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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join Hidden in Him and For His Glory for discussions on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/become-a-vessel-of-honor-part-2.112306/
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Is Second Coming IMMINENT?
- Thread starter JM
- Start date
T
tarnaak
Guest
Ya know this got me to thinking,
If Christ said he would return like a thief in the night, then knowing he would come at the end of a trib period would seem to conflict with the statement.
Any thoughts on this?
:-?
If Christ said he would return like a thief in the night, then knowing he would come at the end of a trib period would seem to conflict with the statement.
Any thoughts on this?
:-?
Judy
Member
- Nov 3, 2002
- 1,836
- 9
I don't believe that the Lord's return is imminent, there are thing that has to happen before His return, as shown in Matt. and Rev.
Matthew 24:3. Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?''
4. And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you.
5. "For many will come in My name, saying, `I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.
6. "And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7. "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.
8. "All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9. "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.
10. "And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.
11. "Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
12. "And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.
13. "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
14. "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
15. "Therefore when you see the `abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place'' (whoever reads, let him understand),
16. "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
17. "Let him who is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house.
18. "And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.
19. "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those with nursing babies in those days!
20. "And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.
21. "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22. "And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.
23. "Then if anyone says to you, `Look, here is the Christ!' or `There!' do not believe it.
24. "For false christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
25. "See, I have told you beforehand.
26. "Therefore if they say to you, `Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or `Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it.
27. "For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
28. "For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
29. "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30. "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31. "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Revelation 6:1. Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, "Come and see.''
2. And I looked, and behold, a white horse. And he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.
3. When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, "Come and see.''
4. And another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword.
5. When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come and see.'' And I looked, and behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand.
6. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine.''
7. When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, "Come and see.''
8. And I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.
9. When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?''
11. And a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. 12. I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.
13. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.
14. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
15. And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
16. and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17. "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?''
I believe that the Lord will return for us after the seals are opened and before God pours out his wrath. Which in my opinion the trumpet and bowl judgement is the wrath of God, not the seal judgement.
Compare what the Lord said in Matt. to what was said in Rev.
Matthew 24:3. Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?''
4. And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you.
5. "For many will come in My name, saying, `I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.
6. "And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7. "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.
8. "All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9. "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.
10. "And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.
11. "Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
12. "And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.
13. "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
14. "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
15. "Therefore when you see the `abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place'' (whoever reads, let him understand),
16. "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
17. "Let him who is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house.
18. "And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.
19. "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those with nursing babies in those days!
20. "And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.
21. "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22. "And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.
23. "Then if anyone says to you, `Look, here is the Christ!' or `There!' do not believe it.
24. "For false christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
25. "See, I have told you beforehand.
26. "Therefore if they say to you, `Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or `Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it.
27. "For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
28. "For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
29. "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30. "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31. "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Revelation 6:1. Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, "Come and see.''
2. And I looked, and behold, a white horse. And he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.
3. When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, "Come and see.''
4. And another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword.
5. When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come and see.'' And I looked, and behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand.
6. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine.''
7. When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, "Come and see.''
8. And I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.
9. When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?''
11. And a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. 12. I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.
13. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.
14. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
15. And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
16. and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17. "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?''
I believe that the Lord will return for us after the seals are opened and before God pours out his wrath. Which in my opinion the trumpet and bowl judgement is the wrath of God, not the seal judgement.
Compare what the Lord said in Matt. to what was said in Rev.
tarnaak wrote:
Its not a conflict. Notice I didn't name a day or an hour. 1 Thessalonians 5:3 says "While people are saying, “Peace and safetyâ€, destruction will
come on them suddenly, as labour pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
& 1 Thessalonians 5:4 "But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief."
Through reading and studying God's Word we are given a lot of information about what is to come. We are able to piece together a timeline of events based on the evidence found therein (the Bible).
Those who are not ready, those who don't believe in God, and those who are oblivious to the times we live in will be the ones who will be surprised at Christ's return.
Matthew 16 talks about the Pharisees and Sadduccess demanding a sign. Much like people today who can see the warning signs but they can't understand what is to come. Why? They are spiritually blind.
Its not a conflict. Notice I didn't name a day or an hour. 1 Thessalonians 5:3 says "While people are saying, “Peace and safetyâ€, destruction will
come on them suddenly, as labour pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
& 1 Thessalonians 5:4 "But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief."
Through reading and studying God's Word we are given a lot of information about what is to come. We are able to piece together a timeline of events based on the evidence found therein (the Bible).
Those who are not ready, those who don't believe in God, and those who are oblivious to the times we live in will be the ones who will be surprised at Christ's return.
Matthew 16 talks about the Pharisees and Sadduccess demanding a sign. Much like people today who can see the warning signs but they can't understand what is to come. Why? They are spiritually blind.
J
jeremiah
Guest
Beloved
there are two possibilities of the meaning that he will come as a thief in the night.
The first being that at any moment we could die! We are all only a breath away from death. And at the moment of our death, as far as WE are concerned, it IS judgement day. Why?, because at the moment of death we step out of time and enter eternity.
Either we're going to face God in all his wrath and will be sentenced to everlasting punishment( whatever God deems that to be).
Or we will face God in all his glory as our savior and will be given our new glorified spiritual bodies, and will ever be with the Lord in the new heaven and earth.
In this case he will come as a thief in the night, and catch us off gaurd.
The second meaning could be that the battle is in the arena that can not be seen, that is the war that is being waged between evil in good in heavenly places.
If this is the case then we won't be able to see this battle, nor will we be able to see any PHYSICAL signs with the eye. but that doesn't mean we can't know the end is near because God says he will not do anything without revealing it to his prophets first.
So the key may be in the unseen arena, and we may see it take place as it did in Noahs Day when the whole world was caught off gaurd except for those who God chose to reveal it to.
God bless! ~Jeremiah~
there are two possibilities of the meaning that he will come as a thief in the night.
The first being that at any moment we could die! We are all only a breath away from death. And at the moment of our death, as far as WE are concerned, it IS judgement day. Why?, because at the moment of death we step out of time and enter eternity.
Either we're going to face God in all his wrath and will be sentenced to everlasting punishment( whatever God deems that to be).
Or we will face God in all his glory as our savior and will be given our new glorified spiritual bodies, and will ever be with the Lord in the new heaven and earth.
In this case he will come as a thief in the night, and catch us off gaurd.
The second meaning could be that the battle is in the arena that can not be seen, that is the war that is being waged between evil in good in heavenly places.
If this is the case then we won't be able to see this battle, nor will we be able to see any PHYSICAL signs with the eye. but that doesn't mean we can't know the end is near because God says he will not do anything without revealing it to his prophets first.
So the key may be in the unseen arena, and we may see it take place as it did in Noahs Day when the whole world was caught off gaurd except for those who God chose to reveal it to.
God bless! ~Jeremiah~
- Thread starter
- #8
tarnaak said:
Notice this, If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. Rev. 3:3 To me, Jesus is saying you'll never know the exact time but if you watch you can have an some idea when He is coming.
Scofield
Judy
Member
- Nov 3, 2002
- 1,836
- 9
Scofield said:
With the verses in my post above , Jesus told his diciples signs to look for. Just as in the Old Testament there were signs pointing to the Messiah, they will be signs pointing to his return.
Where it is true that we will not know the day nor the hour....Jesus compares the beginning of the signs with birth pang ...it is like when a women who is pregnant , the Doctor can give her a due date, and sometimes with a great deal of accuracy he can be right on the day the child will be born. But he can never tell her at what hour her child will be born. The samething with the signs of Christ coming, we know what to look for but the very hour of His arrival we cannot know. Not until we hear the Trumpet, and then in the twinkle of an eye we will all be changed.
So there will be signs pointing to Christ return and we should be waiting and watching for then.
Again some of the signs are in the verses above.
In my opinion, when He speaks of like a thief in the night, I don't believe He is saying that He is going to sneak in and take us out of the world. Like some teach that cars will be abandoned...ect. and that millions of people will just disapeared. This is not scriptural.
He is saying , for us to be prepared for his coming, and not to let it take us by surprise. :wink:
J
jeremiah
Guest
Dear beloved
Before Christ can come, the sheep must gathered. The stones of Gods house must be put in place ( The Church!)
The invitations to the wedding must be given out.
The harvest must be collected up.
In other words... when the last of the elect have shown the Gospel of salvation, and have become saved, THEN THE END WILL COME!
God bless! ~jeremiah~
Before Christ can come, the sheep must gathered. The stones of Gods house must be put in place ( The Church!)
The invitations to the wedding must be given out.
The harvest must be collected up.
In other words... when the last of the elect have shown the Gospel of salvation, and have become saved, THEN THE END WILL COME!
God bless! ~jeremiah~
S
steve6521
Guest
He said in Mt 24:34 He would be back within a generation. I think He did it! ( or He lied)
Jesus came back in the same manner as he left - He came back in the clouds - We won't see him physically standing in the air using our TV sets around the world.
This may get another discussion if I'm not just written off ! hehe
Jesus came back in the same manner as he left - He came back in the clouds - We won't see him physically standing in the air using our TV sets around the world.
This may get another discussion if I'm not just written off ! hehe
Judy
Member
- Nov 3, 2002
- 1,836
- 9
steve6521 said:
What he was saying is the generation that would see the things he just discribed happening... like the abomination of desolation, it is that generation Jesus is talking about. Not the generation He is talking to.
And Jesus hasn't came back in the clouds.
- Rev. 1:Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen[/*:m:72492]
S
steve6521
Guest
Judy said:
Hi Judy !
Before you laugh me out of here too... Please give a fair listen to me.
My first reaction to the idea that Jesus came back was pretty one of the reaction of the Vic above. I laughed to myself as well and thought this is absolutely ridiculous and would think as you may as well, ' What an idiot or maybe what to heck has this guy got himself into. This should be easy to disprove if indeed I should waste my time even looking at this idea.
Well I used to be in all the futuristic ideas - I read all the Hal Lindsay books I could buy back in the Seventies. I have read stuff from Lahay, Hunt, Ice and my favourite for a while was Lalonde. I have read books form Walvoord, Commentaries all looking at Mt 24. I had made myself fed up with Escatology and got to the point where I couldn't make sense between pretrib - But why do some verses seem distant - and post-trib but what about the verses that seem soon to them. I read on both views and then then tried the book on prewrath. I found I was hopelessly lost between all these views. A cursory read of this site confirms the different views back and forth.
What I found was that the bulk of my commenataries kept saying Mt 24 was yet future but the more scholarly or older ones such as
Lenski, Robertson, Nicoll, Jamieson Fausset Brown Matthew Henry gave the possibility that many or possibly all the events of Mt 24 happened.
Wow even my futurist slanted notes in my NIV Study Bible acknowledges that Mt 24 may have happened. In the parallel account in the notes of Lk 21:32 NIV Study bible
"'this generation' I f the reference is tho the destruction of Jerusalem, which occurred about 40 years after Jesus spoke these words, 'generation' is used in its ordinary sense of a normal life span. All these things were fulfilled in a preliminary sense. '
Connecting present events is a past time for many like the style of how Jack Van Impe does it .
I came across this verse MJt 24:34 and have seen how people have tried splitting up the Ch because we 'know ' Jesus didn't come back. That is pure foolishness to put it nicely.
Ah It must mean not a generation but a 'race'. But why didn't they say, it's the generation that sees these events happening.
Here is what Jesus said without putting any words in his mouth and not changing anything according to the scriptures
Truly Truly I say to you that no way will passed the generation this until al these things happen "
straight from the Greek .
It does not say 'The generation that sees these things but the reference, the time frame, the sand going through the hourglass that is not influenced by the events outside, is itself the TIME KEEPER. The generation going by is the reference, the time keeper, and not the other way around.
Now could all of Mt 24 have happened?
Impossible you say. What about the sun going dark, the moon red, all these wars going on etc. and especially the Son of Man coming back. Come on !!
Well besides Jesus coming back - Could these events have happenned ?
If you have not taken the time to read "The Jewish Wars' by Josephus - It is very difficult to describe in a few words what happenned but there are many commentators that could see all these events as already happenned.
Nations against nations - the civil wars were incredible and terrible - 20000 killed in one town and another 15000 killed in another. In another - 20000. The amount of times Josephus says something like 20000 killed here, again and again is incredible. He said something like a million were killed. He talks about how around Jerusalem the land was stripped bare because the trees were needed to crucify tons of Jews at the time. Famine got so bad a mother was found eating her child. There was no food to be found anywhere. There were many earthquakes, false prophets. The christians were killed and persecuted. The Temple was desecrated by the Roman army. Their ensigns were put in the Temple and them being Roman Gentile) and going in the Temple was bad enough(desecration). People were getting slaughtered everywhere and those still alive were stressed out either about being killed or starving to death.
The vultures - eagles ( same word in Greek -eagles were the ensigne of the Roman army - slaughters the Jews)
Josephus records some stange events that even he finds weird. ( Let us leave from here, Temple door moving etc.)
That generation DID see these things even if we want to look at MT 24:34 this way.
EXCEPT some of the following is really difficult to to swallow :
(The tough ones !)
Sun darkened, moon red, and of course The Son of Man coming back.
On the other hand if all this is yet future - What in the world does it matter telling me - Me in Canada or you I guess in the US - that the ones over there in the middle east - the ones in ancient Judea - get ready to run to the mountains! Here;s your sign - Lk 21 When YOU see the armies surrounding YOU - you know it's time to get out of there.
( There is evidence that the Christians did escape back then to Pella.)
What to heck should we do? There is no where to run and it happens oever there anyways. What difference does it make to me if its the Sabbath or not ? ( TO them yes - they would easily be spotted illegally carry their stuff and taking too many steps and the city gates were normally shut making escape difficult)
(By the way I believe there is no reason to separate the disciples questions- there is no punctuation to separate them and makes better sense together.)
I'll keep going if you wish. I don't want to ramble on so much that this may get boring for some. The possibility for the tough ones are I believe still there.
steve ( still looking for answers too !
[/b][/u]
R
reznwerks
Guest
not coming
by Mike McClellan
"The Bible tells us that Jesus Christ spoke to His disciples 2000 years ago, telling them that he would return, that he was "coming again". His promise remains one of the most central themes in the myriad of Christian belief systems. Except for a very small minority, Christians still believe he is coming again, the Parousia, the rapture. Is His promise still valid? Has He yet to return? Or did He make the promise only to break it in the lifetime of those to whom He spoke?
The Promise
The following is taken from the Bible. All verses are from the King James version unless otherwise noted. The Bible references are hyperlinks and will take the reader to the New International Version quotation if so desired.
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Fatherwith his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death*, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Matthew 16: 27-28
The language is clear. Jesus told his disciples that some of them would not taste of death - would not die - before he returned, until he came into his kingdom.
If you've been mistakenly taught that the verses above refer to Christ's Transfiguration, read Revelation 20:12 which coincides with Matthew 16:27 in describing a Judgment Day scenario:
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened:and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged outof those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:12
Christ was, again, clearly referring to his second coming before that present generation passed.
Again, Jesus tells his disciples:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the cloudsof heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass*, till all these things be fulfilled.
Matthew 24:30-34
Again, Christ describes certain events and warns those who are listening to him that "This generation shall not pass*, till all these things be fulfilled". He is speaking about their present generation.
Although the above scriptures clearly convey that Christ was talking about his present generation, there are many other references in the New Testament indicating that the writers of the Gospels and Epistles as well as the followers of Christ firmly believed that Jesus was speaking of their present generation and not some future time hundreds or thousands of years down the road.
Jesus spoke to his followers again about his coming according to the book of Matthew:
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Matthew 10:22-23
The cities of Israel were not so numerous that it would have taken a fleeing man 2000 years to go over or through them. No man could live that long. Christ said before a fleeing man could go through all the cities, he would come. Again, Christ was speaking of his return in that generation. He left no doubt as to his meaning in this passage.
What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short*. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away.
(1 Corinthians 7:29-31 - NIV)
Paul tells the Corinthians that time is short and that the world in its present form is passing away. His words have a strong sense of urgency, rather than being a mere suggestion.Paul believes the world is presently passing away. He is not speaking of some event which could take place 2000 years in the future.
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep*, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality
1 Corinthians 15:50-53
In this passage, Paul tells the Corinthians We shall not all sleep. Again, Paul is convinced and is convincing the Corinthians that the second coming of Christ is imminent in that generation and not all who hear his words will "sleep" or die prior to Christ's coming.
We Which Are Alive And Shall Remain
In the following portion of the letter which Paul writes to the Thessalonians he discusses those who remain alive in the present tense.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain* unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain* shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
More Scripture Indicating Immediate Urgency
The New Testament is abundantly filled with references to the immediacy of Christ's return.
But the end of all things is at hand:* be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
1 Peter 4:7
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days* spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things...
Hebrews 1:1-2
In 1 John, the false prophets foretold by Jesus who existed in that time period to give notice of the end times are discussed.
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God...
1 John 4:1-3
According to the Bible, Jesus Christ said he would return in the generation in which he lived. He said the sign of the Son of Man would appear in heaven. He said all the tribes of Israel would mourn. He said the tribes would see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. He said he would send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet. The angels were to gather the "elect" from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. All of these things were to have happened in his generation. They didn't happen.
Jesus did not return as he said he would. He did not return as his disciples believed and preached that he would. Jesus didn't come in the disciples generation. He didn't come in any generation. The disciples all died. Jesus' promise was broken. The disciples believed and lived a false hope.
Jesus didn't come then and he isn't coming in the future. Those who cling to the broken promise and false hope of his return will be just as disappointed as the disciples who died looking in vain for the second coming of their Christ.
He isn't coming again. "
by Mike McClellan
"The Bible tells us that Jesus Christ spoke to His disciples 2000 years ago, telling them that he would return, that he was "coming again". His promise remains one of the most central themes in the myriad of Christian belief systems. Except for a very small minority, Christians still believe he is coming again, the Parousia, the rapture. Is His promise still valid? Has He yet to return? Or did He make the promise only to break it in the lifetime of those to whom He spoke?
The Promise
The following is taken from the Bible. All verses are from the King James version unless otherwise noted. The Bible references are hyperlinks and will take the reader to the New International Version quotation if so desired.
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Fatherwith his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death*, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Matthew 16: 27-28
The language is clear. Jesus told his disciples that some of them would not taste of death - would not die - before he returned, until he came into his kingdom.
If you've been mistakenly taught that the verses above refer to Christ's Transfiguration, read Revelation 20:12 which coincides with Matthew 16:27 in describing a Judgment Day scenario:
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened:and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged outof those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:12
Christ was, again, clearly referring to his second coming before that present generation passed.
Again, Jesus tells his disciples:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the cloudsof heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass*, till all these things be fulfilled.
Matthew 24:30-34
Again, Christ describes certain events and warns those who are listening to him that "This generation shall not pass*, till all these things be fulfilled". He is speaking about their present generation.
Although the above scriptures clearly convey that Christ was talking about his present generation, there are many other references in the New Testament indicating that the writers of the Gospels and Epistles as well as the followers of Christ firmly believed that Jesus was speaking of their present generation and not some future time hundreds or thousands of years down the road.
Jesus spoke to his followers again about his coming according to the book of Matthew:
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Matthew 10:22-23
The cities of Israel were not so numerous that it would have taken a fleeing man 2000 years to go over or through them. No man could live that long. Christ said before a fleeing man could go through all the cities, he would come. Again, Christ was speaking of his return in that generation. He left no doubt as to his meaning in this passage.
What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short*. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away.
(1 Corinthians 7:29-31 - NIV)
Paul tells the Corinthians that time is short and that the world in its present form is passing away. His words have a strong sense of urgency, rather than being a mere suggestion.Paul believes the world is presently passing away. He is not speaking of some event which could take place 2000 years in the future.
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep*, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality
1 Corinthians 15:50-53
In this passage, Paul tells the Corinthians We shall not all sleep. Again, Paul is convinced and is convincing the Corinthians that the second coming of Christ is imminent in that generation and not all who hear his words will "sleep" or die prior to Christ's coming.
We Which Are Alive And Shall Remain
In the following portion of the letter which Paul writes to the Thessalonians he discusses those who remain alive in the present tense.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain* unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain* shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
More Scripture Indicating Immediate Urgency
The New Testament is abundantly filled with references to the immediacy of Christ's return.
But the end of all things is at hand:* be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
1 Peter 4:7
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days* spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things...
Hebrews 1:1-2
In 1 John, the false prophets foretold by Jesus who existed in that time period to give notice of the end times are discussed.
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God...
1 John 4:1-3
According to the Bible, Jesus Christ said he would return in the generation in which he lived. He said the sign of the Son of Man would appear in heaven. He said all the tribes of Israel would mourn. He said the tribes would see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. He said he would send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet. The angels were to gather the "elect" from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. All of these things were to have happened in his generation. They didn't happen.
Jesus did not return as he said he would. He did not return as his disciples believed and preached that he would. Jesus didn't come in the disciples generation. He didn't come in any generation. The disciples all died. Jesus' promise was broken. The disciples believed and lived a false hope.
Jesus didn't come then and he isn't coming in the future. Those who cling to the broken promise and false hope of his return will be just as disappointed as the disciples who died looking in vain for the second coming of their Christ.
He isn't coming again. "
Vic C.
Member
- Mar 16, 2003
- 18,227
- 4
Interesting peices, both Steve and Rez. And Steve, I wasn't laughing at you. I was laughing at the notion that Jesus may have lied. We know He is incapable of that. So...what is the story here?
Since my question wasn't answered, it is still valid. Jesus' second coming would have been much more grandeur than His first advent. It surely would have been recorded...somewhere. So why don't we know about it? Because it hasn't happened yet. Which brings up the verse Judy quoted...
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
I understand there was war and persecution going on at that time, along with famine and all the rest. That all pales in comparison to what lies ahead. Imagne it happening now, with 6 billion+ people on Earth. Imagine the devestation? It will truely be of Biblical proportion.
Amd don't forget...
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Why would Jesus warn about this? After all, they were under Roman rule. These things were going on all the time in that era. No...we are warned about these things because they will happen in a time when the world will be lulled into a false sense of peace and safety.
1 Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1 Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1 Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Plus many scholars feel that Revelation was penned in early AD 90's, which is well past the Jerusalem Diaspora. And as we know, the Seals almost perfectly align with events in Matthew 24.
No, Jesus' prophesy has not been fully fullfilled because Jesus has not returned yet...as He promised.
Since my question wasn't answered, it is still valid. Jesus' second coming would have been much more grandeur than His first advent. It surely would have been recorded...somewhere. So why don't we know about it? Because it hasn't happened yet. Which brings up the verse Judy quoted...
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
I understand there was war and persecution going on at that time, along with famine and all the rest. That all pales in comparison to what lies ahead. Imagne it happening now, with 6 billion+ people on Earth. Imagine the devestation? It will truely be of Biblical proportion.
Amd don't forget...
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Why would Jesus warn about this? After all, they were under Roman rule. These things were going on all the time in that era. No...we are warned about these things because they will happen in a time when the world will be lulled into a false sense of peace and safety.
1 Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1 Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1 Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Plus many scholars feel that Revelation was penned in early AD 90's, which is well past the Jerusalem Diaspora. And as we know, the Seals almost perfectly align with events in Matthew 24.
No, Jesus' prophesy has not been fully fullfilled because Jesus has not returned yet...as He promised.
J
Joeri
Guest
even they who pierced him, as I said: the cross is only the beginning.Judy said:
S
steve6521
Guest
Thanks for clearing up you're not laughing at me . (appreciated)
Since my question wasn't answered, it is still valid. Jesus' second coming would have been much more grandeur than His first advent.
Much more grandeur ?
What are you really envisaging ? What do you really expect to see ?
Give me some real specifics ?
Even if you expect some more grandeur - what does that mean? The specifics of Mt 10 and Mt 16 were completed or not ? The Son of Man came back or not ? If they were not - Scripture is broken. If they were - why should there be anything or even how can anything be more grandeur ? Besides - is it by faith or sight we live ?
It surely would have been recorded...somewhere.
It was. Josephus did record it. Have you really read the whole account of Josephus' ' The War of the Jews" or not? If not , it would be impossible to get a grasp of what really happenned.
So why don't we know about it? Because it hasn't happened yet. Which brings up the verse Judy quoted...
They knew about it before the last century but we only see things in a material, physical way and are not used to using symbolism and imagery.
Ex why coming with the clouds - What about Dan 7 - I could see the idea as being one of a passing of authority - Jesus -the Son of man - was being given authority, glory, and sovereign powerover all peoples, nations, men etc. It is a new kingdom !
See 1 Cor 15:24 When the end - telos comes - end of the age - end of the sacrifices and the start of the new - around 70 AD
a new kingdom - isn't that what John the Baptist preached about ? Jesus - enter the kngdom - get under and into Jesus' rule !
When was this to take place ? Very soon - when the old exterior of the old covenant was to be done away with.
Ex Heb 12:27-28 - It sounds like this kingdom is spiritual - the real reality.
ex 1Cor 15:50 flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God - I believe we should not be looking to see physical things- It is not the focus of the physical but the spiritual realities behind the physical
How about this one
Lk 17:20 The kingdom of God DOES NOT come with your careful OBSERVATION, ... - we can't say here it is or there it is -it is among us invisible or maybe the meaning is among them - Jesus among them.
The idea then of seeing Jesus coming back in the sky with the focus on SEEING with our eyes is not the point.
In Mt 24:30 It says, " And then the SIGN of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, - There were SIGNS in the sky and Josephus records them. I assume you know them - if not then you haven't read Jpsephus and my descriptions and words are in all probability lost on you.
then it says 'and then all the tribes of th earth will mourn '
in the Greek it can without doing any injury to the text be just as easily
'and then all the tribes of the GHS LAND' It is not kosmos and is more probable it is land. So it is a local showing of the sign of the Son of Man to al the tribes of that area.
This brings me to your verse Rev 1:7
The phrase Behold He comes with the CLOUDS, ( the change of authority (judgement))
and every eye will see him,
and those who PIERCED him'
and will mourn on account of Him all the TRIBES OF the LAND.
(PASAI hAI FULAI THS GHS)
The exact same phrase is used - all the tribes of the land = who would all the tribes of the land be ? = Israel of their day !
See Zech 12:12 the same phrase. It was a common phrase for Israel.
To make it world wide is forced and unatural for such a phrase.
Who pierced HIm ? Eveidently not the whole world and not the world of 2000 years later ! It was the Jews OF THE TIME that had Jesus crucified. See Mt 23:30-32; Act 2:36 Stephen's speech
( by the way they were already punished and therefore there is no justification for aniSemitism- although Futurism looks to the Temple being rebuilt so it can be clobbered back down again to make Rev fit this theory)
THEY all mourned - they were slughtered and enslaved by the Roman army that God used for his bidding like the Assyrians long ago.
Every eye shall see him - I think the only way to understand this is in light of seeing the evidence of His return that Jesus gave to expect and all happenned as He said it would - means seeing the signs (Mt 24:34) is seeing his return. Seeing in the sense of perceiveing the events that did and were taking place. Reading the almost 300 pages of Jsosephus and placing oneself in that time to me would have been enough to 'see' or perceive His return and the change up of His authority especially considering the signs given and as Jesus said it the kingdom does not come with careful observation.
I understand there was war and persecution going on at that time, along with famine and all the rest. That all pales in comparison to what lies ahead. Imagne it happening now, with 6 billion+ people on Earth. Imagine the devestation? It will truely be of Biblical proportion.
Biblical does not simply mean big
The time elements are clearly stated ( Mt 16 etc)
The reasoning is stated - The rejection of the Messiah at that time - What does your typical Hindu in India know about Jesus the Messiah. Why should they be judged that severely. The Jews at that time had the scriptures and Jesus said that the system had become a stumbling block to come to God- What does the rest of the world have to do with being a block to God and how would they reckognize to time of his coming The statements are LOCAL to that tiime and place. Someone in Mexico is not helped by running to the mountains and he is not under Sabbath law.
Amd don't forget...
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Why would Jesus warn about this? After all, they were under Roman rule. These things were going on all the time in that era.
No they were not. Things at first were not that bad . Paxa Roma was still there. It crumbled as time went on like birthpangs and was terrible by 70 AD. The factions and civil wars were terrible. On top of that - think how ridiclulous the statement would be by Jesus if at the time it was already bad and he says that in the future to Him - there will be wars and rumours of wars - and he's talking to the disciples. They did really get bad like approx 30 years later.
1 Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1 Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1 Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
That's right . The believers escaped when Titus was unexpected pulled away from taking over and finishing Jerusalem. The believers who were 'not asleep' - who took Jesus at his word escaped to Pella in the mountains.
Plus many scholars feel that Revelation was penned in early AD 90's, which is well past the Jerusalem Diaspora. And as we know, the Seals almost perfectly align with events in Matthew 24.
And others who believe before 70 AD around 68 AD. I think it makes a ton of more sense before 70 AD. IF you're serious about investigating it read 'Before Jerusalem Felll' by Gentry. It is widely acclaimed and as one put it - 'he doesn't leave any stone unturned' in his quest to establish a date.
No, Jesus' prophesy has not been fully fullfilled because Jesus has not returned yet...as He promised.[/quote]
Already answered.
Now a question for you
The verses listed by Reznworks - you need to deal with them one by one. An 'interesting piece ' is not enough.
Mt 10 about the discples - The Son of Man coming back before they finished preaching
Mt 16 some of you STANDING here will not die before the Son of Man comes - ESPECIALLY THIS ONE !
MT 24:34 This generation will not pass untill therse events happen. The events happenned ! Did the Son of Man come back.
Go through all the verses sincerely tht Reznworks posted. Are they for that time or not?
I have taken quite a few hours to answer this post. I would hope the time would be put in to see if this view is correct bearing in mind these key verses.
cheers
steve
Since my question wasn't answered, it is still valid. Jesus' second coming would have been much more grandeur than His first advent.
Much more grandeur ?
What are you really envisaging ? What do you really expect to see ?
Give me some real specifics ?
Even if you expect some more grandeur - what does that mean? The specifics of Mt 10 and Mt 16 were completed or not ? The Son of Man came back or not ? If they were not - Scripture is broken. If they were - why should there be anything or even how can anything be more grandeur ? Besides - is it by faith or sight we live ?
It surely would have been recorded...somewhere.
It was. Josephus did record it. Have you really read the whole account of Josephus' ' The War of the Jews" or not? If not , it would be impossible to get a grasp of what really happenned.
So why don't we know about it? Because it hasn't happened yet. Which brings up the verse Judy quoted...
They knew about it before the last century but we only see things in a material, physical way and are not used to using symbolism and imagery.
Ex why coming with the clouds - What about Dan 7 - I could see the idea as being one of a passing of authority - Jesus -the Son of man - was being given authority, glory, and sovereign powerover all peoples, nations, men etc. It is a new kingdom !
See 1 Cor 15:24 When the end - telos comes - end of the age - end of the sacrifices and the start of the new - around 70 AD
a new kingdom - isn't that what John the Baptist preached about ? Jesus - enter the kngdom - get under and into Jesus' rule !
When was this to take place ? Very soon - when the old exterior of the old covenant was to be done away with.
Ex Heb 12:27-28 - It sounds like this kingdom is spiritual - the real reality.
ex 1Cor 15:50 flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God - I believe we should not be looking to see physical things- It is not the focus of the physical but the spiritual realities behind the physical
How about this one
Lk 17:20 The kingdom of God DOES NOT come with your careful OBSERVATION, ... - we can't say here it is or there it is -it is among us invisible or maybe the meaning is among them - Jesus among them.
The idea then of seeing Jesus coming back in the sky with the focus on SEEING with our eyes is not the point.
In Mt 24:30 It says, " And then the SIGN of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, - There were SIGNS in the sky and Josephus records them. I assume you know them - if not then you haven't read Jpsephus and my descriptions and words are in all probability lost on you.
then it says 'and then all the tribes of th earth will mourn '
in the Greek it can without doing any injury to the text be just as easily
'and then all the tribes of the GHS LAND' It is not kosmos and is more probable it is land. So it is a local showing of the sign of the Son of Man to al the tribes of that area.
This brings me to your verse Rev 1:7
The phrase Behold He comes with the CLOUDS, ( the change of authority (judgement))
and every eye will see him,
and those who PIERCED him'
and will mourn on account of Him all the TRIBES OF the LAND.
(PASAI hAI FULAI THS GHS)
The exact same phrase is used - all the tribes of the land = who would all the tribes of the land be ? = Israel of their day !
See Zech 12:12 the same phrase. It was a common phrase for Israel.
To make it world wide is forced and unatural for such a phrase.
Who pierced HIm ? Eveidently not the whole world and not the world of 2000 years later ! It was the Jews OF THE TIME that had Jesus crucified. See Mt 23:30-32; Act 2:36 Stephen's speech
( by the way they were already punished and therefore there is no justification for aniSemitism- although Futurism looks to the Temple being rebuilt so it can be clobbered back down again to make Rev fit this theory)
THEY all mourned - they were slughtered and enslaved by the Roman army that God used for his bidding like the Assyrians long ago.
Every eye shall see him - I think the only way to understand this is in light of seeing the evidence of His return that Jesus gave to expect and all happenned as He said it would - means seeing the signs (Mt 24:34) is seeing his return. Seeing in the sense of perceiveing the events that did and were taking place. Reading the almost 300 pages of Jsosephus and placing oneself in that time to me would have been enough to 'see' or perceive His return and the change up of His authority especially considering the signs given and as Jesus said it the kingdom does not come with careful observation.
I understand there was war and persecution going on at that time, along with famine and all the rest. That all pales in comparison to what lies ahead. Imagne it happening now, with 6 billion+ people on Earth. Imagine the devestation? It will truely be of Biblical proportion.
Biblical does not simply mean big
The time elements are clearly stated ( Mt 16 etc)
The reasoning is stated - The rejection of the Messiah at that time - What does your typical Hindu in India know about Jesus the Messiah. Why should they be judged that severely. The Jews at that time had the scriptures and Jesus said that the system had become a stumbling block to come to God- What does the rest of the world have to do with being a block to God and how would they reckognize to time of his coming The statements are LOCAL to that tiime and place. Someone in Mexico is not helped by running to the mountains and he is not under Sabbath law.
Amd don't forget...
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Why would Jesus warn about this? After all, they were under Roman rule. These things were going on all the time in that era.
No they were not. Things at first were not that bad . Paxa Roma was still there. It crumbled as time went on like birthpangs and was terrible by 70 AD. The factions and civil wars were terrible. On top of that - think how ridiclulous the statement would be by Jesus if at the time it was already bad and he says that in the future to Him - there will be wars and rumours of wars - and he's talking to the disciples. They did really get bad like approx 30 years later.
1 Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1 Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1 Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
That's right . The believers escaped when Titus was unexpected pulled away from taking over and finishing Jerusalem. The believers who were 'not asleep' - who took Jesus at his word escaped to Pella in the mountains.
Plus many scholars feel that Revelation was penned in early AD 90's, which is well past the Jerusalem Diaspora. And as we know, the Seals almost perfectly align with events in Matthew 24.
And others who believe before 70 AD around 68 AD. I think it makes a ton of more sense before 70 AD. IF you're serious about investigating it read 'Before Jerusalem Felll' by Gentry. It is widely acclaimed and as one put it - 'he doesn't leave any stone unturned' in his quest to establish a date.
No, Jesus' prophesy has not been fully fullfilled because Jesus has not returned yet...as He promised.[/quote]
Already answered.
Now a question for you
The verses listed by Reznworks - you need to deal with them one by one. An 'interesting piece ' is not enough.
Mt 10 about the discples - The Son of Man coming back before they finished preaching
Mt 16 some of you STANDING here will not die before the Son of Man comes - ESPECIALLY THIS ONE !
MT 24:34 This generation will not pass untill therse events happen. The events happenned ! Did the Son of Man come back.
Go through all the verses sincerely tht Reznworks posted. Are they for that time or not?
I have taken quite a few hours to answer this post. I would hope the time would be put in to see if this view is correct bearing in mind these key verses.
cheers
steve
J
Joeri
Guest
I dont have much time-i dont know if your talking to me, but when i say a grandourous second coming, im talking not about lights anf fireworks and moving mountains, but suffering for the sake of the Lord.
however that suffering is, together with many others, before the second coming as described in the bible.
however that suffering is, together with many others, before the second coming as described in the bible.
E
evanman
Guest
Every eye shall see Him!
My eyes haven't seen Him. Has anyone else's?
My eyes haven't seen Him. Has anyone else's?