Is Sinning on Purpose Willful Sin ?

[Jethro Bodine]

The Greek for "will be saved" is FUTURE tense...

He's inviting them to believe, so how it can it not be? That hardly means salvation can not be reversed.

btw, sincd you bring up irreversible, please deal with Rom 6:23 and 11:29. Eternal life is a gift and God's gifts are irrevocable, which is the same as irreversible.

How does God's promise to one day redeem the nation of Israel mean that once you are saved you are always saved? The branches grafted back in at that time will not be the same branches that got broken off.

 

[Ricko]

I gave you the verses:
In Gal 5:19-22, which parallels 1 Cor 6:9-10 and Eph 5:5, is a warning of loss of the reward of co-reigning with Christ for those believers who are faithless and disobedient. To co-reign with Christ is earned, per Rom 8:17b and 2 Tim 2:12. Those believers will be in the kingdom, but on the sidelines, rather than actively participating with Christ's kingdom.

Non of those verses speak of being on the sidelines. we either inherit the kingdom or we don't.

I said this:
2 Pet 2:22 is about believers who return to their former lifestyles. How is it "worse at the end"? This isn't about loss of salvation, but worse in their present life. It is worse because they lose out on God's blessings in their lives, and the discipline that God dishes out to those children who are disobedient (Heb 12). Let's not forget; God knows perfectly how to spank His children.

Let's see what Scripture says about who he was addressing in 2 Peter:
1Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

I disagree with your opinion, given 1:1.

Peter is warning in 2 Peter 2:1 that false teachers had secretly introduced heresies and that many would follow them. They were never believers.

 

[FreeGrace]

He's inviting them to believe, so how it can it not be? That hardly means salvation can not be reversed.

The point remains; believe in a point in time, and one WILL BE saved in the future. It doesn't depend upon what happens between moment of belief and death.

Also, there are 6 Biblical principles which preclude the possibility of salvation being "reversed". (that's a new one)

1. Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would be with each believer forever. Jn 14:16
2. Paul said the indwelling Holy Spirit is a pledge or guarantee for the day of redemption.
3. Paul said that even if we (believers) are unfaithful (lack faith), God remains faithful. 2 Tim 2:13
4. God cannot deny Himself. 2 Tim 2:13
5. The Holy Spirit indwells everyone who has believed and seals them for the day of redemption.
6. Eternal life is a gift (Rom 6:23) and God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

If one follows each point here, there is no other conclusion than when one believes they are guaranteed salvation on the day of redemption.

Until someone is able to clearly refute my understanding of these verses, there is no reason to accept your view.

[QUOTEHow does God's promise to one day redeem the nation of Israel mean that once you are saved you are always saved?[/QUOTE]
See the 6 principles above for the answer. And I'm not talking about God's promise to the nation of Israel, but to EVERY believer in Jesus Christ.

The branches grafted back in at that time will not be the same branches that got broken off.

Irrelevant to the discussion. See the 6 principles for the reason that once saved, always saved.

 

[FreeGrace]

Non of those verses speak of being on the sidelines. we either inherit the kingdom or we don't.

My point as well. Those who havent inherited the kingdom aren't "reigning with Christ". So what are they doing? Standing around on the sidelines. Why would you think the Bible would use "sideline" kind of language. The point is that inheriting the kingdom is based on works, not belief. Inheriting the kingdom is for faithful and obedient children of God. Not all of His children.

Peter is warning in 2 Peter 2:1 that false teachers had secretly introduced heresies and that many would follow them. They were never believers.

Agreed. But what does this have to do with the discussion?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The point remains; believe in a point in time, and one WILL BE saved in the future. It doesn't depend upon what happens between moment of belief and death.

Okay, good, you agree that the future tense in the verse means nothing in regard to whether or not the believing they are invited to do will result in a salvation that can never end, or not.

Also, there are 6 Biblical principles which preclude the possibility of salvation being "reversed". (that's a new one)

1. Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would be with each believer forever. Jn 14:16

We know from the whole counsel of scripture that 'forever' is depenent on enduring to the very end in your faith.

2. Paul said the indwelling Holy Spirit is a pledge or guarantee for the day of redemption.

The Holy Spirit is secured through believing in Christ's blood. You must continue in the exact same faith that got you the Holy Spirit in the first place to continue to have the Holy Spirit that believing secured for you.

3. Paul said that even if we (believers) are unfaithful (lack faith), God remains faithful. 2 Tim 2:13

As has been pointed out right from the passage itself, it is impossible that 'being faithless' and 'denying Christ' are the same thing. Denying Christ is how you lose the salvation. You do not lose it by being faithless in daily living as part of the growing pains of being a Christian who is struggling but who is still clinging fast to the forgiveness of God they have received through their belief in Christ.

4. God cannot deny Himself. 2 Tim 2:13

Right. If you deny Christ you no longer belong to him that he should have some kind of obligation to not deny you.

5. The Holy Spirit indwells everyone who has believed and seals them for the day of redemption.

Stop believing and you lose that which binds you to the Holy Spirit.

6. Eternal life is a gift (Rom 6:23) and God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

The context of Romans 11:29 NASB is the nation of Israel that has been cut out of the tree because of unbelief. His promise to redeem Israel will be fulfilled in future generations of different Israelites, not the ones who were previously cut out of the tree. This passage means the promise that can not be broken is to the nation of Israel as a whole, not individual Israelites who are cut out of the tree because of unbelief but who are then grafted back into the tree.

If one follows each point here, there is no other conclusion than when one believes they are guaranteed salvation on the day of redemption.

Until someone is able to clearly refute my understanding of these verses, there is no reason to accept your view.

All easily refuted, and done so again for the benefit of any new comers to this forum.

And I'm not talking about God's promise to the nation of Israel, but to EVERY believer in Jesus Christ.

Irrelevant to the discussion. See the 6 principles for the reason that once saved, always saved.

But the passage is talking about God's promise to the nation of Israel, so what is irrelevant is the insistence that it is a OSAS passage that is speaking about individual believers who turn back to unbelief and then are later grafted back into the tree.

Who gets grafted back in are later, different generations of Israelites, not the ones who died in unbelief and are now dead and gone. They have nothing left to look forward to but the fire of God's Judgment that will consume his enemies.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

My point as well. Those who havent inherited the kingdom aren't "reigning with Christ". So what are they doing? Standing around on the sidelines. Why would you think the Bible would use "sideline" kind of language. The point is that inheriting the kingdom is based on works, not belief. Inheriting the kingdom is for faithful and obedient children of God. Not all of His children.

26 and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; 27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life." (Revelation 21:26-27 NASB)

7 "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelation 21:7-8 NASB)

"15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:15 NASB)

You see there is no middle ground for these disobedient 'believers' you speak of who simply lose the inheritance of the kingdom. If you are not in the kingdom of God then you will be in the lake of Fire.

 

[FreeGrace]

Okay, good, you agree that the future tense in the verse means nothing in regard to whether or not the believing they are invited to do will result in a salvation that can never end, or not.

You seriously misunderstood my post. From the aorist tense, which ignores duration, at the moment in time when one believes, they WILL BE saved. That is a guarantee that you just don't want to acknowledge.

We know from the whole counsel of scripture that 'forever' is depenent on enduring to the very end in your faith.

But there are no verses that say such a thing. In fact, that idea is refuted soundly by Paul in Rom 8:38-39 - 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The phrase "nor things to come" includes ANYTHING that may occur in the future. That refutes your idea.

The Holy Spirit is secured through believing in Christ's blood. You must continue in the exact same faith that got you the Holy Spirit in the first place to continue to have the Holy Spirit that believing secured for you.

You keep saying that but without any Scripture to support your idea.

As has been pointed out right from the passage itself, it is impossible that 'being faithless' and 'denying Christ' are the same thing.

Easy to say, but not so easy to prove. v12 and v.13 to together. They ARE talking about the same thing.

Denying Christ is how you lose the salvation.

Please show me even just one verse that says that in plain and direct language. So far, you haven't.

Right. If you deny Christ you no longer belong to him that he should have some kind of obligation to not deny you.

Where do you find in Scripture that those who deny Christ no longer belong to Him?

Stop believing and you lose that which binds you to the Holy Spirit.

Yet you are unable to provide any Scripture to support your idea.

The context of Romans 11:29 NASB is the nation of Israel that has been cut out of the tree because of unbelief.

Nope. It's a statement of fact. God's gifts and callings are irrevocable. All of them. One must dance quite vigorously in order to dodge the obvious truth about eternal life being a gift that is irrevocable.

You see, I provide verses that actually plainly and directly support my view.

All easily refuted, and done so again for the benefit of any new comers to this forum.

To be clear, I've refuted all your attempts to refute my points.

 

[Ricko]

My point as well. Those who havent inherited the kingdom aren't "reigning with Christ". So what are they doing? Standing around on the sidelines. Why would you think the Bible would use "sideline" kind of language. The point is that inheriting the kingdom is based on works, not belief. Inheriting the kingdom is for faithful and obedient children of God. Not all of His children.?

So those that have good works will reign with Christ and those that believe will just be hanging around. Is that your view? What about those who practice the lusts of the flesh. Where are they?

 

[FreeGrace]

So those that have good works will reign with Christ and those that believe will just be hanging around. Is that your view? What about those who practice the lusts of the flesh. Where are they?

With the rest who have believed but produced no good works. btw, the ones who will reign with Christ ALSO believed in Him. Your response seems to have missed that very important point.

 

[FreeGrace]

26 and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; 27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life." (Revelation 21:26-27 NASB)

7 "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelation 21:7-8 NASB)

"15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:15 NASB)

You see there is no middle ground for these disobedient 'believers' you speak of who simply lose the inheritance of the kingdom. If you are not in the kingdom of God then you will be in the lake of Fire.

I've never said anything about a middle ground. One is either saved or unsaved. All who have believed are saved. Those who have never believed are unsaved.

Your view ignores all the verses that speak clearly of reward for obedience and faithfulness. How do you understand those verses?

Do you believe that salvation is ultimately a reward? If you do, then your view is nothing more than a works based system of salvation. Rewards are earned, by definition. Reward isn't about grace, but what is earned.

The primary problem with your view is the lack of verses that specifically and directly say what you believe. No verse says that salvation can be lost. None. Your view confuses salvation with reward. Reward most certainly can be lost.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I've never said anything about a middle ground. One is either saved or unsaved. All who have believed are saved. Those who have never believed are unsaved.

Your view ignores all the verses that speak clearly of reward for obedience and faithfulness. How do you understand those verses?

Do you believe that salvation is ultimately a reward? If you do, then your view is nothing more than a works based system of salvation. Rewards are earned, by definition. Reward isn't about grace, but what is earned.

The primary problem with your view is the lack of verses that specifically and directly say what you believe. No verse says that salvation can be lost. None. Your view confuses salvation with reward. Reward most certainly can be lost.

I'm well aware of loss of rewards. If the 'things' we work on do not survive the fires of Judgment those 'things' will not be in the kingdom with us to be a source of praise and exultation for us.

In regard to your argument, if loss of reward means not being in the kingdom, but instead being somewhere outside of it, but yet still saved, then, as we can easily see from the scriptures that I posted that you have no basis of scripture for your arguments that change the plain scriptures about losing salvation into scriptures that teach loss of reward.

"6 ...Christ was faithful as a Son over His house -whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end." (Hebrews 3:6 NASB)

"14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end" (Hebrews 3:14 NASB)

"1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

"...you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited , but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell,severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cutoff. " (Romans 11:20-22 NASB)

"22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach - 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard" (Romans 11:22-23 NASB)

"23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:23-24 NASB)

"14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain. " (Philippians 2:14-16 NASB)

The only way OSAS can make these clear passages of scripture go away is to redefine terms to make what is lost the rewards of having faith in Christ, and not the loss of salvation itself. To be OSAS you have to look past the plain words of scripture and rely on pre-determined definitions to make the obvious go away. And yet it is non-OSAS that is accused of not having any clear scriptures about losing salvation. It's a very dishonest and deceitful doctrine.

I decided I'm not going to be dishonest anymore about the scriptures. I'm done with the "it doesn't really say, or mean that" doctrines of the church. I would be a liar to tell people these scriptures don't really mean what they so plainly say. It's so obvious--when you're honest with yourself--that OSAS has to twist and reinterpret so many passages of scripture to defend it's doctrine, but non-OSAS simply reads what is written. If this were about one, maybe two scriptures I'd understand, but seven and more? Good grief!

 

[FreeGrace]

I'm well aware of loss of rewards. If the 'things' we work on do not survive the fires of Judgment those 'things' will not be in the kingdom with us to be a source of praise and exultation for us.

Glad to know you are aware of loss of rewards. That's what all the warning passages are about.

In regard to your argument, if loss of reward means not being in the kingdom, but instead being somewhere outside of it, but yet still saved, then, as we can easily see from the scriptures that I posted that you have no basis of scripture for your arguments that change the plain scriptures about losing salvation into scriptures that teach loss of reward.

That's not my position. The issue in those warning passages is about inheritance IN the kingdom, not about getting into the kingdom.

The only way OSAS can make these clear passages of scripture go away is to redefine terms to make what is lost the rewards of having faith in Christ, and not the loss of salvation itself.

None of those verses you provided says anything about loss of salvation.

The problem with your conditional salvation view is that it treats salvation as an object rather than a relationship. The relationship is between spiritual BIRTH Father and child, which cannot be broken. Which is why God chose to use that terminology in describing the relationship between Himself and those who have believed. Such a relationship cannot be "undone", no matter how much squinting, squirming, or anything else you may do.

To be OSAS you have to look past the plain words of scripture and rely on pre-determined definitions to make the obvious go away. And yet it is non-OSAS that is accused of not having any clear scriptures about losing salvation. It's a very dishonest and deceitful doctrine.

The Truth is that non-OSAS has no clearly and plainly stated verses about loss of salvation. Period.

I decided I'm not going to be dishonest anymore about the scriptures. I'm done with the "it doesn't really say, or mean that" doctrines of the church. I would be a liar to tell people these scriptures don't really mean what they so plainly say.

What you think is so "plainly", is only your bias towards Scripture. I've shown you many verses that clearly indicate that salvation cannot be lost.

It's so obvious--when you're honest with yourself--that OSAS has to twist and reinterpret so many passages of scripture to defend it's doctrine, but non-OSAS simply reads what is written. If this were about one, maybe two scriptures I'd understand, but seven and more? Good grief!

None of your verses says what you claim.

You cannot provide any Scripture that indicates that our Parent-child relationship can be severed. None.

Once again, what you think is warning of loss of salvation is loss of eternal rewards. And it takes no twisting at all to understand that.

Rom 8:38 completely refutes your view. Nothing in the future can separate us from the love of God in Christ. That means anything that may happen, which has to include loss of faith. But that just bugs you a bunch. But it's God's plan of GRACE, not your opinion that counts.

Until you undestand the significance of the RELATIONSHIP aspect of salvation and all that it entails, there really isn't anything more to say. A disobedient child is STILL the child of the parent. That NEVER changes.

You never did refute any of my 6 principles. You redefined and twisted the verses I provided, which actually DO say what I believe. And you provided no Scripture to support your own view.

This conversation is going nowhere. I understand what the RELATIONSHIP means. You obviously do not.

God gives His life, which is eternal life, to those who believe in Christ. Such life cannot die, yet you believe that one with eternal life can end up in the second death. That is just bizarre.

 

[gr8grace3]

"6 ...Christ was faithful as a Son over His house -whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end." (Hebrews 3:6 NASB)

Yet another verse with eternal security in it.

Why did you leave the "but" out of the verse? That is an important part of the verse. This is a great eternal security verse. Christ is faithful, far greater than the servant Moses.
11It is a trustworthy statement:
For if(and we have) we died with Him, we will also live with Him;

12If(maybe we will,maybe we won't) we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him(our endurance), He also will deny us;.......deny us reign.

13If we are faithless(Walked away), He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.(Vs 11, we are in union/identified with Him in His life and death.)


Notice some translations say,"if indeed we hold fast..." This is the intensive use of the conditional conjunction. The writer is stating another condition(fact), not a conditional aspect of being a house. The writer was stating the fact that they were holding fast. "Since" is a better English word for the conditional conjunction"If" in this verse.

..."Since we hold fast our confidence.." The writer was stating the condition that the "holy Brothers" were living in.

"14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end" (Hebrews 3:14 NASB)

Yet Another verse with eternal security in it.

"Have become" is in the perfect tense. The perfect tense emphasizes the continuing results of being partakers with Christ. Partakers forever.

Again, you will notice that some translations use,"If indeed." It again is the intensive use of the conditional conjunction. The writer was stating the condition(fact) that the Hebrew brothers were living in. "..Since we hold fast.."

"1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

Yet another verse with eternal security in it. And again, why are you leaving parts of the verse out?..............Unless you believed in vain

"stand" is in the perfect tense. The perfect tense is an intensive perfect, it emphasizes the continuing result of "Stand".....standing forever.
The perfect tense is an intensive perfect, which conveys the idea of a present state resulting from a past action. This emphasizes the present state of being, the continuing result, the finished produce, and the fact that a thing is.


"If" is the first class conditional clause......,"If and you are holding fast the word..."

"...you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited , but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell,severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cutoff. " (Romans 11:20-22 NASB)

Yet another verse with eternal security in it.
"Stand" is in the perfect tense.The perfect tense is an intensive perfect, which conveys the idea of a present state resulting from a past action.This emphasizes the present state of being, the continuing result, the finished produce, and the fact that a thing is.
And yet again! why are you leaving out parts of the verse??......." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief.."

"22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach - 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard" (Romans 11:22-23 NASB)

Yet another verse with eternal security in it.
"Reconciled" Is in the aorist tense~~The aorist tense is culminative, viewing our reconciliation to God the Father as a single whole, but regarding it from the standpoint of its existing results—our transfer into a state of fellowship and harmony with God forever

And why are you not quoting the WHOLE verse? Colossians 1:22-23 NASB(not Romans)
22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.
Not all believers will receive a full reward. some might experience shame at the bema seat. IMO, shame will be felt by those that think Christ will not keep them saved, they moved away from the hope of the gospel that they have heard. They view salvation as their reward, and have rejected it as their free gift.
2 John 1:8~~New American Standard Bible
Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.

"23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:23-24 NASB)

I will admit these verses do not have eternal security in it. It is not speaking of salvation. It is speaking of fellowship with the Father.

"14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain. " (Philippians 2:14-16 NASB)

Some Children of God will not be light to the crooked and perverse generation. BUT~~

Once a child of God always a child of God:
Jn 1:12, “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name.”

Rom 8:16f, “The Spirit Himself testifies together with our( human) spirit that we are children of God.”

Rom 8:21, “Because the creation itself also shall be set free from the slavery to corruption and decay for the purpose of the freedom of the glory of the children of God.”

Eph 5:1, “Therefore, become imitators of your God, as beloved children.”

I decided I'm not going to be dishonest anymore about the scriptures. I'm done with the "it doesn't really say, or mean that" doctrines of the church. I would be a liar to tell people these scriptures don't really mean what they so plainly say.

What do these plainly say?

John 10:28~~New American Standard Bible
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Psalm 37:23–24 (NASB95)
23 The steps of a man are established by the Lord,

And He delights in his way.

24 When he falls, he will not be hurled headlong,

Because the Lord is the One who holds his hand.


For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39)

Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory blameless with great joy…” “To the only wise God our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory now and forever. Amen.” (Jude 24-25)

James 1:17 (NASB95)
17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.

Ephesians 2:8–9 (NASB95)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[Ricko]

Yet another verse with eternal security in it. And again, why are you leaving parts of the verse out?..............Unless you believed in vain

Is the person that believed in vain is saved?

 

[gr8grace3]

Is the person that believed in vain is saved?

If a person truly believes on the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation, is it ever in vain? No. He says believe, He will save.

If a person believes thoughtlessly, that is a different story. One Example:

Someone goes to church, gets baptized, gets their life cleaned up and does a lot of nice things in their Jesus professing church. They say Jesus,they pray Jesus and they do works for Jesus and count on this "stuff" to save them. They believed thoughtlessly. They did not believe that Christ died for them, and they did not rely on Him alone for their salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

Is the person that believed in vain is saved?

No. The Greek word for "in vain" is eikē
1) inconsiderably, without purpose, without just cause
2) in vain
2a) without success or effort

Basically, Paul is saying "unless you believed without reason or purpose".

Saving faith consists of 2 parts: the object and the purpose. The object must be the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God. The purpose must be eternal life.

So, saving faith is believing IN Jesus Christ FOR eternal life.

Those who believe that Jesus was a man who lived on the earth in Palestine about 2000 years ago aren't saved, because believing that isn't saving faith.

Those who believe IN Jesus FOR prosperity, etc aren't saved because that belief isn't saving faith.

When trusting or believing in Christ, one must have a purpose for their faith; what they are believing in Him FOR.

Without the specific purpose of obtaining eternal life, one's "faith" in Christ isn't saving. Period.

gr8grace3 gave an excellent illustration of what isn't saving faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yet another verse with eternal security in it.

Why did you leave the "but" out of the verse? That is an important part of the verse. This is a great eternal security verse. Christ is faithful, far greater than the servant Moses.
11It is a trustworthy statement:
For if(and we have) we died with Him, we will also live with Him;

12If(maybe we will,maybe we won't) we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him(our endurance), He also will deny us;.......deny us reign.

13If we are faithless(Walked away), He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.(Vs 11, we are in union/identified with Him in His life and death.)


Notice some translations say,"if indeed we hold fast..." This is the intensive use of the conditional conjunction. The writer is stating another condition(fact), not a conditional aspect of being a house. The writer was stating the fact that they were holding fast. "Since" is a better English word for the conditional conjunction"If" in this verse.

..."Since we hold fast our confidence.." The writer was stating the condition that the "holy Brothers" were living in.

Yet Another verse with eternal security in it.

"Have become" is in the perfect tense. The perfect tense emphasizes the continuing results of being partakers with Christ. Partakers forever.

Again, you will notice that some translations use,"If indeed." It again is the intensive use of the conditional conjunction. The writer was stating the condition(fact) that the Hebrew brothers were living in. "..Since we hold fast.."



Yet another verse with eternal security in it. And again, why are you leaving parts of the verse out?..............Unless you believed in vain

"stand" is in the perfect tense. The perfect tense is an intensive perfect, it emphasizes the continuing result of "Stand".....standing forever.
The perfect tense is an intensive perfect, which conveys the idea of a present state resulting from a past action. This emphasizes the present state of being, the continuing result, the finished produce, and the fact that a thing is.


"If" is the first class conditional clause......,"If and you are holding fast the word..."


Yet another verse with eternal security in it.
"Stand" is in the perfect tense.The perfect tense is an intensive perfect, which conveys the idea of a present state resulting from a past action.This emphasizes the present state of being, the continuing result, the finished produce, and the fact that a thing is.
And yet again! why are you leaving out parts of the verse??......." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief.."

Yet another verse with eternal security in it.
"Reconciled" Is in the aorist tense~~The aorist tense is culminative, viewing our reconciliation to God the Father as a single whole, but regarding it from the standpoint of its existing results—our transfer into a state of fellowship and harmony with God forever

And why are you not quoting the WHOLE verse? Colossians 1:22-23 NASB(not Romans)
22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.
Not all believers will receive a full reward. some might experience shame at the bema seat. IMO, shame will be felt by those that think Christ will not keep them saved, they moved away from the hope of the gospel that they have heard. They view salvation as their reward, and have rejected it as their free gift.
2 John 1:8~~New American Standard Bible
Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.



I will admit these verses do not have eternal security in it. It is not speaking of salvation. It is speaking of fellowship with the Father.

Some Children of God will not be light to the crooked and perverse generation. BUT~~

As I was saying, and which you are proving, the passages I shared have to be creatively interpreted and explained in order to derive OSAS out of them. Simply reading them for what they plainly say is not enough to get OSAS out of them.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That's not my position. The issue in those warning passages is about inheritance IN the kingdom, not about getting into the kingdom.

Problem. The Bible says those who practice sin won't be allowed in the kingdom:

"27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it" (Revelation 21:27 NASB)

But you say those who are unclean, and who practice abominations, and lie shall come into the kingdom as long as they once believed somewhere along the line. So you have wicked people, who at one time believed, being allowed into the kingdom while the Bible plainly says people who do wicked things are NOT allowed to come into the kingdom. Do we need more creative OSAS interpretation and explanation to make what John said not really mean what he said?

 

[Ricko]

Problem. The Bible says those who practice sin won't be allowed in the kingdom:

"27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it" (Revelation 21:27 NASB)

But you say those who are unclean, and who practice abominations, and lie shall come into the kingdom as long as they once believed somewhere along the line. So you have wicked people, who at one time believed, being allowed into the kingdom while the Bible plainly says people who do wicked things are NOT allowed to come into the kingdom. Do we need more creative OSAS interpretation and explanation to make what John said not really mean what he said?

It is my view that those are them that believed in vain. They were never really sons. They may have thought they were. The may have acted like it for some time, but they were not saved. That is why they could not enter the kingdom.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You cannot provide any Scripture that indicates that our Parent-child relationship can be severed. None

Besides what I've already shared, the following passage plainly shows us the believers in the Hebrew church--sanctified by the blood of Christ--being warned not to insult the Spirit of grace by trampling the Son of God underfoot and treating the blood as something unclean, or else suffer the punishment of God's enemies. Not the chastisement and loving discipline of the children of God in this age, but the punishment being reserved for the enemies of God:

"26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? " (Hebrews 10:26-29 NASB capitals in original)

Is this yet another passage of scripture that has to be explained and interpreted by OSAS so it does not really mean what it plainly says?