Is Jesus really God ?

[MarkT]

In the first resurrection those who have died in the service of God will be raised in a spiritual body and they will rule with Christ for a thousand years. There are a few who will be still be alive when the Lord comes who will also be changed. Death will have no power over those who are raised in the first resurrection.

 

[Free]

I think it is incorrect to once again separate the physical from the spiritual. Clearly Jesus was raised physically and clearly his physical body could do things that ours cannot. Perhaps it's better to think of his body, and our resurrection bodies, as a spiritualized physical body.

But this is the point. Jesus said a spirit hath not flesh and bones and he said God is spirit.

I don't think anyone would dispute the fact that the Father is spirit and does not have a body, but the point is that what Jesus said was:

Luk 24:39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.

Clearly there is a physical dimension to his spiritual body.

 

[Eventide]

But this is the point. Jesus said a spirit hath not flesh and bones and he said God is spirit.

What point ? Are you implying that that His resurrected body with flesh and bones was not spiritual..? The context here is that the disciples thought that they saw a spirit.. ie, like thinking you saw a ghost etc..

The difference between the physical body and the spiritual body, which we will inherit, is elemental. The spiritual body is not dust. Elementally it is the Word of God. It is indestructable. Jesus said unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he can not enter the kingdom of God. Water in this case refers to the living water Jesus gave us. I think the assumption is that saying it is a spiritual body means it is spirit and unseen and it can not be touched. This may be true of a spirit but it is not true of the spiritual body. Also this body is required to enter the kingdom of God. Presently we can not see this body but you have to have faith that it is there and that if this earthly tent is destroyed we have a house from God.

I don't disagree that the Spirit of God within us is not physical in nature.. as Christ dwells in our hearts.. although that doesn't mean that our resurrected bodies are not going to be physical... and have flesh and bone as Christ has..

Remember Jesus vanished as quickly as he appeared. You can't do that in a physical body. No one is saying the spiritual body can not be seen or held.

How can you say that when He just told them that He HAS flesh and bone..?

 

[MarkT]

I think it is incorrect to once again separate the physical from the spiritual. Clearly Jesus was raised physically and clearly his physical body could do things that ours cannot. Perhaps it's better to think of his body, and our resurrection bodies, as a spiritualized physical body.


I don't think anyone would dispute the fact that the Father is spirit and does not have a body, but the point is that what Jesus said was:

Luk 24:39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.

Clearly there is a physical dimension to his spiritual body.

No. It's not a combination of the two. Jesus separated that which is born of the flesh and that which is born of the Spirit. He said that which is born of the Spirit is spirit, so presently we can not see what he planted. But we will be raised in a spiritual body, a body which can be seen and held. Jesus even sat and ate with the disciples. So it's not that the spiritual body is spirit, though it is at this time. It is a body. But the spiritual body is elementally the words God planted in our heart. It is not a body of dust like the first man. It is a body of light. What do you think it means to be in Christ?

 

[MarkT]

What point ? Are you implying that that His resurrected body with flesh and bones was not spiritual..? The context here is that the disciples thought that they saw a spirit.. ie, like thinking you saw a ghost etc..

That's right. But Jesus was the Word of God, so elementally his flesh and bones were not perishable. He couldn't be held down by death. And neither can we if we believe. But the problem with the Trinitarians is they love their humanity too much to ever believe man is only temporary.

How can you say that when He just told them that He HAS flesh and bone..?

I can say that because it says so in the Bible.

'And their eyes were opened and they recognized him; and he vanished out of their sight.' Luke 24:31 RSV

 

[MarkT]

Revelation 21:3 RSV
and I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them;


I'm not saying Jesus isn't God. I'm saying God made Jesus to be his body so that his dwelling will be with his people.

 

[Asyncritus]

That's right. But Jesus was the Word of God, so elementally his flesh and bones were not perishable. He couldn't be held down by death. And neither can we if we believe. But the problem with the Trinitarians is they love their humanity too much to ever believe man is only temporary.



I can say that because it says so in the Bible.

'And their eyes were opened and they recognized him; and he vanished out of their sight.' Luke 24:31 RSV

Not wishing to get involved in this, but didn't the same thing happen to Philip in Acts 8?

 

[Drew]

Well If you refuse to understand words to mean what they mean then no wonder you can't understand me.

Christ is just the Greek word for Messiah and they both mean, "The Annointed One of God". As to what that annointing is for (such as kingship and priesthood) that is beside the point. It is yet a choosing for a special purpose.

Luke 23:35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.

Let's say you are right. That does not diminish the force of arguments that you and others continue to ignore.

I cannot emphasize how devastating this is for your position. Assuming that you are posting for purposes other than to amuse yourself, I suggest you need to fact the following fact: anyone whose mind is even partly open to the divinity of Jesus will wonder why every single one of you - WhoSays, Judaic, Asyncritus -simply ignore some of arguments that make a case for Jesus' divinity, even though you have been repeatedly asked to engage them.

In any event, even if "Mesiah" means "chosen", this is hardly an argument against the divinity of Jesus. The following reasoning is not correct:

1. Messiah denotes "chosen-ness"
2. Jesus is Messiah;
3. That which is "chosen" by God cannot be God;
4. Therefore Jesus cannot be God.

The problem is point 3 - it is a clearly question-begging assertion in that it denies, without justification, the very thing we are talking about - can a single "God in substance" take the form of having three persons.

 

[savedbygrace57]

The Almighty !

Jesus is God:

Because He claims to Himself the attribute of omnipotence. "I am Alpha and Omega, the Almighty." Rev. 1:8. He is the One of verse 7 who was pierced.​

 

[Asyncritus]

It is becoming increasingly clear, to me at any rate, that we need a definition of 'divinity' - a scriptural definition or description.

Can you please oblige, Drew?

 

[Asyncritus]

The Almighty !

Jesus is God:

Because He claims to Himself the attribute of omnipotence. "I am Alpha and Omega, the Almighty." Rev. 1:8. He is the One of verse 7 who was pierced.​

Dear me. Try reading that again sbg57.

Oh. and BTW, did you get as far as v6 of the same chapter?

 

[Asyncritus]

Let's say you are right. That does not diminish the force of arguments that you and others continue to ignore.

I cannot emphasize how devastating this is for your position. Assuming that you are posting for purposes other than to amuse yourself, I suggest you need to fact the following fact: anyone whose mind is even partly open to the divinity of Jesus will wonder why every single one of you - WhoSays, Judaic, Asyncritus -simply ignore some of arguments that make a case for Jesus' divinity, even though you have been repeatedly asked to engage them.

Drew

I have asked several times, myself, how people like yourself understand such very clear verses as the following - and as yet you, Free, sbg57 et al have said simply nothing.

I'll list them again, and hope you will engage with them directly and in response to this post:

1 John 14.28: 'For my Father is greater than I'

2 20.17 "I ascend to My Father and your Father; and to my God and your God"

3 Rev 1.6 "...and he [Jesus] made us kings and priests unto his [Jesus'] God and his [Jesus'] Father"

4 Philipp 2:"Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him [Jesus].."

5 Eph 1.3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ..."

6 1 Peter 1.3: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ..."

7 Eph.1.17 "...that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ..."

8 1 Cor 15.28: "And when all things have been subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all"

9 Rom 15.6 "..that with one accord ye may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ..."

10 2 Cor 1.3 :"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.."

And please let's have no more nonsense about this being 'while He was in human form' - because all of the quotations from the epistles are written AFTER HE HAD ASCENDED to the right hand of God.

Ignoring the question of a Father's superiority to his son, I want you (or your guys) to explain to me of little brain, how anyone can possibly be, in any sense, EQUAL to his God.

That is the crux of the matter, in my mind.

Thanks for trying.

 

[Hitch]

Dual nature,duh.

When the dealer give you an Ace and 6 , he wants you to know you've got 17, what he wants you to forget is that you have 17 and ,at the same time, you have 7. Jesus is a man born of a woman, Jesus is God. For a few years he was bodily present on earth as both.

 

[Free]

Revelation 21:3 RSV
and I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them;


I'm not saying Jesus isn't God. I'm saying God made Jesus to be his body so that his dwelling will be with his people.

If God made Jesus, then by definition, Jesus cannot be God.

 

[Hitch]

If God made Jesus, then by definition, Jesus cannot be God.

Yup.

 

[Asyncritus]

If God made Jesus, then by definition, Jesus cannot be God.

Well, I'm glad you got this far.

At least, you agree with Revelation 3.14:

"These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God."

 

[Free]

Well, I'm glad you got this far.

At least, you agree with Revelation 3.14:

"These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God."

Of course, what I was clearly implying, is that since Jesus wasn't created, he is God.

 

[Asyncritus]

Of course, what I was clearly implying, is that since Jesus wasn't created, he is God.

Free,

If he was the beginning of the creation of God, then he WAS created.

Simple, isn't it?

 

[Free]

Free,

If he was the beginning of the creation of God, then he WAS created.

Simple, isn't it?

It is if one understands what can be meant by "the beginning of creation." It can mean "the beginner" or "author" of creation. We have already seen there are several passages which clearly show Jesus wasn't created, which is sufficient to allow for this understanding. This is all part of taking things in context.

Here is the same word, arche, used elsewhere in Revelation:

Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (NKJV)

Rev 21:6 And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. (NKJV)

Rev 22:12 "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last." (NKJV)

And to put the last two verses in context:

Rev 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star." (NKJV)

Here we clearly see that Jesus has called himself "the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last."

This echoes Rev 1:8, 11, 17-18:

Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
....
Rev 1:11 saying, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last," and, "What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea."
Rev 1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
.....
Rev 1:17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.
Rev 1:18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. (NKJV)

 

[Asyncritus]

It is if one understands what can be meant by "the beginning of creation." It can mean "the beginner" or "author" of creation. We have already seen there are several passages which clearly show Jesus wasn't created, which is sufficient to allow for this understanding. This is all part of taking things in context.

This is question begging in excelsis. You are assuming what you are trying to prove - again.

Here is the same word, arche, used elsewhere in Revelation:

Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (NKJV)

Jesus is never called the Almighty - so this is a clear reference to the Father: "...saith the Lord God" who cannot be mistaken for Jesus, and the rest of the verse is the covenant name, YHWH in translation - who was, who is, and who is to come.

This is the Divine imprimatur on the book of Revelation, the seal that it is genuinely from God Himself.

I say that because those words are used directly in ch 4 of the Almighty who is the one sitting on the throne (4.2)

You will have observed, I hope, the this book is the one which 'God gave unto him' (1.1). That is the first assertion, and which proves that Jesus is God's messenger in all this, not the author.

Rev 21:6 And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. (NKJV)

Jesus is the beginning of God's New Creation as He just said in 3.14 as I pointed out

Rev 22:12 "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last." (NKJV)

The same holds true, and is a reference to ch 1, where He describes Himself fully for our benefit.

v5... the firstborn of the dead...

v17.. "I am the first and the last:and the Living One" what does that mean? He explains:
"..and I was dead, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of hades".

And to put the last two verses in context:

Rev 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star." (NKJV)

If he is the offspring of David, then he cannot be from eternity, can he?

In case you're wondering, He is the Root - because He was dead and in the earth. He is the Offspring, because the dead Root produced a new shoot, David's greater Son.

Here we clearly see that Jesus has called himself "the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last."

Of what? Of the New Creation of God in Christ.

This echoes Rev 1:8, 11, 17-18:

Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

This has been explained before.
....

Rev 1:11 saying, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last," and, "What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea."
Rev 1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
.....

See previous remarks.

Rev 1:17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.
Rev 1:18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. (NKJV)

Every one of your quotes refers to the BEGINNING OF THE NEW CREATION OF GOD IN CHRIST.

The last 2 are particularly telling.

He is the first to emerge from the grave permanently. He will lock the door finally. He has the keys of death and the grave. v18.

Now please comment on ch1.6:

'..priests unto HIS GOD and Father'.