Is Sinning on Purpose Willful Sin ?

[gr8grace3]

Again, I'm having trouble explaining myself. Let me try this scenario... In IL they recently passed a law legalizing same sex marriage. That is an example of living in sin. If a person continues to live that way without confessing their sin, they can't be saved. It is the state of not recognizing sin as sin. Basically disagreeing with what God has said. The word translated to confess means to say the same thing or to agree with God. Yes, I am saved.

So, you think you have addressed ALL of your sin, since you consider yourself saved?

 

[Ricko]

So, you think you have addressed ALL of your sin, since you consider yourself saved?

I ask God for help for every single day with my own struggles.

 

[Deborah13]

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Personally I believe that the translations that say "practice sin" are incorrect.
The Greek word used in this verse is....G4160 not G4238
G4160 = poieo
Apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary; to make or do (in a very wide application, more or less direct): - abide, + agree, appoint, X avenge, + band together, be, bear, + bewray, bring (forth), cast out, cause, commit, + content, continue, deal, + without any delay, (would) do (-ing), execute, exercise, fulfil, gain, give, have, hold, X journeying, keep, + lay wait, + lighten the ship, make, X mean, + none of these things move me, observe, ordain, perform, provide, + have purged, purpose, put, + raising up, X secure, shew, X shoot out, spend, take, tarry, + transgress the law, work, yield.

Compare G4238 = prasso
A primary verb; to “practise”, that is, perform repeatedly or habitually (thus differing from G4160, which properly refers to a single act); by implication to execute, accomplish, etc.; specifically to collect (dues), fare (personally): - commit, deeds, do, exact, keep, require, use arts.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commitG4160 sin;G266 for his seed....
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have doneG4238 evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Rom 2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commitG4238 such things.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Even if the seal of the Holy Spirit could be broken - where is that seal, and where would you start? What are its adhesives, or binders, or properties that a man may be familiar with?

Faith.

 

[jonahmano]

Your posts give me the impression that you believe that believers will never sin again. Is that correct?

I don't believe that believers won't sin but repeat offenders???. committing the same sin again and again is not in line with the scripture.

Hebrews 10:26 KJV - For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Not only does 1 Jn tell us that we will continue to sin, which is why John wrote 1 Jn 1:9, but also Matt 18:22-22 indicates the reality for believers who sin.

"21Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”22Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven."

Do you think God is more stingy with forgiveness than what He commands of human beings??

I don't think the above verses which you quoted is fitting for willfully sinning again and again. It's like a pastor having an illicit relationship with the church member and he desperately want to come out of it but because of the lust he couldn't.

 

[Deborah13]

I don't believe that believers won't sin but repeat offenders???. committing the same sin again and again is not in line with the scripture.

Hebrews 10:26 KJV - For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,




I don't think the above verses which you quoted is fitting for willfully sinning again and again. It's like a pastor having an illicit relationship with the church member and he desperately want to come out of it but because of the lust he couldn't.

KJV
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Quote....Adam Clarke's Commentary
"For if we sin wilfully - If we deliberately, for fear of persecution or from any other motive, renounce the profession of the Gospel and the Author of that Gospel, after having received the knowledge of the truth so as to be convinced that Jesus is the promised Messiah, and that he had sprinkled our hearts from an evil conscience; for such there remaineth no sacrifice for sins; for as the Jewish sacrifices are abolished, as appears by the declaration of God himself in the fortieth Psalm, and Jesus being now the only sacrifice which God will accept, those who reject him have none other; therefore their case must be utterly without remedy. This is the meaning of the apostle, and the case is that of a deliberate apostate - one who has utterly rejected Jesus Christ and his atonement, and renounced the whole Gospel system. It has nothing to do with backsliders in our common use of that term. A man may be overtaken in a fault, or he may deliberately go into sin, and yet neither renounce the Gospel, nor deny the Lord that bought him. His case is dreary and dangerous, but it is not hopeless; no case is hopeless but that of the deliberate apostate, who rejects the whole Gospel system, after having been saved by grace, or convinced of the truth of the Gospel. To him there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin; for there was but the One, Jesus, and this he has utterly rejected."
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/clarke/hebrews/10.htm

 

[FreeGrace]

I guess I'm having a hard time expressing what I'm trying to say. No, I don't believe that once a person is born again he will not sin. We never lose that sin nature in this life. What I am trying to say is that is if a person is living in sin he cannot be saved until he addresses that sin.

Which Scripture says that one must address any specific sin BEFORE he can be saved? There are many verses that clearly state that one must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved. Since Christ died for all sin, sin isn't an issue in being saved. The issue is receiving eternal life. And that is received only by believing in Jesus Christ.

Would any believer want to live in sin?

To be clear, no believer should want to. But the reality is that many actually do. It's called self centeredness. When believers are focused on self, they are fleshly/carnal.

Consider Paul's words in Eph 4:17 - So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,

The Greek word for "no longer" is exactly the same as found in Acts 4:17, when the Jewish leaders ordered that Peter and John "no longer speak to anyone in this name". iow, they were doing exactly that and were being ordered to stop doing it.

That is the same message that Paul gave to the Ephesians. Stop sinning.

All believers sin and no one reaches sinless perfection. The issue is not to become sinless, but to sin less.

It is my belief that the person living in what God calls sin does not agree with God that it is a sin.

Some do. But in their self centeredness, they choose what they want; not what the Lord commands.

They have no problem with that behavior. God calls it sin. Until that sin is addressed there is no eternal life given.

I will challenge you again to provide any verse that supports your belief. I've never seen any verse that teaches what you believe on this. Sin is present in our lives and will be until we depart and be with the Lord. But sin is NO issue in receiving eternal life. It is given on the basis of faith in Christ.

Just professing faith isn't enough. Your heart has to be in it too. That's why Paul tells us to examine ourselves to see if we're in the faith.

To be clear, profession isn't the issue. Believing in Christ is the issue. Not what one says, but what one believes. When one takes God at His word (faith) in His promise to give eternal life to those who believe (Jn 6:40), they receive eternal life. Again, sin isn't the issue regarding eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace]

Again, I'm having trouble explaining myself. Let me try this scenario... In IL they recently passed a law legalizing same sex marriage. That is an example of living in sin. If a person continues to live that way without confessing their sin, they can't be saved.

What Scripture says that one must confess their sin to be saved? I'm not aware of any verse that says that. otoh, there are many verses that say that one is saved by faith. Not confession.

Possibly the confusion is what confession is about. In 1 Jn 1:9 John says that if we confess our sins, God will forgive us. This isn't salvation. This verse is for those who are already saved. We know that from the context at the beginning of the chapter. This is what Jesus was referring to in John 13 when He was washing the disciples' feet and Peter refused the washing, so Jesus said unless He washed his feet, Peter would have "no part" with Him. This wasn't salvation, but fellowship. (count the number of times 'fellowship' occurs in 1 Jn 1) Then Peter continued to be confused and said, "then not just my feet, but give me a whole bath" (paraphrased). Jesus said that he was "already clean", meaning already saved, and noted that "not all of you are clean", referring to the unsaved Judas, who betrayed Him.

Believers need to regularly confess their sin (agree with God about their sin) for continued fellowship. Apart from confession, fellowship is broken and the daily life of the believer results in geting their feet "dirty" and in need of cleaning.

That was Jesus' point in John 13 when He was demonstrating servanthood.

It is the state of not recognizing sin as sin.

There are sins that believers may not be aware of as sin, but most of the time, they actually do. But maybe just not at the time they are sinning. In the case of 'living in sin', they have made a choice to deny that it is sin, or they just choose to keep doing it because they want to. Clearly, they are not in fellowship, and are not going to be blessed in their life, and they will lose eternal reward because of it. No one gets away with anything.

2 Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Basically disagreeing with what God has said.

Every time we sin we disagree with God.

The word translated to confess means to say the same thing or to agree with God. Yes, I am saved.

You are saved only if you believe God's promise of eternal life through faith in His Son who died on the cross for your sin.

 

[FreeGrace]

I ask God for help for every single day with my own struggles.

In addition, we must apply 1 John 1:9 and confess every sin we are aware of.

 

[FreeGrace]

I don't believe that believers won't sin but repeat offenders???.

OK, so you don't believe that believers become sinless. Good. But now it appears you think that believers aren't going to repeat any sin. We all have trends in our sin natures. Some have trends towards lasciviousness, and some have trends towards self-righteousness. Their behaviors are quite different, but both will sin in their area of trend. We always repeat those sin that so "easily beset us", according to Heb 12:1.

committing the same sin again and again is not in line with the scripture.

Right.

Hebrews 10:26 KJV - For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Back up to v.18. The point is that because Christ died for all sin, He is the perfect sacrifice and returning to the OT sacrifices won't work now.

I don't think the above verses which you quoted is fitting for willfully sinning again and again. It's like a pastor having an illicit relationship with the church member and he desperately want to come out of it but because of the lust he couldn't.

You are welcome to your opinion.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It is clear from the whole counsel of the scriptures that the one who lives a lifestyle of unrepentant sin is not born again:

7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother." (1 John 3:7-10 NASB)

Paul is basically saying the same thing here:

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-10 NASB)

19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity,sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes,dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21 NASB)

We don't need to twist and contrive interpretations to make these passages go away. The person who acts like they are not born again is not born again. It is completely false to think you can live in the way described above and still think you are born again. So, at the very least the only thing an OSASer can argue is that a born again person will never fail in his faith in the forgiveness of God. But even that has it's own difficulties with scripture. Non-OSAS is the only doctrine that squares with the scriptures and does not need creative 10 page explanations to make it sensible.

So much confusion and debate comes not from the scriptures, but from this relentless effort to avoid the naughty words of the church--law and works. As if those words instantly and categorically and without exception are equivalent to Paul's works gospel in his famous grace/works teaching. Let's stop being afraid of 'works' and begin to soberly and honestly understand what it is about works that is bad....and it surely isn't that we as Spirit-filled Christians, because of the nature of what faith is, are required to walk in them.

 

[chessman]

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? ...

those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21 NASB)

Both are convicting Scripture to those perishing without Christ residing in them. And training for those of us still living with the old-man and the New Resident within us.

1 John 2:12 (LEB) I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you on account of his name.​

John writes an Encouraging Scripture to those newly born in Christ.

1 John 2:14 I have written to you, children, because you have known the Father.​

John writes further encouragment to those who have come to know The Father.

I have written to you, fathers, because you have known the One who is from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God resides in you, and you have conquered the evil one.​

John writes of the done deal assurance of salvation to the mature that reads all The Pages of The Word. (That is if you believe in the God who is The Word and that resides in believers. That God never fails).

 

[Deborah13]

What Scripture says that one must confess their sin to be saved? I'm not aware of any verse that says that. otoh, there are many verses that say that one is saved by faith. Not confession.

Paul says to "repent" (change your mind, agree with God) and be saved.
If one has not done this, they do not believe they need a Redeemer, a Savior. And they are in the exact position of being in darkness that John is talking about in 1John 1.
Positionally, they are not in Christ, in the light, because they do not believe they have sinned. They are not in fellowship [partnership] with Christ. They remain in darkness.
1John 1, is all about accepting who Christ is and what He did, so that one will be in fellowship [partnership]. It about believing the message that the apostle preached, the very one's who saw Him and touched Him, in the flesh.

Possibly the confusion is what confession is about. In 1 Jn 1:9 John says that if we confess our sins, God will forgive us. This isn't salvation. This verse is for those who are already saved.

I agree there is confusion about this verse.
This verse is not for those that are saved.

Part of the confusion is because John has written in second person verbiage. Which we often do ourselves, in a sense of meekness and humbleness rather than using accusatory verbiage.

 

[FreeGrace]

It is clear from the whole counsel of the scriptures that the one who lives a lifestyle of unrepentant sin is not born again:

Nope. Scripture is clear that such believers are disobedient children of God and will suffer the consequences of loss of blessings in time and loss of reward in eternity. All the verses you think mean what you believe don't mean that.

We don't need to twist and contrive interpretations to make these passages go away.

I don't make any passage go away. Why haven't you dealt with all my verses and points? All you've done is make your claim, cite your verses and ignore mine. Until you explain how and why my verses don't say what I believe they mean, there is no reason to believe your view.

The person who acts like they are not born again is not born again.

You like to state your opinion. But you have no support from Scripture to back it up.

It is completely false to think you can live in the way described above and still think you are born again.

In fact, it is completely false to think that one's lifestyle has anything to do with being born again.

So, at the very least the only thing an OSASer can argue is that a born again person will never fail in his faith in the forgiveness of God.

I've already dealt with this, and you've again ignored it. That view comes from Calvinism, who dismisses one's faith if they fail to persevere. They have the same lack of evidence for their view as you do for yours. They claim one who lives that way was never saved to begin with. No Scripture to back that up. Your view that one who lives that way loses salvation also has no Scripture to back it up.

I'd love if you would address my points from post #68:
You're still missing the guarantee in the Bible. Here it is again.

1. Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would be with each believer forever. Jn 14:16
2. Paul said the indwelling Holy Spirit is a pledge or guarantee for the day of redemption.
3. Paul said that even if we (believers) are unfaithful (lack faith), God remains faithful. 2 Tim 2:13
4. God cannot deny Himself. 2 Tim 2:13
5. The Holy Spirit indwells everyone who has believed and seals them for the day of redemption.

If one follows each point here, there is no other conclusion than when one believes they are guaranteed salvation on the day of redemption.

You are going to have to unpack each of these 5 points in order to refute them using Scripture.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That view comes from Calvinism, who dismisses one's faith if they fail to persevere.
[...]
They claim one who lives that way was never saved to begin with. No Scripture to back that up.

Right. Which leaves you no choice but to acknowledge the simple truth in between 'turning back to the world and still being saved', and 'not being able to go back to the world'. That simple truth being non-OSAS which says one is saved as long as they continue in their faith. You and so many in the church are so desperately afraid to acknowledge man's duty to continue to have faith to be saved in the uneducated fear that acknowledging that would make that continuing faith somehow the works of the law that Paul says can not justify.

All of this confusion and debate because the Protestant church, in general, has failed to understand what works can not justify a man. Somehow even faith in Christ got scooped up into the works that can not justify. How ridiculous.

OSAS can end this argument once and for all when they show us in Paul's grace/ works teachings that even continuing to believe in God's forgiveness to the very end is included in the works of the law that Paul says can not justify. So let's stop these meaningless, detailed, creative OSAS interpretations that require us to read past plain words of scripture and get right to the point. How is it that continuing to believe is a work of the law that can not justify?

 

[gr8grace3]

Paul says to "repent" (change your mind, agree with God) and be saved.
If one has not done this, they do not believe they need a Redeemer, a Savior. And they are in the exact position of being in darkness that John is talking about in 1John 1.
Positionally, they are not in Christ, in the light, because they do not believe they have sinned. They are not in fellowship [partnership] with Christ. They remain in darkness.
1John 1, is all about accepting who Christ is and what He did, so that one will be in fellowship [partnership]. It about believing the message that the apostle preached, the very one's who saw Him and touched Him, in the flesh.


I agree there is confusion about this verse.
This verse is not for those that are saved.

Part of the confusion is because John has written in second person verbiage. Which we often do ourselves, in a sense of meekness and humbleness rather than using accusatory verbiage.

What do you do after you sin then?
1 John 1:3~~the definition of Christian fellowship.

1 John 1:4~~result of Christian fellowship

1 John 1:5~~Christian fellowship analogy

1 John 1:6~~worldly contradiction to Christian fellowship

1 John 1:7~~True Christian fellowship basis

1 John 1:8,10~~ True Christian fellowship destroyed

1 John 1:9~~True Christian fellowship restored.

Do you believe John was using second person verbiage in verses 8 and 10 in 1 John?

Jer 3:13-14~~13‘Only acknowledge your iniquity,
That you have transgressed against the LORD your God
And have scattered your favors to the strangers under every green tree,
And you have not obeyed My voice,’ declares the LORD.

14‘Return, O faithless sons,’ declares the LORD;
‘For I am a master to you,
And I will take you one from a city and two from a family,
And I will bring you to Zion.’

 

[gr8grace3]

Right. Which leaves you no choice but to acknowledge the simple truth in between 'turning back to the world and still being saved', and 'not being able to go back to the world'. That simple truth being non-OSAS which says one is saved as long as they continue in their faith. You and so many in the church are so desperately afraid to acknowledge man's duty to continue to have faith to be saved in the uneducated fear that acknowledging that would make that continuing faith somehow the works of the law that Paul says can not justify.

All of this confusion and debate because the Protestant church, in general, has failed to understand what works can not justify a man. Somehow even faith in Christ got scooped up into the works that can not justify. How ridiculous.

OSAS can end this argument once and for all when they show us in Paul's grace/ works teachings that even continuing to believe in God's forgiveness to the very end is included in the works of the law that Paul says can not justify. So let's stop these meaningless, detailed, creative OSAS interpretations that require us to read past plain words of scripture and get right to the point. How is it that continuing to believe is a work of the law that can not justify?

This is the Key Jethro......do you think your faith has MERIT?

Rom 3:27~~New American Standard Bible
Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

Faith is non meritorious. If we could lose our salvation by losing our faith there would be merit attached to our faith.

Your faith would have to have MERIT if you could lose salvation by losing your faith.

 

[iLOVE]

"What can wash away my sins? Nothing but the blood of Jesus!"

JESUS through his sacrifice had remitted the sins already!!!

 

[FreeGrace]

Right. Which leaves you no choice but to acknowledge the simple truth in between 'turning back to the world and still being saved', and 'not being able to go back to the world'.

What are you talking about? Please provide verses that support your claims. I'm not aware of any verse that even suggests what you post here.

That simple truth being non-OSAS which says one is saved as long as they continue in their faith.

I keep asking for any verse that plainly says that salvation is based on continued faith, and you have failed to provide any.

Further, the aorist tense refutes your idea, but you have ignored the significance of the aorist tense.

You and so many in the church are so desperately afraid to acknowledge man's duty to continue to have faith to be saved in the uneducated fear that acknowledging that would make that continuing faith somehow the works of the law that Paul says can not justify.

Nonsense. I know the truth; nothing in the present nor future (Rom 8:38) can separate us who have believed from the love of Christ. But you don't believe that.

All of this confusion and debate because the Protestant church, in general, has failed to understand what works can not justify a man. Somehow even faith in Christ got scooped up into the works that can not justify. How ridiculous.

Not my view. Paul contrasted faith from works twice: Eph 2:8,9 and Rom 4:4,5. Faith is not works.

Faith is grace, and works is not grace. They are quite different.

OSAS can end this argument once and for all when they show us in Paul's grace/ works teachings that even continuing to believe in God's forgiveness to the very end is included in the works of the law that Paul says can not justify.

Since Paul's answer to the jailer used the aorist tense for 'believe', the argument is ended once and for all.

So let's stop these meaningless, detailed, creative OSAS interpretations that require us to read past plain words of scripture and get right to the point. How is it that continuing to believe is a work of the law that can not justify?

How come you again ignored my 5 points which proves OSAS?

Here they are again:
1. Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would be with each believer forever. Jn 14:16
2. Paul said the indwelling Holy Spirit is a pledge or guarantee for the day of redemption.
3. Paul said that even if we (believers) are unfaithful (lack faith), God remains faithful. 2 Tim 2:13
4. God cannot deny Himself. 2 Tim 2:13
5. The Holy Spirit indwells everyone who has believed and seals them for the day of redemption.

If one follows each point here, there is no other conclusion than when one believes they are guaranteed salvation on the day of redemption.

You are going to have to unpack each of these 5 points in order to refute them using Scripture.

 

[Ricko]

What Scripture says that one must confess their sin to be saved? I'm not aware of any verse that says that. otoh, there are many verses that say that one is saved by faith. Not confession.

(Edit, ToS 2.7: All Bible verses and passages must be referenced (NASB, NIV, etc.) unless it is public domain like the KJV, YLT, etc. Obadiah)