Is Jesus really God ?

[Prince]

Hello Prince,

I will say that you have and you haven't. Technically, no one in the NT is YHWH since, as far as I know, YHWH is never used. Even where the NT quotes the OT in instances where YHWH is used, it is translated as kurios, or "Lord," which has a few meanings. In that sense, I would agree that Jesus is referred to as YHWH and that you have provided such an example.

Fair enough - I will not go deep into the Greek at this moment, however what is very interesting is that Thomas doubted, and then came to a great understanding.

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Lord

2962. kurios koo'-ree-os from kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, i.e. (as noun) controller; by implication, Master (as a respectful title):-- God, Lord, master, Sir.

God

2316. theos theh'-os of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with 3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very:--X exceeding, God, god(-ly, -ward).

I touched on this earlier, it is clear from the manuscripts that Thomas believed that Jesus was not only Lord, but also the Almighty God.

And the script seems to back this because of the definite article being used in both cases of "Lord" and "God"

3588. ho ho, including the feminine he hay, and the neuter to to in all their inflections; the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom):--the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.

Thomas believed that Jesus is God, it would be hard to disprove this, since Thomas knew Jesus and seemed to have some form of enlightenment after touching the Christ.....

 

[Prince]

I think most everyone here would agree with that. Jesus is not the Father, He is God the Son.

I see it a little different but I will give my 2cents a little later.

 

[Alabaster]

I see it a little different but I will give my 2cents a little later.

This is a simple diagram demonstrating what I meant:

 

[Prince]

This is a simple diagram demonstrating what I meant:

Cool Diagram -

Reminds me of

1 John 5:7 King James Bible
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

 

[Alabaster]

Cool Diagram -

Reminds me of

1 John 5:7 King James Bible
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Amen!

 

[MarkT]

Of course he doesn't. However, God stating that he is not a man does not preclude him from taking on human flesh.

I think you are missing the basic truth. God transcends his creation. He is not man. He can not be man. God is spirit, as Jesus said. He can not be both man and spirit. That would be a contradiction. No one has ever seen God. God is invisible, as Paul said. Jesus was the light of God. Not God himself. If the LORD was the light of God, you could correctly say he was God, only not God himself.

As I have stated and will state again, "LORD" = "YHWH;" they are interchangeable. Therefore, if you want to claim that Jesus is LORD, to which I agree, it follows that Jesus is YHWH, that he is very much true God. There is absolutely no other way the claim that Jesus is LORD could be understood. As I had stated previously, the claim that Jesus is LORD, is very trinitarian (and Oneness/modalist, but we won't go there).

I really do not think that his statement precludes him from being God but I will look into Jesus's statement in John 17:3 further. It is worth noting, however, that he equates eternal life not only to knowing God but to knowing himself.


These verses are speaking of the humanity of Christ, which trinitarians rightly acknowledge. What they do not mean is that Jesus was literally a man prior to his coming to earth. As the God-man he is truly God and truly man.


I understand was proceeded means, I wanted clarification from you since you seem to be saying he was literally a man prior to his coming to earth, which is error.


That's what I'm trying to figure out. What do you mean by "born in the likeness of the Father?" Are you referring to his birth to Mary and Joseph?


Again, begging the question. I will yet again state that LORD=YHWH, the proper name of the one God of the OT. To say that Jesus is LORD is to say that Jesus is YHWH, the God of the OT.


But you’re right. The O.T. isn’t easy to read. But as long as you remember God is speaking to the LORD and the LORD is speaking to man. It’s not always that simple. The LORD is God’s name. So you can refer to God as the LORD as well - as long as you don’t confuse his name and his being. Most of the time, when they are talking about God, they say the LORD is this or that. And even the LORD has a lot to say about God. But when the God says something, it is by and through his name - the LORD.


I will state it again: LORD=YHWH=true God. There is absolutely no getting around that fact.

Jesus revealed to us that the relationship between himself and God was that God was his Father. He also said God is our Father. The Father allowed him to have life in himself. It follows that he also allowed us to have life in ourselves as well, if we are of the light as well.

If Jesus was the LORD of the O.T., then it follows that everything Jesus said about himself would be true of the LORD of the O.T. as well. If Jesus said he was the light so it would be true of the LORD as well. The LORD was the light. Jesus said he came from God. So the LORD came from God. Jesus said seeing him was seeing the Father. So it was true of the LORD as well. Seeing the LORD was seeing the Father. And it explains what Abraham saw. Abraham saw his 'day', as Jesus said. The light was called the Day.

If Jesus was the LORD, then when he was born, or begotten, he came out of a woman. So the LORD was granted life in himself. He came from God and he came from man. You could say he came out of God as light and he came out of man as man. So he was the Son of man and the Son of God. If Jesus was the light of the world, he was also the light of God.

I'm not saying Jesus isn't God. He was the Son, the heir. He was raised to the throne of God, which makes him God. All I'm saying is he was not God until God raised him up.

 

[cleanfreak]

I think you are missing the basic truth. God transcends his creation. He is not man. He can not be man. God is spirit, as Jesus said. He can not be both man and spirit. That would be a contradiction. No one has ever seen God. God is invisible, as Paul said. Jesus was the light of God. Not God himself. If the LORD was the light of God, you could correctly say he was God, only not God himself.



Jesus revealed to us that the relationship between himself and God was that God was his Father. He also said God is our Father. The Father allowed him to have life in himself. It follows that he also allowed us to have life in ourselves as well, if we are of the light as well.

If Jesus was the LORD of the O.T., then it follows that everything Jesus said about himself would be true of the LORD of the O.T. as well. If Jesus said he was the light so it would be true of the LORD as well. The LORD was the light. Jesus said he came from God. So the LORD came from God. Jesus said seeing him was seeing the Father. So it was true of the LORD as well. Seeing the LORD was seeing the Father. And it explains what Abraham saw. Abraham saw his 'day', as Jesus said. The light was called the Day.

If Jesus was the LORD, then when he was born, or begotten, he came out of a woman. So the LORD was granted life in himself. He came from God and he came from man. You could say he came out of God as light and he came out of man as man. So he was the Son of man and the Son of God. If Jesus was the light of the world, he was also the light of God.

great insight. I have never thought of it this way before.

 

[mcgyver]

I think you are missing the basic truth. God transcends his creation. He is not man. He can not be man. God is spirit, as Jesus said. He can not be both man and spirit. That would be a contradiction. No one has ever seen God. God is invisible, as Paul said. Jesus was the light of God. Not God himself. If the LORD was the light of God, you could correctly say he was God, only not God himself.

This is the very same belief that the gnostics held...that because God is spirit, He could not be a man...and this from the influence of stoic philosophy.

However...seems that they missed something important...appearances of God in the flesh in the Old Testament (theophany).

Read Genesis 18 and a couple of things will jump off of the pages. First of all, without a doubt it is God who appears to Abraham in Mamre. Not as a vision, not speaking out of a burning bush...but in the form of a man who ate and drank with Abraham.

God appeared to Joshua as the commander of the Lord's army...Joshua fell down on his face and worshiped, and this "man" then tells Joshua to take the shoes off his feet, for the place that he stands is Holy (sound familiar?)

God has in fact put on flesh (The Jews referred to this as "THE Angel of the Lord") several times in the OT, so to say that God can not be a man and spirit is ridiculous. Are you not a man? Yet do you not also have a living spirit within you?

To say that Jesus became God after He was raised is a logical contradiction...how does one "become" God? Either one is, or one is not...

Is it not written:

“You shall have no other gods before Me." (Ex 20:3)

(for you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God) (Ex 34:14)

To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD Himself is God; there is none other besides Him. (Deut 4:35)

Therefore know this day, and consider it in your heart, that the LORD Himself is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other. (Deut 4:39)

that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God; there is no other. (1 Kings 8:60)

Jesus Christ did not "become" God, He has always been God....and there is no contradiction found within the hypostatic union.

Jesus revealed to us that the relationship between himself and God was that God was his Father. He also said God is our Father. The Father allowed him to have life in himself. It follows that he also allowed us to have life in ourselves as well, if we are of the light as well.

There is quite a difference in positional relationship and equality of essence.

For example, if you have a son, positionally speaking he will always be subordinate to you....yet the essence of both you and your son is humanity. In this you are equal.

Jesus in His incarnation as the son, became subordinate to the Father in position; yet His essence is divine and therefore in a position of equality with God.

If Jesus was the LORD of the O.T., then it follows that everything Jesus said about himself would be true of the LORD of the O.T. as well. If Jesus said he was the light so it would be true of the LORD as well. The LORD was the light. Jesus said he came from God. So the LORD came from God. Jesus said seeing him was seeing the Father. So it was true of the LORD as well. Seeing the LORD was seeing the Father. And it explains what Abraham saw. Abraham saw his 'day', as Jesus said. The light was called the Day.

If Jesus was the LORD, then when he was born, or begotten, he came out of a woman. So the LORD was granted life in himself. He came from God and he came from man. You could say he came out of God as light and he came out of man as man. So he was the Son of man and the Son of God. If Jesus was the light of the world, he was also the light of God.

This is more new-age and mystical than biblical...

I'm not saying Jesus isn't God. He was the Son, the heir. He was raised to the throne of God, which makes him God. All I'm saying is he was not God until God raised him up.

See Above...doesn't work that way...

 

[cleanfreak]

This is the very same belief that the gnostics held...that because God is spirit, He could not be a man...and this from the influence of stoic philosophy.

However...seems that they missed something important...appearances of God in the flesh in the Old Testament (theophany).

Read Genesis 18 and a couple of things will jump off of the pages. First of all, without a doubt it is God who appears to Abraham in Mamre. Not as a vision, not speaking out of a burning bush...but in the form of a man who ate and drank with Abraham.

God appeared to Joshua as the commander of the Lord's army...Joshua fell down on his face and worshiped, and this "man" then tells Joshua to take the shoes off his feet, for the place that he stands is Holy (sound familiar?)

God has in fact put on flesh (The Jews referred to this as "THE Angel of the Lord") several times in the OT, so to say that God can not be a man and spirit is ridiculous. Are you not a man? Yet do you not also have a living spirit within you?

To say that Jesus became God after He was raised is a logical contradiction...how does one "become" God? Either one is, or one is not...

Is it not written:

“You shall have no other gods before Me." (Ex 20:3)

(for you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God) (Ex 34:14)

To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD Himself is God; there is none other besides Him. (Deut 4:35)

Therefore know this day, and consider it in your heart, that the LORD Himself is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other. (Deut 4:39)

that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God; there is no other. (1 Kings 8:60)

Jesus Christ did not "become" God, He has always been God....and there is no contradiction found within the hypostatic union.

There is quite a difference in positional relationship and equality of essence.

For example, if you have a son, positionally speaking he will always be subordinate to you....yet the essence of both you and your son is humanity. In this you are equal.

Jesus in His incarnation as the son, became subordinate to the Father in position; yet His essence is divine and therefore in a position of equality with God.

This is more new-age and mystical than biblical...

See Above...doesn't work that way...

Hi mcgyver

So are you saying they are the same being/person when in heaven?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Jesus is God by His words:

rev 22:12

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Which is the fulfillment of this OT Prophecy Isa 40:

10 Behold, the Lord [adonay] GOD [Jehovah] will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

also isa 62:

11 Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

 

[Drew]

I think you are missing the basic truth. God transcends his creation. He is not man. He can not be man. God is spirit, as Jesus said. He can not be both man and spirit. That would be a contradiction.

I do not think this position can work. I politely suggest you are implicitly appealing to a "God cannot be both something non-physical and also be a physical man".

This is a very appealing argument to those in the post-enlightenment west who have been raised on Greek dualism - the idea that there is a "physical" world and there is an "non-physical" spiritual world.

Well, look at how Paul uses the concept of "spirit" in relation to the concept of a "body" here in 1 Corinthians 15:

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

No doubt, many will deny the "physicality" of this spiritual body. But the overall argument Paul is making will not sustain this - he clearly believes in a physical resurrection body and he describes it as "spiritual".

So there is no contradiction with the concepts of "spiritual" and "physical" being integrated together.

 

[mcgyver]

Hi mcgyver

So are you saying they are the same being/person when in heaven?

That is a good question, and one that is not really easy to answer...we know for example that Jesus is seated at the right hand of God, making intercession for us.

From this we could deduce that even in heaven there are two distinct persons...God (as Father) and Jesus (as son). We might go as far as to say that Jesus is still in a subordinate position to the Father.

But then again we see God declaring in Rev. 21:6-7 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
However, Jesus also claims the title of "Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End" at least 4 times in the same book.

Obviously there is an equality expressed between God and Jesus.

Again we see this in the description of the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21 and 22.

But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. (Rev 21:22-23 emphasis mine)

And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him (Rev 22:3 emphasis mine)

So then, I think the answer lies in the "role" Christ currently fills...as our Great High Priest and as our intercessor He (arguably) is still subordinate to the Father in role, but He fills that role from a position of equality with God.

'Bout best I can do right now...

 

[cleanfreak]

That is a good question, and one that is not really easy to answer...we know for example that Jesus is seated at the right hand of God, making intercession for us.

From this we could deduce that even in heaven there are two distinct persons...God (as Father) and Jesus (as son). We might go as far as to say that Jesus is still in a subordinate position to the Father.

But then again we see God declaring in Rev. 21:6-7 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
However, Jesus also claims the title of "Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End" at least 4 times in the same book.

Obviously there is an equality expressed between God and Jesus.

Again we see this in the description of the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21 and 22.

But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. (Rev 21:22-23 emphasis mine)

And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him (Rev 22:3 emphasis mine)

So then, I think the answer lies in the "role" Christ currently fills...as our Great High Priest and as our intercessor He (arguably) is still subordinate to the Father in role, but He fills that role from a position of equality with God.

'Bout best I can do right now...

thanks for your reply.

I believe the answer is found in Revelation 5:1-7. The key verse is verse 7. Jesus clearly is the one taking the book out of the Fathers hand.

1And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

 

[mcgyver]

thanks for your reply.

I believe the answer is found in Revelation 5:1-7. The key verse is verse 7. Jesus clearly is the one taking the book out of the Fathers hand.

1And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

Very true..and that's why we have a difficult time wrapping our minds around the entire concept! :D

But yet even here...we see Christ in His role as kinsman redeemer for mankind...subordinate in role, but as I pointed out (I hope) equal in essence.

 

[Elijah674]

That is a good question, and one that is not really easy to answer...we know for example that Jesus is seated at the right hand of God, making intercession for us.

From this we could deduce that even in heaven there are two distinct persons...God (as Father) and Jesus (as son). We might go as far as to say that Jesus is still in a subordinate position to the Father.

But then again we see God declaring in Rev. 21:6-7 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
However, Jesus also claims the title of "Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End" at least 4 times in the same book.

Obviously there is an equality expressed between God and Jesus.

Again we see this in the description of the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21 and 22.

But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. (Rev 21:22-23 emphasis mine)

And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him (Rev 22:3 emphasis mine)

So then, I think the answer lies in the "role" Christ currently fills...as our Great High Priest and as our intercessor He (arguably) is still subordinate to the Father in role, but He fills that role from a position of equality with God.

'Bout best I can do right now...

Are you talking about after Christ became the Son, or before? And even Christ/God/Man has Immortality! Yet, you post that He is 'subordinate' to the Father?? What is you definition of that word?? and 'fills the role from a [position of equality with God]' We sure have problems with the english language, huh? me anyhow!:wink3

And is that your belief on the Eternal Rev. 14:6 DOCTRINE OF CHRIST???
2 John 3:9-11 (at present as you say!)

--Elijah

 

[mcgyver]

Are you talking about after Christ became the Son, or before? And even Christ/God/Man has Immortality! Yet, you post that He is 'subordinate' to the Father?? What is you definition of that word?? and 'fills the role from a [position of equality with God]' We sure have problems with the english language, huh? me anyhow!:wink3

Me too!!!!

I hold to the Trinitarian position, that there is one true and living God who, (for His own good purpose and His own good pleasure) has chosen to reveal (or present) Himself in the persons of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each with a different ministry, working harmoniously together to complete God's redemptive plan for mankind, yet in being of one essence and indivisibly one God.

Whewww...that's a mouthful!

As far as positional or subordinate...I might use the illustration of a judge and an attorney in a courtroom. Obviously, the attorney is subordinate to the judge in his role as an attorney....but both judge and attorney are members of the Bar, have attended law school, are officers of the court, both are human beings, etc.

Even this is a pale shadow of Jesus (God) and the Father (God).

And is that your belief on the Eternal Rev. 14:6 DOCTRINE OF CHRIST???
2 John 3:9-11 (at present as you say!)

--Elijah

Only one way to get to God....and that's through Jesus Christ!

 

[Free]

I think you are missing the basic truth. God transcends his creation. He is not man. He can not be man. God is spirit, as Jesus said. He can not be both man and spirit. That would be a contradiction. No one has ever seen God. God is invisible, as Paul said. Jesus was the light of God. Not God himself. If the LORD was the light of God, you could correctly say he was God, only not God himself.

Mcgyer and Drew have adequately shown the problems with this argument, so I will not address it.

Jesus revealed to us that the relationship between himself and God was that God was his Father. He also said God is our Father. The Father allowed him to have life in himself. It follows that he also allowed us to have life in ourselves as well, if we are of the light as well.

If Jesus was the LORD of the O.T., then it follows that everything Jesus said about himself would be true of the LORD of the O.T. as well. If Jesus said he was the light so it would be true of the LORD as well. The LORD was the light. Jesus said he came from God. So the LORD came from God. Jesus said seeing him was seeing the Father. So it was true of the LORD as well. Seeing the LORD was seeing the Father. And it explains what Abraham saw. Abraham saw his 'day', as Jesus said. The light was called the Day.

If Jesus was the LORD, then when he was born, or begotten, he came out of a woman. So the LORD was granted life in himself. He came from God and he came from man. You could say he came out of God as light and he came out of man as man. So he was the Son of man and the Son of God. If Jesus was the light of the world, he was also the light of God.

I'm not sure why you can't understand that if Jesus is LORD, as the OT uses LORD, then this makes him YHWH, the one and only God of the OT, there is no other option. There is no LORD and Father, no LORD and God. This is utterly foreign to both Judaism and Christianity.

As I also stated previously, the only proper understanding of Jesus as LORD is through the doctrine of the Trinity. The only other position would be polytheism, which the Bible clearly speaks against.

I'm not saying Jesus isn't God. He was the Son, the heir. He was raised to the throne of God, which makes him God. All I'm saying is he was not God until God raised him up.

No created being can, by definition, ever be God or attain a position equal to God.

 

[cleanfreak]

Mcgyer and Drew have adequately shown the problems with this argument, so I will not address it.


I'm not sure why you can't understand that if Jesus is LORD, as the OT uses LORD, then this makes him YHWH, the one and only God of the OT, there is no other option. There is no LORD and Father, no LORD and God. This is utterly foreign to both Judaism and Christianity.

As I also stated previously, the only proper understanding of Jesus as LORD is through the doctrine of the Trinity. The only other position would be polytheism, which the Bible clearly speaks against.


No created being can, by definition, ever be God or attain a position equal to God.

Hey Free

Please clarify for me as YHWH is the Name of God the Father, not the name of Yeshua. One being called Lord, Master, or God has nothing to do with their actual name. Please try not to misinterpret what I am trying to say here....it is hard to put down in words.

Also,
are you saying they are the same person/being in heaven?

 

[Free]

Hey Free

Please clarify for me as YHWH is the Name of God the Father, not the name of Yeshua. One being called Lord, Master, or God has nothing to do with their actual name. Please try not to misinterpret what I am trying to say here....it is hard to put down in words.

Be careful as this is begging the question. You have here presumed that YHWH is the name of God the Father, when the OT only uses it of the being known as God.

Also,
are you saying they are the same person/being in heaven?

Same being, God, yes; same person, no. The Bible clearly differentiates between the Father and the Son as separate persons but states that they are both God. This is the issue that the doctrine of the Trinity is addressing.

 

[cleanfreak]

Be careful as this is begging the question. You have here presumed that YHWH is the name of God the Father, when the OT only uses it of the being known as God.


Same being, God, yes; same person, no. The Bible clearly differentiates between the Father and the Son as separate persons but states that they are both God. This is the issue that the doctrine of the Trinity is addressing.

thanks you for your reply.

Really searching here....

If YHWH is also the name of God (Jesus in this instance), why is Yeshua used when he is on earth? Why not use Yahweh?