Is physical pain experienced in hell?

[Mountain Man]

No.it is the successful rendering of what the bible says, there is no reason to believe in the bliss of heaven and not the torment of Hell....as far as "brotherly discourse" is concerned I am interested in only what the bible says on the matter and nothing else. The bible describes and eternal Heaven and an Eternal Hell, there is no discourse, the matter is settled.

At the risk of being accused of evil work

this is the work of Satan who in the garden ask Eve if God realy meant what he said

, I have to ask you:
What exactly is the "It" that is your successful rendering of what the Bible says. The "it" is exactly what Scripture within your two posts that you’ve successfully render? I didn’t see any Scripture that you posted then exposited or rendered. I could have missed it, however, so please explain further.

In regard to Hell how about Mark 9/43-44....and in regard to Heaven lets go with 1Thess 4/17 these are two among many...no reason to believe one and not the other

 

[chessman]

In regard to Hell how about Mark 9/43-44....and in regard to Heaven lets go with 1Thess 4/17 these are two among many...no reason to believe one and not the other

I don't know of any Christians that debate or are asked to defend the Scriptures that teach Heaven is eternal. Also, that is not part of the OP question. As for Mark 9
"It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out."
Yep, that's clear enough. 1. Hell's fire never goes out. 2. It would be better to be one handed than two , if the other hand were causing you to sin (which of course is hyperbole in the sense that God doesn't really mean for us to cut off body parts but rather know sin is a big deal).

But how does 1. and 2. render that the people are eternally sensing pain in Hell? Literally rendering this text simply teaches the fire is eternal, not the pain or the people. The OP question is eternal pain of people, not Satan or the "fire" itself. Also, Mark is not Paul. Did you have another Scripture you meant with your successful rendering of eternal punishment for people in Hell?

 

[JLB]

I have always heard that the people that go to hell will experience actual physical pain like being burned alive constantly forever. But someone once told me that this is not true. They said imagine if your own child rebelled and disobeyed you their whole life and never changed. Would you even take a lighter and make them hold their arm out and burn them for even a few seconds to punish them? Then they said well, it is the same for us as we are God's children and hell is separation from God and most likely mental/emotional pain.
I am not saying I believe this because I know God doesn't send us to hell anyway. We send our selves there. But on the other hand God created everything.
This scares me and makes me feel the urgency to witness to as many people as possible.

Wailing and gnashing of teeth doesn't sound like sounds of pleasure.


JLB

 

[Mountain Man]

In regard to Hell how about Mark 9/43-44....and in regard to Heaven lets go with 1Thess 4/17 these are two among many...no reason to believe one and not the other

I don't know of any Christians that debate or are asked to defend the Scriptures that teach Heaven is eternal. Also, that not part of the OP question. As for Mark 9
"It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out."
Yep, that's clear enough. 1. Hell's fire never goes out. 2. It would be better to be one handed than two , if the other hand were causing you to sin (which of course is hyperbole in the sense that God doesn't really mean for us to cut off body parts but rather know sin is a big deal.

But how does 1. And 2. render that the people are eternally sensing pain in Hell? Literally rendering this text simply teaches the fire is eternal, not the pain or the people. The OP question is eternal pain of people, not Satan or the "fire" itself. Also, Mark is not Paul. Did you have another Scripture you meant with your successful rendering of eternal punishment for people in Hell?

I don't realy care what you choose to believe,it is no concern of mine...every Christian forum I have ever seen always has your type in it somewhere..."Christians" that don't believe in Hell "Christians" that don't believe in the trinity "Christians" that don't believe Jesus is God "Christians" that don't believe sin is sin and cherry picking the bible to no end.......believe what you want,i couidn't care less.

 

[Classik]

I was just thinking about this topic....the title precisely. Is 'physical' possible in a 'spiritual' place.

Physical pain in a spiritual place.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I was just thinking about this topic....the title precisely. Is 'physical' possible in a 'spiritual' place.

Physical pain in a spiritual place.

Where do you get the idea it is totally a spiritual place? Resurrected beings with physical bodies are cast into hell. God is able to destroy both soul AND body in Hell. (Matthew 10:28)

 

[chessman]

I was just trying to learn something (potentially), not argue with you.

...every Christian forum I have ever seen always has your type in it somewhere..."

People that indicate they know my “type†through the few forum posts I’ve made is like, to use your words,

to elevate one's self above God

when the plain fact is you don’t even know my name, much less my “type†or my level of Biblical knowledge or my regard for its Truth on any given subject. In this case eternal punishment for people in Hell.

believe what you want,i couidn't care less.

Evidently (logically speaking), you could have cared less by simply not responding to my question. But I’m glad you did respond with the Mark 9 passage to my question of where you find eternal punishment for people in Hell within Paul’s writings. It would have been a more Christian/Biblical response to leave off the part insinuating I don’t believe in Hell or the Trinity or sin, but I’m a big boy. No sweat.

don't believe in Hell "Christians" that don't believe in the trinity "Christians" that don't believe Jesus is God "Christians" that don't believe sin

Where the Bible teaches personal activities that are sinful, I do believe they are sinful per God’s Word (not yours). For example.

Exodus 23:1 23 “You shall not spread a false report. You shall not join hands with a wicked man to be a malicious witness.

Leviticus 19:16 16 You shall not go around as a slanderer among your people, and you shall not stand up against the life of your neighbor: I am the Lord.
​

Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
​

Or the way you put Christians in quotes, as If I only call myself a Crhistian but am not really one. Wow, that's really Godly of you.


The whole point of a Christian Apologetics and Theology forum should be to discuss the Scriptural defense for various doctrines and teachings. In this case, eternal punishment (physical pain) of people in Hell? (yes or no).
The thread is left without Biblical Justification in Paul (or the many other Scriptures you say are available) for answering the OP questions with, Yes. But we certainly know what you think about me.

 

[Classik]

I was just thinking about this topic....the title precisely. Is 'physical' possible in a 'spiritual' place.

Physical pain in a spiritual place.

Where do you get the idea it is totally a spiritual place? Resurrected beings with physical bodies are cast into hell. God is able to destroy both soul AND body in Hell. (Matthew 10:28)

Dunno. One things is certain: HE alone can destroy the spirit.

 

[John 8:32]

I always find this thought interesting, there is no fear of death because there is no literal punishment attached to sin. Hmmm, being burned to death in the lake of fire is pretty scary to me. The most gruesome death I can imagine is being burned to death and that is nothing to fear?

Some people die that way now in fires and it is tragic but I think to only experience this same kind of agony briefly as you get thrown into the Lake of Fire and then it's over is mistaken.

"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever," (Rev. 20:10).

Does this mean that only the devil, the anti-Christ and the false prophet get tomented for all eternity and all other unbelievers simply cease to exist?

I think all unbelievers suffer the same fate as these three.

What you or I think is entirely inconsequential. What matters is what God says...

The incorrigibly wicked are burned to death. Death for all eternity with no hope of ever living again. Burned to ashes...

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

 

[WIP]

Not necessarily pointing at the previous poster but let's keep our comments on the topic of the thread and not each other. This is a forum for digging into the truth of scripture not judging each other. Thank you.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

In regard to Hell how about Mark 9/43-44....and in regard to Heaven lets go with 1Thess 4/17 these are two among many...no reason to believe one and not the other

What's interesting is that v.44 of Mark 9 that you cite here is actually not found in the most reliable manuscripts that we have such as the Codex Vaticanus or the Codex Sinaiticus, it is quite possible this is an interpolation and Jesus never meant to make a connection of Gehenna to Isaiah 66:24.

Also, what is your conception of what Heaven is?

 

[berk60]

Also, I would like to hear what you have to say in response to Revelation 20:10, of course my argument is primarily from Scripture and there is no passage I will shy away from.

I believe that Revelation 20:10 is stating that Lucifer, the anti-Christ and the world religious leader known in the Bible as the False Prophet will be thrown into the Lake of Fire and shall be suffering and be in agony physically for all eternity for their unforgiven sin against God. Show me in scripture that proves this particular verse says otherwise so I can see where you are basing your belief on. I don't understand what is so wrong with justice being served for sin in eternal punishment. Maybe I'm missing something in God's truth but I feel that hell is forever and it's purpose will be to punish the sinner forever.

 

[John 8:32]

Also, I would like to hear what you have to say in response to Revelation 20:10, of course my argument is primarily from Scripture and there is no passage I will shy away from.

I believe that Revelation 20:10 is stating that Lucifer, the anti-Christ and the world religious leader known in the Bible as the False Prophet will be thrown into the Lake of Fire and shall be suffering and be in agony physically for all eternity for their unforgiven sin against God. Show me in scripture that proves this particular verse says otherwise so I can see where you are basing your belief on. I don't understand what is so wrong with justice being served for sin in eternal punishment. Maybe I'm missing something in God's truth but I feel that hell is forever and it's purpose will be to punish the sinner forever.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

In the KJV, "are" is in italics and I won't beat that into the ground...

Dr. Bullinger's...

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also the beast and the false prophet were cast, and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


New International Version (©2011)
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

English Standard Version (©2001)
and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

International Standard Version (©2012)
and the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were. They will be tortured day and night forever and ever.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
The devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were also thrown. They will be tortured day and night forever and ever.

Weymouth New Testament
and the Devil, who had been leading them astray, was thrown into the Lake of fire and sulphur where the Wild Beast and the false Prophet were, and day and night they will suffer torture until the Ages of the Ages.

Notice these translations insert the word "were". The past tense does agree with many other scriptures that say that the reward of the wicked is death, not life in eternal torment.

There is a difference between eternal punishMENT and eternal punishING.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Everlasting punishment is here the opposite of eternal life, just as in...

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

perish:

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Rom 6:23 For the rations of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

death:

G2288
θάνατος
thanatos
than'-at-os
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

destroy:

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

 

[berk60]

English Standard Version (©2001) and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Notice these translations insert the word "were". The past tense does agree with many other scriptures that say that the reward of the wicked is death, not life in eternal torment.

It seems that you have a concern that God would actually punish someone physically for eternity. I know that when I think that we are all destine for Hell and everything that it entails and Jesus has provided the way to be saved from it, I am so thankful that He has called me to repentance. I realize that the consequence for my sin requires hell and the punishment that goes along with it. To think that the consequence of my sin is being resurrected and then destroyed out of existence forever seems to lessen the punishment for sin in my view.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

It seems that you have a concern that God would actually punish someone physically for eternity. I know that when I think that we are all destine for Hell and everything that it entails and Jesus has provided the way to be saved from it, I am so thankful that He has called me to repentance. I realize that the consequence for my sin requires hell and the punishment that goes along with it. To think that the consequence of my sin is being resurrected and then destroyed out of existence forever seems to lessen the punishment for sin in my view.

Why do you make these statements about him? His argument like mine against your view is from Scripture, not our deep emotions which attempt to twist the text.

I gave you a detailed argument for issues with literally interpreting Revelation 20:10 and you did not offer a response to.

Indeed you keep making the argument that it isn't likely because it's "less of a punishment for sin in your view." That's the wrong way to go about it, the correct question rather is this: What is the Just punishment for sin ascribed consistently throughout Scripture, what is sin worthy of?

 

[chessman]

To think that the consequence of my sin is being resurrected and then destroyed out of existence forever seems to lessen the punishment for sin in my view.

I don't think your view is wacko or anything like that. You may in fact hold to the majority/tradition view. But the real question is, is that view truthful to what Scripture actually teaches us about God's punishment for the sins. A view of eternal punishING for people is found where in Scripture? The post above does, at a minimum, show it's not as plain as some people's think. I find this subject very interesting, regardless. When we study God's Word, it's always good stuff. I find it very often corrects my personal views. I'm open to my view being wrong.

 

[berk60]

I gave you a detailed argument for issues with literally interpreting Revelation 20:10 and you did not offer a response to.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also the beast and the false prophet were cast, and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Here's my response to Rev 20:10. I see the, "they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever" to mean those in the Lake of Fire will continually be tormented for all eternity. Now if they were destroyed out of existence then they wouldn't be anybody to torment.

I apologize if I have insulted anyone here in my belief as punishment for sin being real and forever but it's what I believe the Bible is saying.

 

[John 8:32]

To think that the consequence of my sin is being resurrected and then destroyed out of existence forever seems to lessen the punishment for sin in my view.

I don't think your view is wacko or anything like that. You may in fact hold to the majority/tradition view. But the real question is, is that view truthful to what Scripture actually teaches us about God's punishment for the sins. A view of eternal punishING for people is found where in Scripture? The post above does, at a minimum, show it's not as plain as some people's think. I find this subject very interesting, regardless. When we study God's Word, it's always good stuff. I find it very often corrects my personal views. I'm open to my view being wrong.

Excellent thinking here!

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for (1.)doctrine, for (2.)reproof, for (3.)correction, for (4.)instruction in righteousness:

1.) Doctrine:

G1319
διδασκαλία
didaskalia
did-as-kal-ee'-ah
From G1320; instruction (the function or the information): - doctrine, learning, teaching.

2.) Reproof:

G1650
ἔλεγχος
elegchos
el'-eng-khos
From G1651; proof, conviction: - evidence, reproof.

3.) Correction:

G1882
ἐπανόρθωσις
epanorthōsis
ep-an-or'-tho-sis
From a compound of G1909 and G461; a straightening up again, that is, (figuratively) rectification (reformation): - correction.

4.) Instruction in Righteousness:

Instruction:

G3809
παιδεία
paideia
pahee-di'-ah
From G3811; tutorage, that is, education or training; by implication disciplinary correction: - chastening, chastisement, instruction, nurture.

Righteouness:

G1343
δικαιοσύνη
dikaiosunē
dik-ah-yos-oo'-nay
From G1342; equity (of character or act); specifically (Christian) justification: - righteousness.

 

[John 8:32]

I gave you a detailed argument for issues with literally interpreting Revelation 20:10 and you did not offer a response to.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also the beast and the false prophet were cast, and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Here's my response to Rev 20:10. I see the, "they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever" to mean those in the Lake of Fire will continually be tormented for all eternity. Now if they were destroyed out of existence then they wouldn't be anybody to torment.

I apologize if I have insulted anyone here in my belief as punishment for sin being real and forever but it's what I believe the Bible is saying.

First of all, no need for apology, we see this differently is all. Just curious as to what translation you are using, the KJV has it...

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Now the comma'd portion is a prenthetical thought and we can remove it and the sentence maintains it meaning. (Thank you Mrs. Schmidle, I haven't forgotten the English lessons.) Anyhoo...

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Indicates it is the Devil that will be tormented. Jude adds to that...

Jud 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Eternal punishing for the Devil and his minions.

NKJV has it...

Rev 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[a] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Again, are is in italics.

Anyhoo, we do not agree, doesn't mean we are disagreeable.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also the beast and the false prophet were cast, and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Here's my response to Rev 20:10. I see the, "they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever" to mean those in the Lake of Fire will continually be tormented for all eternity. Now if they were destroyed out of existence then they wouldn't be anybody to torment.

I apologize if I have insulted anyone here in my belief as punishment for sin being real and forever but it's what I believe the Bible is saying.

Hi berk60,

I'm sorry but this is not a response to my argument but simply a reaffirmation of a literal interpretation. I highly recommend that you reread my post.

I believe that your analysis fails to take into account the genre, this is apocalyptic literature and while it might suffice in a discourse like Paul's to say, "look the text says they are tormented for all eternity," this will not suffice in Revelation.

We do great damage to the text if we do not use proper hermeneutical principles and to not pick and choose what we see as literal or metaphorical, but understand that consistently this book up to this point has been largely metaphorical. To all of the sudden turn to literal depictions of punishment would indeed be strange.

Perhaps this imagery has been implemented at other times in this book and other apocalyptic literature?

Once more they cried out, “Hallelujah! The smoke from her goes up forever and ever.” Revelation 19:3(ESV)

Here in v.3 we find that great multitude in heaven is proclaiming that "her" the whore of Babylon had been defeated and destroyed, and that, "the smoke from her goes up forever and ever." Or also, in Chapter 18 we see in v.7,10,15 her punishment being described as torment. The question is then raised, how is the whore of Babylon, who is not an individual person, but more likely a place tormented? You see this is graphic imagery, that is common throughout apocalyptic literature. You will find that the imagery used to describe the punishment of Satan, the Beast, those with the mark, and of course the whore of Babylon, reflects imagery used to describe the destruction of Edom.

For the LORD has a day of vengeance,
a year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
And the streams of Edomb shall be turned into pitch,
and her soil into sulfur;
her land shall become burning pitch.
Night and day it shall not be quenched;
its smoke shall go up forever.
From generation to generation it shall lie waste;
none shall pass through it forever and ever. Isaiah 34:8-10

Compare the language employed here with the language used in Revelation and you will find remarkable similarities, and we know for a fact that Edom does not burn anymore, smoke no longer rises, and it is not entirely waste... indeed there is a highway that goes right through it now.

Given what I have just demonstrated, you have to think about how we read literature of this sort, are we honoring the text and the genre as it was written if we simply just say, "just look at what the text says.. I rest my case." (not saying you're saying this, others have).

This isn't a debate about who is wrong or right, it is a discussion on what has God really said, and what did he really mean?

I hope you receive this post well, for I believe the thought that God sustains beings in perpetual torment forever and ever to not only be contrary to revealed Scripture on the matter.. and also the revealed character of God in his goodness, justice, love and mercy.

Blessings in Christ,
Servant of Jesus