Is Jesus really God ?

[Eventide]

Re: I AM they exceeding and great reward...

I thought you knew all that is part of complete surrender.

I was not trying to teach what you ought to already know. I was just answering what i thought was a sincere question but maybe was not after all?

Next time you do not want to hear a questioned answered in trust of your sincerety in asking, don't ask it.

It is an extremely sincere question.. testimonies say a lot and I can't judge you anyway.. as mentioned, I'm trying to understand how a person can be born again by the incorruptible seed of the word of God while denying what that word says in simplicity and truth..?

Here's the same sincere and important question.. do you believe that the Lord Jesus Christ alone bore your sins (and the sin of the world) in His own body there upon Calvary's cross..?

That's the heart of the gospel right there.. that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures.

 

[Who Says]

Re: I AM they exceeding and great reward...

It is an extremely sincere question.. testimonies say a lot and I can't judge you anyway.. as mentioned, I'm trying to understand how a person can be born again by the incorruptible seed of the word of God while denying what that word says in simplicity and truth..?

Here's the same sincere and important question.. do you believe that the Lord Jesus Christ alone bore your sins (and the sin of the world) in His own body there upon Calvary's cross..?

That's the heart of the gospel right there.. that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures.

Amen. That is the heart of the scriptures right there.

As for the rest of what you said I do understand your confusion. I know you think that if you can find just the right thing to say that I will see it as you see it. And I know that is a very sincere desire on your part, even a noble one.

I am also aware that when this does not happen it can and does lead to frustration out of which things become poorly stated. All of that I understand is quite natural and so I do not begin to see you as wicked because of it.

A reality of life is that we as imperfect humans in this flesh have a righteousness that is like filthy rags compared to God's. The mercy we are being shown has much to do with assisting us to work that out of us.

But because of it a righteous man is capable in rare moments of doing a wicked or evil thing, like Paul participating in murdering Christians. And God understands that. So as long as we are sincere and humble to repent when it is called to our attention we have forgiveness.

I would that I could come up with the right words to help you see what it is that I see. Because I have no confusion in me as to why you do not understand what I say and I do not have to see you as wicked to explain it to myself.

 

[Eventide]

Re: I AM they exceeding and great reward...

I would that I could come up with the right words to help you see what it is that I see.

I understand that you deny that the Lord Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh, even the fulness of the Godhead bodily..

So it's more as to why.. Do you think that God's word is bound in translation or something like that, and that we can't understand it in English.. or something along those lines..?

Because I have no confusion in me as to why you do not understand what I say and I do not have to see you as wicked to explain it to myself.

Well, why can't I understand..? IS it because you can't effectively comminucate that with words, or is it something else..?

It's a simple question as to WHY ? Can you explain why you do not believe that Jesus of Nazareth was God manifested in the flesh ?

 

[Who Says]

Re: I AM they exceeding and great reward...

The dilemma for me is that both many of those that believe Christ is God and many of those that believe Christ is only the Son of God have the same confusion at me.

I see this though, the focus of our faith is to be on God the Father as the power and source of strength in all things.

In Christ we learn to do that. By emulating Christ and taking on his divinely functioning mindset letting it totally replace our old mindset we become able to do that.

Our mind is our spirit. Jesus said, "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak." Paul said, Romans 7:25 "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

I have said time and time again that much of the problem comes in that we first must gain a better understanding of the spirit.

 

[Eventide]

Re: I AM they exceeding and great reward...

The dilemma for me is that both many of those that believe Christ is God and many of those that believe Christ is only the Son of God have the same confusion at me.

I see this though, the focus of our faith is to be on God the Father as the power and source of strength in all things.

In Christ we learn to do that. By emulating Christ and taking on his divinely functioning mindset letting it totally replace our old mindset we become able to do that.

Our mind is our spirit. Jesus said, "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak." Paul said, Romans 7:25 "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

I have said time and time again that much of the problem comes in that we first must gain a better understanding of the spirit.

I understand this.. although it doesn't tell me why you don't believe that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh..

I understand putting off the old and putting on Christ and the spiritual aspects of that, to some extent of course.. I wouldn't claim to understand that fully... What's the basis for your belief.. again, is it a translation thing.. or something along those lines..?

How can you read the scriptures and come to an understanding that Jesus is not God manifest in the flesh..? If the Spirit of God testifies of Him.. how is He communicating to you that Jesus is not God ?

 

[Who Says]

Re: I AM they exceeding and great reward...

I understand that you deny that the Lord Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh, even the fulness of the Godhead bodily..

So it's more as to why.. Do you think that God's word is bound in translation or something like that, and that we can't understand it in English.. or something along those lines..?



Well, why can't I understand..? IS it because you can't effectively comminucate that with words, or is it something else..?

It's a simple question as to WHY ? Can you explain why you do not believe that Jesus of Nazareth was God manifested in the flesh ?

It revolves around the word "manifest". That word merely means "to make known". And I say that Christ did come to manifest God in the flesh for which those that believe that Christ is only the Son of God become confused at me.

But I see a difference between manifesting in a literal sense which would render us to literally see God and the spiritual sense in which Christ did manifest God to us. We can only see God as Christ manifested Him through spiritual eyes. And that was what Doubting Thomas experienced. We there witnessed a moment of one crying out Abba because Christ had helped Doubting Thomas to finally get his spiritual eyes opened.

 

[Eventide]

Re: I AM they exceeding and great reward...

It revolves around the word "manifest". That word merely means "to make known".

I agree.. and how could Jesus make God fully known if He wasn't God.. ?

And I say that Christ did come to manifest God in the flesh for which those that believe that Christ is only the Son of God become confused at me.

I don't know what you mean when you say that people become confused at you..? Confused at what you say obviously..

Do you believe that Jesus was created at His birth, and didn't exist before He was manifest in the flesh ?

But I see a difference between manifesting in a literal sense which would render us to literally see God and the spiritual sense in which Christ did manifest God to us. We can only see God as Christ manifested Him through spiritual eyes. And that was what Doubting Thomas experienced. We there witnessed a moment of one crying out Abba because Christ had helped Doubting Thomas to finally get his spiritual eyes opened.

Of course.. we don't physically see Jesus although we see all that He is throughout the scriptures.. from page one of Genesis all the way through, for in the volume of the book it is written of Him.. and that's all spiritual.. for His words are spirit and life..

I don't need to see God physically to 'see' that He is God.. I can see clearly that He is God through His living and powerful word.. if that doesn't confuse you..

 

[Sam21]

Hi Who,a simple question, if you died this day why do you believe that God will count you righteous(if you believe that God will call you righteous)? Could you do me a big favor and just say what you believe to be true in a clear direct way(thank you).

 

[Who Says]

Hi Who,a simple question, if you died this day why do you believe that God will count you righteous(if you believe that God will call you righteous)? Could you do me a big favor and just say what you believe to be true in a clear direct way(thank you).

Like the blind man who answered his questioners saying, I only know I was blind but now I see" this is my answer:

I was dead but now I am alive. That was a pure 100% mercy to me that I had nothing to do with but to accept it. Nothing I am required to do can alter that. Nothing I am asked of God to do can purchase that. It was the gift of God by grace through the ransom of Jesus His Son. And that is what it remains.

 

[Who Says]

Re: I AM they exceeding and great reward...

I agree.. and how could Jesus make God fully known if He wasn't God.. ?

If we are the body of Christ we are to be doing that same thing in his stead. He did not give his body a lessor light than his to bear in this world. He gave us his light. And it is that light that manifests God.

I don't know what you mean when you say that people become confused at you..? Confused at what you say obviously..

So what is your point?

Do you believe that Jesus was created at His birth, and didn't exist before He was manifest in the flesh ?

Don't be ridiculous. You know full well I have said Christ was the one and only unique Son of God, the firstborn over all creation through whom all things were created of God.

Between this comment and the one just before about the confusion as well as what you go on to say, it is apparent you have suddenly turned to the trickery of the Pharisees as they tried to trip up Jesus with their many foolish questions.

When you get ready to continue an honest conversation let me know. I see that you are one way until others appear on the thread with you and then you start playing to their presence and lose your sincerity.

 

[Elijah674]

Re: I AM they exceeding and great reward...

I too feel that it is not right to use the translation "a god" at John 1:1.

I feel that it does obscure an important part of what is said but I also know that we will not help those who do this to see why it is improper if we approach it from a translative rules perspective. They have to first be able to catch a glimpse of what it is they are failing to see and only then will they understand that they are diminishing the presentation of the divine nature. And if they get upset over debate about the proper use of translative rules they are already conditioned to tune everything else out.

But I think this is a two-way street where there is (case by case of course) extremisms on both sides which must be reeled in.

I had not gone back to check? did you remove your post??? The prophet said to David, thou art the man!

---Elijah

 

[Who Says]

Re: I AM they exceeding and great reward...

I had not gone back to check? did you remove your post??? The prophet said to David, thou art the man!

---Elijah

Sorry Elijah. I have no idea what you are asking or referring to.

By the way, why has the heading on this thread changed to say, "I AM they exceeding and great reward... "?

I noticed that back about the time I began posting this recent series. I think I will have my neighbor do some checking of a few things on his computer for me as I have so much to do on mine.

 

[Eventide]

Re: I AM they exceeding and great reward...

If we are the body of Christ we are to be doing that same thing in his stead. He did not give his body a lessor light than his to bear in this world. He gave us his light. And it is that light that manifests God.

I agree with this.. although that's not what I was asking.. I asked how could Jesus make God fully known without being God ?

So what is your point?

Is what you mean when you say 'people get confused at me' the same thing as 'confused at what you say'..?

Don't be ridiculous. You know full well I have said Christ was the one and only unique Son of God, the firstborn over all creation through whom all things were created of God.

That's what I mean though.. to me it seems ridiculous that you do not see Jesus as God, who inhabits eternity, and has no beginning or end of days etc.. if you don't believe that He's created, then how can He not be God ?

Between this comment and the one just before about the confusion as well as what you go on to say, it is apparent you have suddenly turned to the trickery of the Pharisees as they tried to trip up Jesus with their many foolish questions.

When you get ready to continue an honest conversation let me know. I see that you are one way until others appear on the thread with you and then you start playing to their presence and lose your sincerity.

Quick to judge.. I'm seriously interested in how you've come to believe that Jesus is not God.. the Spirit of God testifies of Christ in all things.. do you believe that He is testifying to you that Jesus is not God, or do you think that this is a struggle within your own mind so to speak.

 

[Sam21]

Like the blind man who answered his questioners saying, I only know I was blind but now I see" this is my answer:

I was dead but now I am alive. That was a pure 100% mercy to me that I had nothing to do with but to accept it. Nothing I am required to do can alter that. Nothing I am asked of God to do can purchase that. It was the gift of God by grace through the ransom of Jesus His Son. And that is what it remains.

Yes, but when the blind man made that statement he was not saved because he did not really know who Jesus was, he had to recognize who Jesus was and then believe in what he had recognized. If you do not know who Jesus really is then you are just a lost man who now sees and used to be blind.

 

[Who Says]

Yes, but when the blind man made that statement he was not saved because he did not really know who Jesus was, he had to recognize who Jesus was and then believe in what he had recognized. If you do not know who Jesus really is then you are just a lost man who now sees and used to be blind.

Like that has any affect on the point I made.

You just like to argue.

 

[Alabaster]

Re: I AM they exceeding and great reward...

Don't be hateful.

If you guys are trying to encourage over to your spirit you are sure doing a good job of the opposite.

There is NOTHING hateful in what I said. I speak truth and to the point---I don't play pat-a-cake. Of course, there is always the risk of you running in the opposite direction. If you miss the truth when you are supposed to be listening to God, why should you all of a sudden receive it when someone speaks it on a Christian forum? Forums are not conducive to learning. In fact, for the most part, they serve to further deepen one's convictions---even erroneous ones.

Have fun with yours.

 

[Alabaster]

Re: I AM they exceeding and great reward...

It revolves around the word "manifest". That word merely means "to make known". And I say that Christ did come to manifest God in the flesh for which those that believe that Christ is only the Son of God become confused at me.

But I see a difference between manifesting in a literal sense which would render us to literally see God and the spiritual sense in which Christ did manifest God to us. We can only see God as Christ manifested Him through spiritual eyes. And that was what Doubting Thomas experienced. We there witnessed a moment of one crying out Abba because Christ had helped Doubting Thomas to finally get his spiritual eyes opened.

If I walked into your living room, you'd experience Alabaster's manifest presence.

By the same token, God is manifest in the flesh as the man named Jesus. Hence, the name, Immanuel, which Isaiah prophesied thrice about and an angel of the Lord as well. I trust that authority well and above what you claim to know. Holy Spirit did not reveal to you what you are trying to teach.

God says He is the first and the last. So does JESUS!


Isaiah 41:4 NLT
Who has done such mighty deeds,
summoning each new generation from the beginning of time?
It is I, the Lord, the First and the Last.
I alone am he.â€

Revelation 1:17 NLT
When I saw him, I fell at his feet as if I were dead. But he laid his right hand on me and said, “Don’t be afraid! I am the First and the Last.

 

[MarkT]

Not sure I understand your point. Do you, or do you not believe that the final state of the redeemed saint will be in a body that is physical in the specific sense that it will, like Jesus' body, be an "object" in space with arms, legs, hands, a head, hair etc?

I agree that Jesus' body was "different", but let's remember why we are talking about this in the first place. You argued that the very notion of "God" taking physical form was incoherent, and you grounded your argument in a "physical" vs "spirit" distinction. And yet, as per 1 Corinthians 15, we have Paul using the word "spiritual" to describe an object with spatial extension.

Yeah. He was talking about the resurrection when the spiritual body will be raised. What did he say? It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body.

This shows that Paul believes that the notions of "physicality" and "spirit" are combinable. Therefore I am not sure how this particular argument of yours - that it is a contradiction in terms for "God as spirit" to take on human physicality.

What do you mean combinable? If the physical is changed, then it is no longer physical. Jesus said, ‘that which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit‘. He didn’t say anything about a combination of the two. Anyways Paul isn’t saying what you’re saying. He is making that distinction which you are denying.

 

[Eventide]

The scriptures are clear that the Lord Jesus Christ was raised physically..

And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

I suppose that if a person is going to deny that Jesus is God, what difference would it make to deny the physical resurrection of the dead..

That's what I don't understand.. if Jesus was not created, and has no beginning or end of days.. and is the one who inhabits eternity... then how in the world is He not God ?

 

[MarkT]

The scriptures are clear that the Lord Jesus Christ was raised physically..

And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

I suppose that if a person is going to deny that Jesus is God, what difference would it make to deny the physical resurrection of the dead..

That's what I don't understand.. if Jesus was not created, and has no beginning or end of days.. and is the one who inhabits eternity... then how in the world is He not God ?

But this is the point. Jesus said a spirit hath not flesh and bones and he said God is spirit.

The difference between the physical body and the spiritual body, which we will inherit, is elemental. The spiritual body is not dust. Elementally it is the Word of God. It is indestructable. Jesus said unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he can not enter the kingdom of God. Water in this case refers to the living water Jesus gave us. I think the assumption is that saying it is a spiritual body means it is spirit and unseen and it can not be touched. This may be true of a spirit but it is not true of the spiritual body. Also this body is required to enter the kingdom of God. Presently we can not see this body but you have to have faith that it is there and that if this earthly tent is destroyed we have a house from God.

Remember Jesus vanished as quickly as he appeared. You can't do that in a physical body. No one is saying the spiritual body can not be seen or held.