Is Jesus equal to His Father?

[Imagican]

Let's see what we can deduce from scripture concerning this issue:

John 3

36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 5:20

For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

John 10:29

My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 13:16

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

John 14:28

Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

1 John 5:9 (King James Version)

9If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

Hmm......................Now let's SEE................Everything offered here states that God is GREATER than Christ. And there is MUCH more concerning EVERYTHING of Christ was GIVEN Him by God.

Now, other than some mystical mumbo jumbo, please show a clear statement that refutes the words of Christ Himself.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Free]

Why do you continue to ignore Phil 2, Imagican??? No one will ever find a statement that refutes what Christ said because no one is trying to refute what he said.

 

[shad]

Why do you continue to ignore Phil 2, Imagican??? No one will ever find a statement that refutes what Christ said because no one is trying to refute what he said.

Free,

you are ignoring above verses Imagican quoted.

 

[kingdavid]

Why do you continue to ignore Phil 2, Imagican??? No one will ever find a statement that refutes what Christ said because no one is trying to refute what he said.

why do you keep using that scripture to misinterpret the word and refute other scriptures? don't you know that the scriptures do not contradict themselves? you obviously are misinterpretting phillipians 2 in the light of john 10. i have already expalined this previously. it states in phillipians that christ was in the form of God. that didn't come into complete fruition until God indwelled him at the age of full maturity(30). christ grew into the stature of a perfect man and thus half or an equal part of the father's kingdom was imparted or given him. his signatue on the check was just as good as the Father's

 

[Veritas]

you obviously are misinterpretting phillipians 2 in the light of john 10. i have already expalined this previously. it states in phillipians that christ was in the form of God. that didn't come into complete fruition until God indwelled him at the age of full maturity(30). christ grew into the stature of a perfect man and thus half or an equal part of the father's kingdom was imparted or given him. his signatue on the check was just as good as the Father's

This is incorrect. Jesus' divinity is confirmed in John 10 as a closer look reveals.

Imagician brought up one of the verses here:

John 10:29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

That verse is bounded by two clear statements which confirm who Jesus is:

Before, by John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
and after by John 10:30
I and the Father are one."

Phillipians 2:6-7 puts these statements into context

Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

Again, look at Jesus' statement in John 10:28. Jesus gives eternal life. Now, look what God said to Isaiah seven hundred years before:

Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me. I, even I, am the LORD,
and apart from me there is no savior. Isaiah 43:10-11

Jesus is no savior unless Jesus is God.

 

[Free]

Why do you continue to ignore Phil 2, Imagican??? No one will ever find a statement that refutes what Christ said because no one is trying to refute what he said.

Free,

you are ignoring above verses Imagican quoted.

I have not ignored one verse that Imagican has posted. As I have said many times already and will continue to say, the the doctrine of the Trinity not only takes all of Imagican's verses into account, it takes all into account that the Scriptures reveal about God. Imagican's position must avoid certain passages, as I have pointed out.

It is apparent that several of you really do not understand the doctrine of the Trinity and that is perhaps why you are so against it.

 

[epistemaniac]

Free,

You and your trinitarian friends are ignoring so many clear statements of Jesus.

what about statements made by Paul...?

Titus 2:13-14 (ESV) [13] waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, [14] who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works."

The plain, literal teaching of scripture here that says Jesus is our great God and savior... who is anyone to disagree with what the bible itself says?

Further, Paul apparently knew of the anti-trinitarians that would come, for he says right after this, as a warning to Titus and by implication, all Christians to come after him....:
Titus 2:15 (ESV) Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you."

So in the authority of the holy Scriptures, I am rebuking all anti-Trinitarians with the clear teaching of Scripture, which says that Jesus was both God and man...

blessings,
ken

 

[Imagican]

Free, I assume that these verses are those to which you refered:

Phil 2:
4Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

Notice that AFTER this verse, it states to "Let THIS MIND be IN YOU, which was ALSO IN CHRIST"

5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

If you LOOK at how this is offered, it becomes apparent that all that is offered after this is in reference to 'LET THIS MIND BE IN YOU

6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure

Now, what PURPOSE would the words, "thought it NOT robbery to be equal with God"? Let me offer a bit of 'insight'. Firstly, do we KNOW that Christ was EQUAL with God in EVERY WAY? NO, we do NOT KNOW this. What we DO KNOW is that Christ was FILLED with what the Father had GIVEN Him. And what was THIS? All we need do is READ in order to discern.

First, Christ was once IN THE FORM OF GOD. What FORM IS God? God is SPIRIT. Therefore we can righteously and accurately presume that Christ WAS Spirit BEFORE becoming flesh.

It states that He became OBEDIENT unto DEATH. Regardless of the wording indicating that He MADE Himself, the WORD states that He WAS OBEDIENT. Obedient EVEN unto death. This is an outright STATEMENT that He was NOT ONLY obedient unto death. He was OBEDIENT PERIOD, EVEN unto death.

When we read on we find these words: "Wherefore GOD also hath HIGHLY exalted Him, and GAVE Him a name which is above EVERY name. The key word is GIVEN.

Next it states that ALL of this is for the GLORY of GOD THE FATHER.

Now, let us 'go back' to the words concerning Robbery. Why do you reacon that THIS PARTICULAR PHRASE was offered in the MANNER that it WAS? We need to 'go back' a little bit in history.

There was a TIME when an angel of God decided that BEING an angel was NO ENOUGH. This angel rebelled and tried to TAKE God's power. We KNOW that there was a REVOLT in heaven and Satan LOST. The ONLY thing to GAIN in that revolt was the POWER of God. Satan LITERALLY tried to STEAL God's power. In other words, Satan attempted to ROB God of His power.

Now, in the case of what is offered above, Jesus, on the other hand, willingly ACCEPTED the power that God granted Him and OPENLY acknowledged that the power was NOT HIS OWN, but GIVEN HIM of The Father. THIS is the REASON that the word ROBBERY was used. For Christ was WELL AWARE of WHERE His power CAME from and willingly ACCEPTED this truth. So it is apparent that He thought it NOT robbery to be equal in such manner WITH GOD HIMSELF, His Father.

While there is NO actual distinction offered in Christ's equality, (it simply states 'to be equal with God'), those that KNOW that God is GREATER than Christ, (His OWN WORDS), are ABLE to recognize that Christ was NOT equal in ALL manner to God. Only in certain ATTRIBUTES GIVEN HIM BY GOD. And we KNOW this to be truth for the words of Christ OFTEN plainly SHOWED us that the Father IS Greater than the Son. And that there were certain THINGS that ONLY God Himself knows the answer to. So in EVERYTHING, God and Christ were NOT equal.

Now, you would contend that these scritpure are offering that Christ and God are THE SAME. That Christ IS God for the attributes GIVEN Him BY God. I contend that this is simply NOT what is being offered in these scriptures. What is BEING offered is that Christ humbled Himself, took ON that which God attributed to HIM, and was willing to BOW to the will of God His Father. And He did NOT consider it ROBBERY to be equal with God in ALL that God GAVE Him for He openly acknowledged that the power GIVEN Him was FROM God. He attempted to TAKE NOTHING nor take the CREDIT for ANYTHING. ALWAYS offering the GLORY TO GOD. And in this respect, it was NOT 'robbery' by which He came unto that which was GIVEN HIM, the attributes were BESTOWED UPON HIM, they were NONE OF HIS OWN.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[kingdavid]

Free,

You and your trinitarian friends are ignoring so many clear statements of Jesus.

what about statements made by Paul...?

Titus 2:13-14 (ESV) [13] waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, [14] who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works."

The plain, literal teaching of scripture here that says Jesus is our great God and savior... who is anyone to disagree with what the bible itself says?

Further, Paul apparently knew of the anti-trinitarians that would come, for he says right after this, as a warning to Titus and by implication, all Christians to come after him....:
Titus 2:15 (ESV) Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you."

So in the authority of the holy Scriptures, I am rebuking all anti-Trinitarians with the clear teaching of Scripture, which says that Jesus was both God and man...

blessings,
ken

the son of God and God himself were One like he said but not one like your finger one. he said that i am in my Father and the Father in me. when christ was here in the flesh, God-the Father dwelled in him. they were not seperate from each other. it was the both of them manifest in the self-same person but you only see one, not 2. it was the same way in the Spirit but in reverse. Christ dwelled in God-the Father-the Word. or as john said jesus is in the bosom of the Father. it is the both of them in the self-same person in the Spirit and in the Flesh. that is why John wrote, he that has the doctrine of Christ has BOTH the Father and Son. You can't have one without the other

 

[Imagican]

Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me. I, even I, am the LORD,
and apart from me there is no savior. Isaiah 43:10-11

Jesus is no savior unless Jesus is God.

This is UTTER deceptive practice in order to prove one's view. For NO ONE has EVER claimed that Chirst is APART from God.

And God IS our Savior THROUGH His Son; Jesus Christ. For Christ and God ARE one. For EVERYTHING that Chirst possessed was GIVEN Him BY GOD.

You have stated that Christ HAD to BE God in order to be Our Savior. This is simply misdirection of interpretation.

For God IS ABLE to DO what so ever He chooses. And that He chose to bring Salvation to man through His Son does NOT mean that The Son HAS to BE God.

Scripture MUST agree with scripture for there to BE true doctrine. And it has been PLAINLY shown over and over that MUCH of what 'trinity' teaches does NOT agree with the REST of what is offered. Regardless of words of wisdom offered by MEN, the word itself was NEVER offered up in scripture. Now, HOW one could come to believe in something that was OBVIOUSLY never offered up in scritpure is BEYOND ME.

And, when we consider that we were WARNED that there WOULD COME those that would DO THIS VERY THING. What MORE does one NEED to 'come to the truth'?

We were TOLD to REMAIN FAITHFUL to the DOCTRINES offered up by the apostles. NOW, all it takes to prove or disprove 'trinity' is COMPARE it to THESE words. Now, SHOW that it was EVER taught by AN apostle and it may have SOME validity. But, since it was NEVER so done OBVIOUSLY shows that it is a DIFFERENT doctrine than that TAUGHT by the apostles. Plain and simple.

I do NOT mean that one can NOT twist the words offered by the apostles into the creation of MANY doctrines. That is WHY we were TOLD to compare scripture TO scripture to find TRUTH. And there is MUCH scripture that refutes 'trinity'.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[MarkT]

John 1:1-3,14, "1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being....14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

The things to note here:

1. The Word both "was with God" and "was God". This hints at more than one Person in the Godhead and does away with any form of modalism, or Oneness (you cannot be said to be with something if you are that something).

2. The word "was" is the Greek en and expresses continuous action in the past. In other words, the Word has always existed and was already in existence "in the beginning".

3. The biggest point of contention: "was God". Word has the article and God does not, which means the Word is the subject; John is making a statement about who the Word is.
a. if both had the article, "the Word was God" and "God was the Word" would be the same thing.
b. if neither had the article, it would equate all of God with all of the Word; "God" and "Word" would be interchangeable.
c. it cannot be "a god" since that is polytheism, which goes against both Judaism and Christianity.

4. "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."
a. the obvious conclusion here is that Christ could not have been made, otherwise this verse is false.
b. "came into being" uses the Greek egeneto, which denotes a point of origin, an action in time. Contrast that with point 2.

5. "the Word became flesh"--again, egeneto. The Word entered into space-time history, taking the form a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

6. "begotten"--not begetting, but "unique" or "one of a kind".

(Most of the above is from The Forgotten Trinity by James R White).

This is entirely consistent with Phil. 2. Jesus, as the Word, pre-existed eternally with the Father.

Now for Col 1:15-17, with which we again find strong agreement with the above passages.

You're substituting *God* for *the Word*; reading but not understanding. To know the Word, you have to bear in mind what a word is. What is a word? A word is a tool. And how do we get words? Where do they come from? How are words used? What are words used for? Words come from us. We create words. We speak words.

Words are created! And words have meaning. Words carry information - wisdom, knowledge, and understanding - light. All of these things, and anything else you can think of, have to be in your mind before you can understand.

How many words does God have in him? Who is the most important word? The answer is his name. *The LORD* is the most important word.

You can't substitute *God* for *the Word*. The statement would have no meaning. Words are created. God is uncreated. The Word came from the One who created the Word.

The Word was in the form of God. Form implies shape/likeness. It also implies sight. So it was possible for Adam and Eve to see the form of God in the garden. We know he was the first act of God. Pr. 8:22 - 'The LORD created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.' Who else was created in the beginning, before the beginning of the earth? Proverbs 8 tells us he was created before the earth. And Jesus said, 'glorify me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made.' John 17:5 Even Jesus says he was with God before the world was made.

We also know that the Word didn't have life in himself - not as God has life in himself - until it was granted him to have life in himself. We get this from what Jesus said - 'For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.' John 5:26

God made the light in the beginning. That's who the Word was. He was *the LORD* - the name by whom we know God. He was God because he was the name. It was through him that God created everything - through *the LORD*. You could say the LORD (meaning God)made everything through the LORD (his namesake). God does everything for his name's sake.

 

[kingdavid]

John 1:1-3,14, "1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being....14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

The things to note here:

1. The Word both "was with God" and "was God". This hints at more than one Person in the Godhead and does away with any form of modalism, or Oneness (you cannot be said to be with something if you are that something).

2. The word "was" is the Greek en and expresses continuous action in the past. In other words, the Word has always existed and was already in existence "in the beginning".

3. The biggest point of contention: "was God". Word has the article and God does not, which means the Word is the subject; John is making a statement about who the Word is.
a. if both had the article, "the Word was God" and "God was the Word" would be the same thing.
b. if neither had the article, it would equate all of God with all of the Word; "God" and "Word" would be interchangeable.
c. it cannot be "a god" since that is polytheism, which goes against both Judaism and Christianity.

4. "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."
a. the obvious conclusion here is that Christ could not have been made, otherwise this verse is false.
b. "came into being" uses the Greek egeneto, which denotes a point of origin, an action in time. Contrast that with point 2.

5. "the Word became flesh"--again, egeneto. The Word entered into space-time history, taking the form a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

6. "begotten"--not begetting, but "unique" or "one of a kind".

(Most of the above is from The Forgotten Trinity by James R White).

This is entirely consistent with Phil. 2. Jesus, as the Word, pre-existed eternally with the Father.

Now for Col 1:15-17, with which we again find strong agreement with the above passages.

You're substituting *God* for *the Word*; reading but not understanding. To know the Word, you have to bear in mind what a word is. What is a word? A word is a tool. And how do we get words? Where do they come from? How are words used? What are words used for? Words come from us. We create words. We speak words.

Words are created! And words have meaning. Words carry information - wisdom, knowledge, and understanding - light. All of these things, and anything else you can think of, have to be in your mind before you can understand.

How many words does God have in him? Who is the most important word? The answer is his name. *The LORD* is the most important word.

You can't substitute *God* for *the Word*. The statement would have no meaning. Words are created. God is uncreated. The Word came from the One who created the Word.

The Word was in the form of God. Form implies shape/likeness. It also implies sight. So it was possible for Adam and Eve to see the form of God in the garden. We know he was the first act of God. Pr. 8:22 - 'The LORD created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.' Who else was created in the beginning, before the beginning of the earth? Proverbs 8 tells us he was created before the earth. And Jesus said, 'glorify me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made.' John 17:5 Even Jesus says he was with God before the world was made.

We also know that the Word didn't have life in himself - not as God has life in himself - until it was granted him to have life in himself. We get this from what Jesus said - 'For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.' John 5:26

God made the light in the beginning. That's who the Word was. He was *the LORD* - the name by whom we know God. He was God because he was the name. It was through him that God created everything - through *the LORD*. You could say the LORD (meaning God)made everything through the LORD (his namesake). God does everything for his name's sake.

______________________________________________________________________________________



no, words are a thought expressed. words are not created or at least not God's word. the word is born out from the origial thought or originator-God

Jesus did not eternally co-exist with the Father. the only difference between God and His Son is that Son's have beginnings. God Himself gave birth to His Son b4 the foundation of the world and they together, jointly created all things.

 

[Imagican]

Why do you continue to ignore Phil 2, Imagican??? No one will ever find a statement that refutes what Christ said because no one is trying to refute what he said.

Free,

you are ignoring above verses Imagican quoted.

I have not ignored one verse that Imagican has posted. As I have said many times already and will continue to say, the the doctrine of the Trinity not only takes all of Imagican's verses into account, it takes all into account that the Scriptures reveal about God. Imagican's position must avoid certain passages, as I have pointed out.

It is apparent that several of you really do not understand the doctrine of the Trinity and that is
perhaps why you are so against it.

Free,

I am NOT picking on ANYONE. But please allow me to offer that YOU ARE RIGHT, I DON'T understand 'trinity' or even the PURPOSE behind it so far as truth is concerned.

I have avoided NOTHING. While my answers may NOT conform to what YOU have come to believe scripture offers, that does NOT show that I have AVOIDED ANYTHING. If you have evidence of my avoidance of a SINGLE SCRIPTURE, please point it out so that I can offer what ''I'' understand it to MEAN.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Not only is Jesus "The Word" equal to God, He IS God. Why is it so difficult for people who claim to be Christians to wrap their minds around the fact that God is a Triune God, the Father, Son (the Word), and the Holy Spirit, THREE in ONE? "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost (or Holy Spirit), and these three are one." 1 John 5:7

These three are ONE. God is so awesome and majestic that He needs Three manifestations of Himself in order to make Himself known. The Three, Father, Son (Or Word), and the Holy Ghost (or Spirit) are ONE and the SAME! ONE God, ONE LORD in THREE manifestations. Why is that so hard to believe or accept?

You offered the answer in your question. It's a matter of following in FAITH, not what's IN YOUR MIND. I have NO faith in 'man-made' concepts when it comes to religion.

Since YOU believe that it is SO evident, show us where the apostles TAUGHT 'trinity'. Show us where CHRIST taught 'trinity'. Show us where God revealed that HIs Son is actually HIM.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[kingdavid]

You offered the answer in your question. It's a matter of following in FAITH, not what's IN YOUR MIND. I have NO faith in 'man-made' concepts when it comes to religion.

Since YOU believe that it is SO evident, show us where the apostles TAUGHT 'trinity'. Show us where CHRIST taught 'trinity'. Show us where God revealed that HIs Son is actually HIM.

Blessings,

MEC[/quote]


they didn't teach trinity. many just fail to see the true relationship that God and christ shared. they were not seperate from each other(as a couple groups claim). jesus said, believe me that I am in my Father and the Father in me. God dwelled in christ in the Flesh, they shared the same body. it was both of them in the self-same person but you didn't see 2, you only saw one.

the relationship is true in the vice vercy in the Spirit. Chist dwelled in his Father, that heavenly body-the word. it was the both of them in the self-same person. that is why the scripture says he who has the Father hath the Son also. How can you not have the Son when you have the Father, for the Son dwells in the Father in the form of the Spirit. as the 2 book of john wrote, he who hath the doctrine of christ hath BOTH(NO TRINITY OR ONNESS DOCTRINE HERE) the Father and the Son



that is the true oneness that God and christ shared as jesus prayed to the Father to let us be one as you and I are One. they were one but not one like your finger. he was a dual person or God and christ were yoked together. they were not seperate from each other

 

[shad]

You offered the answer in your question. It's a matter of following in FAITH, not what's IN YOUR MIND. I have NO faith in 'man-made' concepts when it comes to religion.

Since YOU believe that it is SO evident, show us where the apostles TAUGHT 'trinity'. Show us where CHRIST taught 'trinity'. Show us where God revealed that HIs Son is actually HIM.

Blessings,

MEC

they didn't teach trinity. many just fail to see the true relationship that God and christ shared. they were not seperate from each other(as a couple groups claim). jesus said, believe me that I am in my Father and the Father in me. God dwelled in christ in the Flesh, they shared the same body. it was both of them in the self-same person but you didn't see 2, you only saw one.

the relationship is true in the vice vercy in the Spirit. Chist dwelled in his Father, that heavenly body-the word. it was the both of them in the self-same person. that is why the scripture says he who has the Father hath the Son also. How can you not have the Son when you have the Father, for the Son dwells in the Father in the form of the Spirit. as the 2 book of john wrote, he who hath the doctrine of christ hath BOTH(NO TRINITY OR ONNESS DOCTRINE HERE) the Father and the Son

There is not even single verse saying that "God the Father, God the son and God the Holy Spirit make one God". This is a man-made(RCC made) doctrine clearly.

.

 

[Imagican]

You offered the answer in your question. It's a matter of following in FAITH, not what's IN YOUR MIND. I have NO faith in 'man-made' concepts when it comes to religion.

Since YOU believe that it is SO evident, show us where the apostles TAUGHT 'trinity'. Show us where CHRIST taught 'trinity'. Show us where God revealed that HIs Son is actually HIM.

Blessings,

MEC

they didn't teach trinity. many just fail to see the true relationship that God and christ shared. they were not seperate from each other(as a couple groups claim). jesus said, believe me that I am in my Father and the Father in me. God dwelled in christ in the Flesh, they shared the same body. it was both of them in the self-same person but you didn't see 2, you only saw one.

the relationship is true in the vice vercy in the Spirit. Chist dwelled in his Father, that heavenly body-the word. it was the both of them in the self-same person. that is why the scripture says he who has the Father hath the Son also. How can you not have the Son when you have the Father, for the Son dwells in the Father in the form of the Spirit. as the 2 book of john wrote, he who hath the doctrine of christ hath BOTH(NO TRINITY OR ONNESS DOCTRINE HERE) the Father and the Son



that is the true oneness that God and christ shared as jesus prayed to the Father to let us be one as you and I are One. they were one but not one like your finger. he was a dual person or God and christ were yoked together. they were not seperate from each other[/quote]

Thanks for your offering dave. I believe that you are not off the mark. While what you say is truth, there WAS a moment that God and Christ WERE separate. Upon the cross, when Christ was required to suffer the sins of this world, for a 'time', He WAS alone for the first time in His existence. He stated it openly, "My Father, why hath thou forsaken me". And imagine what THAT must have been like.

If I could convince myself that 'trinity' wasn't potentially harmful, I would say that is doesn't matter what one believes concerning the relationship between God and His Son. But I can't help but continue to be reminded that if we create a 'god of our own', then it is not a 'true god' and there is no forgiveness from 'gods' of our own creation. Try as I may, I am always led back to this troubling idea.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Question:

Can that which is GIVEN be TAKEN BACK?

An answer of this question is all it takes to answer the topic of this thread.

If God could 'take back' that which He had GIVEN the Son, then the Son if OBVIOUSLY not 'equal to' God.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[lovely]

The question was, "Is Jesus equal to His Father?" The answer is that Jesus, being in the His very nature God, did not seek equality, but rather came in the flesh to be a Servant. This speaks to Christ's willingness to submit to the Father's plan for the sake of God's love for us. I don't understand the constant campaign to make Christ less.

 

[kingdavid]

You offered the answer in your question. It's a matter of following in FAITH, not what's IN YOUR MIND. I have NO faith in 'man-made' concepts when it comes to religion.

Since YOU believe that it is SO evident, show us where the apostles TAUGHT 'trinity'. Show us where CHRIST taught 'trinity'. Show us where God revealed that HIs Son is actually HIM.

Blessings,

MEC

they didn't teach trinity. many just fail to see the true relationship that God and christ shared. they were not seperate from each other(as a couple groups claim). jesus said, believe me that I am in my Father and the Father in me. God dwelled in christ in the Flesh, they shared the same body. it was both of them in the self-same person but you didn't see 2, you only saw one.

the relationship is true in the vice vercy in the Spirit. Chist dwelled in his Father, that heavenly body-the word. it was the both of them in the self-same person. that is why the scripture says he who has the Father hath the Son also. How can you not have the Son when you have the Father, for the Son dwells in the Father in the form of the Spirit. as the 2 book of john wrote, he who hath the doctrine of christ hath BOTH(NO TRINITY OR ONNESS DOCTRINE HERE) the Father and the Son

There is not even single verse saying that "God the Father, God the son and God the Holy Spirit make one God". This is a man-made(RCC made) doctrine clearly.

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that is true!!!