Is Scripture Corrupt?

[Mysteryman]

My apologies for the delay in response, but I wanted to read through the whole thread and I referred back to the Bible in my mother tongue. Unfortunately we don’t have as many translations as the English, and the English ones go a bit over my head.

I do have a couple of questions regarding this and I hope someone will take the time to explain it to me.

1. Why is it important to calculate 42 generations? I’m sure it must be important as I believe everything in the Bible is important, but I just don’t understand why?
2. The bloodline that the Scripture refers to is Joseph’s bloodline and not Mary’s, right?
3. Yet the fact that Joseph wanted to ‘divorce’ Mary clearly indicates that he was not her father.

I would really appreciate it if someone could explain these questions to me in layman’s terms. (Some of you have very impressive vocabularies, but I don’t always understand what you are saying. )

Mary's

Lineage in this record in Matthew are the generations, not the genealogies !

 

[Mysteryman]

My apologies for the delay in response, but I wanted to read through the whole thread and I referred back to the Bible in my mother tongue. Unfortunately we don’t have as many translations as the English, and the English ones go a bit over my head.

I do have a couple of questions regarding this and I hope someone will take the time to explain it to me.

1. Why is it important to calculate 42 generations? I’m sure it must be important as I believe everything in the Bible is important, but I just don’t understand why?
2. The bloodline that the Scripture refers to is Joseph’s bloodline and not Mary’s, right?
3. Yet the fact that Joseph wanted to ‘divorce’ Mary clearly indicates that he was not her father.

I would really appreciate it if someone could explain these questions to me in layman’s terms. (Some of you have very impressive vocabularies, but I don’t always understand what you are saying. )

In this record in Matthew , there are two Joseph's

1. Joseph - "man" (aner) who is the father of Mary - Verse 16

2. Joseph - "man" (aner) who is the husband of Mary - Verse 19

 

[l'Chante]

Is it that people can not count up to 42 , or is it that they do not want to properly count up to 42 ? I say the latter. They want to be ignorant ( lack of knowledge ) , and the Word tells us, that if one wants to remain in their lack of knowledge (ignorance) , for one to allow them to remain in their lack of knowledge ( ignorance). :yes

Okay...? I have no idea what 'genealogies' are, why you quoted John 4:24, or why it is important to count 42 generations.
:biglaugh
Ah man, I'm hopeless. Thanks for trying anyway.

 

[Mysteryman]

Is it that people can not count up to 42 , or is it that they do not want to properly count up to 42 ? I say the latter. They want to be ignorant ( lack of knowledge ) , and the Word tells us, that if one wants to remain in their lack of knowledge (ignorance) , for one to allow them to remain in their lack of knowledge ( ignorance). :yes

Okay...? I have no idea what 'genealogies' are, why you quoted John 4:24, or why it is important to count 42 generations.
:biglaugh
Ah man, I'm hopeless. Thanks for trying anyway.

In the book of Matthew , and in chapter one, it states that there are 14 generations + 14 generations + 14 generations = 42 generations. < Simple math

Now we need to list them , fourteen at a time, and come up with 42 total generations. The problem is this. If you trust your bible as it is written exactly, you will only come up with 41 generations from Abraham unto Christ. So where is the 42 nd generation ?

The answer is quit simple > In verse 16 , this Joseph is not the husband of Mary, he is her father. Even though the translators translated this greek word "aner" as husband. The truth is, that this "man" is her father.

Thus, when doing the simple math, Mary becomes the 41st generation and Christ then is the 42 generations. Then and only then will you come up with 42 generations !

Because the Word of God does not list any women in a genealogy. Only men, sons of. This record in Matthew chapter one is not about genealogy. It is about generations, which is why a woman can be counted as one of the generations.

Mary being the daughter of Joseph in a list of generations.

 

[stovebolts]

In the book of Matthew , and in chapter one, it states that there are 14 generations + 14 generations + 14 generations = 42 generations. < Simple math

Hervey,
With all due respect, I can't understand why you won't see the simple truth.
Yes, 14+14+14=42, but as it's been shown to you, David is counted twice.
But if you won't see this, then let me show you in the simplest manner for you. I'll borrow from Ahua's list and modify it to save time.

1. Abraham
2.Isaac
3.Jacob
4.Judas and his brethren;
5.Phares and Zara of Thamar;
6.Esrom
7.Aram
8.Aminadab
9.Naasson
10.Salmon
11.Booz of Rachab
12.Obed of Ruth
13.Jesse
14.David the king;

So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations;

14. David the king
15.Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;
16.Roboam
17.Abia
18.Asa
19.Josaphat
20.Joram
21.Ozias
22.Joatham
23.Achaz
24.Ezekias
25.Manasses
26.Amon
27.Josias; (Lifetime overlapping the Babylonian exile)

and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations;

28.Jechonias and his brethren, (They were begotten) about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
29.And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel;
30.Zorobabel;
31.Abiud
32.Eliakim
33.Azor;
34.Sadoc
35.Achim
36.Eliud
37.Eleazar
38.Matthan
39.Jacob
40.Joseph the husband of Mary,
41.of whom was born Yeshua, who is called Messiah.


Matthew 1:2-16 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judah and his brethren; and Judah begat Perez and Zerah of Tamar; and Perez begat Hezron; and Hezron begat Ram; and Ram begat Amminadab; and Amminadab begat Nahshon; and Nahshon begat Salmon; and Salmon begat Boaz of Rahab; and Boaz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse; and Jesse begat David the king. And David begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Uriah; and Solomon begat Rehoboam; and Rehoboam begat Abijah; and Abijah begat Asa; and Asa begat Jehoshaphat; and Jehoshaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Uzziah; and Uzziah begat Jotham; and Jotham begat Ahaz; and Ahaz begat Hezekiah; and Hezekiah begat Manasseh; and Manasseh begat Amon; and Amon begat Josiah; and Josiah begat Jechoniah and his brethren, at the time of the carrying away to Babylon. And after the carrying away to Babylon, Jechoniah begat Shealtiel; and Shealtiel begat Zerubbabel; and Zerubbabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor; and Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud; and Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

Count em up Hervey and if you can show 42, I'd like to see it in list form just like above. Otherwise, I'm getting tired of you insisting something, but not being able to show us. Your a smart man, please don't insult us.

Matthew 1:17-18 So all the generations from Abraham unto David are fourteen generations; and from David unto the carrying away to Babylon fourteen generations; and from the carrying away to Babylon unto the Christ fourteen generations. Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.

Are you also now redefining From and To?

 

[stovebolts]

This was shown to you as well Hervey... Count em up, 42 in total, but only 41 in count when you consider David is counted twice, which is in agreement with Matthew 1:17-18

Abraham to David------------David to Exile------------Restoration to Christ
_1-Abraham-------------------David----------------------Jeconiah
_2-Isaac-----------------------Solomon-------------------Shealtiel
_3-Jacob----------------------Rehoboam-----------------Zerubbabel
_4-Judah----------------------Abijah---------------------Abiud
_5-Perez----------------------Asa-------------------------Eliakim
_6-Hezron--------------------Jehoshaphat---------------Azor
_7-Ram-----------------------Joram----------------------Zadok
_8-Amminadab--------------Uzziah----------------------Achim
_9-Nashon--------------------Jotham--------------------Eliud
10-Salmon--------------------Ahaz-----------------------Eleazar
11-Boaz-----------------------Hezekiah------------------Matthan
12-Obed----------------------Manasseh------------------Jacob
13-Jesse----------------------Amon----------------------Joseph
14-David----------------------Josiah---------------------Jesus Christ

 

[Mysteryman]

In the book of Matthew , and in chapter one, it states that there are 14 generations + 14 generations + 14 generations = 42 generations. < Simple math

Hervey,
With all due respect, I can't understand why you won't see the simple truth.
Yes, 14+14+14=42, but as it's been shown to you, David is counted twice.
But if you won't see this, then let me show you in the simplest manner for you. I'll borrow from Ahua's list and modify it to save time.

1. Abraham
2.Isaac
3.Jacob
4.Judas and his brethren;
5.Phares and Zara of Thamar;
6.Esrom
7.Aram
8.Aminadab
9.Naasson
10.Salmon
11.Booz of Rachab
12.Obed of Ruth
13.Jesse
14.David the king;

So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations;

14. David the king
15.Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;
16.Roboam
17.Abia
18.Asa
19.Josaphat
20.Joram
21.Ozias
22.Joatham
23.Achaz
24.Ezekias
25.Manasses
26.Amon
27.Josias; (Lifetime overlapping the Babylonian exile)

and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations;

28.Jechonias and his brethren, (They were begotten) about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
29.And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel;
30.Zorobabel;
31.Abiud
32.Eliakim
33.Azor;
34.Sadoc
35.Achim
36.Eliud
37.Eleazar
38.Matthan
39.Jacob
40.Joseph the husband of Mary,
41.of whom was born Yeshua, who is called Messiah.


Matthew 1:2-16 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judah and his brethren; and Judah begat Perez and Zerah of Tamar; and Perez begat Hezron; and Hezron begat Ram; and Ram begat Amminadab; and Amminadab begat Nahshon; and Nahshon begat Salmon; and Salmon begat Boaz of Rahab; and Boaz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse; and Jesse begat David the king. And David begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Uriah; and Solomon begat Rehoboam; and Rehoboam begat Abijah; and Abijah begat Asa; and Asa begat Jehoshaphat; and Jehoshaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Uzziah; and Uzziah begat Jotham; and Jotham begat Ahaz; and Ahaz begat Hezekiah; and Hezekiah begat Manasseh; and Manasseh begat Amon; and Amon begat Josiah; and Josiah begat Jechoniah and his brethren, at the time of the carrying away to Babylon. And after the carrying away to Babylon, Jechoniah begat Shealtiel; and Shealtiel begat Zerubbabel; and Zerubbabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor; and Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud; and Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

Count em up Hervey and if you can show 42, I'd like to see it. Otherwise, I'm getting tired of you insisting something, but not being able to show us. Your a smart man, please don't insult us.

Hi Jeff:

I want to assure you that I have not insulted anyone. I have explain in detail , as well I have explained that you can not count King David twice. By counting King David twice as a generation, you are then manipulating the context of these scriptures. You must come up with each generation , which means that a different name qualifies as another generation. Counting King David twice is not a coherent way in which to solve this little, but simple mystery (secret).

From Abraham , which is a starting point, to David is fourteen generations.

Example : Abraham would be the first

1. Abraham, and -- King David would be the 14th.

Next -- From King David, which is a starting point list the next 14 generations

Example : Solomon would be the first

1. Solomon --- and Jechonias is the 14th generation

Next -- From Jechonias, which is a starting point list the next 14 generation

Example : Salathiel would be the first

1. Salathiel --- and Christ would be the 14th generation

But if you leave this Joseph as the husband of Mary, you will only end up with 13 generation in the third set of 14, and not 14 generations.

If you correct the error made by the translators, and thus render the word "aner" back to it proper state, then this "man" (aner) is the father of Mary.

Mary would then be the 41st generation and Christ would be the 42 generation.

Then the mystery is solved , and it then would be coherent and correct. Any other form or transfiguring this record in Matthew will end up with untruth.

I am going to honest with you. This little test by God, allows us, by God himself, to be put to the test , to see if we are workman , not being ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

As simple as this little test is, you can only imagine what a more difficult test would look like.

If this simple test can not be solved, then how is one going to solve some of the greater issues that face us when reading our bibles ?

Bless - IN Christ - MM

 

[Vic C.]

So as you can see, there was no divorce .

Oh no, I understood that bit. Thanks. What I wanted to know is why Joseph wanted to divorce her if he was her father. (I understand that Joseph never actually divorced her, but that the thought crossed his mind)

19 Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

Hi l'Chante,

Joseph toyed with the idea of divorcing Mary because he was betrothed to her and therefore, NOT her father. There is only ONE Joseph, the "husband" of Mary, not two.

There is only one person on the face of the earth that believes that the Joseph mentioned in Matt. 1:16 is Mary's father and the Joseph mentioned in verse 18 is her husband. That person just happens to be on this forum.

Please decide for yourself, common sense will lead you to the truth. You might want to read the previous posts in this thread. They will help with the Greek words.

and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.
17 So all the generations from Abraham to David were fourteen generations, and from David to the deportation to Babylon fourteen generations, and from the deportation to Babylon to the Christ fourteen generations.

Here is the first meeting of Joseph in Matthew's Gospel. he introduces him in the "genealogy of Jesus Christ" as the "husband of Mary". This interpretation of the word Greek word "aner" to the English word "husband" is UNIVERSAL among Greek scholars. That should be enough to convince you, but there's more...

18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child of the Holy Spirit; 19 and her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to send her away quietly. (Matthew (RSV) 1)

You'll notice Matthew did not introduce another person named "Joseph". He simply says he is the person that "had been betrothed" to Mary, which squares perfectly to the "husband of Mary" in verse 16. There is absolutely NO contextual reason to assume that Matthew is introducing another person, who Mary is betrothed to, who happens to have the same name as her father. Is Matthew trying to fool us?

Please don't get confused. Just do a little study and you will know the truth.

Amen Dad. I think we've had about enough of this misleading. Scripture is clear. Those who want to reinterpret and come up with these alternate interpretations are like those who attempt to revise history; they all have an agenda contrary to seeking the truth.

Chante, if you desire honest answers from sincere Christians, you best bet here is to ask in our Christian Talk and Advice section. We promise not to let the detractors affect your desire to seek and learn.

Vic

 

[Mysteryman]

Let me also point out what it states in Matthew 1:17

From Abraham = starting point --- to David is 14 generations -- Abraham being the first, David being the last (14th)

From David until the carrying away int Babylon are 14 generations --- Solomon being the first, Jechonias being the last (14th)

From the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ is 14 generations --- Salathiel being the first, Christ being the last (14th)

I pray this is helpful

IN Christ - MM

I came back and corrected my error in this post- (reason for the edit)

 

[stovebolts]

Hervey,
Your answers are not acceptable.

I want to assure you that I have not insulted anyone. I have explain in detail , as well I have explained that you can not count King David twice. By counting King David twice as a generation, you are then manipulating the context of these scriptures.

David was not counted twice as noted by the numerical value 14 to the left. These insults must stop.

I have created a template that you should be able to fill in the names based on the texts in Matthews account as provide in my previous post. I assume the kjv is acceptable?

Please fill out the template accordingly if you wish to lend any credibility and continue this thread.

I have taken the liberty to start you off.

1 Abraham
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42

 

[Mysteryman]

Hervey,
Your answers are not acceptable.

I have created a template that you should be able to fill in the names based on the texts in Matthews account as provide in my previous post. Please fill out the template accordingly if you wish to lend any credibility and continue this thread.

I have taken the liberty to start you off.

1 Abraham
2Isaac
3Jacob
4Judas
5Phares
6Esrom
7Aram
8Aminadab
9Naasson
10Salmon
11Booz
12Obed
13Jesse
14King David
15Solomon
16Roboam
17Abia
18Asa
19Josaphat
20Joram
21Ozias
22Joatham
23Achaz
24Ezekias
25Manasses
26Amon
27Josias
28Jechonias
29Salathiel
30Zorobabel
31Abiud
32Eliakim
33Azor
34Sadoc
35Achim
36Eliud
37Eleazar
38Matthan
39Jacob
40Joseph
41Mary
42Christ

Now here is where I need to apologize. In the first 14 generations you do count Abraham as the first. Thus making King David the 14the generation. I recounted and only came up with 13 generations if I left out Abraham and started counting from Isaac. My bad -

However, the fact still remains, that you can not count any person's name twice. This would leave you with only 41 generations and not 42. Not only that, but in verse 17 it tells us that from David unto the carrying away into Babylon is 14 generations , which would include Jechonias as the 14th generation. Then in verse 17 it goes on to state, from the carrying away into Babylon, which would start with Salathiel, which in a previous post I stated correctly that Salathiel was the first from the carrying away into Babylon.

However, the list that you gave me included King David twice, and this would then lack one generation from the list. There can not be only 41 generations. There must be 42 generations .

I apologize once again for the error I did make pertaining to the first list of 14 generations. There is no doubt that I miscounted the first 14 generations.

Now, before I end this post, I want you and all the readers to know, that I can see how you come up with 41 generations and count them as 42. You as well as the others, assume that King David can be counted twice within a paticular 14 generation list. So don't misunderstand me here. I do understand "how" you come up with your list and why. But, what many fail to see, is that there is no play on words here. There must be and is 14 generations from David unto the carrying away into Babylon. But if you include David and count Jechonias, (which you should) you would end up with 15 generations and not 14.

Bless - MM

 

[stovebolts]

Thank you Hervery,

Now, lets look at the next verses.

KJV: Matthew 1:17-18 So all the generations a from Abraham unto David are fourteen generations ; and b from David unto the carrying away to Babylon fourteen generations; and c from the carrying away to Babylon unto the Christ fourteen generations.


a from Abraham unto David are fourteen generations;
We see that names are used for the first 14.
1. Abraham
14. David

I agree, this is 14 Generations.

b from David unto the carrying away to Babylon fourteen generations;
14. David
28. Jechonias

Again, 14 Generations.

c from the carrying away to Babylon unto the Christ fourteen generations.
28 Jechonias
40. Joseph the husband of Mary,
41. Jesus

Using the same method per the language, there are 13 generations.

This is what you're proposing.

c from the carrying away to Babylon unto the Christ fourteen generations.
28 Jechonias
40. Joseph
41 Mary,
42. Jesus

This would be 14 Generations with conventional logic.

Hervey,
Do you see how clear this is to articulate a point? Much easier than insisting that there is a 'great mystery' etc. God is not the author of confusion.

Now I see your argument.
However, you do not account for this snipit...

before they came together she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. Wouldn't this be the start of a new generation?

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi Jeff:

I see how it would be easier for the reader, yes. However, I believe that we still disagree, and I would like to attempt to clear this up.

Here is what you said for "b" >

Copy and pasted :

b from David unto the carrying away to Babylon fourteen generations;
14. David
28. Jechonias

Again, 14 Generations.

Jeff, would you do me a favor and recount using King David and # 1 and Jechonias as # 14 and show me where you come up with 14 generations ? I come up with 15 generations using your formula .

Would you please accomadate my request to recount please ?

I fully understand that you counted David again as # 14 , so I am not blind - :D

However, this example will cause no end of confusion amongst those who read this example. Some will see David as the 14th , while others will see David as the 15th. The list you requested of me is a more clear and concise example , leaving no room for any confusion. Thanks for understanding .

 

[Mysteryman]

Thank you Hervery,

Now, lets look at the next verses.

KJV: Matthew 1:17-18 So all the generations a from Abraham unto David are fourteen generations ; and b from David unto the carrying away to Babylon fourteen generations; and c from the carrying away to Babylon unto the Christ fourteen generations.


a from Abraham unto David are fourteen generations;
We see that names are used for the first 14.
1. Abraham
14. David

I agree, this is 14 Generations.

b from David unto the carrying away to Babylon fourteen generations;
14. David
28. Jechonias

Again, 14 Generations.

c from the carrying away to Babylon unto the Christ fourteen generations.
28 Jechonias
40. Joseph the husband of Mary,
41. Jesus

Using the same method per the language, there are 13 generations.

This is what you're proposing.

c from the carrying away to Babylon unto the Christ fourteen generations.
28 Jechonias
40. Joseph
41 Mary,
42. Jesus

This would be 14 Generations with conventional logic.

Hervey,
Do you see how clear this is to articulate a point? Much easier than insisting that there is a 'great mystery' etc. God is not the author of confusion.

Now I see your argument.
However, you do not account for this snipit...

before they came together she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. Wouldn't this be the start of a new generation?

Hi Jeff:

I count Christ as the 14th generation . It does say in verse 17 - "from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ is 14 generations. This list of 14 generations starts with Salathiel and then Christ as the 14th generation.

 

[Mysteryman]

This was shown to you as well Hervey... Count em up, 42 in total, but only 41 in count when you consider David is counted twice, which is in agreement with Matthew 1:17-18

Abraham to David------------David to Exile------------Restoration to Christ
_1-Abraham-------------------David----------------------Jeconiah
_2-Isaac-----------------------Solomon-------------------Shealtiel
_3-Jacob----------------------Rehoboam-----------------Zerubbabel
_4-Judah----------------------Abijah---------------------Abiud
_5-Perez----------------------Asa-------------------------Eliakim
_6-Hezron--------------------Jehoshaphat---------------Azor
_7-Ram-----------------------Joram----------------------Zadok
_8-Amminadab--------------Uzziah----------------------Achim
_9-Nashon--------------------Jotham--------------------Eliud
10-Salmon--------------------Ahaz-----------------------Eleazar
11-Boaz-----------------------Hezekiah------------------Matthan
12-Obed----------------------Manasseh------------------Jacob
13-Jesse----------------------Amon----------------------Joseph
14-David----------------------Josiah---------------------Jesus Christ

Hi Jeff:

I am carrying this list forward in our conversation, in order to show you as well as others , that this list is very confusing and very inaccurate.

# 1. You can't count King David twice
#2. The second generations ends with Jechonia , not Josiah.
#3. This would leave the last 14 generations with only 13 generations

Thanks again for understanding.

 

[stovebolts]

b from David unto the carrying away to Babylon fourteen generations;
14. David
28. Jechonias

Again, 14 Generations.

Jeff, would you do me a favor and recount using King David and # 1 and Jechonias as # 14 and show me where you come up with 14 generations ? I come up with 15 generations using your formula .

Would you please accomadate my request to recount please ?

Note a problem, and I'm glad you caught that. ;)

If we look at the verbiage in Mt. 1:17-18, it explicitly states the "Start" "Stop" criteria. You will also note that it is human reasoning that adds the three sets of 14 to a total of 42, not scripture.

Let's break this down again ok?

Scripture states:
(a) from Abraham unto David are fourteen generations;
We see that names are used for the first 14.
1. Abraham
14. David

We agree that Scripture is clear that from Abraham to David are 14 generations.
Thus, Abraham is the first generation and David is the 14th Generation.

Now then, according to your list from 1 to 42, Solomon is 15th and starts the next set of 14 and thus, Solomon begins the count.

But this is not what Scripture says. Like the above text where it explicitly states that Abraham is our starting point, Scripture is also explicit where our second starting point begins. Had Scripture wanted us to start our generations with Solomon, it would have read "from Solomon unto the carrying away to Babylon fourteen generations;", not "from David unto the carrying away to Babylon fourteen generations;"

By the clear reading of scripture, David is the end of our first 14 generations, and is also the beginning of our second set of 14 generations.

(b) from David unto the carrying away to Babylon fourteen generations;
14. David
28. Jechonias

Do you see the conundrum? Scripture explicitly states that from David (starting point) to the 14the generation as denoted by "carrying away to Babylon". Thus, #28 Jechonias is incorrect ;)

Now then, when we start, as Scripture says (from David unto the...) from David, we see that Jechonias, though 28 on your list, is actually the incorrect generation. Rather, Josiah (27 on your vertical list) ends our 14th generation when we count from David to Josiah.

Now then, Scripture becomes a little obscure with the third set as it starts by simply saying "unto the carrying away to Babylon", though it is clear that we end at Christ.

But before we delve into the "unto the carrying away to Babylon", let us first be clear, where Scripture is clear.

Do you agree with how the KJV translated Scriptures to clearly say:
1. from Abraham unto David are fourteen generations;
2. from David unto the carrying away to Babylon fourteen generations;

 

[Mysteryman]

b from David unto the carrying away to Babylon fourteen generations;
14. David
28. Jechonias

Again, 14 Generations.

Jeff, would you do me a favor and recount using King David and # 1 and Jechonias as # 14 and show me where you come up with 14 generations ? I come up with 15 generations using your formula .

Would you please accomadate my request to recount please ?

Note a problem, and I'm glad you caught that. ;)

If we look at the verbiage in Mt. 1:17-18, it explicitly states the "Start" "Stop" criteria. You will also note that it is human reasoning that adds the three sets of 14 to a total of 42, not scripture.

Let's break this down again ok?

Scripture states:
(a) from Abraham unto David are fourteen generations;
We see that names are used for the first 14.
1. Abraham
14. David

We agree that Scripture is clear that from Abraham to David are 14 generations.
Thus, Abraham is the first generation and David is the 14th Generation.

Now then, according to your list from 1 to 42, Solomon is 15th and starts the next set of 14 and thus, Solomon begins the count.

But this is not what Scripture says. Like the above text where it explicitly states that Abraham is our starting point, Scripture is also explicit where our second starting point begins. Had Scripture wanted us to start our generations with Solomon, it would have read "from Solomon unto the carrying away to Babylon fourteen generations;", not "from David unto the carrying away to Babylon fourteen generations;"

By the clear reading of scripture, David is the end of our first 14 generations, and is also the beginning of our second set of 14 generations.

(b) from David unto the carrying away to Babylon fourteen generations;
14. David
28. Jechonias

Do you see the conundrum? Scripture explicitly states that from David (starting point) to the 14the generation as denoted by "carrying away to Babylon". Thus, #28 Jechonias is incorrect ;)

Now then, when we start, as Scripture says (from David unto the...) from David, we see that Jechonias, though 28 on your list, is actually the incorrect generation. Rather, Josiah (27 on your vertical list) ends our 14th generation when we count from David to Josiah.

Now then, Scripture becomes a little obscure with the third set as it starts by simply saying "unto the carrying away to Babylon", though it is clear that we end at Christ.

But before we delve into the "unto the carrying away to Babylon", let us first be clear, where Scripture is clear.

Do you agree with how the KJV translated Scriptures to clearly say:
1. from Abraham unto David are fourteen generations;
2. from David unto the carrying away to Babylon fourteen generations;

Hi Jeff:

Thanks for the clarifications.

# 1. I agree with
# 2. I disagree with

The reason I disagree with # 2 is simple. You state that the third set of generations is a little obscure on where it starts. Yet, I believe that where the third set of generations starts is imparative , and clears up any confusion as to when the second set of generations ends, and the third set of generations begins.

Again, in verse 17 it states - "from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ is 14 generations. Jechonias was begat (begotten) before the carrying away into Babylon. In verse 11 , this is where there seems to be a discrepancy in our understanding.

In verse 11 it states - "And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon. < This is not a specific time given here. It is obvious that Josias begat Jechonias just prior to going into Babylon. < Here you might disagree with me, and I would understand your disagreement. But for the moment lets continue on with what is said in verse 17 - "from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations". We must agree here that this is saying that they were in Babylon at this point.

And as I said before, which is taking everything into concsideration, one can not count King David twice. which is what you would be doing if you start the second list of generations from David.

Now, lets look at this from two points of view. Your point and then mine.

If your point of view is that Jechonias starts the third list of generations it would look like this >

1. Jechonias
2. Salathiel
3. Zorobabel
4. Abiud
5. Eliakim
6. Azor
7. Sadoc
8. Achim
9. Eliud
10. Eleazar
11. Matthan
12. Jacob
13. Joseph < Assuming he is the husband of Mary
14. Christ

So as far as your third list, you would indeed end up with fourteen generations.

Now my list >

1. Salathiel
2. Zorobabel
3. Abiud
4. Eliakim
5. Azor
6. Sadoc
7. Achim
8. Eliud
9. Eleazar
10. Matthan
11. Jacob
12. Joseph < Assuming that he is the "man" (aner) or father of Mary
13. Mary
14. Christ

AS you can see, mine indeed fits as well.

So, where is the discrepancy ? It appears to me, that the discrepancy is within the second list of generations , which in turn changes the third list of generations. Agreed so far ?

This all can be cleared up by looking at and agreeing with what it states in verse 17 - "from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations".

Both of us can make our lists fit our intended purpose. However, where we would disagree, is that you can accept that there are only 41 generations, of which I myself can not accept this interpretation.

The reason I can not accept your interpretation is because of all the discrepancies within your explanations. They seem valid enough, but many things would have to be assumed. The first being, is that you can count David as a generation twice, of which I clearly disagree with. The second reason, is because of when one starts the third list of generations. Clearly, the third list starts "after" they were carried away into Babylon, and it is clear that Jechonias was begat (begotten) just prior to going into Babylon.

As I said before, a generation is always according to a different name given. Ending the first list with David is fine and acceptable. However, starting the second list with King David is not acceptable, because then you are counting King David as two generations. And since David was counted in the first list, he then can not be counted in the second list, and still end up with 14 generations.

Now I know what you have explained and I fully understand your argument that the wording allows you to do this. But this is still just not an end to the fullness of our conversation here. We still need to deal with this word "aner". Yes, the translators gave us the word "husband" in verse 16 and in verse 19. And yes, the translators translated this word 50 times as husband. Yet, this word was properly translated 156 times as "man" or "men". And if you look at the verse from which the word "aner" was properly translated either "man" or men", you will notice that the word "husband" can not be translated into these verses. Example : Luke 8:41 - "there came a man(aner) named Jairus , and he was a ruler of the synagogue: and he fell down at Jesus' feet, and besought him that he would come into his house" < Would you or anyone else like to change this word "man" to the word "husband" here ? I didn't think so.

I have explained in an earlier post, that the greek word "aner" is always in --- relationship too . The contexual wording tells us which "man" (aner) this is . This man in Luke 8:41 is in relationship to being a ruler of the synagogue. The same holds true with all 156 usages of this word "aner" when translated either "man" or "men". But the same holds true, even when the translators , instead of translating, interpreted this word "aner" as "husband" and not as "man, which is what they should have done !

This holds true even in Matt. 1:18 and 19 , as verse 18 tells us who this "man" (aner) is in verse 19. In verse 18 it shows us, that Mary was "espoused" to Joseph. < Here again, the word "aner" in verse 19 , which was improperly translated as "husband", is in relationship to Mary in verse 18. Even though we know that this "man" (aner) is her husband. The translators were interpreting instead of translating.

Bless - IN Christ - MM

 

[Ashua]

It does not say:

"So, from Abraham to Christ there are forty and two generations."

It says from Abraham to DAVID there are fourteen.

(you can count them up just the first fourteen and it checks out)

And from DAVID to the carrying away into Babylon there are fourteen.

(If you isolate the names from David to Babylon as the scripture states, there are fourteen and it checks out.)

And from Babylon unto Christ are fourteen.

(Go ahead. count those names and youll reach fourteen)

SO it is not 14+14+14=42
But it IS
grouping 1= 14
grouping 2= 14
grouping 3= 14

David is attributed to the end of the first group and reused as the beginning of the second. The scripture clearly proclaims this. To argue otherwise is willful ignorance; even as Israel (as a whole) has maintained blindness of their Messiah, despite the clear proclamation of the prophets.

It is plain that the genealogy of Christ is accurate in Matthew 1; that David is counted twice by groupings and partitions that break the genealogy down as the Tanakh is partition into three (Law, prophets, writings) and the New Covenant is grouped into three (Gospels, Epistles, Revelation) If the number of books in the Bible wasnt divisible by three, and also of each testament not divisible by three, I would make a direct comparison.

For those who strain at gnats and find errors where they are not; they would do well to take sound advice:

"But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain." -Titus 3:9

 

[francisdesales]

It does not say:

"So, from Abraham to Christ there are forty and two generations."

It says from Abraham to DAVID there are fourteen.

(you can count them up just the first fourteen and it checks out)

And from DAVID to the carrying away into Babylon there are fourteen.

(If you isolate the names from David to Babylon as the scripture states, there are fourteen and it checks out.)

And from Babylon unto Christ are fourteen.

(Go ahead. count those names and youll reach fourteen)

SO it is not 14+14+14=42
But it IS
grouping 1= 14
grouping 2= 14
grouping 3= 14

Exactly. The Bible doesn't say 42 generations, but 3 groups of 14, with two groups overlapping so that the doubly perfect 14 number is achieved. This is obviously a literary tool, not a strict prophesy, as the OT never speaks of "42 generations to the Messiah". Another case of improper jumping to conclusions...

I cannot believe that someone on the face of this earth is claiming that Joseph is the father of Mary. When does the nonsense stop??? :bigfrown

Regards

 

[jasoncran]

hey jesus was an inbred child then.