Is Scripture Corrupt?

[Mysteryman]

The one poster said - willful ignorance

Another poster said - when will this nonesense stop

Answer to both comments : When these posters stop believing an untruth and start believing the truth, from which I have fully already explained.

I would be interested in what these two posters believe the carrying away into Babylon occured in the OT. Which btw has not been discussed fully yet.

 

[francisdesales]

The one poster said - willful ignorance

Another poster said - when will this nonesense stop

Answer to both comments : When these posters stop believing an untruth and start believing the truth, from which I have fully already explained.

I would be interested in what these two posters believe the carrying away into Babylon occured in the OT. Which btw has not been discussed fully yet.

There is no point in discussing issues with someone who is probably the sole person on this earth that thinks Joseph was Mary's father. I might as well argue with a teenager on whether the moon is made of cheese or not.

You have already shown what sort of person you are most recently, and not just with me... Don't lecture me about untruths, you can barely keep up with your own...

I am beginning to think, given the ridiculous and anti-Biblical stands you have been taking in the last month, that your primary purpose here is to cause divisiveness on a Christian forum. I shudder to think what the next wacked "theology" you will present next, it gets more freaked out each time...

 

[Ashua]

The one poster said - willful ignorance

Another poster said - when will this nonesense stop

Answer to both comments : When these posters stop believing an untruth and start believing the truth, from which I have fully already explained.

I would be interested in what these two posters believe the carrying away into Babylon occured in the OT. Which btw has not been discussed fully yet.

Youre absolutely wrong about Joseph. Not only is it ridiculous to use this twisted invention of revision to explain the fourteen generations when the answer has been plainly given to you, but to say that Joseph (who the scriptures say was a JUST man) would marry his own daughter, the mother of Christ is all the more ridiculous. Just men do not break the Law of Moses like that in first century Israel. The TORAH of which the Jews made their boast forbids practices of incest. Paul says in one of his epistles that a man who laid with his father's wife (not necessarily even his blood mother) was so shameful an act that not even the pagans do it. If you are suggesting that the gospels and such simply got it wrong all over when they said he was her husband, then youre likely catholic trying to continue in the myth that she remained a life long virgin despite the siblings of Christ. How do you explain the verse which says that Mary did not KNOW Joseph UNTIL after Christ was born? That pretty much sums up the extent of their relationship.

Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the LORD had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Yeshua.

Now to answer your question:

There were three waves of exile to Babylon, the first in 597 BC a second in 587 BC and the third at an unknown time (possibly 582 BC)

In the genealogy, this timing is pinpointed to this:

And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:

And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;


So apparently the first wave of exile took place around the birth of Jechonias, and his brethren probably in their early years of life-- as children they left their birth place Israel for Babylon.

The children of Jechonias, salathiel on down were BORN IN Babylon.

 

[Mysteryman]

The one poster said - willful ignorance

Another poster said - when will this nonesense stop

Answer to both comments : When these posters stop believing an untruth and start believing the truth, from which I have fully already explained.

I would be interested in what these two posters believe the carrying away into Babylon occured in the OT. Which btw has not been discussed fully yet.

Youre absolutely wrong about Joseph. Not only is it ridiculous to use this twisted invention of revision to explain the fourteen generations when the answer has been plainly given to you, but to say that Joseph (who the scriptures say was a JUST man) would marry his own daughter, the mother of Christ is all the more ridiculous. Just men do not break the Law of Moses like that in first century Israel. The TORAH of which the Jews made their boast forbids practices of incest. Paul says in one of his epistles that a man who laid with his father's wife (not necessarily even his blood mother) was so shameful an act that not even the pagans do it. If you are suggesting that the gospels and such simply got it wrong all over when they said he was her husband, then youre likely catholic trying to continue in the myth that she remained a life long virgin despite the siblings of Christ. How do you explain the verse which says that Mary did not KNOW Joseph UNTIL after Christ was born? That pretty much sums up the extent of their relationship.

Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the LORD had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Yeshua.

Now to answer your question:

There were three waves of exile to Babylon, the first in 597 BC a second in 587 BC and the third at an unknown time (possibly 582 BC)

In the genealogy, this timing is pinpointed to this:

And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:

And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;


So apparently the first wave of exile took place around the birth of Jechonias, and his brethren probably in their early years of life-- as children they left their birth place Israel for Babylon.

The children of Jechonias, salathiel on down were BORN IN Babylon.

Hi

Correct, Salathiel was born in Babylon. Not only was Jechonias born prior to going into Babylon, he was also King of Judah when he was carried away into captivity into Babylon - II Kings 24:14 - 15 - Read the context from II Kings 24:8 - 15

So according to Matt. 1:17 Jechonias was the last generation just prior to going into captivity into Babylon. Yet, you put his name at the top of the list of your third list of 14 generations, which goes against scripture. In verse 17 of Matt. it states plainly, that there are 14 generations before (until) the carrying away into Babylon, which Jechonias would be one of the 14. And then there are 14 generations after the carrying away into Babylon . You excluded Jechonias from your second list of 14 generations, because you wanted your theory to fit your interpretation.

From the carrying away into Babylon there are 14 generations. This means that you can not start the third list of generation with Jechonias. You must start the third list with Salathiel, and then come up with 14 generations. However, you would only end up with 13 instead of 14 generations ! So then, your theory would not fit !

MM

 

[francisdesales]

If you are suggesting that the gospels and such simply got it wrong all over when they said he was her husband, then youre likely catholic trying to continue in the myth that she remained a life long virgin despite the siblings of Christ.

Good gravy, don't associate this lunacy with Catholics, please... There is Scriptural and Traditional basis to understand Mary was always a virgin. There is NOTHING to suggest that Joseph was Mary's father. The former is believed by even the Greek Orthodox, in other words, the entire Church before the Schism, so this is not exactly a "RCC thing". Can anyone point to ONE SINGLE person of the first millenium who suggested that Joseph was Mary's father???

Regards

 

[Ashua]

The one poster said - willful ignorance

Another poster said - when will this nonesense stop

Answer to both comments : When these posters stop believing an untruth and start believing the truth, from which I have fully already explained.

I would be interested in what these two posters believe the carrying away into Babylon occured in the OT. Which btw has not been discussed fully yet.

Youre absolutely wrong about Joseph. Not only is it ridiculous to use this twisted invention of revision to explain the fourteen generations when the answer has been plainly given to you, but to say that Joseph (who the scriptures say was a JUST man) would marry his own daughter, the mother of Christ is all the more ridiculous. Just men do not break the Law of Moses like that in first century Israel. The TORAH of which the Jews made their boast forbids practices of incest. Paul says in one of his epistles that a man who laid with his father's wife (not necessarily even his blood mother) was so shameful an act that not even the pagans do it. If you are suggesting that the gospels and such simply got it wrong all over when they said he was her husband, then youre likely catholic trying to continue in the myth that she remained a life long virgin despite the siblings of Christ. How do you explain the verse which says that Mary did not KNOW Joseph UNTIL after Christ was born? That pretty much sums up the extent of their relationship.

Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the LORD had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Yeshua.

Now to answer your question:

There were three waves of exile to Babylon, the first in 597 BC a second in 587 BC and the third at an unknown time (possibly 582 BC)

In the genealogy, this timing is pinpointed to this:

And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:

And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;


So apparently the first wave of exile took place around the birth of Jechonias, and his brethren probably in their early years of life-- as children they left their birth place Israel for Babylon.

The children of Jechonias, salathiel on down were BORN IN Babylon.

Hi

Correct, Salathiel was born in Babylon. Not only was Jechonias born prior to going into Babylon, he was also King of Judah when he was carried away into captivity into Babylon - II Kings 24:14 - 15 - Read the context from II Kings 24:8 - 15

So according to Matt. 1:17 Jechonias was the last generation just prior to going into captivity into Babylon. Yet, you put his name at the top of the list of your third list of 14 generations, which goes against scripture. In verse 17 of Matt. it states plainly, that there are 14 generations before (until) the carrying away into Babylon, which Jechonias would be one of the 14. And then there are 14 generations after the carrying away into Babylon . You excluded Jechonias from your second list of 14 generations, because you wanted your theory to fit your interpretation.

From the carrying away into Babylon there are 14 generations. This means that you can not start the third list of generation with Jechonias. You must start the third list with Salathiel, and then come up with 14 generations. However, you would only end up with 13 instead of 14 generations ! So then, your theory would not fit !

MM

not really. its not my theory at all. its what Matthew wrote down.

Matthew said Jechonias was in the generation that came into captivity. the captivity is broadly defined in terms of time. In fact, like David the exile is listed twice in the verse. Unlike David, the exile itself is not a man to be counted.

So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Messiah are fourteen generations.

And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:

12And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;

The captivity was an approximated event that happened when jechonias could fit on either side of the fence. he did not reign like the others.

Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.

And he did that which was evil in the sight of YHVH, according to all that his father had done.

At that time the servants of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came up against Jerusalem, and the city was besieged.

And Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came against the city, and his servants did besiege it.

And Jehoiachin the king of Judah went out to the king of Babylon, he, and his mother, and his servants, and his princes, and his officers: and the king of Babylon took him in the eighth year of his reign.


so really? Youre going to claim foul because his name is written on the 'other side' of the captivity on the list because he was king for all of 3 months before the captivity? As I said, his father was more or less the seal of the 2nd fourteen and it said "about the time" they were carried off in Matthew. Its an approximation and the 18 year old king of 3 months doesnt move that. what is 18 years after being begotten? it is 'about' the time of the exile in terms of the years and years of generations. what is 3 months of reigning if you can even call it that?

 

[Mysteryman]

The one poster said - willful ignorance

Another poster said - when will this nonesense stop

Answer to both comments : When these posters stop believing an untruth and start believing the truth, from which I have fully already explained.

I would be interested in what these two posters believe the carrying away into Babylon occured in the OT. Which btw has not been discussed fully yet.

Youre absolutely wrong about Joseph. Not only is it ridiculous to use this twisted invention of revision to explain the fourteen generations when the answer has been plainly given to you, but to say that Joseph (who the scriptures say was a JUST man) would marry his own daughter, the mother of Christ is all the more ridiculous. Just men do not break the Law of Moses like that in first century Israel. The TORAH of which the Jews made their boast forbids practices of incest. Paul says in one of his epistles that a man who laid with his father's wife (not necessarily even his blood mother) was so shameful an act that not even the pagans do it. If you are suggesting that the gospels and such simply got it wrong all over when they said he was her husband, then youre likely catholic trying to continue in the myth that she remained a life long virgin despite the siblings of Christ. How do you explain the verse which says that Mary did not KNOW Joseph UNTIL after Christ was born? That pretty much sums up the extent of their relationship.

Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the LORD had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Yeshua.

Now to answer your question:

There were three waves of exile to Babylon, the first in 597 BC a second in 587 BC and the third at an unknown time (possibly 582 BC)

In the genealogy, this timing is pinpointed to this:

And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:

And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;


So apparently the first wave of exile took place around the birth of Jechonias, and his brethren probably in their early years of life-- as children they left their birth place Israel for Babylon.

The children of Jechonias, salathiel on down were BORN IN Babylon.

Hi

Correct, Salathiel was born in Babylon. Not only was Jechonias born prior to going into Babylon, he was also King of Judah when he was carried away into captivity into Babylon - II Kings 24:14 - 15 - Read the context from II Kings 24:8 - 15

So according to Matt. 1:17 Jechonias was the last generation just prior to going into captivity into Babylon. Yet, you put his name at the top of the list of your third list of 14 generations, which goes against scripture. In verse 17 of Matt. it states plainly, that there are 14 generations before (until) the carrying away into Babylon, which Jechonias would be one of the 14. And then there are 14 generations after the carrying away into Babylon . You excluded Jechonias from your second list of 14 generations, because you wanted your theory to fit your interpretation.

From the carrying away into Babylon there are 14 generations. This means that you can not start the third list of generation with Jechonias. You must start the third list with Salathiel, and then come up with 14 generations. However, you would only end up with 13 instead of 14 generations ! So then, your theory would not fit !

MM

not really. its not my theory at all. its what Matthew wrote down.

Matthew said Jechonias was in the generation that came into captivity. the captivity is broadly defined in terms of time. In fact, like David the exile is listed twice in the verse. Unlike David, the exile itself is not a man to be counted.

So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Messiah are fourteen generations.

And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:

12And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;

The captivity was an approximated event that happened when jechonias could fit on either side of the fence. he did not reign like the others.

Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.

And he did that which was evil in the sight of YHVH, according to all that his father had done.

At that time the servants of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came up against Jerusalem, and the city was besieged.

And Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came against the city, and his servants did besiege it.

And Jehoiachin the king of Judah went out to the king of Babylon, he, and his mother, and his servants, and his princes, and his officers: and the king of Babylon took him in the eighth year of his reign.


so really? Youre going to claim foul because his name is written on the 'other side' of the captivity on the list because he was king for all of 3 months before the captivity? As I said, his father was more or less the seal of the 2nd fourteen and it said "about the time" they were carried off in Matthew. Its an approximation and the 18 year old king of 3 months doesnt move that. what is 18 years after being begotten? it is 'about' the time of the exile in terms of the years and years of generations. what is 3 months of reigning if you can even call it that?[/quote]
---------------------
Hi

There is nothing coherent in your reply here. All you are doing is a word game, which you feel allows you the privelage of claiming that Jechonias can be listed in the third list of generations, instead of the second list.

There are 14 generations from David until the carrying away into Babylon. It is clear from second Kings that Jechonias is one of the 14 generations.

The reason for the carrying away into Babylon was because Jechonias ( Jehoiachin ) who was king, did evil in the sight of God. This is why God allowed them to be carried away into captivity in the first place.

The King started to reign in Jerusalem when he was 18 years of age. This shows his age , as it reflects back to what it says in Matthew chapter one. Here in Matthew chapter one the word "begat" indicates the birth of a son. Jechonias was born 18 years before his reign. Then after his reign, he did evil in the sight of God. Then him and his family were carried away into Babylon.

If I were you, I would rethink your stance once again.

Bless - MM

 

[Ashua]

he is the first person in the lineage to be in captivity. His father died before the captivity, Jechonias died after they were taken captive. Abraham to David. Then David to the last king upon who's death ushered in the era of captivity. The captivity being the work of God for a punishment to Jechonias, therefore Jechonias is the beginning of captivity and the beginning of the third set of fourteen.

1st group -The birth and establishment of national Israel from Abraham to the second King of Israel, and first "good" one, King David.

2nd group -The prosperity of Israel, started in the reign of David; followed by the division of Israel and Judah and steady decline by sinful kings until the breaking point wherein the cup of God's patience overflowed and was poured out.

3rd group -the judgment of God dispensed on Israel in the form of captivity. Jechonias leading the way as the first in the bloodline to taste of captivity. He led his people to calamity, so he "Owns" the distinction of being first on the third list, as he gave way to the third era in Israel's history. The list runs down through the low point in Israel's history with a subtle and discrete crescendo in the coming of our Lord and savior.

Its not wordplay on my part. In fact, it is very much what the text says. To say that I'm trying to force a jigsaw puzzle into place for disingenuous purposes, despite it make sense in the scriptures is insult enough, but you do it telling me that Joseph is Mary's father? Are you able to say that without blushing?

 

[Mysteryman]

he is the first person in the lineage to be in captivity. His father died before the captivity, Jechonias died after they were taken captive. Abraham to David. Then David to the last king upon who's death ushered in the era of captivity. The captivity being the work of God for a punishment to Jechonias, therefore Jechonias is the beginning of captivity and the beginning of the third set of fourteen.

1st group -The birth and establishment of national Israel from Abraham to the second King of Israel, and first "good" one, King David.

2nd group -The prosperity of Israel, started in the reign of David; followed by the division of Israel and Judah and steady decline by sinful kings until the breaking point wherein the cup of God's patience overflowed and was poured out.

3rd group -the judgment of God dispensed on Israel in the form of captivity. Jechonias leading the way as the first in the bloodline to taste of captivity. He led his people to calamity, so he "Owns" the distinction of being first on the third list, as he gave way to the third era in Israel's history. The list runs down through the low point in Israel's history with a subtle and discrete crescendo in the coming of our Lord and savior.

Its not wordplay on my part. In fact, it is very much what the text says. To say that I'm trying to force a jigsaw puzzle into place for disingenuous purposes, despite it make sense in the scriptures is insult enough, but you do it telling me that Joseph is Mary's father? Are you able to say that without blushing?

Hi

The death of Josias has nothing to do with a generation. Again, just more word games !

Josias begat Jechonias before the carrying away into Babylon. And as I pointed out to you already, Jehoiachin was King of Jerusalem and Judah , and that his reign is what God found fault with, which is "why" they were brought into captivity. So clearly Jechonias was one of the generations ( about the time they were carried away to Babylon).

It is apparent that you do not want to accept this truth. Your so called 3rd group , and the explanation you gave , is a clear indication that you are making up your own theory, in order that you can make a false claim. Matt. 1:17 clearly states, that from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ there are 14 generations. Just prior to that statement, verse 17 tells us that there were 14 generations from David until the carrying away into Babylon. Jehoiachin before he was KIng, was born 18 years prior to not only being King, but 26 years of age when being carried away into Babylon. It is very obvious, that Jechonias was one of the generations . You do not count a generation based upon the false premise that he had to be king, nor the false premise that the death of his father Josias, who was king, in some way cancels out Jechonias from being a generation . Or because Jehoiachin was the first to be brought into captivity . Salathiel was the first ( from the carrying away into Babylon ) !

Bless - MM

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote Ashua : "so really? Youre going to claim foul because his name is written on the 'other side' of the captivity on the list because he was king for all of 3 months before the captivity? As I said, his father was more or less the seal of the 2nd fourteen and it said "about the time" they were carried off in Matthew. Its an approximation and the 18 year old king of 3 months doesnt move that. what is 18 years after being begotten? it is 'about' the time of the exile in terms of the years and years of generations. what is 3 months of reigning if you can even call it that? "

-----------------------------------------

Hi Ashua :

I wanted to correct you here , so I brought forth this part of your post.

Jehoiachin was 18 years old when he began to reign, and after 3 months he began to do evil in the sight of God. Now drop down to verse 12 In second Kings chapter 24, where it states that Jehoiachin reigned for eight ( 8 ) years , and then he was taken captive. 18 + 8 makes Jehoiachin 26 years old now -- when King Jehoiachin and his family were taken into captivity. 26 years since his birth, of which , as soon as he was born, he became another generation.

Now read Matt. 1:11 and correspond that with verse 17 - and it looks like this >

Verse 11 - "And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon"

Verse 17 - "And from David until the carrying away into Babylon are 14 generations "

Verse 17 makes verse 11 much clearer !

Jehoiachin was born 26 years prior to the word "until" in verse 17. The words "about" and "until" are synonymous with one another. There were 14 generations -- "until" the carrying away into Babylon. Jechonias is one of the 14 generations !

It does not get any more clear than this !

Bless - MM

"

 

[Sinthesis]

Let me interrupt the flagrant sophistry.

The genealogy of Matt 1 is not exhaustive, nor is it meant to be. It is, however, broken down into a mnemonic device, so as to be memorable to the largely oral culture that existed when it was originally written down. Hence a very large number of names are divided into groups of 14.

Missing is the name "Jehoiakim"; son of Josias and father of Jechonias. It is missing for a reason culturally significant to the Jews of the time. Josias' defeat in battle to the Egyptians, and his associated death(609BC), ushered in the captivity. Jehoiakim was king when hostages began to be taken captive to Babylon(605BC). Jechonias was the first king to go into the Babylonian captivity himself(597BC).

Further, Manasses gets the blame for the captivity.

Endless genealogies indeed!

 

[francisdesales]

Let me interrupt the flagrant sophistry.

The genealogy of Matt 1 is not exhaustive, nor is it meant to be. It is, however, broken down into a mnemonic device, so as to be memorable to the largely oral culture that existed when it was originally written down. Hence a very large number of names are divided into groups of 14.

Missing is the name "Jehoiakim"; son of Josias and father of Jechonias. It is missing for a reason culturally significant to the Jews of the time. Josias' defeat in battle to the Egyptians, and his associated death(609BC), ushered in the captivity. Jehoiakim was king when hostages began to be taken captive to Babylon(605BC). Jechonias was the first king to go into the Babylonian captivity himself(597BC).

Further, Manasses gets the blame for the captivity.

Endless genealogies indeed!

Welcome to the club...

 

[l'Chante]

If I may, I would like to introduce the 'what if' game here. What if Joseph was indeed Mary's father and not her husband? What if we interpreted the Bible incorrectly for almost 2000 years? What if MM is indeed correct?

Would we really be able to save a single soul with this information? Was Jesus' last instruction not to go out and spread the gospel and baptize people? I would much rather go out and to charity work and spread the Word than, well, try to make sense of this debate. I find it a little silly, actually.

It is very important that we save as many souls as we possibly can while we are here, because that is the only thing that we can not do in Heaven. Once we are there it is too late.

Don't get me wrong; I understand that it is important to read and understand the Bible. It is God word after all. But shouldn't we rather use the Word as a communication/educational 'tool' rather than to read it and 'sweat the small stuff'?

 

[Mysteryman]

If I may, I would like to introduce the 'what if' game here. What if Joseph was indeed Mary's father and not her husband? What if we interpreted the Bible incorrectly for almost 2000 years? What if MM is indeed correct?

Would we really be able to save a single soul with this information? Was Jesus' last instruction not to go out and spread the gospel and baptize people? I would much rather go out and to charity work and spread the Word than, well, try to make sense of this debate. I find it a little silly, actually.

It is very important that we save as many souls as we possibly can while we are here, because that is the only thing that we can not do in Heaven. Once we are there it is too late.

Don't get me wrong; I understand that it is important to read and understand the Bible. It is God word after all. But shouldn't we rather use the Word as a communication/educational 'tool' rather than to read it and 'sweat the small stuff'?

Hi

I understand what you are saying. But the same errors occur with other subjects within the Word of God as well. Hence, this is why there are so many denominations. Everyone seems to have a theory, and pop, another denomination is born.

This study can be very educational if one can follow the information given. However, it does become a bit foggy when so many give so much information, or when the information is a bit skewed.

For instance, Sinthesis brought up something that is important to the conversation, and should be agreed upon and addressed as well. And that is, that Jehoiakim is the father of Jechonias, Not Josias. Yet, in Matt. 1:11 it reads, Josias begat Jechonias . Josias , which is Josiah in the OT (same person) is the father of Jehoiakim and Jehoiakim is the father of Jechonias ( I Chronicles 3:14 - 16 < here in verse 16 , Jeconiah is Jeconias in Matt. 1:11, Now, to make things interesting, this Jeconiah In I Chronicles 3:16 is the same person in II Kings 24:6 , which is spelled - "Jehoiachin"). Notice here that in the generations list in Matt. chapter one, that Jehoiakim is not mentioned. All of this can bet a bit confusing if one allows it to become confusion. But this is why we study the scriptures, to see if those things are so or not. We need to remove the chaff from the grain.

How we read the scriptures is of the utmost importance. And how we render our understanding according to how we read the scriptures.

If we look as to whether or not this Joseph is Mary's father or husband, also can alter how one looks at the lineage in Luke chapter 3.

Also, if I am correct, and this Joseph in Matt. 1:16 is indeed Mary's father, then we must also come to the conclusion, that our bibles are not trust worthy as we read them word for word. And here is the problem. Way too many people read their bibles and they put way too much trust in the way in which they are written. If we compare the many translations , side by side, we must ask ourselves as to why they are not identical ? Some say that there are only slight variations. But that is not always true. Sometimes that are drastic changes made in wording. As well as sentence structrure.

On any subject people can become upset with one another in their quest for being in a discussion. The quest or challenge becomes more of a war zone, than a discussion. WE should try and not allow this to happen. But, people will time from time make false comments pertaining to the scriptures. And some time they will even attempt to alter the true meaning by their own wording and explanations. This of course is unacceptable.

The simple truth is this. First, there are indeed two Joseph's. Just look at Luke chapter 3 and in verse 23. The other Joseph is in Matt. 1:16. They can not be the same Joseph ! Just look at the lineage .

So the question comes down to this. Which Joseph is the husband of Mary, and which is the Father of Mary ?

Again this comes back to this word "aner" in Matt. 1:16. And can be confirmed by the 14 + 14 + 14 generations.

There is a Joy, as well as a peace within one's self, when one knows the truth. AS the Word says - The truth shall make you free. Free from doubt. Free from speculation. Free from guessing. Free from untruth. And it can make one free from bondage as well.

Bless - MM

 

[Mysteryman]

Let me interrupt the flagrant sophistry.

The genealogy of Matt 1 is not exhaustive, nor is it meant to be. It is, however, broken down into a mnemonic device, so as to be memorable to the largely oral culture that existed when it was originally written down. Hence a very large number of names are divided into groups of 14.

Missing is the name "Jehoiakim"; son of Josias and father of Jechonias. It is missing for a reason culturally significant to the Jews of the time. Josias' defeat in battle to the Egyptians, and his associated death(609BC), ushered in the captivity. Jehoiakim was king when hostages began to be taken captive to Babylon(605BC). Jechonias was the first king to go into the Babylonian captivity himself(597BC).

Further, Manasses gets the blame for the captivity.

Endless genealogies indeed!

We should not forget what it states in Matt. 1:17 , that there are 14 generations from David until the carrying away into Babylon. Jechonias/Jehoiachin was born way before anyone was carried away into Babylon. So Jechonias must be counted as one of the generations in the second list of generations.

IN Christ - MM

 

[Ashua]

Let me interrupt the flagrant sophistry.

The genealogy of Matt 1 is not exhaustive, nor is it meant to be. It is, however, broken down into a mnemonic device, so as to be memorable to the largely oral culture that existed when it was originally written down. Hence a very large number of names are divided into groups of 14.

Missing is the name "Jehoiakim"; son of Josias and father of Jechonias. It is missing for a reason culturally significant to the Jews of the time. Josias' defeat in battle to the Egyptians, and his associated death(609BC), ushered in the captivity. Jehoiakim was king when hostages began to be taken captive to Babylon(605BC). Jechonias was the first king to go into the Babylonian captivity himself(597BC).

Further, Manasses gets the blame for the captivity.

Endless genealogies indeed!

We should not forget what it states in Matt. 1:17 , that there are 14 generations from David until the carrying away into Babylon. Jechonias/Jehoiachin was born way before anyone was carried away into Babylon. So Jechonias must be counted as one of the generations in the second list of generations.

IN Christ - MM

Mysteryman, it says he was born "about the time" they were carried off into captivity. Look at it in context. The context is the generations of Yeshua the Messiah. From Abraham to Christ was a little over 2,100 years. What is 18 years in 2,100?

 

[Ashua]

Thats not even a good translation. The word translated "about the time" should have been "upon" or "Leading up to". Its constantly translated as "to", "unto", "by", and so fourth. The word actually has more to do with LOCATION than time. So his LOCATION on the list was by the exile. Im very glad you kept with this point. Its proving to be edifying for me. Im more convinced than ever.

Don't believe me? Just look at how its used in the rest of the New Testament.

???

epi

1) upon, on, at, by, before

2) of position, on, at, by, over, against

3) to, over, on, at, across, against


But when he heard that Archelaus did reign EPI Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee:


But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come EPI his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
And he came and dwelt EPI a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.

Then cometh Jesus from Galilee EPI Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

- Mat 3:16 -
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting EPI him:


But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live EPI bread alone, but EPI every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and EPI [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

- Mat 5:15 -
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but EPI a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee EPI thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise EPI the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Lay not up for yourselves treasures EPI earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power EPI earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

I could go on and on and on. Dont look at the english. Look at the Greek and Hebrew. This really helps my case.



And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, upon the time they were carried away to Babylon:

And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, leading up to the time they were carried away to Babylon:

Both of these are faithful translations to the Greek. Actually, the word "time" is added in that sentence. It could be more literally translated:

And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, upon the carrying away into Babylon:

And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, leading up the carrying away into Babylon:

In fact---


??????????

metoikesia

1) removal from one abode to another, esp. a forced removal

AV — carrying away into 2, carried away to 1, be brought to 1

That form of the sentence structure I changed it to is how the concordance has that word as well.

 

[Mysteryman]

Thats not even a good translation. The word translated "about the time" should have been "upon" or "Leading up to". Its constantly translated as "to", "unto", "by", and so fourth. The word actually has more to do with LOCATION than time. So his LOCATION on the list was by the exile. Im very glad you kept with this point. Its proving to be edifying for me. Im more convinced than ever.

Don't believe me? Just look at how its used in the rest of the New Testament.

???

epi

1) upon, on, at, by, before

2) of position, on, at, by, over, against

3) to, over, on, at, across, against


But when he heard that Archelaus did reign EPI Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee:


But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come EPI his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
And he came and dwelt EPI a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.

Then cometh Jesus from Galilee EPI Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

- Mat 3:16 -
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting EPI him:


But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live EPI bread alone, but EPI every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and EPI [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

- Mat 5:15 -
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but EPI a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee EPI thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise EPI the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Lay not up for yourselves treasures EPI earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power EPI earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

I could go on and on and on. Dont look at the english. Look at the Greek and Hebrew. This really helps my case.



And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, upon the time they were carried away to Babylon:

And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, leading up to the time they were carried away to Babylon:

Both of these are faithful translations to the Greek. Actually, the word "time" is added in that sentence. It could be more literally translated:

And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, upon the carrying away into Babylon:

And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, leading up the carrying away into Babylon:

In fact---


??????????

metoikesia

1) removal from one abode to another, esp. a forced removal

AV — carrying away into 2, carried away to 1, be brought to 1

That form of the sentence structure I changed it to is how the concordance has that word as well.

Hi Ashua

Before you get carried away with your theory here. Let me make a point, as well, I would like to ask you a question.

My point is this --- All scripture must agree with itself, so that there are no contradictions whatsoever. Matt. 1:11 must agree with Matt. 1:17 in all aspects. Also, there being 14 generations in three different groups , must also agree without there being any contradictions whatsoever. Also, the OT must be in total harmony with everything in the NT. And there are times that our translations , which have become altered , makes this harmony impossible. Sometimes it can be within our understanding which can skew the outcome of the harmony of scripture.

As soon as one lays down a theory, and that theory caused disharmony with another verse , such as you are doing here with Matt. 1:11 and Matt. 1:17 there is no wonder as to why we see so much confusion.

My question(s) : What factor determinds a "generation" ( genealogy) ? Do any of these factors determind a "generation" ( genealogy ) --- Being a King ? Dying ? Being carried away into Babylon ? Because your father was the King before you ? Because you became the next King ? Because your father did that which is right in the eyes of God ? Because you did that which was evil in the eyes of God ? Does any of these determind what factors detemind what a generation (genealogy) means ? Or do they determind "when" something happened ?

 

[Ashua]

One generation is one linear exchange in parents. etc<----great grand father---> grand father--->father--->son-->Grandson--->great grandson---->etc

And for the last time, it is not my "theory" it is what the text clearly states. I have broken it down in parts. I have explained it in detail. I have even used Greek words to prove the point and meaning of the single word translated into a entire phrase.

Yes both Testaments agree with one another in the proper translation, interpretation, and context That is why your assumption that 3 sets of 14 generations= 42 generations is broken. The text does not say there are 42 generations, but breaks it down into even thirds, partitioned into eras of Hebrew history. David and the Babylonian captivity behave as 'transitional forms' between the groupings.

As the people here have told me to do, I will no longer strive with you. You have plenty of your own unique 'theories'. I would suggest you spend some time in a concordance and break the verses in question down word by word. As for my 'theory' it fits perfectly, for anyone who knows how to read context.


http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cf ... JV#conc/11

 

[Mysteryman]

One generation is one linear exchange in parents. etc<----great grand father---> grand father--->father--->son-->Grandson--->great grandson---->etc

And for the last time, it is not my "theory" it is what the text clearly states. I have broken it down in parts. I have explained it in detail. I have even used Greek words to prove the point and meaning of the single word translated into a entire phrase.

Yes both Testaments agree with one another in the proper translation, interpretation, and context That is why your assumption that 3 sets of 14 generations= 42 generations is broken. The text does not say there are 42 generations, but breaks it down into even thirds, partitioned into eras of Hebrew history.

As the people here have told me to do, I will no longer strive with you. You have plenty of your own unique 'theories'. I would suggest you spend some time in a concordance and break the verses in question down word by word. As for my 'theory' it fits perfectly, for anyone who knows how to read context.


http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cf ... JV#conc/11

Hi Ashua

Let me see if I can give you an example of what I have been trying to express to you. Here is what you said two days agao in an above post >

Quote Ashua : ". Abraham to David. Then David to the last king upon who's death ushered in the era of captivity.


Matt. 1:17 states clearly that there are 14 generations from David until the carrying away into Babylon.

Your comments continually imply your own theories throughout your conversations with me. Matt. 1:17 does not mention anything about "the last King upon whoes death ushered in the era of captivity"

Abraham to David, yes

King David to the last King upon whoes death usuhered in the era of captivity, NO !

And just in your last explained post of today, you are now basing your theory upon just Matt. 1:11 and the wording in this verse. As it is true, that Josias begat his sons , this comment in Matt. 1:11 is not talking about Josias who begat a paticular son. Josias who is Josiah in the OT, begat four sons, and those sons are mentioned in I Chronicles 3:15. Jechonias , which is Jehoiachin in the OT, is not a son of Josias (Josiah). The way in which Josias begat Jechonias is by way of his son , who happens to be Jehoiakim. Jehoiakim begat Jechonais/Jehoiachin.

In Matt. chapter one, we read in verse 10 - "Amon begat Josias" < Amon is the father and Josias is his son. But when we come to verse 11, Josias is not the father of Jechonias ! He is the grandfather.

Being a King or not being a king, has nothing to do with what makes a generation. A generation is simply determind by the birth of another offspring, be it a son or a daughter. And another generation is determind by either the son or the daughter having an offspring of their own.

Matt. 1:17 tells us that there are 14 generations from David until the carrying away into Babylon. And this is why verse 11 is so misunderstood.