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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Is Sinning on Purpose Willful Sin ?
- Thread starter Eugene
- Start date
I believe Jesus' statement in John 5:24 clarifies that one is truly saved (past tense) when one believes.
Also, our salvation is a process, if one considers the 3 tenses involved in salvation.
Past tense; we have been saved from the penalty of sin. (aka justification)
Present tense: we are being saved from the power of sin. (aka sanctification)
Future rtense: we will be saved from the presence of sin. (aka glorification)
One of the problems on these forums is when one doesn't clarify which "type" of salvation is being referred to.
Because we know that eternal life is a gift (Rom 6:23) and God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29), we can rest assurred that everyone who has believed will be with God eternally.
Jethro Bodine
Member
KJV
Jethro Bodine
Member
How does a dead, unbelieving Jew come to faith in Christ? Explain this so we can somehow get that out of the Romans 11 passage.
On a personal level. Could you give a little detail to that statement? I know everybody has different experiences, and I have to go off of mine. I was Saved at 30 years old,never went to church, Lived a life that even unbelievers would shiver at and was saved walking out of my shop talking to God. It is an experience that not ONE person can take from me. How can you really wonder? After learning bible doctrine, I understood that It only takes belief and most don't "experience" something. Did you not experience something? Do you really not KNOW that you are saved?
Added: Never going to church probably was beneficial to me. I didn't know religion.
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I only mentioned the KJV only types because your view seems so similar to theirs.KJV
The same way that everyone does. Paul told the Ephesian believers that before faith, they were "dead in their sins". And what does your question have to do with the subject of eternal security?
It isn't in ch 11. It's in ch 3,4,9.
Jethro Bodine
Member
What I resist is your contention that our English Bibles and countless translation teams have failed to convey the truths of God to his people, and that OSAS has to fill in the blanks for us. As I was getting at, OSAS could do like the Mormons and the Jehovah Witnesses and write supplementary material, or have it's own version of the Bible that supports it's doctrine since the Bibles we have don't.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Explain how Jews being grafted back into the tree proves OSAS. The only way it can is if the very same Jews who were cut out of the tree are then grafted back in, and not because they believed, but because God has to do it because, as you say, his gifts and calling are irrevocable in this regard.
And while you're at it, explain how in the kingdom, God's gift of forgiveness can be taken back, as illustrated using the parable of the unmerciful servant, yet you insist that Romans 11:29 NASB says it can not. It's not right or honest to form doctrine out of a less detailed and vague verse of scripture and ignore what is plainly taught in a clear passage of scripture. It's even less right and honest to change the meanings of words to make what a passage says not really mean what it plainly says.
It isn't "OSAS" that "has to" fill in any blanks. There aren't any "blanks". The issue is what the original language says, not what various translations say. Which is why lexicons are important, as well as Greek grammar rules. That's how we really know what is meant. The Greek language is very inflective and the English cannot fully express the Greek.
There's no need for such, as even the plain words are clear enough.
btw, since you're on such a "plain word" kick, can you tell me what Rom 6:23 and 11:29 mean to us?
It doesn't. I never said it did. And I have no idea why you think Jews being grafted back in is relevant.
You're very confused. The parable isn't about eternal forgiveness. I explained that already.
I'll ask you 2 questions. Please answer each one, if you are serious about this debate.
1. Is eternal life a gift from God?
2. Are God's gifts irrevocable?
My doctrine is formed by the very clear wording found in Rom 6:23 and Rom 11:29. Your doctrine has been formed by ignoring or denying those 2 very clear verses.
What words have I "changed", as you allege? I have provided what actual Greek words mean. Are you offended by what the Greek says?
Salvation
First - It is provisional. If you accept Jesus as your savior, you will be saved. (Romans 10:9-10)
Second - When you become saved, it is at this time that you are born again and have overcome the penalty of sin, or become saved from the great white throne judgment and the resulting lake of fire. (Repeating John 5:24), "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."
Third - The working out your own salvation referred to in (Philippians 2:12) is learning to overcome the habit of sin in our lives. This is the experiencing part of our salvation and is another step in our growth as a Christian. (2 Peter 1:5-7) tells us to "Add to your faith virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness and charity."
Fourth - We will be saved from this corrupt world. (1 John 3:2) "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."
Jethro Bodine
Member
Yes. Now show me how the Jews being grafted back into the tree--the context where Paul says the gifts and calling of Israel are irrevocable--is proof that the gift of eternal life is irrevocable in that you once you get it you can never have it taken away.
Now, my question to you. Is having your debt forgiven for free by the King in the kingdom of God a gift from God?
For the gifts that we know from other scripture that are irrevocable, 'yes'. For the gifts that we know from other scripture that are revocable, the answer is 'no'.
In regard to the Jew--the context in which Paul says the gifts and calling are irrevocable--all the favor that God promised for the nation of Abraham's offspring will not be recalled. They will one day, once again, enjoy all the giftings granted to them (the priesthood, for example), and will one day walk in the calling they have received. This will be fulfilled in a later generation of Israelites, not by Israelites now dead in their unbelief. This hardly proves that a person who once believed, but who has fallen away and doesn't believe anymore, is still somehow saved.
Did I ever have an awakening experience? Did I ever have an “Aha!” moment? I can’t say that I have or at least I can’t define a year, month, day, hour, or minute when I felt the Holy Spirit come upon me but here’s what I can tell you.
I believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ, the son of the living God. And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” Matt. 3:17 NKJV.
I believe that I am a sinner. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Rom. 3:23
I believe that I deserve death. For the wages of sin is death. Rom. 6:23 NKJV
Despite my sinful nature and my deserving of death, I believe that I can be saved through the Christ, Jesus. But the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom. 6:23 NKJV
I believe that Jesus died and rose again for my sake, to make atonement for my sins. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16 NKJV
I believe that salvation comes through Him and Him alone. Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” John 14:6 NKJV Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” Acts 4:12 NKJV
I believe that He is Lord and Master over me. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil. 2:9-11 NKJV
Finally, I believe that when it comes time for me to leave this earth, I will be in heaven.
As I said, your question is irrelevant to the issue of OSAS.
Salvation is the gift. Which is forgiveness of one's sins. So, yes.
I asked:
2. Are God's gifts irrevocable?
Your answer was:
"For the gifts that we know from other scripture that are irrevocable, 'yes'. For the gifts that we know from other scripture that are revocable, the answer is 'no'."
Here is your gross error. The Bible plainly says that God's gifts are irrevocable, and you say they aren't. Your view is in direct opposition to Scripture.
What a dance! The verse is clearly stating that God's giftS are irrevocable. There is nothing here about "some" of God's gifts being irrevocable, which is your view. It's an all-inclusive statement about God's gifts.
And your view must ignore the ENTIRE verse, of course: for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
The inclusion of the phrase "and the calling of God" refutes your idea. The Jews weren't "called". Look up the Greek word for it. Her is what Strong's says about the word:
klēsis
1) a calling, calling to
2) a call, invitation
2a) to a feast
2b) of the divine invitation to embrace salvation of God
None of these meanings applies to Israel. God directly chose them. He never invited or called them. And 2b is quite instructive. The gospel CALL is to salvation. And salvation is a gift from God, per Eph 2:8, as well as Rom 6:23.
So, Rom 11:29 in its ENTIRETY refutes your view.
Please don't bother claiming that I'm twisting words again. I have given you the range of semantical meanings for the Greek word, which is the word Paul used.
Jethro Bodine
Member
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they (Israel) are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (Romans 11:28-29 NASB)
FreeGrace, The folly of your doctrine is evident.
You can't lift "for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" out of the passage above and insist it means the gift of eternal life is irrevocable. That's using it out of the context of the passage, which is the gifting and calling of Israel. They abused their giftings. They rejected their calling. Paul is explaining that doesn't mean God has withdrawn the promise of that gifting and calling. It will one day be fulfilled by later generations of Israelites.
See, if you make the gifts in the passage ;mean any and all gifts of God then you create a glaring contradiction in scripture where we see in scripture that the King will indeed withdraw the free gift of forgiveness and reinstate the debt of the person who acts like the unmerciful servant in the kingdom. We don't even have to determine whether or not that revoking of the free gift means you are now unsaved. The point is, forgiveness is an unmerited gift of God in the kingdom, yet we see it being revoked in the kingdom--completely contrary to your claim that because it is a gift of God that it can not be revoked.
Bottom line...don't try to make Romans 11:29 mean something the context of the passage and the context of the whole Bible does not support.
FreeGrace, The folly of your doctrine is evident.
You can't lift "for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" out of the passage above and insist it means the gift of eternal life is irrevocable. That's using it out of the context of the passage, which is the gifting and calling of Israel. They abused their giftings. They rejected their calling. Paul is explaining that doesn't mean God has withdrawn the promise of that gifting and calling. It will one day be fulfilled by later generations of Israelites.
See, if you make the gifts in the passage ;mean any and all gifts of God then you create a glaring contradiction in scripture where we see in scripture that the King will indeed withdraw the free gift of forgiveness and reinstate the debt of the person who acts like the unmerciful servant in the kingdom. We don't even have to determine whether or not that revoking of the free gift means you are now unsaved. The point is, forgiveness is an unmerited gift of God in the kingdom, yet we see it being revoked in the kingdom--completely contrary to your claim that because it is a gift of God that it can not be revoked.
Bottom line...don't try to make Romans 11:29 mean something the context of the passage and the context of the whole Bible does not support.
Jethro Bodine
Member
I showed you in scripture a gift of God being revoked. But you say that a gift of God, by virtue of it being a gift, can not be revoked. Your gross error is not considering the context in which Paul said "the gifts and the calling are irrevocable". And ignoring plain scripture where we see that a gift of God can and will be revoked in the kingdom.
The folly is not on my side. Paul was addressing primarily Gentiles Romans. He did mention all the blessings that God has given to Israel. But his point in Ch 11 is:
1. a remnant of Israel remains faithful v.1-10
2. Gentiles are grafted into God's tree v.11-24
3. a restoration of Israel is promised v.25-36
The point is that Israel was NOT "called". They were chosen. Very big difference. So v.29 has nothing to do with God's choice. Who are "the called"? Believers. Rom 8:28-30. So, in the context of the entire epistle, you have no point. It all goes together. But you just don't want it to.
Here's how Paul began his epistle:
6among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ; 7to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. NASB
That is the context for the entire epistle. So 11:29 is in THAT context. Don't forget Rom 6:23 as well.
The problem is using a parable as doctrinal teaching. Jesus didn't teach theology by parable.
I've just provided solid evidence that refutes your view. Rom 1:6,7, 6:23, 11:29, 12:6.
Those "called" have received the free gift of eternal life. And God's gifts are irrevocable.
Can you find any verse in Romans that refers to God's blessings to Israel as gifts? I can't, because there aren't any.
God's calling and gifts are to believers only; not the nation of Israel.
You showed a parable. Hardly doctrine.
In my previous post, I proved that the entire context of Romans refutes your idea. And you had to appeal to a parable in another book to support your view, which has nothing to do with the context of Romans.