Is Jesus really God ?

[zionwarrior]

"The Father is greater than I."

... can't get any more clear than that. Except maybe 1 Corinthians 8:6 "There is for us only one God, the Father."

I can't fathom how people can ignore such clear scripture in exchange for an interpretation of a questionable translation of John 1:1.

There are so many that are quite clear ...
1 Do not let your hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God. Exercise faith also in me (John 14).

Her Jesus emphatically states he is not God.

 

[nadab]

Christ Deity as God is seen in scripture when we compare scripture with scripture, as eccles states in 12:

7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The Spirit of man [at death] returns unto God [elohim] who gave it ! Gen 1:1

Now compare that with stephens words at his death acts 7:

59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Notice, that He specifically calls upon God and says, Lord Jesus receive my Spirit, this points to Jesus as being God, Elohim of ecc 12:7
​

The reading of the King James Bible at Acts 7:59, which says: "And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit", is a Scripture that has been tampered with, adding the word "God " in order to promote the trinity.

Such Bibles as The Montgomery New Testament, William's New Testament, International Standard Version, Weymouth's New Testament, Young's Bible, New International Version (2011), English Standard Version, Contemporary English Version, New Century Version, Common English Bible, Darby's Translation, Holman Christian Standard Bible, New International Reader's Version, New International Version - UK, and Today's New International Version (2005) do not contain the words "calling upon God " in an attempt to tie it in with the words "Lord Jesus" as a promotion of the trinity.

The Emphatic Diaglott reads: "and they stoned Stephen, as he was invoking and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." The Westcott-Hort Greek interlinear master text literally reads: "And they-stone-cast the Stephen on-calling and saying Master (Lord)! Jesus ! receive the spirit of-me."

Thus, the addition of the word "God" after "on-calling" (Greek epikaleomai) is an attempt to seem together "God" as being Jesus Christ, and shows to what level individuals will stoop (and who call themselves "Christian") to further the wrong teaching that Jesus is God. The word "God" is not in the most ancient Greek manuscripts, such as the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus of the fourth century C.E.

Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament makes this honest admission: “The word God is not in the original, and should not have been in the translation. It is in none of the ancient [manuscripts] or versions.” How did the word “God” come to be inserted into that verse? Scholar Abiel Abbot Livermore called this “an instance of the sectarian biases of the translators.” Most modern translations, therefore, eliminate this spurious reference to God.

 

[Sam21]

Thomas said to Jesus, my LORD AND MY GOD. Jesus accepted the statement of Thomas and did not correct him. The bible says, let all the angels of God worship Him(Christ). One rule of the universe is that only God is to be worshipped. At times people actually worshipped Jesus and He accepted their worship,something reserved for God alone. Jesus forgave sins, something reserved for God alone.
Jesus is NOT the Father, however being the Son of God, He is also God.

 

[savedbygrace57]

nadab:

The reading of the King James Bible at Acts 7:59, which says: "And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit", is a Scripture that has been tampered with,

So if you cant beat it, cut it out the bible..

 

[Vic C.]

For those who reject that Jesus is not God :o, how many Saviors do we have?

This isn't even an issue of whether or not there is a Triune God, so lets not make it the issue.

 

[bibleMAN]

The Bible is clear:

"there is but one God, the Father"
- 1 Corinthians 8:6

Jesus said: "for the Father is greater than I" (1 John 14:28)

Note that when Jesus was on earth the trinity was NOT taught at all.. In fact it only become doctrine over 300 years AFTER Christ died:

Here is an article about when they decided to make the trinity doctrine, over 300 years after Christ:

First Council of Nicaea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Does that sound Biblical to you? A teaching that was established 325 years after Christ's death, that Christ himself did not teach?

It's kind of like current day denominations.. Yeah.. Jesus died 2000 years ago and his plan was for the "one true" denomination to spring up 1800 YEARS LATER... Not Biblical, simply not Biblical.

PS: I believe that people of both sides will be "saved." To say someone is or isn't a Christian because they believe a different detail of the scripture to you is absurd. If we honestly believe in our hearts what Jesus did and we repent of our sin, we can be saved. Noone knows the hearts of man except God, He is the only true judge.

 

[nadab]

nadab:



So if you cant beat it, cut it out the bible..

You obviously are biased toward the trinity, without regard for what is just and accurate. It is like using a measuring tape that reads 13 inches for a foot instead of twelve, adding the extra inch because of bias. The addition of God to Acts 7:59 is no different than the addition of the spurious words at 1 John 5:7 "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."(King James Bible) Or of the tampered Scripture of 1 Timothy 3:16, that reads according to the King James Bible: "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh."

The word "God" is not in the oldest Greek manuscripts at 1 Timothy 3:16, such as the Codex Sinaiticus, and Codex Vaticanus of the fourth century C.E. and the Alexandrine Codex of the fifth century. These accurately read as "he was manifest in the flesh" or "he who was manifest in the flesh," speaking of Jesus Christ (verse 13).

The Bibles Montgomery New Testament, William's New Testament, International Standard Version, and the American Standard Version all read "he" instead of "God." Bruce M.*Metzger in his Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament concludes: “No uncial (in the first hand) earlier than the eighth or ninth century .*.*. supports θεός [the·os´]; all ancient versions presuppose ος or ο; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century testifies to the reading θεός [the·os´].” Today, most translations concur in omitting any reference to “God” in this text.

In a court proceeding, a judge is there to provide justice (which all judges should do or else be relieved of their duty), allowing the full amount of evidence to be entered so that all the facts may be presented and justice served. However, those who are disinterested in true justice, but are biased, will try to discount any sound evidence or keep it from being presented at all that goes against their viewpoint.

The trinity is not scriptural, for it is well known that it did not become official church doctrine until almost 350 years after the death of Jesus Christ, after the Council of Constantinople in the year 381 C.E. and not accepted even in Spain (actually imposed by the king of the Goths, Reccared) till the sixth century C.E.

 

[Cornelius]

A beautiful piece out of Hebrews , speaking of Jesus as God.

Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels winds, And his ministers a flame a fire:
Heb 1:8 but of the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; Therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee With the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of thy hands:

Jesus laid the foundations of the earth and the heavens are the works of His hands.

This of course is backed up by Pro 8:30 Then I was by him, as a master workman; And I was daily his delight, Rejoicing always before him,
Pro 8:31 Rejoicing in his habitable earth; And my delight was with the sons of men.

 

[Cornelius]

A beautiful piece out of Hebrews , speaking of Jesus as God.

Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels winds, And his ministers a flame a fire:
Heb 1:8 but of the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; Therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee With the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of thy hands:

Jesus laid the foundations of the earth and the heavens are the works of His hands.

This of course is backed up by Pro 8:30 Then I was by him, as a master workman; And I was daily his delight, Rejoicing always before him,
Pro 8:31 Rejoicing in his habitable earth; And my delight was with the sons of men.

Pro 8:35 For whoso findeth me findeth life,..... Jesus said unto her, I am..... life:....Joh 11:25

 

[Free]

The same could be said of your posts in regard to TOS, and that my point of view for many is also a basic tenet of the Christian faith.

This merely begs the question of whether or not people who don't accept Christ as the God-man are even Christians to begin with. I have historical, orthodox Christianity on my side.

The Trinity is not scriptural, nowhere in the bible does it say 'trinity'. It is a false doctrine.

That the word "Trinity" isn't in the Bible is irrelevant. It neither means the doctrine is false nor that it isn't in the Bible.

If God wanted us to believe in the Trinity He would have stated the doctrine clearly.

It is there.

It actually has pagan roots that go back to babylon and its Christian use is a product of Constantine and the THE NICAEAN CREED
Constantine merged many pagan beleifs with christianity to make it more acceptable to pagans.

It is a logical fallacy to conclude that the Trinity is pagan simply because there are triune pagan deities.

For more details ...

Didn't take long to see that the person who wrote that page really doesn't know what the doctrine of the Trinity is:

"Each of these persons is God. Christ is his own father and his own son. The Holy Ghost is neither father nor son, but both. "

That is Oneness theology, not Trinitarian.


However,

On to what Vic said:

"This isn't even an issue of whether or not there is a Triune God, so lets not make it the issue. "

Seeing as how the deity of Christ is foundational to the doctrine of the Trinity, it will tie-in without having to discuss the Trinity itself.

 

[zionwarrior]

A beautiful piece out of Hebrews , speaking of Jesus as God.

Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels winds, And his ministers a flame a fire:
Heb 1:8 but of the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; Therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee With the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of thy hands:

Jesus laid the foundations of the earth and the heavens are the works of His hands.

This of course is backed up by Pro 8:30 Then I was by him, as a master workman; And I was daily his delight, Rejoicing always before him,
Pro 8:31 Rejoicing in his habitable earth; And my delight was with the sons of men.

I have pointed this out previously, about how others have been referred to as god and how the confusion arises.

Hebrews 1:8 is a quotation from Psalm 45:6. In this Psalm the Hebrew word "elohim" is translated "God". The word "elohim" is used of Moses relationship with Pharaoh: "And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god {elohim} to Pharaoh". (Exod. 7:1). It also is used of the judges of Israel. (Psa. 82:6 cf. John 10:34; Exod. 22:9, 28). Persons who are divinely appointed and made strong by Yahweh are referred to as "God", but this does not imply they are persons within the Godhead.

 

[zionwarrior]

Thomas said to Jesus, my LORD AND MY GOD. Jesus accepted the statement of Thomas and did not correct him. The bible says, let all the angels of God worship Him(Christ). One rule of the universe is that only God is to be worshipped. At times people actually worshipped Jesus and He accepted their worship,something reserved for God alone. Jesus forgave sins, something reserved for God alone.
Jesus is NOT the Father, however being the Son of God, He is also God.

THEOS is quite general in its application in Scripture, and the fact that it is occasionally used of Jesus should not be taken as proof that he was God.

 

[zionwarrior]

Cant we put this one to bed and agree that even though Jesus is referred to as god in scripture, it can be explained by miss translation, or at least admit it is a possibility ?

I ask trinitarians to quote me their top 3 scriptures that show Jesus is God please ...

 

[Free]

Cant we put this one to bed and agree that even though Jesus is referred to as god in scripture, it can be explained by miss translation, or at least admit it is a possibility ?

I ask trinitarians to quote me their top 3 scriptures that show Jesus is God please ...

This is really the problem with so many theological discussions in a forum setting. Too many people think it is a matter of showing a bunch of passages and then someone wins and someone loses. It's never a matter of just posting the "top 3 scriptures." A proper discussion of the deity of Christ involves discussing everything the Bible states--from cover to cover--about the Messiah and God's plan for salvation and the redemption of creation.

Since you admit "Jesus is referred to as god in scripture," why must it be a mistranslation? Why cannot it also be the very likely possibility that when Scripture refers to Jesus as God, it really means that he is, in fact, God?

 

[zionwarrior]

This is really the problem with so many theological discussions in a forum setting. Too many people think it is a matter of showing a bunch of passages and then someone wins and someone loses. It's never a matter of just posting the "top 3 scriptures." A proper discussion of the deity of Christ involves discussing everything the Bible states--from cover to cover--about the Messiah and God's plan for salvation and the redemption of creation.

Since you admit "Jesus is referred to as god in scripture," why must it be a mistranslation? Why cannot it also be the very likely possibility that when Scripture refers to Jesus as God, it really means that he is, in fact, God?

Thats god with a lowercase 'd'
And as I have said several times, it has been used for others in the bible. god is how it translates to english but had a different meaning in the origonal texts.

 

[zionwarrior]

A deity[1] is a recognised preternatural or supernatural immortal being, who may be thought of as holy, divine, or sacred, held in high regard, and respected by believers, often religiously referred to as a god.

I dont believe it is a matter of debating the deity of Jesus.
I don't dismiss the fact that Jesus may have always existed, but that doesn't make him God. The Bible tells us very clearly that there is only one God, The Father.

Our minds cannot begin to understand someone or something that has always existed. We add a timeline to everything to try to quantify the meaning of time.
We know thats time to God is very different to our concept of time.

The topic is 'Is Jesus really God' , its not a question of his deity, as a deity by defenition is not 'GOD'.

 

[savedbygrace57]

nad

You obviously are biased toward the trinity, without regard for what is just and accurate

Removing a text from the bible is not going to help, you know that don't you ?

 

[Asyncritus]

Can someone pretty puh-leee-ze explain the meaning of:

"When all things are subjected to him [= the Son], then the Son himself will also be subjected

to him [= God] who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all"

1 Cor 15. 28

Thanks very much in advance...
​

 

[zionwarrior]

Can someone pretty puh-leee-ze explain the meaning of:

"When all things are subjected to him [= the Son], then the Son himself will also be subjected

to him [= God] who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all"

1 Cor 15. 28

Thanks very much in advance...
​

That is in relation to where Jesus takes control of the world, his Father hands him control, at the second coming. And over time he brings the world into submission to himself. Once the world is in submission to Jesus, he then hands its control back to his Father and then the Father becomes the ruling authority of both Jesus and the world. Basically Jesus handing back his earthly authority. And I believe at this point we no longer will need Jesus to act as our mediator between us and God. (God may be all in all)

1 Corinthians 15:28

Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

This scripture is another that proves that Jesus is not God.

 

[Free]

A deity[1] is a recognised preternatural or supernatural immortal being, who may be thought of as holy, divine, or sacred, held in high regard, and respected by believers, often religiously referred to as a god.

I dont believe it is a matter of debating the deity of Jesus.
I don't dismiss the fact that Jesus may have always existed, but that doesn't make him God. The Bible tells us very clearly that there is only one God, The Father.

Our minds cannot begin to understand someone or something that has always existed. We add a timeline to everything to try to quantify the meaning of time.
We know thats time to God is very different to our concept of time.

The topic is 'Is Jesus really God' , its not a question of his deity, as a deity by defenition is not 'GOD'.

"Deity," by definition--"often religiously referred to as a god"--can only mean God since the Christian religion, just like Judaism from which it came, is monotheistic. You are promoting polytheism, which is a grave error. So, if Jesus is deity, in Christianity it means he is God. It cannot mean anything else.

Also, since Jesus indeed has always existed, and since eternal preexistence is an attribute of God alone, Jesus is therefore God. There is no other conclusion once one states that Jesus has always existed.

I am seeing some pretty big inconsistencies in your position which always happens when one denies that Jesus is God.