Is Sinning on Purpose Willful Sin ?

[FreeGrace]

Then John was a liar when he said that the person who lives in unrighteousness is not born again.

I'll ask again: what specific verse says that? Those born again are certainly able to live in unrighteousness.

At best, the OSAS argument HAS to be that one who is saved can not shrink back to unbelief.

No, not at all. Of course they can. Jesus clearly indicated that some (2nd soil) believed for a while, and then fell away, so your opinion of the OSAS view is mistaken.

But over and over again in this forum people argue that one does not have to live righteously through a continuing faith in God to be considered born again, in complete contradiction to what John said.

I think you misunderstand what John wrote in 1 Jn 3. He was speaking of the fact that when the Holy Spirit is in charge, one cannot sin. I believe that "regeneration" refers to the rebirth/new birth of the dead human spirit that man is born with. And that is where the Holy Spirit resides when He indwells the believer. When one functions from the regenerated human spirit, they CANNOT sin. Simply impossible. But…when the believer functions from his sinful nature, he certainly is carnal/fleshly/sinful.

Consider 1 Jn 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. NASB

The phrase "born of God" refers to the regenerated human spirit, and from that new nature, the believer cannot sin, for that is where the Holy Spirit resides.

John is NOT saying that one who has been born again doesn't practice sin, or cannot sin. That would mean sinless perfection, which is unbiblical.

Obviously, when Paul said that to him he had not believed yet. How does this prove that he will be forever and irretrievably saved, except that you're projecting that pre-determined OSAS meaning of 'saved' onto the word again to defend that very point in debate.

It is proved by the tenses. For a point in time belief one WILL BE saved. How can you miss it? btw, there is no "pre-determined OSAS meaning of 'saved' that violates the Biblical meaning of 'saved'. To be saved means to be saved from hell, saved from sin (ultimately) and saved from the penalty of sin. And one who believes in a point in time WILL BE saved in the future. I believe your bias isn't allowing you to see the obvios here.

You're doing it, again, just as so many before you have. You're automatically qualifying 'saved' as meaning 'forever without condition' to answer the question of whether 'saved' means 'forever without condition'.

When Paul said that for believing in a point in time that one WILL BE saved in the future certainly DOES mean forever. Your view is that one must continuously believe in order to be saved continuously. And you don't have a single verse to support your view.

This is perhaps the biggest mistake OSAS makes. You can not say, "Paul said he would be saved, and saved means forever and irreversible, therefore, this proves that being saved means forever and irreversible."

By ignoring the meaning of the aorist tense is why you make this erroneous statement. The aorist tense ignores duration. Do you understand that?

But anyway, we learn the details about the nature of salvation from the rest of his writings.

Please share the verses that tell me very clearly that one's salvation, eternal life, and regeneration can be lost.

This is not where the answer lies. Just because eternal life is both actual tangible things and non-tangible things doesn't decide whether it can be lost, or not.

You're really not understanding the meaning of ETERNAL LIFE here. It is a life that will last forever. And all who have believed HAVE that life when they believe. So the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate where and how God will terminate that ETERNAL LIFE for any reason. Good luck with that one!!

How does saying, "Well, it is true" prove your argument? Help me out here.

All of my posts are to help you out. But you're not interested in being helped. Your mind has been made up and you are ignoring all the points that refute your view, plus you have not defended your own view.

A decision is not an object. And just because it is not, that hardly means, categorically, that it can not be reversed.

So, then show me any verse that plainly says that one's salvation can be lost or taken away. You can't.

What gets disregarded is the plain scripture I've shared that shows that in the kingdom economy and way of doing things, an intangible decision to forgive someone--that we both agree results in both the spiritual and physical aspects of eternal life- will most certainly be revoked if the receiving party does not respond in accordance with the forgiveness he has received.

The part you misunderstand is that all the warning passages are about loss of blessings and reward, NOT eternal life. But you aren't paying attention to that. Nor have you refuted that.

The Holy Spirit is given when one asks for and receives forgiveness.

You cannot provide any verse that says that. The Holy Spirit is given when one believes in Christ. Asking for forgiveness is NOT believing in Christ for eternal life. Any unbeliever who feels guilty of his/her sins and asks God for forgiveness is NOT saved, nor forgiven. Forgiveness comes from belief in Christ according to Acts 10:43. Your view is wrong.

Jesus himself said that his Father will treat any of us the same way the forgiven, but unmerciful servant was treated when he did not respond in the expected and obligatory way that being forgiven demands. But you insist no example has been, or can be given?

You really hold your whole doctrine on 1 parable?? And ignore all the clear verses that refute your view of that one parable?

Remember WHY Jesus spoke in parables. ;)

What you are ignoring is that the whole context of scripture plainly tells us that 'forever' is contingent, while in this body, on continuing to do what got you saved in the first place--believe.

Stop it. No, it does not tell us that plainly. You are applying your opinion to the verses.

Surely you know the many scriptures that have been repeatedly posted to defend this such that they need not be reposted.

You've not posted any verse that warns of loss of salvation. And you keep ignoring the verses that guarantee our position in Christ.

Eph 1:13, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5 are GUARANTEES that all who believe have been sealed by the Holy Spirit as a pledge (promise) for the day of redemption.

Rom 8:38 tells us that there is NOTHING in the future that can separate us from the love of Christ. Yet you claim that if one loses faith, they lose salvation. So you disagree with Paul is all. But I believe what Paul wrote.

Show me 'seal' means by definition irreversible and we'll have something to discuss.

When Paul wrote that the Holy Spirit is a pledge or promise FOR the day of redemption, that is clearly a promise that God will keep. I have no idea why that isn't clear to you, except is refutes your view.

Until you do that we have no evidence to examine. You have decided that 'seal' means that. You haven't shown me that's what the word means. But you insist it does. The ball is in your court, not mine.

I've repeatedly explained what the seal of the Holy Spirit means. It is a promise or pledge by God FOR the day of redemption.

You're doing it again. You are automatically reading into the word that it means by definition 'sealed forever and without possibility of reversal'. It's the sin of the OSAS argument--circular reasoning. Which in this case says, "seal means forever and irreversible, therefore, that is the answer to whether or not 'seal' means forever and irreversible".

This is getting old. The concept of forever doesn't come from the seal itself, but what Paul said in addition to and about the seal of the Holy Spirit. iow, what the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit is FOR. It is FOR the day of redemption. I guess that doesn't mean much to you. But it means everything to me. It is God's promise that because I believed and received the indwelling Holy Spirit, AND because God CANNOT deny Himself (2 Tim 2:13), I am GUARANTEED to see the day of redemption. That is God's promise or pledge to me.

Do you believe that God will not keep His promises?

If you agree that the Holy Spirit is given in response to having faith in God then anywhere you see the warning to not stop believing, in the context of salvation itself, you have the warning to not lose the Holy Spirit.

Except there are no warning about stopping believing in the context of salvation. That is your opinion that doesn't come from Scripture. In fact, because the promised Holy Spirit will be with us forever, and God CANNOT deny Himself, it is IMPOSSIBLE for one who has the Holy Spirit to lose the Holy Spirit, and therefore, to end up in hell.

You have not refuted that.

Is it really necessary to repost the scriptures, in the context of salvation, that have been posted many times now that have been used to defend this argument?

You haven't yet posted any verse that supports your view. All those verses are about loss of blessings in time and reward in eternity.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
Please quote the verse that you think says that, because he never ever wrote such a thing. Solomon ended his life living in unrighteousness, and there is no indication that he isn't in heaven. Same thing for King Saul. In fact, Samuel came back from the dead to tell Saul that he would join him the next day. We all know where Samuel went after death, and Saul joined him.

Death. Saul joined Samuel in death. The grave.

Why in the world would Samuel only mean that? btw, Samuel wasn't in the grave when he came back to that seance. He was in Paradise, where Saul was going to join him the next day. Good grief!! If Samuel's only point was that Saul was going to die the next day, he would have simply said that. But the issue is where the soul GOES after physical death. The grave is meaningless considering our souls. The body is nothing. The soul is everything, and will reside either with God in eternity or apart from God. Samuel was NOT telling Saul only about physical death. That would be meaningless and mindless.

Using your argument, every single evil king in Judah and Israel is with Jesus now because they eventually 'rested with their fathers'.

You're making a ridiculous assumption. That phrase clearly refers to physical death. Samuel was very specific, unlike this phrase about physical death. Takes some discernment to see the difference.

You understand the aorist tense only if you understand that point in time is historical, not irreversibly causative. That meaning would come from context, not from the definition of what 'arorist' is.

I'm certainly not taking about "irreversibly causative". And I have no diea what your point is here. The aorist tense is simply a point in time event, without regard to duration. Your view is all about duration; continuing to believe in order to stay saved. Paul's answer to the jailer easily refutes your view.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'll ask again: what specific verse says that? Those born again are certainly able to live in unrighteousness.

"9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9 NASB)

This is why the argument that none can be lost even if they reject Christ is false. Most OSAS'ers in this forum say you can go back to your old life and you will still be saved on the Day of Wrath, because, they claim, it is impossible to lose your salvation as it has absolutely nothing to do with you whatsoever, it being a free and clear unconditional gift. But as we can see that argument is entirely false because John said people who practice sin are NOT born again.

At the very least all OSAS can argue is that once you are saved you will never go back to your old life. IOW, they must argue that a believer can never lose his faith, not that faith is not required to end in order to be saved. Which is what I've been saying all along: It isn't a matter of what really happens to the person who falls from their faith. The Bible is clear about that. What we should be talking about is whether that is really possible or not. Given the abundance of warnings to not do that it's obvious that it is possible to fail in your faith in the forgiveness of God (whether carelessly, or on purpose) and as a result, go back to your sins, which John says means you are NOT BORN AGAIN.

 

[Deborah13]

YLT
1Jn 1:8 if we may say--`we have not sin,' ourselves we lead astray, and the truth is not in us;
1Jn 1:9 if we may confess our sins, stedfast He is and righteous that He may forgive us the sins, and may cleanse us from every unrighteousness;
1Jn 1:10 if we may say--`we have not sinned,' a liar we make Him, and His word is not in us.

How could someone be born again and believe they 'have not sinned'?
They can't, the very act of accepting Christ as one's Redeemer demands that one must knowledge that they 'have sin', 'have sinned' against God.
If they haven't knowledged this fact, they are not born again to start with.

But when they do confess that they are a sinner He.....

1Jn 1:9 if we may confess our sins, stedfast He is and righteous that He may forgive us the sins, and may cleanse us from every unrighteousness;

He is stedfast and righteous. He forgives us the sins AND sanctifies (cleanses) us from every unrighteousness.
He will complete the good work He began in the believer that is a promise.

 

[gr8grace3]

"9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9 NASB)

This is why the argument that none can be lost even if they reject Christ is false. Most OSAS'ers in this forum say you can go back to your old life and you will still be saved on the Day of Wrath, because, they claim, it is impossible to lose your salvation as it has absolutely nothing to do with you whatsoever, it being a free and clear unconditional gift. But as we can see that argument is entirely false because John said people who practice sin are NOT born again.

At the very least all OSAS can argue is that once you are saved you will never go back to your old life. IOW, they must argue that a believer can never lose his faith, not that faith is not required to end in order to be saved. Which is what I've been saying all along: It isn't a matter of what really happens to the person who falls from their faith. The Bible is clear about that. What we should be talking about is whether that is really possible or not. Given the abundance of warnings to not do that it's obvious that it is possible to fail in your faith in the forgiveness of God (whether carelessly, or on purpose) and as a result, go back to your sins, which John says means you are NOT BORN AGAIN.

"9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9 NASB)

This verse is talking about the moment one is born of God.

At the moment we are born of God, we are not practicing sin,We are indwelt with the Spirit and cannot sin(because we are in the divine dynasphere[fellowship/operating in the power of the Spirit] at that moment.)

The moment we step out(sin) of that sphere[fellowship with God], we are practicing sin again.

1 John 1:9 is the believers way to recover.

John is NOT saying,"people who practice sin are not born again."

John is saying," at the moment you are born again, you are not practicing sin."

 

[Jethro Bodine]

YLT
1Jn 1:8 if we may say--`we have not sin,' ourselves we lead astray, and the truth is not in us;
1Jn 1:9 if we may confess our sins, stedfast He is and righteous that He may forgive us the sins, and may cleanse us from every unrighteousness;
1Jn 1:10 if we may say--`we have not sinned,' a liar we make Him, and His word is not in us.

How could someone be born again and believe they 'have not sinned'?
They can't, the very act of accepting Christ as one's Redeemer demands that one must knowledge that they 'have sin', 'have sinned' against God.
If they haven't knowledged this fact, they are not born again to start with.

But when they do confess that they are a sinner He.....

1Jn 1:9 if we may confess our sins, stedfast He is and righteous that He may forgive us the sins, and may cleanse us from every unrighteousness;

He is stedfast and righteous. He forgives us the sins AND sanctifies (cleanses) us from every unrighteousness.
He will complete the good work He began in the believer that is a promise.

Oh, I see. All born again people are not born again because they sin.

Obviously, Deborah, John is talking about the person who goes back to his old lifestyle of sin, not the struggling saint who sins but who is continuing to rely on the forgiveness of God to keep him right before God. The person who rejects the forgiveness of God, either through carelessness or open contempt, is the one who returns to his lifestyle of sin and is, therefore, not born again. This is in direct contradiction to the 'you're saved no matter what' doctrine of some sects of OSAS' who claim you can even reject Christ after being born again and you remain born again because salvation is so utterly not of you.

 

[chessman]

John said people who practice sin are NOT born again.

Wrong. You modified what John wrote in verse 9 by re-ordering the verse’s statement “Everyone who is fathered by God does not practice sin,” into your idea about what happens to people that have been “fathered by God” should they practice sin after they are born-again.

On a timeline of events, John’s ordering is:

Event 1) All people sin, even John ( see 1 John 1:10)
Event 2) Some people are later fathered by God (‘born again’, v 3:9a)
Event 3) Those born-again people have Jesus (The Son) residing in them specifically for their protection (see 1 John 5:18).
Event 4) Those ‘born again’ people therefore, no longer practice sin (v 3:9b)
​

John’s reason is “because His Seed resides in him” (v 3:9c) and His Seed has, however, already completed the destruction of the works of the devil for those who have been born-again.

John’s point is that it’s absurd to think Jesus sins, Jesus is God and Jesus resides in His little children specifically for their protection against this evil.

On a timeline of events, according to Jethro’s hypothesis:

Event 1) Some born again people practice sin (contrary to what v 3:6 and 9 actually says they can do AFTER they are born-again)
Event 2) Those people then somehow become ‘un-born’ or “NOT born again” to use his words.​

His reason is??? IDK, he doesn't say.

John even tells us why born again people can no longer practice sin which is one word in the Greek. It has 43 occurrences, over 1/3 of which come from John's writings. ( http://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_264.htm).
It's not the same word as "sin" used in say, for example, Rom 6:23.

John tells us why born-again people do not "practice sin". It's because we're great people right? Nope!

It's because those that are born again have Jesus (His Seed) in them and He protects them! Does God practice sin? No, that’s absurd. Does God's protection fail? No. Therefore, do those who have been fathered by God and have God residing in them for their protection practice sin? Umm, no. That’s equally absurd. How so??? Good question,

Actually, if you read fairly through this letter (it's not that long) we see what John is saying more clearly than can be obtained by simply reading the one verse (which doesn't even say what JB says that it does, BTW).

First, John wrote that all people (in general saved and un-saved alike, even including John himself) have practiced sin:

1 John 1:10 (LEB) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.​

However, God is not a liar and we cannot literally "make Him a liar". So John is using a logical argumentation technique called “Argmentum ad absurdum” (here and elsewhere such as in 3:9, see why below). God is obviously not a liar; therefore saying that we have not sinned is so absurd that if it were true, that fact would make God out to be a liar. So what’s up with John saying that born-again people don’t practice sin, right after just getting through saying that all people do sin? Good question.

What are these newly born-again people (little children of God) to think about their continued sinning, going forward in this brand new-life under God's protection then, so to speak? Another good question. Answer = grow up… under the training of The Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit (advocating for us, literally there inside every believer) and recognize that Jesus Christ and The Father are there for us AND has propitiated for our practice in sins already. Don’t believe me? Read about it in 1 John:

2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you in order that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous one, and he [Jesus] is the propitiation for our sins…​

Notice that Jesus IS the propitiation for our sins. John doesn’t say that Jesus might become the propitiation for our sins or attach any other conditions to Jesus being already the propitiation for our sins (plural). He IS already the propitiation for our sins. It’s done. He’s already propitiated for His children’s sins (our sins). And in the same breath John fully recognizes the potential for future sins (in order that you many not sin). Therefore, If sins are committed by His children, guess what, they’ve are already been propitiated for by Jesus, is his point.

Reading on:

1 John 3:6 (LEB) Everyone who resides in him does not sin. Everyone who sins has neither seen him nor known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you:…​

Notice:

1) Even though John says all people have sinned (including himself, in chapter 1) John here in chapter 3 is clearly separating people into two groups of people (those who reside in Him, His little children and those that do not know Him (those not fathered by God but are rather fathered by the Devil, v8).
2)Everyone who sins has not known Him. Notice that John doesn’t say that everyone who sins no longer knows Him. If you’ve ever known God (or rather God’s known you. Gal 4:9) your sins have been destroyed. Don’t believe me? Read verse 3:8b.
3) Does a child who has become fathered by God (versus those fathered by the Devil) suddenly become un-fathered by God due to sin? Nah. Why? Because Jesus (not the person) has destroyed their sins on the cross (John 19:30).

3:8b For this reason the Son of God was revealed: in order to destroy the works of the devil.​

Jesus (the Son of God) has already destroyed (propitiated for, according to John) the “works of the Devil” (their former father) for those re-born. Thusly, John can rightly say that those who have become fathered by God, no longer practice sin as their sins have been completely destroyed already!

Maturing children know:

that everyone who is fathered by God does not sin, but the one fathered by God, he protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.​

not because of what we, as children, do but because of what He’s already done on the cross.

Which is why we have zero Biblical examples of a born-again person, who has become father by God, and for goodness sake, has Jesus residing in them for their protection becoming un-fathered or un-born again. It would be a failure of God and His promises for that to occur.

God has already completed the work of their sins’ propitiation and is actively protecting them so that the evil one “does not touch him”, that’s why! To think otherwise, is absurd.

Also, see John 8’s record of Jesus’ direct teaching on this principle to an adulteress women as well:

So Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you. Go, and sin no more.” Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world! The one who follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”​

And it’s no small coincidence that immediately after this statement, Jesus claims to be God, their Judge and then predicts His death (His propitiation) for His children’s sins propitiation.

To those reading who are actually continuing to read this and fairly evaluating John’s actual message in this Epistle notice how subtle and small of a change can be made to the actual words of the Bible in order to distort the text into saying something John doesn’t actually say:

9 Everyone who is fathered by God does not practice sin,​

versus:
‘people who practice sin are NOT born again’

JB's teaching a complete reordering of the cause/effect spoken of by John. John wrote to little children to teach them that once they’ve become children of God their sins have been taken care of (completely propitiated for on the cross) already and they do not practice sin as a result.

Yet JB writes, with the ever so slight changing 1 John 3:9, that once you’ve become a child of God, your practiced sins can actually un-born you again (even though God's protecting you against that very thing). Odd, really.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
I'll ask again: what specific verse says that? Those born again are certainly able to live in unrighteousness.

"9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9 NASB)

I've already explained what John meant. What do you think he meant? That born again people don't sin????

Also, previously in 1 Jn, he made the point that "if we (believers) say we have no sin, we make God a liar". Obviously he is saying that believers continue to sin.

Your understanding of 1 Jn 3:9 is wrong. He's talking about function from the regenerated human spirit, where the Holy Spirit indwells. One CANNOT sin from their regenerated human spirit.

But every believer CAN and DOES sin from their sin nature, per Rom 6,7, 8.

And when they do so, they are grieving (Eph 5:18) and quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit.

This is why the argument that none can be lost even if they reject Christ is false. Most OSAS'ers in this forum say you can go back to your old life and you will still be saved on the Day of Wrath, because, they claim, it is impossible to lose your salvation as it has absolutely nothing to do with you whatsoever, it being a free and clear unconditional gift. But as we can see that argument is entirely false because John said people who practice sin are NOT born again.

Then, since the Bible claims that all sin, not even you are born again. What say you? You are misunderstanding what John was saying. I've explained it.

At the very least all OSAS can argue is that once you are saved you will never go back to your old life.

Nope. Jesus noted those who believe for a while, and then fall away from their faith (Luke 8:13). So your claim about the OSAS position is false.

IOW, they must argue that a believer can never lose his faith, not that faith is not required to end in order to be saved.

No, that's the Calvinist position, which is only 1 group that believes OSAS. The free grace position is that once saved, or once faith, always saved.

btw, the reason one STAYS saved even if they lose faith is because of the Biblical promise found in Rom 8:38 where Paul says that even nothing in the present or in the future can separate us from the love of Christ. How do you explain that verse and its promise?

Which is what I've been saying all along: It isn't a matter of what really happens to the person who falls from their faith. The Bible is clear about that. What we should be talking about is whether that is really possible or not. Given the abundance of warnings to not do that it's obvious that it is possible to fail in your faith in the forgiveness of God (whether carelessly, or on purpose) and as a result, go back to your sins, which John says means you are NOT BORN AGAIN.

You're still missing the guarantee in the Bible. Here it is again.

1. Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would be with each believer forever. Jn 14:16
2. Paul said the indwelling Holy Spirit is a pledge or guarantee for the day of redemption.
3. Paul said that even if we (believers) are unfaithful (lack faith), God remains faithful. 2 Tim 2:13
4. God cannot deny Himself. 2 Tim 2:13
5. The Holy Spirit indwells everyone who has believed and seals them for the day of redemption.

If one follows each point here, there is no other conclusion than when one believes they are guaranteed salvation on the day of redemption.

You are going to have to unpack each of these 5 points in order to refute them using Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace]

Oh, I see. All born again people are not born again because they sin.

JB, I found this excellent post on another thread, that is totally related to the subject of salvation:

"I agree that some seals can be broken - a coke bottle cap, the lock on an electrical panel, a wax seal on a letter, etc. But the seal of the Holy Spirit was not made by hands, or by the agency of man; and more so that seal was not intended to be opened by a man, but by God alone.

Even if the seal of the Holy Spirit could be broken - where is that seal, and where would you start? What are its adhesives, or binders, or properties that a man may be familiar with? Where are the instructions to open it? Do you have the means or tool or hand to open it? A greater question: Did God provide a way for that seal to be broken by man, and if so doesn't that make His earnest (2Cor 1:22, 5:5) a sham or a lie?

If that seal could be broken by a man or by his action, then wouldn't that undermine confidence in God's ability to save us, and undermine the assurance of His salvation?

- - -

The truth of the matter is that the seal of the Holy Spirit spoken of in 2Cor 1:22 and 2Cor 5:5 is unreachable, untouchable, and impenetrable by any man. It is a seal ordained by God the Father, for the Lamb of God, with the Holy Spirit of God.

The doctrine that a believer can lose his salvation, or that the seal of His Holy Spirit can be nullified [or broken] is an attack upon God's testimony, character, and sovereignty. It is an attempt to interject the agency of man into the salvation of God."

 

[jonahmano]

"9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9 NASB)

This verse is talking about the moment one is born of God.

At the moment we are born of God, we are not practicing sin,We are indwelt with the Spirit and cannot sin(because we are in the divine dynasphere[fellowship/operating in the power of the Spirit] at that moment.)

The moment we step out(sin) of that sphere[fellowship with God], we are practicing sin again.

1 John 1:9 is the believers way to recover.

John is NOT saying,"people who practice sin are not born again."

John is saying," at the moment you are born again, you are not practicing sin."

And what about repeated habitual sin? Today you watch porn and ask forgiveness with God and after 10 days you do the same again and so on.

Will 1 John 1 support this attitude of a believer commiting same sin again and again?

 

[Ricko]

And what about repeated habitual sin? Today you watch porn and ask forgiveness with God and after 10 days you do the same again and so on.

Will 1 John 1 support this attitude of a believer commiting same sin again and again?

It is my understanding that if you do not confess and repent from that sin you are not born again. The lack of confession shows you don't agree with God that you are in sin. Now if you confess and repent but later stumble in this same sin you have already been saved, assuming there are no other sins your living with.

 

[jasonc]

It is my understanding that if you do not confess and repent from that sin you are not born again. The lack of confession shows you don't agree with God that you are in sin. Now if you confess and repent but later stumble in this same sin you have already been saved, assuming there are no other sins your living with.

so a Christian must be one who isn't bound by sins(stronghold sins) .there aren't Christians who get saved and have bad marriages as they never knew better until they were told by the holy spirit?former drug addicts also have a ton of other issues that drove them to that drug.

 

[FreeGrace]

And what about repeated habitual sin? Today you watch porn and ask forgiveness with God and after 10 days you do the same again and so on.

Your posts give me the impression that you believe that believers will never sin again. Is that correct?

Will 1 John 1 support this attitude of a believer commiting same sin again and again?

Not only does 1 Jn tell us that we will continue to sin, which is why John wrote 1 Jn 1:9, but also Matt 18:22-22 indicates the reality for believers who sin.

"21Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”22Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven."

Do you think God is more stingy with forgiveness than what He commands of human beings??

 

[FreeGrace]

It is my understanding that if you do not confess and repent from that sin you are not born again.

That would be a significant misunderstanding. One is born again when one believes in Christ for eternal life. 1 Jn 5:1

The lack of confession shows you don't agree with God that you are in sin.

This isn't the requirement for being born again, or having eternal life.

Now if you confess and repent but later stumble in this same sin you have already been saved, assuming there are no other sins your living with.

Do you really believe that believers can become sinless? That is clearly what your post indicates.

 

[Ricko]

That would be a significant misunderstanding. One is born again when one believes in Christ for eternal life. 1 Jn 5:1


This isn't the requirement for being born again, or having eternal life.


Do you really believe that believers can become sinless? That is clearly what your post indicates.

I guess I'm having a hard time expressing what I'm trying to say. No, I don't believe that once a person is born again he will not sin. We never lose that sin nature in this life. What I am trying to say is that is if a person is living in sin he cannot be saved until he addresses that sin. Would any believer want to live in sin? It is my belief that the person living in what God calls sin does not agree with God that it is a sin. They have no problem with that behavior. God calls it sin. Until that sin is addressed there is no eternal life given. Just professing faith isn't enough. Your heart has to be in it too. That's why Paul tells us to examine ourselves to see if we're in the faith.

 

[gr8grace3]

I guess I'm having a hard time expressing what I'm trying to say. No, I don't believe that once a person is born again he will not sin. We never lose that sin nature in this life. What I am trying to say is that is if a person is living in sin he cannot be saved until he addresses that sin. Would any believer want to live in sin? It is my belief that the person living in what God calls sin does not agree with God that it is a sin. They have no problem with that behavior. God calls it sin. Until that sin is addressed there is no eternal life given. Just professing faith isn't enough. Your heart has to be in it too. That's why Paul tells us to examine ourselves to see if we're in the faith.

The bold statement above.

This says to me, that one has to be sinless. What is sin in your opinion? Are you saved at this moment, given your view?

 

[Deborah13]

I guess I'm having a hard time expressing what I'm trying to say. No, I don't believe that once a person is born again he will not sin. We never lose that sin nature in this life. What I am trying to say is that is if a person is living in sin he cannot be saved until he addresses that sin. Would any believer want to live in sin? It is my belief that the person living in what God calls sin does not agree with God that it is a sin. They have no problem with that behavior. God calls it sin. Until that sin is addressed there is no eternal life given. Just professing faith isn't enough. Your heart has to be in it too. That's why Paul tells us to examine ourselves to see if we're in the faith.

What do you mean by "addressed" in this statement? Addressed how?

 

[gr8grace3]

I guess I'm having a hard time expressing what I'm trying to say. No, I don't believe that once a person is born again he will not sin. We never lose that sin nature in this life. What I am trying to say is that is if a person is living in sin he cannot be saved until he addresses that sin. Would any believer want to live in sin? It is my belief that the person living in what God calls sin does not agree with God that it is a sin. They have no problem with that behavior. God calls it sin. Until that sin is addressed there is no eternal life given. Just professing faith isn't enough. Your heart has to be in it too. That's why Paul tells us to examine ourselves to see if we're in the faith.

New American Standard Bible
"The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it? Jer 17:9


New American Standard Bible
"And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, Eze 11:19

In your view, we have to address sin first in order to have the new heart. So are you dealing with your sin in your deceitful, stone heart?

 

[Ricko]

The bold statement above.

This says to me, that one has to be sinless. What is sin in your opinion? Are you saved at this moment, given your view?

Again, I'm having trouble explaining myself. Let me try this scenario... In IL they recently passed a law legalizing same sex marriage. That is an example of living in sin. If a person continues to live that way without confessing their sin, they can't be saved. It is the state of not recognizing sin as sin. Basically disagreeing with what God has said. The word translated to confess means to say the same thing or to agree with God. Yes, I am saved.

 

[Ricko]

What do you mean by "addressed" in this statement? Addressed how?

I meant to confess.