christ 'MADE Himself', we KNOW that there is 'another' understanding than the LITERAL words offered WHEN we compare scripture TO scripture. For there is MORE that is offered that Christ didn't ACTUALLY make Himself ANYTHING. But GOD 'made' Christ ALL that He IS. For the power, the words, EVERYTHING that Christ IS and EVERYTHING that He offered was GIVEN HIM BY THE FATHER.

I cannot address the rest of that post since you really lose me by continuing to state something about Christ making himself. I have never made such an argument and Scripture never states that either, so I don't know where you have gotten that from.

 

[kingdavid]

jesus christ said that his Father was greater than him

 

[Free]

Yes, he did. But as I have stated so many times, context is everything. Take what Jesus said in the context of Phil 2:5-8.

 

[kingdavid]

Yes, he did. But as I have stated so many times, context is everything. Take what Jesus said in the context of Phil 2:5-8.

according to the laws of adoption, when a son came to the age of full maturity, he received half or 50% of what the father owned or in other words an EQUAL portion. he wasn't equal in stature

 

[Free]

That has nothing to do with Phil 2.

 

[kingdavid]

That has nothing to do with Phil 2.

that is exactly what phillipians is talking about. jesus came to the age of full maturity, the stature of a perfect man(the very image or form of God)-the time of adoption. half of all the Father had belonged to Christ so he wasn't robbing God because it was given him by God

 

[Free]

Where is adoption mentioned or even implied in that passage?

 

[Jon-Marc]

Not only is Jesus "The Word" equal to God, He IS God. Why is it so difficult for people who claim to be Christians to wrap their minds around the fact that God is a Triune God, the Father, Son (the Word), and the Holy Spirit, THREE in ONE? "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost (or Holy Spirit), and these three are one." 1 John 5:7

These three are ONE. God is so awesome and majestic that He needs Three manifestations of Himself in order to make Himself known. The Three, Father, Son (Or Word), and the Holy Ghost (or Spirit) are ONE and the SAME! ONE God, ONE LORD in THREE manifestations. Why is that so hard to believe or accept?

 

[kingdavid]

Not only is Jesus "The Word" equal to God, He IS God. Why is it so difficult for people who claim to be Christians to wrap their minds around the fact that God is a Triune God, the Father, Son (the Word), and the Holy Spirit, THREE in ONE? "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost (or Holy Spirit), and these three are one." 1 John 5:7

These three are ONE. God is so awesome and majestic that He needs Three manifestations of Himself in order to make Himself known. The Three, Father, Son (Or Word), and the Holy Ghost (or Spirit) are ONE and the SAME! ONE God, ONE LORD in THREE manifestations. Why is that so hard to believe or accept?

because it is a false doctrine and heresy propogated by tertullian. Jesus is not the Son-God or God the Son. He was not eternal like God, the Father. He had a beginning b4 the foundation of the world where Elohim Himself gave birth to His Son. the Son of God had a beginning and Elohim did not.


After Elohim begot his Son b4 the foudation of the earth, then thru and by His Son He created all things

 

[shad]

because it is a false doctrine and heresy propogated by tertullian. Jesus is not the Son-God or God the Son. He was not eternal like God, the Father. He had a beginning b4 the foundation of the world where Elohim Himself gave birth to His Son. the Son of God had a beginning and Elohim did not.

Amen :yes

 

[Free]

He was not eternal like God, the Father.

I have adequately shown that Jesus is eternal. According to Scripture it cannot be otherwise.

 

[Imagican]

Not only is Jesus "The Word" equal to God, He IS God. Why is it so difficult for people who claim to be Christians to wrap their minds around the fact that God is a Triune God, the Father, Son (the Word), and the Holy Spirit, THREE in ONE? "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost (or Holy Spirit), and these three are one." 1 John 5:7

These three are ONE. God is so awesome and majestic that He needs Three manifestations of Himself in order to make Himself known. The Three, Father, Son (Or Word), and the Holy Ghost (or Spirit) are ONE and the SAME! ONE God, ONE LORD in THREE manifestations. Why is that so hard to believe or accept?

This is what YOU have 'come to accept and believe'. While many of us have NOT. It's not a matter of 'how difficult it IS', it's a matter of SHOULD I?

I could VERY easily 'profess' that Christ IS God Himself. The only problem is that I have a relatively healthy relationship with God THROUGH His Son and DON'T believe nor has it been revealed to ME that they are a 'triune God'. If anything, just the opposite is true.

You would again, quote the first three verses of John and state that his SAYS that Jesus Christ IS God. Now, as I have asked others, PLEASE explain the later verse in the SAME chapter where John, this SAME John, states that NO MAN HAS EVER SEEN GOD. It does NOT say that no man has ever seen ALL THREE PARTS. It doesn't say that no man has ever seen the FATHER. It says EXACTLY THIS: no man has EVER seen God.

18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

If this is not a PURE indication of what I believe, then I believe in nothing. Please read what is offered above and tell us what THIS means to YOU.

It states:

No man has EVER SEEN God. EVER AT ANY TIME. But, the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of God, hath TOLD US OF God. Herein lies the pertinence of the FIRST three verses that you would quote as John offering that Christ IS God. But what is actually offered is that Christ is the REPRESENTATIVE of God's WORD. For it was CHRIST who DECLARED or TOLD John OF God.

You cannot simply take the first three verses and base doctrine on them UNLESS they are ABLE to stand UP to the REST of the Word. I, a measly 'church of one', am able to show plainly that these three lines do NOT conform, as OFFERED by those that insist upon 'trinity', to the REST of the Word. Golly, I have JUST shown how they don't even stand UP to the REST of the chapter in which they were OFFERED.

So it's NOT the inability to SUBMIT, it's simply a matter of searching for the TRUTH. For HOW can we even BEGIN to follow ANYTHING until we are certain as to WHAT it IS first. Otherwise, we may as well follow whatever we WANT to believe and not even worry about the TRUTH.

For it is YOU that has 'superimposed' The Word over the NAME of Christ. It is YOU that has stated that The Word IS Christ and IS God. From my understanding the Word IS The Word of God. The MEANS of communication between man and God. In this instance the representative IS Christ. But the use of The Word is MORE figurative than LITERAL. For the first three verses of John could JUST as easily stated that 'in the beginning was Christ, and Christ was WITH God. And Christ WAS God. But it's funny, that is NOT what it says. It say that 'in the beginning was The Word. It is YOU that takes it upon yourself to BELIEVE that it is stating that Christ IS The Word.

And DON'T you believe that IF Paul were offering here that Christ WAS God Himself, he would have certainly offered this SOMEWHERE. An OUTRIGHT STATEMENT that Christ IS God? Or, do you believe as others have offered, that JOHN didn't REALLY recognize the TRUTH and it took HUNDREDS of years after HIS death for OTHERS to figure out what he REALLY MEANT?

So, I will be patiently waiting on your response.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Adullam]

Take a cup of water from the sea.

Now is the water contained in the cup the same in nature as the sea?

Is the water in the cup the same age as the sea?

Is the sea greater than the water held in the cup?

If you taste the water in the cup, have you tasted the sea?