Is Jesus really God ?

[Who Says]

Re: I AM they exceeding and great reward...

Abraham was a picture of God to whom the promises actually belong. The one those promises must be received from.

Jesus corresponds to Isaac who received the promises through inheritance.

Hebrews 1:4 ¶Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

This must be understood as a view with respects to comparison to any human appointed messengers of God. Even as the "fellows" spoken of later are the Jewish Kings, Jesus having been given the thrown of David.

 

[Drew]

]There is an earthly hope and a heavenly hope. They are the same insofar as destination is concerned but different insofar as appointment of headship responsibilities are concerned.

The heavenly hope is heavenly in that it is about governmental rule over this earth. Hebrews 3:1; Matthew 25:34[/quote]
Ok, I think I am with you on this.

The earthly hope is earthly in that it is about being a citizen under that kingdom government upon this earth. Matthew 5:5[/B]

Well, I agree that the gospel deals with the in-breaking of "heavenly" principles in respect to how the earth is governed. So I think I am still with you.

They are both inheritances but the heavenly corresponds to the promises given to Isarel whereas the earthly corresponds to the promise that in the seed of Abraham all the nations of this earth would find blessing. Genesis 17:6,16; 18:18;22:18[/B]

Here we disagree. There is no sense that Israel will "rule the earth" as you seem to be suggesting that Israel is the recipient of the "heavenly hope about governmental rule on the earth". It might have seemed that way to a first-century Jew, but things did not turn out that way. The story had a different ending - "governmental rule of the earth" was given to Jesus, not Israel. And I suggest the actual resolution of the "earthly" hope was that Israel blessed the nations precisely because Israel served in the role of concentrating the world's sin (in the nation of Israel) so that it could then be dealt with on the cross. Now I know that statement seems to come out of left-field, but I am not sure how any of your statement bear on the matter of Jesus' divinity. Perhaps you can explain some more.

So please, explain exactly how this "heavenly hope" vs "earthly hope" model works against the Trinitarian position.

 

[Free]

The more one sees the correct picture the more of the picture they become able to see.


The more one sees incorrectly the more blind they become.


And this is tied up with how we see the relationship of Christ to the Father. It is true that the Trinitarian doctrine will keep men blind.


But that will only prevent them from being a part of the heavenly ruling hope lest they act wickedly and persue hate because of it. Sadly though that is the common direction it pushes men. And the problem with that hate is that it can take many forms, even to the unwitting acceptance of the mark of the beast and assisting the beast to defy Christ's kingdom.

Here you go again, stating that those who believe the Trinity are blind and that it will push such persons to "the unwitting acceptance of the mark of the beast and assisting the beast to defy Christ's kingdom."

You previously stated in this thread: "It is you that insist on making it a fundamental doctrine. It is men that have insisted on making it fundamental."

So how does your statement above not insist on making this doctrine fundamental? Clearly if the doctrine of the Trinity will push believers in it to assist the beast to defy Christ's kingdom, then it must be a fundamental doctrine.

You also stated: "So get off this wicked hating and lying against others. You are wrong that this has anything to do with whether one is an antichrist. And you are wicked in making such hateful claims. And God is going to punish both sides of this argument for using his word to hate each other and making him look bad in the world."
Again, I must point out the clear contradiction with what you just posted. Doesn't your recent statement clearly support the notion that this does, in fact, have something to do with those who are antiChrist? I don't suppose you see yourself as wicked for making such a statement or see your statement as being hateful, do you?

For someone who is quick to cry foul and say that there is much hate in these discussions, you sure are quick to make very strong (and incorrect) judgements against others. And this done despite your continued failure and unwillingness to directly address arguments for the Trinity. Your position is on very shaky ground.

 

[Who Says]

]Here we disagree. There is no sense that Israel will "rule the earth" as you seem to be suggesting that Israel is the recipient of the "heavenly hope about governmental rule on the earth". It might have seemed that way to a first-century Jew, but things did not turn out that way. The story had a different ending - "governmental rule of the earth" was given to Jesus, not Israel. And I suggest the actual resolution of the "earthly" hope was that Israel blessed the nations precisely because Israel served in the role of concentrating the world's sin (in the nation of Israel) so that it could then be dealt with on the cross. Now I know that statement seems to come out of left-field, but I am not sure how any of your statement bear on the matter of Jesus' divinity. Perhaps you can explain some more.

So please, explain exactly how this "heavenly hope" vs "earthly hope" model works against the Trinitarian position.

You are right. That is not what i am saying either. That is just one more of the many places men become confused.

It is not about the fleshly Israel and that is why it was passed by promise after Isaac. Which is why Paul uses the birth of Jacob and Esau as the example rather than Isaac. The Israel of God is not by fleshly birth as are the sons of Jacob. Yet Jacob was chosen as Israel and still Paul could say that not all who were of Israel were really Israel. That is because being a son of Jacob did not automatically qualify one as a sharer in Jacob's blessing as Israel. And thus the entire deal acts as a prototype of spiritual Israel which is not dependent upon the flesh but upon the choosing of God to be sharers in the promises Inherited by Isaac from Abraham and chosen as to whom they would be given ever after that.

Now you could argue that God chose Isaac also. But Abraham was to whom the promises were given to belong. Isaac had to inherit the promises from Abraham though he was chosen. All who were chosen had to also inherit but still this is just the prototype. Christ was chosen of God. That is what Christ means. But Christ corresponds to Isaac. And any who God chooses because of their faith have already came through Jesus from the beginning of time. We do not have to come through him physically a second time as we came through him, as all living creatures have, a first time. Therefore we qualify to also inherit with him having come through him if God chooses us to be sharers in the promises for kingdom rulership with him.

So now you should be beginning to understand that there is a very good reason the scriptures mention all the little details about Christ it does mention. And the purpose is not to show that Christ is God, but to establish inheritance rights for us and to lay out the picture for us of what God is doing.

 

[Drew]

It is not about the fleshly Israel and that is why it was passed by promise after Isaac. Which is why Paul uses the birth of Jacob and Esau as the example rather than Isaac. The Israel of God is not by fleshly birth as are the sons of Jacob. Yet Jacob was chosen as Israel and still Paul could say that not all who were of Israel were really Israel. That is because being a son of Jacob did not automatically qualify one as a sharer in Jacob's blessing as Israel. And thus the entire deal acts as a prototype of spiritual Israel which is not dependent upon the flesh but upon the choosing of God to be sharers in th promises Inherited by Isaac from Abraham and chosen as to whom they would be given ever after that.

I believe I heartily agree with this - and such agreement should perhaps not surprise you since we agreed about this issue in the Romans 9 thread.

Now you could argue that God chose Isaac also. But Abraham was to whom the promises were given to belong. Isaac had to inherit the promises from Abraham though he was chosen. All who were chosen had to also inherit but still this is just the prototype. Christ was chosen of God. That is what Christ means. But Christ corresponds to Isaac. And any who God chooses because of their faith have already came through Jesus from the beginning of time. We do not have to come through him physically a second time as we came through him, as all living creatures have, a first time. Therefore we qualify to also inherit with hin having come through him if God chooses us to be sharers in the promises for kingdom rulership with him.

I have some trouble following this, but you seem to be saying that Christ was no different from Isaac, at least in some sense. I suspect I have not grasped your point. But I will disagree on the meaning of "Christ" - I believe this term really represents the concept of "king".

In any event, I suggest that most readers will be stumped as to how this is an argument that Jesus is not divine. Even if Jesus is, in some sense, "chosen" by God - and I suggest Jesus is indeed chosen in a sense - it does not follow that He (Jesus) cannot be divine in virtue of having been chosen.

So now you should be beginning to understand that there is a very good reason the scriptures mention all the little details about Christ it does mention. And the purpose is not to show that Christ is God, but to establish inheritances rights for us and to lay out the picture for us of what God is doing.[/QUOTE]

 

[Eventide]

Re: I AM they exceeding and great reward...

Abraham was a picture of God to whom the promises actually belong. The one those promises must be received from.

Jesus corresponds to Isaac who received the promises through inheritance.

Isaac did inherit all things of His Father as did the Lord.. although another important point to grasp here is how Isaac is a picture of that miraculous birth within the believer.. ie, Christ in you.. ie, He is our exceeding and great reward.. that's of course if a person is truly born from above by God and has Christ in them.. for if any man has not the Spirit of Christ, then he is not His. And we too have an inheritance 'in Christ' which is beyond measure.

And the scriptures teach us that we were baptized into the body of Christ after we trusted in Christ, after hearing the gospel, and after we believed.. the Christian has the Father in them, Christ in them, and the Holy Spirit in them.. His divine nature.

So examine yourselves Paul says, don't you know that Christ is in you ?

 

[Who Says]

I believe I heartily agree with this - and such agreement should perhaps not surprise you since we agreed about this issue in the Romans 9 thread.


I have some trouble following this, but you seem to be saying that Christ was no different from Isaac, at least in some sense. I suspect I have not grasped your point. But I will disagree on the meaning of "Christ" - I believe this term really represents the concept of "king".

In any event, I suggest that most readers will be stumped as to how this is an argument that Jesus is not divine. Even if Jesus is, in some sense, "chosen" by God - and I suggest Jesus is indeed chosen in a sense - it does not follow that He (Jesus) cannot be divine in virtue of having been chosen.

So now you should be beginning to understand that there is a very good reason the scriptures mention all the little details about Christ it does mention. And the purpose is not to show that Christ is God, but to establish inheritances rights for us and to lay out the picture for us of what God is doing.

Well If you refuse to understand words to mean what they mean then no wonder you can't understand me.

Christ is just the Greek word for Messiah and they both mean, "The Annointed One of God". As to what that annointing is for (such as kingship and priesthood) that is beside the point. It is yet a choosing for a special purpose.

Luke 23:35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.

 

[Who Says]

Re: I AM they exceeding and great reward...

Isaac did inherit all things of His Father as did the Lord.. although another important point to grasp here is how Isaac is a picture of that miraculous birth within the believer.. ie, Christ in you.. ie, He is our exceeding and great reward.. that's of course if a person is truly born from above by God and has Christ in them.. for if any man has not the Spirit of Christ, then he is not His. And we too have an inheritance 'in Christ' which is beyond measure.

And the scriptures teach us that we were baptized into the body of Christ after we trusted in Christ, after hearing the gospel, and after we believed.. the Christian has the Father in them, Christ in them, and the Holy Spirit in them.. His divine nature.

So examine yourselves Paul says, don't you know that Christ is in you ?

That is exactly right. Amen to all you here said.

The only thing that I may or may not have mentioned yet cocerns that the ones this be true of at least for now are the brothers of Christ. That was also a part of why it was foreshadowed using one fleshly line instead of many. These brothers are by the very means you describe given an honorary direct sonship to God just as Jesus has. Though of course it can never be changed that in reality they were children to God through Christ, all things having from the beginning come through Christ and thus he being like the father Isaac was between Abraham and Israel.

 

[Eventide]

Re: I AM they exceeding and great reward...

That is exactly right. Amen to all you here said.

The only thing that I may or may not have mentioned yet cocerns that the ones this be true of at least for now are the brothers of Christ. That was also a part of why it was foreshadowed using one fleshly line instead of many. These brothers are by the very means you describe given an honorary direct sonship to God just as Jesus has. Though of course it can never be changed that in reality they were children to God through Christ, all things having from the beginning come through Christ and thus he being like the father Isaac was between Abraham and Israel.

So then, is Christ in you ?

Is the Father in you ?

Is the Holy Spirit in you ?

Then you're agreeing that Christ in you is His divine nature.. right ?

 

[Elijah674]

Re: I AM they exceeding and great reward...

Abraham was a picture of God to whom the promises actually belong. The one those promises must be received from.

Jesus corresponds to Isaac who received the promises through inheritance.

Hebrews 1:4 ¶Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

This must be understood as a view with respects to comparison to any human appointed messengers of God. Even as the "fellows" spoken of later are the Jewish Kings, Jesus having been given the thrown of David.

Of course! And that is prophecy on this side of Christ's 'inherited' consumation as man/God. That is the true Doctrine of Christ as Promised by the Godhead! 2 John 1:9-11, yet, known by Them in Eternities PLAN! (Rom. 4:17 last part of the verse as was Abe) And John penned John 1:1-3 on through verse 14 knowing ALL OF THIS!! Along with the Eternal Gospel of Rev. 14:6!

And.. sure, there are some who are still of the world that.. 'AND THE WORLD KNEW HIM NOT.'

As one post had Christ in a 'pen'ned as a 'g'od.

---Elijah

 

[Who Says]

Re: I AM they exceeding and great reward...

So then, is Christ in you ?

Is the Father in you ?

Is the Holy Spirit in you ?

Then you're agreeing that Christ in you is His divine nature.. right ?

Yes to all of those questions.

And absolutely it is by our sharing the divine nature.

 

[Who Says]

Re: I AM they exceeding and great reward...

Of course! And that is prophecy on this side of Christ's 'inherited' consumation as man/God. That is the true Doctrine of Christ as Promised by the Godhead! 2 John 1:9-11, yet, known by Them in Eternities PLAN! (Rom. 4:17 last part of the verse as was Abe) And John penned John 1:1-3 on through verse 14 knowing ALL OF THIS!! Along with the Eternal Gospel of Rev. 14:6!

And.. sure, there are some who are still of the world that.. 'AND THE WORLD KNEW HIM NOT.'

As one post had Christ in a 'pen'ned as a 'g'od.

---Elijah

I too feel that it is not right to use the translation "a god" at John 1:1.

I feel that it does obscure an important part of what is said but I also know that we will not help those who do this to see why it is improper if we approach it from a translative rules perspective. They have to first be able to catch a glimpse of what it is they are failing to see and only then will they understand that they are diminishing the presentation of the divine nature. And if they get upset over debate about the proper use of translative rules they are already conditioned to tune everything else out.

But I think this is a two-way street where there is (case by case of course) extremisms on both sides which must be reeled in.

 

[Eventide]

Re: I AM they exceeding and great reward...

Yes to all of those questions.

Can I ask how you were born again.. ?

And absolutely it is by our sharing the divine nature.

So obviously Christ in you is divine in nature..

 

[Who Says]

Re: I AM they exceeding and great reward...

Can I ask how you were born again.. ?



So obviously Christ in you is divine in nature..

I relate very intimately with Paul's experience as my own was much the same. I was very prideful and zealous to grab at the first thing I thought I had learned in the scriptures and begin making enemies with it. But I sincerely believed I was right and was doing what God wanted me to do. I could not understand why my life had become a living hell with everyone seeing me as an unreasonable hypocrite.

I began having distressing dreams and visions that caused me to do even crazier things as I resisted what I thought was Satan's attempts to compromise me. I had to lose absolutely everything before it happened.

Laying broken and devistated I finally let go and completely surrendered. I suddenly saw myself as knowing nothing. I lost faith in myself and in my ability to know anything. And laying there totally broken and surrendered he reached out and picked me up into his arms with such a rush of warmth and healing that it is almost impossible to describe. But it was as real as anything could ever be.

From that day foreward he does not let me spend a moment alone. I yet have dreams and converstaions with him both when I am sleeping and even when I am awake. It sounds crazy to most people but there are frequent times when i get my thinking twisted and I hear him telling me the correct way I should be thinking. He very often straightens me out where my thinking goes astray. And I know that I could not have thought these things through my self. But he does because he knows I now am completely willing to listen to him.

And I know in my heart that if he does this for me he does this for others. Even for those who right now think I am crazy once they hit that point of surrender, if they will.

 

[Alabaster]

Re: I AM they exceeding and great reward...

I relate very intimately with Paul's experience as my own was much the same. I was very prideful and zealous to grab at the first thing I thought I had learned in the scriptures and begin making enemies with it. But I sincerely believed I was right and was doing what God wanted me to do. I could not understand why my life had become a living hell with everyone seeing me as an unreasonable hypocrite.

I began having distressing dreams and visions that caused me to do even crazier things as I resisted what I thought was Satan's attempts to compromise me. I had to lose absolutely everything before it happened.

Laying broken and devistated I finally let go and completely surrendered. I suddenly saw myself as knowing nothing. I lost faith in myself and in my ability to know anything. And laying there totally broken and surrendered he reached out and picked me up into his arms with such a rush of warmth and healing that it is almost impossible to describe. But it was as real as anything could ever be.

From that day foreward he does not let me spend a moment alone. I yet have dreams and converstaions with him both when I am sleeping and even when I am awake. It sounds crazy to most people but there are frequent times when i get my thinking twisted and I hear him telling me the correct way I should be thinking. He very often straightens me out where my thinking goes astray. And I know that I could not have thought these things through my self. But he does because he knows I now am completely willing to listen to him.

And I know in my heart that if he does this for me he does this for others. Even for those who right now think I am crazy once they hit that point of surrender, if they will.

Hopefully, soon, the Lord Jesus will introduce Himself to you and correct your thinking regarding who He is, for you do Him no favours in denying Jesus is God. Surrendering your own way of thinking will be the start, for presuming to teach anything other than the fact that Jesus is God is false and is not of God, whatsoever.

What is not of God is from the flesh or of the devil, and is worthy of none other than the trash heap.

 

[Eventide]

Re: I AM they exceeding and great reward...

I relate very intimately with Paul's experience as my own was much the same. I was very prideful and zealous to grab at the first thing I thought I had learned in the scriptures and begin making enemies with it. But I sincerely believed I was right and was doing what God wanted me to do. I could not understand why my life had become a living hell with everyone seeing me as an unreasonable hypocrite.

I began having distressing dreams and visions that caused me to do even crazier things as I resisted what I thought was Satan's attempts to compromise me. I had to lose absolutely everything before it happened.

Laying broken and devistated I finally let go and completely surrendered. I suddenly saw myself as knowing nothing. I lost faith in myself and in my ability to know anything. And laying there totally broken and surrendered he reached out and picked me up into his arms with such a rush of warmth and healing that it is almost impossible to describe. But it was as real as anything could ever be.

From that day foreward he does not let me spend a moment alone. I yet have dreams and converstaions with him both when I am sleeping and even when I am awake. It sounds crazy to most people but there are frequent times when i get my thinking twisted and I hear him telling me the correct way I should be thinking. He very often straightens me out where my thinking goes astray. And I know that I could not have thought these things through my self. But he does because he knows I now am completely willing to listen to him.

And I know in my heart that if he does this for me he does this for others. Even for those who right now think I am crazy once they hit that point of surrender, if they will.

Interesting testimony.. no mention of repentance toward God or trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.. the gospel etc... I'm trying to understand how a person can be born of God by the incorruptible seed of the word of God and then deny the very word of God with respect to God being manifest in the flesh..

Evidently you do not believe that without controversy, that God was manifest in the flesh..?

Do you believe that the Lord Jesus Christ alone bore your sins in His own body on the tree..?

Do you trust in His precious shed blood alone for the forgiveness of your sins.. ?

 

[Sam21]

Re: I AM they exceeding and great reward...

I relate very intimately with Paul's experience as my own was much the same. I was very prideful and zealous to grab at the first thing I thought I had learned in the scriptures and begin making enemies with it. But I sincerely believed I was right and was doing what God wanted me to do. I could not understand why my life had become a living hell with everyone seeing me as an unreasonable hypocrite.

I began having distressing dreams and visions that caused me to do even crazier things as I resisted what I thought was Satan's attempts to compromise me. I had to lose absolutely everything before it happened.

Laying broken and devistated I finally let go and completely surrendered. I suddenly saw myself as knowing nothing. I lost faith in myself and in my ability to know anything. And laying there totally broken and surrendered he reached out and picked me up into his arms with such a rush of warmth and healing that it is almost impossible to describe. But it was as real as anything could ever be.

From that day foreward he does not let me spend a moment alone. I yet have dreams and converstaions with him both when I am sleeping and even when I am awake. It sounds crazy to most people but there are frequent times when i get my thinking twisted and I hear him telling me the correct way I should be thinking. He very often straightens me out where my thinking goes astray. And I know that I could not have thought these things through my self. But he does because he knows I now am completely willing to listen to him.

And I know in my heart that if he does this for me he does this for others. Even for those who right now think I am crazy once they hit that point of surrender, if they will.

Complete surrender will open the door for another spirit to come to you, God does not ask us to surrender to an experience,God asks us to use our will to commit ourselves to God and call upon Jesus to be our Saviour.
I have also had experiences with the actual person of Jesus Christ, in every case He gave me in context scripture in order to back up what He told me. Your Jesus is contradicting the word of God, Paul wrote often of "another Jesus" and "another gospel" and "another spirit"...all coming from satan and all pretending to be the real thing. Again,sir, I believe from your posts that you are being deceived by another spirit that is masquerading as the Holy Spirit. The scriptures are the mind of God, if the mind of God is saying that Jesus is God and "your Jesus" is saying that he is not God, then you do the math.

 

[Who Says]

Re: I AM they exceeding and great reward...

Hopefully, soon, the Lord Jesus will introduce Himself to you and correct your thinking regarding who He is, for you do Him no favours in denying Jesus is God. Surrendering your own way of thinking will be the start, for presuming to teach anything other than the fact that Jesus is God is false and is not of God, whatsoever.

What is not of God is from the flesh or of the devil, and is worthy of none other than the trash heap.

Don't be hateful.

If you guys are trying to encourage over to your spirit you are sure doing a good job of the opposite.

 

[Who Says]

Re: I AM they exceeding and great reward...

Interesting testimony.. no mention of repentance toward God or trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.. the gospel etc... I'm trying to understand how a person can be born of God by the incorruptible seed of the word of God and then deny the very word of God with respect to God being manifest in the flesh..

Evidently you do not believe that without controversy, that God was manifest in the flesh..?

Do you believe that the Lord Jesus Christ alone bore your sins in His own body on the tree..?

Do you trust in His precious shed blood alone for the forgiveness of your sins.. ?

I thought you knew all that is part of complete surrender.

I was not trying to teach what you ought to already know. I was just answering what i thought was a sincere question but maybe was not after all?

Next time you do not want to hear a questioned answered in trust of your sincerety in asking, don't ask it.

 

[Who Says]

Re: I AM they exceeding and great reward...

Complete surrender will open the door for another spirit to come to you, God does not ask us to surrender to an experience,God asks us to use our will to commit ourselves to God and call upon Jesus to be our Saviour.
I have also had experiences with the actual person of Jesus Christ, in every case He gave me in context scripture in order to back up what He told me. Your Jesus is contradicting the word of God, Paul wrote often of "another Jesus" and "another gospel" and "another spirit"...all coming from satan and all pretending to be the real thing. Again,sir, I believe from your posts that you are being deceived by another spirit that is masquerading as the Holy Spirit. The scriptures are the mind of God, if the mind of God is saying that Jesus is God and "your Jesus" is saying that he is not God, then you do the math.

Thank you Sam. I will certainly consider the spirit behind what you say.

You said: "God asks us to use our will to commit ourselves to God and call upon Jesus to be our Saviour."

That is what I did by emptying myself of what I thought I knew. I repented pride and became able to hear and be filled. The was not simply an experience but an action of humbling with a result that God blessed.

When you experience it you will know, too. But you won't experience until you become willing to commit to the action yourself.

That which is full cannot be filled and that is why you cannot hear me.

Like I told Alabaster, If you guys are trying to encourage over to your spirit you are sure doing a good job of the opposite.

Anyone who would think you guys are representing the true Christ's spirit by the manner in which you speak I can only shake my head in disbelief at.

You should be ashamed of yourselves for talking to people as you do.

I speak in generalities by the subject but I do not address individuals as you do. I have more respect for you as an individual than to dog you personally like that.

And you know you are not supposed to do that by forum rules but you are let get away with it all too often.