Is Jesus really God ?

[zionwarrior]

"The doctrine of the Trinity is considered beyond the grasp of human reasoning [The Encyclopedia Americana]."

"The trinity is not directly and immediately the Word of God [New Catholic Encyclopedia]."

"The doctrine of the holy trinity is not taught in the Old Testament [New Catholic Encyclopedia]."

 

[zionwarrior]

John 14:28

28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

"there is no one like Yahweh our God." Exodus 8:10
"Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him." Deuteronomy 4:35
"Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other." Deuteronomy 4:39
"See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me" Deuteronomy 32:39
"Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!" Deuteronomy 6:4
"You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You" 2 Samuel 7:22
"For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?" 2 Samuel 22:32
"Yahweh is God; there is no one else." 1 Kings 8:60
"You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth." 2 Kings 19:15
"O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You" 1 Chronicles 17:20
"You alone [bad] are Yahweh." Nehemiah 9:6
"For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God" Psalm 18:31
"You alone [bad], Lord, are God." Isaiah 37:20
"Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me." Isaiah 43:10
"‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me." Isaiah 44:6
"Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none." Isaiah 44:8
"I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God." Isaiah 45:5
"Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God." Isaiah 45:14
"I am Yahweh, and there is none else." Isaiah 45:18
"Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me." Isaiah 45:21
"I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me" Isaiah 46:9
"And Yahweh will be king over all the earth; in that day Yahweh will be the only one [echad], and His name the only one[echad]." Zechariah 14:9

 

[Drew]

"The doctrine of the Trinity is considered beyond the grasp of human reasoning [The Encyclopedia Americana]."

Even if this is so, which I actually doubt, it does not do harm to the proposition that Jesus is the embodiment of God. The point is this, and it is a really important point to grasp: There are things that are true of the Universe that cannot be conceptually grasped by the limited human mind. You seem to trying to argue that if some notion X cannot be fully and completely elaborated by the human mind, then it cannot be true. I suggest this is incorrect reasoning. In any event, I suspect many Christian theologians would not substantially disagree with this assertion from a particular encyclopedia - there may be some challenges with the concept of the Trinity, but I see no evidence that it is fundamentally an unworkable concept. Again, please address this question already posed to you: What is wrong with this statement:

the Father is clearly not the Son, yet the Son is God in the same way the Father is.

ZW, I politely suggest that you simply cannot keep ignoring difficult challenges posed to you. Am I ignoring things you post? No. So please engage the challenges to your position.

Here is a good example of the problem with the line of reasoning I see you pursuing here. Physicists will tell us that a proper description of the phenomena of light requires that we see light as both particle and wave. This seems conceptually impossible - how can something be both particle and wave, since these two models are inconsistent with one another at a number of points.

And yet the universe is what it is. Nature is not "obliged" to be entirely and fully comprehendable to us. So even if the notion of the Trinity poses some conceptual puzzles for us, it should not be dismissed on this basis, especially in light of the arguments for the divinity of Jesus, Biblical arguments whose contents you continue to simply ignore. This silence speaks loudly.

 

[Drew]

"The trinity is not directly and immediately the Word of God [New Catholic Encyclopedia]."

True enough, but this is hardly a legitimate basis for rejecting the Trinity. The book "Animal Farm" is clearly a political allegory about 20th century Russia, but we are never "directly and immediately" told this in the book itself.

""The doctrine of the holy trinity is not taught in the Old Testament [New Catholic Encyclopedia]."

Not really correct, as I will now demonstrate:

I would suggest that the Old Testament does indeed allow for the possibility of a divine Messiah.

Consider this from Daniel 7:

As I looked,
"thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
and its wheels were all ablaze.

Note the plurality - more than one throne is set in place and "God the Father" (using the Christian terminology) takes one place. Then not what happens next:

In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

I suggest that the rather obvious implication is that "the son of man" takes the other throne - effectively establishing his divinity by establishing His equality with "God the Father".

This shows that the Old Testament is at least open to this possibility of "plurality" in the Godhead.

Now, please, ZW, do not let this argument simply pass by unaddressed as you have so many others. How does the Daniel 7 text not clearly open the door to a situation where Jesus is set in a "divine" role (to the extent that we see the "son of man" figure as Jesus)?

 

[Drew]

John 14:28

28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Not a challenge for the Trinitirian. Once more, you presume a certain reading of what it means for the Father to be "greater than" Jesus - namely that Jesus is asserting that the Father is greater in terms of "essential substance". You continue to ignore the possiblity that Jesus is merely asserting that He (Jesus) is subjecting Himself to the Father's will (and that the Father is greater in this particular sense) and that Jesus is not denying that He is of the same "substance" as the Father.

And, of course, we still have the arguments about how Jesus acts and speaks as though He was indeed the very embodiment of Israel's God returning to His people.

Why do you continue to refuse to engage those arguments? What impression do you think this will give the objective reader?

 

[Drew]

"there is no one like Yahweh our God." Exodus 8:10
"Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him." Deuteronomy 4:35
"Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other." Deuteronomy 4:39
"See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me" Deuteronomy 32:39
"Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!" Deuteronomy 6:4
"You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You" 2 Samuel 7:22

All these texts are, I suggest, polemical in nature, aimed at suggesting that the gods of Israel's pagan neighbours are idols. And, as such, these statements are simply not intended to offer an "inner analysis" of the nature of Israel's God.

This is why context is so important. If you read major chunks of the Old Testament, a persistent theme re-appears over and over again - Israel falls into the trap of worshipping other gods (e.g. Asherath - however that is spelled). So the concern is not multiple persons within the Jewish God, it is a concern over idolatry.

 

[savedbygrace57]

mk 13:32

But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

This scripture by no means teaches that Jesus is not God in His Divine Nature, but it teaches us that for the sake of humility, in the days of His flesh, being made like unto His Brethren, He took on this limitation, but I dont believe this limitation is true of Him now that He has been Glorified and entered into His Glory.

After His resurrection when He stated that all power in heaven and earth had been given to Him , that would have to include all Knowledge as well..

Matt 28:


18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
​

 

[Free]

I believe Jesus is God as much as I am my father.
I am infact for a large part, my father, because I am made up of his DNA ...

In addition to what Drew has said, I would argue that it is part of God's DNA, part of his essential nature, part of what makes God God, to have always existed. If, as you are saying, Jesus has God's DNA, then it necessarily follows that Jesus has always existed, it cannot be any other way.

But the bible tells us that God is not a God of confusion ... Concepts beyond our comprehension are clearly ones of confusion.

And here is a verse taken out of context. Paul says that God is not the author of confusion in regards to the church meetings at Corinth where tongues and prophecy were not done in an orderly manner. Do not use this verse in regards to something that is difficult to understand.

Trinitarians posts are usually quite long ... lol

They're long because, once again, this is not about posting the top three verses. Any proper theological discussion will be long since there is almost always a lot that needs to be said. Your posts are short because you are either unwilling or unable to provide a proper response to the arguments being presented.

Thanks Francisdesales ... we heard you the first time.

Perhaps you are referring to my post, not Francisdesales's. But it needed to be said again since the false argument was brought up a second time. So, no, at least someone didn't hear it the first time.

 

[francisdesales]

Thanks Francisdesales ... we heard you the first time.

Regards !!!

You heard, but it didn't sink in...

 

[zionwarrior]

My position does not add too or take away from the word of God so there is no need to defend my position. My position is as stated by the word eg.

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 14:28
28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Mark 10:18
18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.




You on the other hand are adding too ...

"The trinity is not directly and immediately the Word of God [New Catholic Encyclopedia]."
"You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you." Deuteronomy 4:2

 

[zionwarrior]

You heard, but it didn't sink in...

I tend to filter out innane statements.

 

[Free]

My position does not add too or take away from the word of God so there is no need to defend my position. My position is as stated by the word eg.

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 14:28
28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Mark 10:18
18 “Why do you call me good?†Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

Again, as has been stated several times now, quoting a few verses, or even several, do not an argument make, nor do they mean that one knows the full extent of what is being said. If you want to debate at such a superficial level, then go ahead, but you are doing neither the Scriptures nor any readers any justice.

You on the other hand are adding too ...

"The trinity is not directly and immediately the Word of God [New Catholic Encyclopedia]."

"The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another."

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Blessed Trinity

As a former RC, you know that they teach the Trinity as truth. I'll let Francisdesales chime in on this since this would be his area.

http://www.christianforums.net/I tend to filter out innane statements.

I tend to filter out innane statements.

You sure didn't seem to mind the false argument, so why do you suggest that a proper understanding of history is "inane"? Please refrain from such statements and address the many points that have been made.

 

[zionwarrior]

Sorry dude, im not here to debate, im here to make a statement, take it or leave it ...
As I said, I have no need to 'debate' or indeed, defend my position.
Why dont you try to ask God to defend his position ;)

Francisdesales statement became inane the second time he stated it ...

 

[Free]

Sorry dude, im not here to debate, im here to make a statement, take it or leave it ...
As I said, I have no need to 'debate' or indeed, defend my position.
Why dont you try to ask God to defend his position ;)

I will leave it. You most definitely need to defend your position as it has been shown to be the far weaker of the two, based mainly on circular reasoning and Scripture taken out of context. These are discussion/debate forums. If you make a statement you really should back it up and at least attempt to rebut any counter-arguments. If you can't or are unwilling, then the statement should be left unsaid.

 

[zionwarrior]

Far weaker in your mind perhaps, but luckily we don't all think as you do. Our position is strong because it comes directly from Gods word. And we take God at his word and don't try to read more into it than what was intended.

"The horizon of many people is a circle with zero radius which they call their point of view." Albert Einstein

 

[Cornelius]

The evidence is just overwhelming


Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,†which is translated, “God with us.â€

Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 43:10,11 - “You are My witnesses,†says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.â€
Revelation 1:17-18; Revelation 2:8 - (Jesus is the First and the Last)

Isaiah 44:6 - (God is the Redeemer)
2 Peter 1:1 (Jesus is the Redeemer) - “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christâ€


John 1:3; Colossians 1:16 - (Jesus made all things)

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,

John 5:17,18 - “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.†Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:23 - that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins.â€

John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.â€

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.†Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?†The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.â€

John 14:6-7 - Jesus said to him, “I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.â€

John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?â€

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!â€

There so many more verses. This is really an argument that should not be taking place between those who call themselves Christians.

 

[zionwarrior]

The evidence is just overwhelming


Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,†which is translated, “God with us.â€

Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 43:10,11 - “You are My witnesses,†says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.â€
Revelation 1:17-18; Revelation 2:8 - (Jesus is the First and the Last)

Isaiah 44:6 - (God is the Redeemer)
2 Peter 1:1 (Jesus is the Redeemer) - “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christâ€


John 1:3; Colossians 1:16 - (Jesus made all things)

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,

John 5:17,18 - “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.†Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:23 - that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins.â€

John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.â€

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.†Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?†The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.â€

John 14:6-7 - Jesus said to him, “I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.â€

John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?â€

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!â€

There so many more verses. This is really an argument that should not be taking place between those who call themselves Christians.

Sorry Cornelius, but if you had read this thread in its entirety, every one of the scriptures you have quoted can be debunked.

 

[Cornelius]

Sorry Cornelius, but if you had read this thread in its entirety, every one of the scriptures you have quoted can be debunked.

The question should be : Why would a Christian want to debunk it ?

 

[Cornelius]

Sorry dude, im not here to debate, im here to make a statement, take it or leave it ...
As I said, I have no need to 'debate' or indeed, defend my position.
.

Yep, so am I. No debating, I am just going to state it : Jesus is God.

 

[bibleMAN]

To those here who do believe in the trinity: Do you also believe that those who do NOT believe in the trinity will NOT be saved?