Is physical pain experienced in hell?

[berk60]

Rev 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[a] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

I see what you are saying. The devil is tormented forever and not the AC and the FP are destroyed. At this time in Rev. 20:10 the AC and the FB are still not destroyed and are cast in the Lake of Fire without facing the Great White Throne judgement. When are they destroyed?

 

[Guest]

Christians actually do God a service by warning people of hell, but unfortunately people are still stuck on the things of this world to understand what were preaching, the seriousness of it.

 

[John 8:32]

Rev 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[a] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

I see what you are saying. The devil is tormented forever and not the AC and the FP are destroyed. At this time in Rev. 20:10 the AC and the FB are still not destroyed and are cast in the Lake of Fire without facing the Great White Throne judgement. When are they destroyed?

Apparently, the first punitive act that Christ performs at His return is destroying the Beast and the False Prophet....

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

This is the...

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Also, incorrectly known as Armageddon. Har Megiddo is the staging area, but the actual battle occurs in the Valley of Jehoshaphat.

Joe 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Joe 3:12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
Joe 3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

Where else do we read this?

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Isa 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Notice that the remnant are killed by the sword, but not cast into the Gehenna at this time. Whether they be incorrigibly wicked or just deceived by the Beast and False Prophet is not for our determination, Christ is the Judge. But the time of the Lake of Fire is after the Millenium, after the Great White Throne Judgment at the time of the punishment of the wicked...

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[John 8:32]

Just a clarifier here...

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

This occurs at the return of Christ, but prior to the Millenium. The Beast and False Prophet are destroyed and the Devil is incarcerated, then comes the glorious 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth.

 

[berk60]

Christians actually do God a service by warning people of hell, but unfortunately people are still stuck on the things of this world to understand what were preaching, the seriousness of it.

That's what I think and that's why suffering the torments of hell forever vs. destroyed instantly makes a difference in what we believe.

 

[berk60]

This occurs at the return of Christ, but prior to the Millenium. The Beast and False Prophet are destroyed and the Devil is incarcerated, then comes the glorious 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth.

Why isn't the devil destroyed also since there is no further use for him?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

That's what I think and that's why suffering the torments of hell forever vs. destroyed instantly makes a difference in what we believe.

I have several issues with this...

1. What matters is not whether we tell them the worst possible punishment.. or a lesser one, what matters is that we tell people the TRUTH! If God's word does not in fact teach what you are saying then it is simply manipulating them via their fears in order to make a decision.

2. Who said they're destroyed instantly? I think you need to listen a little more closely to what we are saying before you make presumptions and straw-men.

3. Where in Acts do the Apostles go around in their preaching talking about eternal torment in hell if they don't repent, or for that matter the Old Testament? This model for how you would want to preach this doctrine, was never preached in the Bible.

4. In fact I know more people who refuse to be Christians on account of this doctrine than ANY OTHER doctrine there is, because you see the bigger issue is not on how we evangelize. The big issue is the CHARACTER OF GOD, and do we worship and serve a God who will be angry forever and torment and punish some of those near and dear to us actively for all eternity. Will God torment forever people who never have heard the name of Jesus?

You see, people believe (and rightly so) that they believe to die for what they have done, this is true for all humanity and that is what makes the Cross relevant. We deserve to die, to be punished.. but he took our punishment of death and defeated the grave so that whoever believes in him might not PERISH (to be destroyed) but have eternal life. This doctrine makes the gospel more hopeful and more powerful and indeed more Biblical with the Resurrection being the pinnacle of our salvation... Salvation from DEATH!

 

[Guest]

Christians actually do God a service by warning people of hell, but unfortunately people are still stuck on the things of this world to understand what were preaching, the seriousness of it.

That's what I think and that's why suffering the torments of hell forever vs. destroyed instantly makes a difference in what we believe.

Yes destroyed is not annihilation according to scripture. For example, destroyed means you keep spending your money on gambling, you're gonna go broke and destroy your life. You keep having sex before marriage, you're gonna impregnate the wrong woman and destroy your life. If you murder someone, you destroy your life and you go to prison. Prison is like hell, you destroy your life but you don't die. The only difference is that you're surrounded my immates in prison on earth, but in hell you're surrounded by sinners, devils, satan and fire. Sin is prison, and sin is hell. Blessings.

 

[Mountain Man]

In regard to Hell how about Mark 9/43-44....and in regard to Heaven lets go with 1Thess 4/17 these are two among many...no reason to believe one and not the other

What's interesting is that v.44 of Mark 9 that you cite here is actually not found in the most reliable manuscripts that we have such as the Codex Vaticanus or the Codex Sinaiticus, it is quite possible this is an interpolation and Jesus never meant to make a connection of Gehenna to Isaiah 66:24.

Also, what is your conception of what Heaven is?

What is the foundation or reason for believing anything that is in the bible if the manuscripts are not "reliable"? who was alive 2,3 or 5,000 years ago when it was written ? who decides what is and is not reliable ? if God cannot preserve his word then Heaven means no more then Hell does except that people like the idea of Heaven and don't like the idea of Hell so they promote one over the other.....the whole faith falls flat on its face based on people's desire to keep what they like and discard the rest as if they were god instead of God being God.

 

[berk60]

Yes destroyed is not annihilation according to scripture. For example, destroyed means you keep spending your money on gambling, you're gonna go broke and destroy your life. You keep having sex before marriage, you're gonna impregnate the wrong woman and destroy your life. If you murder someone, you destroy your life and you go to prison. Prison is like hell, you destroy your life but you don't die. The only difference is that you're surrounded my immates in prison on earth, but in hell you're surrounded by sinners, devils, satan and fire. Sin is prison, and sin is hell. Blessings.

So you believe that unbelievers do not cease to exist but continue to exist after judgement in the Lake of Fire?

 

[Guest]

Yes destroyed is not annihilation according to scripture. For example, destroyed means you keep spending your money on gambling, you're gonna go broke and destroy your life. You keep having sex before marriage, you're gonna impregnate the wrong woman and destroy your life. If you murder someone, you destroy your life and you go to prison. Prison is like hell, you destroy your life but you don't die. The only difference is that you're surrounded my immates in prison on earth, but in hell you're surrounded by sinners, devils, satan and fire. Sin is prison, and sin is hell. Blessings.

So you believe that unbelievers do not cease to exist but continue to exist after judgement in the Lake of Fire?

Yes continue to exist. The fact that scripture plainly does not say cease to exist or gives us that idea should make us wake up. I believe forever and ever means what it means.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Yes destroyed is not annihilation according to scripture. For example, destroyed means you keep spending your money on gambling, you're gonna go broke and destroy your life. You keep having sex before marriage, you're gonna impregnate the wrong woman and destroy your life. If you murder someone, you destroy your life and you go to prison. Prison is like hell, you destroy your life but you don't die. The only difference is that you're surrounded my immates in prison on earth, but in hell you're surrounded by sinners, devils, satan and fire. Sin is prison, and sin is hell. Blessings.

What you've done is appealed for another meaning for this word "destroy" and use examples that you believe support this. What you've failed to do is provide any Scriptures that prove this claim.

What I will do here is show that through the usage of the specific Greek word ἀπολέσαι we can determine that it does in fact mean destroy in the sense that we believe it carries, rather than yours.

Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.” Matthew 2:13(ESV)

The same Greek word that occurs in Matthew 10:28 for the word "to destroy" or ἀπολέσαι is found here, and here are some questions I have for you. Was Herod about to search for the child so he could simply ruin his life? Or was Herod trying to search for the child to KILL the child, to put an end to it's life?

And Jesus said to them, “I ask you, is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to destroy it?” Luke 6:9(ESV)

Note, every translation uses either destroy or kill here.. no ruin. This is demonstrably not the sense you are providing as it is contrasted with saving a life versus destroying it.

for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." And they went on to another village. Luke 9:56(NASB)

This is in the context of where John and James asked Jesus in v.54 if they could ask for fire from heaven to come down and consume the people who rejected Jesus. Jesus rebukes them in v.55 and in v.56 gives the reason for that rebuke, he came to save men's lives not to destroy them as James and John has suggested previously.

And He was teaching daily in the temple; but the chief priests and the scribes and the leading men among the people were trying to destroy Him, Luke 19:47(NASB)

Were the chief priests and scribes just trying to ruin his life? Or were they trying to kill Jesus, to end his life?

These are just a few examples of the word that betrays your description of what the word "destroy" means in the Bible. Destruction is the end of life.. always.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

What is the foundation or reason for believing anything that is in the bible if the manuscripts are not "reliable"?

We do not have the original autographs, but we do have thousands of manuscripts that we can evaluate differences and variations and in the texts and come to a very accurate representation of the original text.

who was alive 2,3 or 5,000 years ago when it was written ? who decides what is and is not reliable ?

Well generally there are many principles for deciding whether or not something is reliable.

1. Is it reflected in the early writing of the Church Fathers?
2. Is it in the earlier and more comprehensive manuscripts, the greatest of these are the Great Unical Codices. These are the most earliest and most complete manuscripts we have.
3. Is this text consistent with the context?
4. Is this text consistent with the author's style?

There is probably more I could say, but it definitely takes some research and knowledge on the matter, at least to not be ignorant of the more major instances such as Mark 9. Simply reading a Bible will let you know that it's not contained any many manuscripts.

if God cannot preserve his word then Heaven means no more then Hell does except that people like the idea of Heaven and don't like the idea of Hell so they promote one over the other.....the whole faith falls flat on its face based on people's desire to keep what they like and discard the rest as if they were god instead of God being God.

I believe God's Word has been preserved to be extremely accurate (and I don't say this ignorantly or dogmatically), though I believe there may perhaps be interpolations (additions not made by the author) we should be hesitant to build doctrine on these texts.

 

[Guest]

Yes destroyed is not annihilation according to scripture. For example, destroyed means you keep spending your money on gambling, you're gonna go broke and destroy your life. You keep having sex before marriage, you're gonna impregnate the wrong woman and destroy your life. If you murder someone, you destroy your life and you go to prison. Prison is like hell, you destroy your life but you don't die. The only difference is that you're surrounded my immates in prison on earth, but in hell you're surrounded by sinners, devils, satan and fire. Sin is prison, and sin is hell. Blessings.

What you've done is appealed for another meaning for this word "destroy" and use examples that you believe support this. What you've failed to do is provide any Scriptures that prove this claim.

Doulos Iesou, blessings. Notice Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. & Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Notice in these scriptures forever and ever and great white throne judgment. Since forever and ever comes before the GWT, I believe the devil, false prophet and beast were cast into the lake fire FIRST, THEN the unbelievers were then cast into the lake of fire forever and ever. OR Rev 20:10 is prophecy predicting the future AFTER Rev 20:11. Either way, you can't be tormented day and night forever and ever if you cease to exist.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. How can everlasting punishment be everlasting if we cease to exist.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Doulos Iesou, blessings. Notice Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. & Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Notice in these scriptures forever and ever and great white throne judgment. Since forever and ever comes before the GWT, I believe the devil, false prophet and beast were cast into the lake fire FIRST, THEN the unbelievers were then cast into the lake of fire forever and ever. OR Rev 20:10 is prophecy predicting the future AFTER Rev 20:11. Either way, you can't be tormented day and night forever and ever if you cease to exist.

I have dealt with this text in detail here:

I believe that your analysis fails to take into account the genre, this is apocalyptic literature and while it might suffice in a discourse like Paul's to say, "look the text says they are tormented for all eternity," this will not suffice in Revelation.

We do great damage to the text if we do not use proper hermeneutical principles and to not pick and choose what we see as literal or metaphorical, but understand that consistently this book up to this point has been largely metaphorical. To all of the sudden turn to literal depictions of punishment would indeed be strange.

Perhaps this imagery has been implemented at other times in this book and other apocalyptic literature?

Once more they cried out, “Hallelujah! The smoke from her goes up forever and ever.” Revelation 19:3(ESV)

Here in v.3 we find that great multitude in heaven is proclaiming that "her" the whore of Babylon had been defeated and destroyed, and that, "the smoke from her goes up forever and ever." Or also, in Chapter 18 we see in v.7,10,15 her punishment being described as torment. The question is then raised, how is the whore of Babylon, who is not an individual person, but more likely a place tormented? You see this is graphic imagery, that is common throughout apocalyptic literature. You will find that the imagery used to describe the punishment of Satan, the Beast, those with the mark, and of course the whore of Babylon, reflects imagery used to describe the destruction of Edom.

For the LORD has a day of vengeance,
a year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
And the streams of Edomb shall be turned into pitch,
and her soil into sulfur;
her land shall become burning pitch.
Night and day it shall not be quenched;
its smoke shall go up forever.
From generation to generation it shall lie waste;
none shall pass through it forever and ever. Isaiah 34:8-10

Compare the language employed here with the language used in Revelation and you will find remarkable similarities, and we know for a fact that Edom does not burn anymore, smoke no longer rises, and it is not entirely waste... indeed there is a highway that goes right through it now.

Given what I have just demonstrated, you have to think about how we read literature of this sort, are we honoring the text and the genre as it was written if we simply just say, "just look at what the text says.. I rest my case." (not saying you're saying this, others have).

This isn't a debate about who is wrong or right, it is a discussion on what has God really said, and what did he really mean?

I hope you receive this post well, for I believe the thought that God sustains beings in perpetual torment forever and ever to not only be contrary to revealed Scripture on the matter.. and also the revealed character of God in his goodness, justice, love and mercy.

Blessings in Christ,
Servant of Jesus

 

[VirginShallConceive]

I have always heard that the people that go to hell will experience actual physical pain like being burned alive constantly forever. But someone once told me that this is not true. They said imagine if your own child rebelled and disobeyed you their whole life and never changed. Would you even take a lighter and make them hold their arm out and burn them for even a few seconds to punish them? Then they said well, it is the same for us as we are God's children and hell is separation from God and most likely mental/emotional pain.
I am not saying I believe this because I know God doesn't send us to hell anyway. We send our selves there. But on the other hand God created everything.
This scares me and makes me feel the urgency to witness to as many people as possible.

Well, if it's any comfort to you, Jeff, I don't buy into the "eternal torture chamber" thing. And better yet, I act like I don't. Everybody does. That's why you never see any frantic preachers running around with the sense of urgency that you mentioned.


Period.

 

[Guest]

[MENTION=96193]Doulos Iesou[/MENTION] but Isaiah 34:8-10 may be using forever and ever as a metaphor yes but it's talking about places on this earth, it's not talking about the lake of fire. The lake of fire exists after judgment day in the afterlife. Also, how are you dealing with Matthew 25:46.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

[MENTION=96193]Doulos Iesou[/MENTION] but Isaiah 34:8-10 may be using forever and ever as a metaphor yes but it's talking about places on this earth, it's not talking about the lake of fire. The lake of fire exists after judgment day in the afterlife. Also, how are you dealing with Matthew 25:46.

Where is Gehenna urk? And this is the exact double standard that I am talking about, it's a metaphor in one place and in the other it's literal..

Or how about the Whore of Babylon being tormented and burning forever as well? It's a metaphor there.. except when it supports the dogma of eternal torment in hell..

 

[VirginShallConceive]

@Doulos Iesou but Isaiah 34:8-10 may be using forever and ever as a metaphor yes but it's talking about places on this earth, it's not talking about the lake of fire. The lake of fire exists after judgment day in the afterlife. Also, how are you dealing with Matthew 25:46.

Where is Gehenna urk? And this is the exact double standard that I am talking about, it's a metaphor in one place and in the other it's literal..

Or how about the Whore of Babylon being tormented and burning forever as well? It's a metaphor there.. except when it supports the dogma of eternal torment in hell..

 

[Guest]

@Doulos Iesou but Isaiah 34:8-10 may be using forever and ever as a metaphor yes but it's talking about places on this earth, it's not talking about the lake of fire. The lake of fire exists after judgment day in the afterlife. Also, how are you dealing with Matthew 25:46.

Where is Gehenna urk? And this is the exact double standard that I am talking about, it's a metaphor in one place and in the other it's literal..

Or how about the Whore of Babylon being tormented and burning forever as well? It's a metaphor there.. except when it supports the dogma of eternal torment in hell..

Blessings. So according to you, Matthew and Revelation only say eternal and forever and ever as a metaphor. Ok, if this is true, then you're also saying that when unbelievers die there will be NO hell. Or if you believe there is a hell in the afterlife, how long are the unrighteous there for, 1 Day? 1 Week? or is it 28 days in rehab, lol. Does the Bible say they will be in hell for 28 days then burn up and cease to exist. What is scripture telling you about how long they will be in hell, specifically in the afterlife. Is the Bible uncertain or does God give it to you straight.