Is poverty man-made?

[Kidron]

That's it.

Yup. But try to convince people that it's rigged and they will tell you that it is capitalism.

The less you want, the less you are owned.

 

[Corn Pop]

Its definately man made. Its how the monetry system and trade has been created.

Naturally, everyone would just live off the land what God provided. Free food and water for all and just chill out in harmony everyone loving life and looking after and caring each other having a good time.

Sadely, a created value has been placed on people that created greed and power. Its the devils work.

 

[john darling]

I agree, it's made.
I've heard it said that world hunger could be solved by the same cost America spends on garbage bags. Yet we spend billions on war machines. Seems we are more interested in keeping our entitlements than making the world a better place for everyone

Thanks for sharing these comments, Steve. That's quite interesting about the trash bags thing. I'd not heard that before but I would no be surprised if it turned out to be accurate.

 

[john darling]

So, you are saying that because you are breathing, the world owes you prosperity.?

Hi Kidron. I think you may have misunderstood my meaning. I'm suggesting that there are enough resources in the world for all of us to live quite comfortably, but that doing so will take a lot of thought and consideration on how to best share those resources in a fair and just way.

What about a job?

From what I can see, Jesus was fairly clear as to what our job, as Christians, should be (Matthew 6:33). I think there are many ways to act on this job but all those various ways still need to be consistent with the overall values of Heaven.

What about earning a living?

I never quite thought carefully about the "earn a living" thing until a friend asked me, "do we really need to earn the right to live? Didn't God already give us life"? This is especially true when we relate it to the concept of working for money. In other words, at what point do we decide that people have not earned the right to live? How much money do they need to earn for us to believe their life still has value and, perhaps most importantly, do we believe they deserve to die if they don't use their time demanding payment for their help?r

What about equipping yourself to be successful?

What is your understanding of being successful and can you compare that to any scriptural teaching from Jesus?

What about making right decisions in how you use your money?

Can you give a few examples of what you think are right and wrong ways to use money?

 

[john darling]

I believe it comes from the greed of the rich. Do you realize that the 400 richest Americans have more money than the poorest 150,000,000 Americans combined?

No, I didn't realize that, but again, I'm not particularly surprised by it.

Here is how it works: The rich, through all sorts of subtle and not so subtle means, "rig the game" against the poor, effectively keeping them stuck in poverty.

That's interesting. Would you mind giving a few examples to illustrate the point?

 

[john darling]

Poverty is a relative concept, isn't it? By historical standards the poor in America live in incredible wealth and comfort. So, is poverty man made? No, poverty is the natural state of man not in community. A man by himself will spend every waking moment trying to find food to eat and a warm, dry place to seep safely. It's only in community (man-made) that we can concentrate on specialized tasks and trade with others for the benefit of all.

Hi Mike. Thanks for sharing these thoughts. I agree with your assessment that even the poor in America (generally speaking) are much wealthier than the poor in many other countries. It's an important point to get the right perspective so I'm glad you mentioned that.

I'm curious what you mean by community and how you see that making a difference. Could you please elaborate a bit more on that?

 

[john darling]

There's is no scripture,oy vey

Thanks for making this point, Jason. I think it would be good to link some of these conclusions and observations to the things Jesus and his followers said.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

As Job said, God gives and God takes away, give praise to the LORD. Job 1:21. I think there are many ways a person can come into poverty, or get out of it. But I think poverty is more a consequence then it is man made. The rich try to keep themselves wealthy, and rig the system to do so as best that they can. And only when God equals the playing ground by humbling everyone and making everyone poor does much in that enviornment change. It is unfortunate that we require famine, natural disasters, or economic depression for societies as a whole to share what wealth they have with everyone to the best of their ability. In that I'm no better either. As a consequence of trying to get by, I don't look for the needs of my community, and I don't see them. Even when I do see the needs the amount I give us small amounts, or even no amounts at all sometimes. Go up the food chain of wealth, or down the food chain, or poverty is our doing and a consequence handed down to us because of our greed, foolishness, and apathy, not to mention any other sins that indices or encourage crime through murder, inequality, or jealousy.

As a sum of our species, we make war with ourselves in so many different ways. Can poverty not exist in such a world?

 

[john darling]

Naturally, everyone would just live off the land what God provided. Free food and water for all and just chill out in harmony everyone loving life and looking after and caring each other having a good time.

Hi Kiwidan. Thanks for sharing those thoughts. However, I think this could possibly relate to the concern Kidron was hinting at when he asked me, "what about a job" and later suggested that I would hesitate to "pick up a shovel". It's a valid concern. What do we do when some people do the hard work and take the risk of sharing while others only seem to see an opportunity to take advantage of that hard work and risk?

I think there are good solutions to this problem. Jesus is described as "ruling with a rod of iron" (Revelation 2:27). I think this suggests that there will be some fairly strict disciplines which he will use to teach people how to share properly with one another. Paul describes something similar in 2 Thessalonians 3:10 where he says, "if you don't work, you don't eat".

Most people these days translate that as "If you don't work (for money) then you should not eat" but the context was that of Paul writing to a community of Believers (Acts 2:44-47 and Acts 4:32-37). "If you don't work (in the community) then you should not eat (in the community)". This was Paul's solution for dealing with lazy people. They can hang around the church all they like just soaking up the loving atmosphere but if they want to eat then they need to contribute.

Anyway, I notice that you included "looking after and caring for one another" in your description, Kiwidan so I'm not suggesting that you are saying we should be lazy. I just thought your comment about "chilling out in harmony" was a good opportunity to address some of the suspicion Kidron raised earlier.

 

[pie-man]

Jesus said ''The poor you will always have with you...''. I don't think God wants there to be poor, hence Jesus and his disciples teaching about helping them, e.g. ''Sell what you have and give it to the poor'' (Luke12:33). This leads me to think it's man made. I also don't think God would take pleasure in there being poor people.

What Jesus said about ''The poor you will always have with you'' is really a prophecy. Jesus knew the world would become greedier, which would then lead to more inequality. There does seem to be a correlation between the fact that we now have more access to resources than at any other time in the past, and yet poverty levels have also increased.

 

[john darling]

But I think poverty is more a consequence then it is man made. The rich try to keep themselves wealthy, and rig the system to do so as best that they can.

Hi NNS. I agree that poverty is a consequence but if it's true that the rich try to keep the poor in poverty then surely the consequences that (at least some of) the poor face are man-made consequences.

I also question this idea of keeping the poor in poverty through various schemes and mechanisms. I think this is true but it's one of those relative things. Is there a difference between greed and poverty?

If the rich purposely try to keep others poor by taking more of the resources, far more than what they need, then I think most of us could see that as greed. But what about the poor among the poor, who aren't really trying to keep others down but just to get for themselves what they feel they need. That probably sounds more reasonable to most of us, but what happens when that leads to them taking from others?

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Hi NNS. I agree that poverty is a consequence but if it's true that the rich try to keep the poor in poverty then surely the consequences that (at least some of) the poor face are man-made consequences.

I also question this idea of keeping the poor in poverty through various schemes and mechanisms. I think this is true but it's one of those relative things. Is there a difference between greed and poverty?

If the rich purposely try to keep others poor by taking more of the resources, far more than what they need, then I think most of us could see that as greed. But what about the poor among the poor, who aren't really trying to keep others down but just to get for themselves what they feel they need. That probably sounds more reasonable to most of us, but what happens when that leads to them taking from others?

In some cases I bet there are rich people who purposefully are against the poor. More often though I don't think people are aware of what they do. they might just be trying to make the market easier for themselves to stay rich. With thoughts about their hard work, their family heritage, or the wellbeing of their family or those they are responsibe for; it is easy to place those concerns in a way to try and make the system work for you, and draw plans to make it so. When those plans place others at a disadvantage, it might go unnoticed, or it has been noticed and is a prickly subject. They worked hard for what they did, and instead of praise, they are criticized. You can imagine a person being defensive and giving those that are struggling, in poverty, or closer to poverty a dismissive sting saying, "If they work hard enough they will pull themselves out of their own life's troubles."

With those two factors, of rich people striving to protect their wealth or make more, and the philosophies that it's the pools fault that they are poor, you get a cultural dynamic that plays out the same way if it was a conspiracy of a rich man trying to keep the poor man down and underfoot. Don't get me wrong, I thing that second thing exists too, there are countries where religous and racial discrimination have kept on population above another. My own country has the same in it's history with racism and leaders in governing offices being part of the KKK, or on the same tune as the racism that is in the culture at the time. However, I also think that largely we are unaware of the effects of our actions, or we are uncaring about those effects.